Despite how much sense the OP makes, there are still people trying to refute his point. Gamers need to stop settling for crappy games just because they have a big name behind them. Whether or not the game will be great in 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years is not the point, if it is not ready at launch, dont expect us to shell out 60 bucks and wait patiently for you patch the game up to an acceptable state.
And the only reason they get away with it is, there are far too many people willing to accept this nonsense, by defending it , just read some of the replies to this thread, One person who isnt on the payroll defending this crap is far to many, but it seems we have even more then that actually vocally defending this nonsense.
I think that's a bit naive though if you are suggesting fanbois are the reason why games are released early. Oh how I wish we had the much influence!
No--- the bottom line rests with the investors. They know when they sign up a game how much they are willing to pour into it. At somepoint, once development costs sky rockets and delays occur way too much you either pull the plug or push it out. Period
They know they're products ain't ready. They have in-house testers for peet's sake. They also test on a wide margin of computers. they have low specs and mid range and high specs
Time and time again guys THINK/
What happened to AoC? It got delayed again and again. Finally, FUNCOM pushed it out. Whole time testers said it wasn't ready. Has NDA been lifted for us closed testers to talk about that fiasco???
Vanguard. Think. What happened? It was canceled by Microsoft. Sony made them release.
You think the testers were all saying "RELEASE!!! RELEASE!"
Nooo. They ran out of money
Wizardry was spot on. It's cold hard $$$. Sure as customers we all have a say. But bottom line they just broke. Blizzard, is filthy rich. Always has been. They always been known to cancel something no matter how far along if the feel is wrong. Starcraft Ghost anyone?
It is the fans fault, because we buy the games. If aoc and war were both released, and all the people who have canceled allready wouldn't have even BOUGHT the game. Would any game dare to release similar to them?
It's our wallet thats encouraging this sort of gameplay.
Just because they run of money and can't finish developing(which is their fault, not us consumers) doesn't mean we can just accept it.
If a construction company was hired to build some houses, and the money given to them wasn't enough to actually finish building them. Would people move into these unfinished houses, and then pay the construction company to finish building after already buying the house?
No. Why should we accept it for mmorpgs?
At least someone understood without me having to explain it in detail.
I had a cool little analogy to go with mine too... it involved cars though.. i guess construction is just as good.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Despite how much sense the OP makes, there are still people trying to refute his point. Gamers need to stop settling for crappy games just because they have a big name behind them. Whether or not the game will be great in 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years is not the point, if it is not ready at launch, dont expect us to shell out 60 bucks and wait patiently for you patch the game up to an acceptable state.
And the only reason they get away with it is, there are far too many people willing to accept this nonsense, by defending it , just read some of the replies to this thread, One person who isnt on the payroll defending this crap is far to many, but it seems we have even more then that actually vocally defending this nonsense.
I think that's a bit naive though if you are suggesting fanbois are the reason why games are released early. Oh how I wish we had the much influence!
No--- the bottom line rests with the investors. They know when they sign up a game how much they are willing to pour into it. At somepoint, once development costs sky rockets and delays occur way too much you either pull the plug or push it out. Period
They know they're products ain't ready. They have in-house testers for peet's sake. They also test on a wide margin of computers. they have low specs and mid range and high specs
Time and time again guys THINK/
What happened to AoC? It got delayed again and again. Finally, FUNCOM pushed it out. Whole time testers said it wasn't ready. Has NDA been lifted for us closed testers to talk about that fiasco???
Vanguard. Think. What happened? It was canceled by Microsoft. Sony made them release.
You think the testers were all saying "RELEASE!!! RELEASE!"
Nooo. They ran out of money
Wizardry was spot on. It's cold hard $$$. Sure as customers we all have a say. But bottom line they just broke. Blizzard, is filthy rich. Always has been. They always been known to cancel something no matter how far along if the feel is wrong. Starcraft Ghost anyone?
It is the fans fault, because we buy the games. If aoc and war were both released, and all the people who have canceled allready wouldn't have even BOUGHT the game. Would any game dare to release similar to them?
It's our wallet thats encouraging this sort of gameplay.
Just because they run of money and can't finish developing(which is their fault, not us consumers) doesn't mean we can just accept it.
If a construction company was hired to build some houses, and the money given to them wasn't enough to actually finish building them. Would people move into these unfinished houses, and then pay the construction company to finish building after already buying the house?
No. Why should we accept it for mmorpgs?
Nothing is wrong with giving the game a chance if you have the cash to burn. MMO Developers rarely makeup for development costs from shelf sales alone. Look at Tabula Rasa for instance
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70.
WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70. WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
People need to realize that a game that allows a 6 year old and a 50 year old to find enjoyment is a good game.
MMOs are supposed to host thousands of players, its not supposed to be some esoteric DnD Cult where only certain sects of society find enjoyment in them.
If it flurishes because it is easy it prooves most gamers choose the easy option when they are setting their difficulty, WoW also has hardmode but most people who say WoW is easy mode have never actually played an heroic dungeon, or a full fledged raid.
My favorite game is actually lineage 2, but most people dont play it because it is ridiculously hard, with very little hand holding, like most korean games.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70. WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70. WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70. WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx People need to realize that a game that allows a 6 year old and a 50 year old to find enjoyment is a good game.
You sound like the kind of guy that enjoys checkers to chess. Infinitely less thought and intelligence required, but hey, its accessible to more people, so it must be the better game.
Its interesting to see you supporting the dumbing down of rpgs, I seem to recall you once having a blog opposing that philosophy. I could be confusing you with someone else though.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70. WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
Wrong. T1 ships can be fully insured. Additionally, I used to make more then enough to cover losses within 5 minutes of trading, literally.
Lastly, worst come to worst, players can legally trade GTCs for ISK.
EVE quite frankly has no timesinks that are forced on the casual player.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx People need to realize that a game that allows a 6 year old and a 50 year old to find enjoyment is a good game.
You sound like the kind of guy that enjoys checkers to chess. Infinitely less thought and intelligence required, but hey, its accessible to more people, so it must be the better game.
Its interesting to see you supporting the dumbing down of rpgs, I seem to recall you once having a blog opposing that philosophy. I could be confusing you with someone else though.
This isn't going to turn into a omigosh sandbox are 4 the smart. Game needs to be super hard and needlessly complicated or it for noob, i too super leet for dat.
This isn't going to turn into a omigosh sandbox are 4 the smart. Game needs to be super hard and needlessly complicated or it for noob, i too super leet for dat.
Take it to another thread. This isn't about that.
{ Mod Edit }
Where did I say anything about sandbox? The only options in your limited tunnel vision are super kiddie easy mode, or sandbox? Let me guess, you saw my signiture line and went into insult mode because I'm looking for a different kind of game than you are.
What is your thread about, exactly? A big long whine about how developers didn't design a game like you wanted so you are going to throw a hissy fit? That you are the only one that gets to dictate how things should be in the mmorpg industry? Worthless trash that isn't worth responding to. Little more than troll filth, from someone with a history of it. When youve got something worth discussing, let us know.
{ Mod Edit }
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70. WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
Wrong,the only reason it's hard is there's always a consequence to everything you do.In a game such as WAR there's no consequence to any idiotic action I may do because dying has no consequence.That's why a lot of players just run to the enemy's Warband like a stupid bull and got toasted.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70. WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
Please before you reply to a post ask your mommy or daddy to read it first then if they agree to it then hit post till then please don't post or reply, and if you really really have to, don't post a reply like this, it's embarrassing and makes most people want to kill you.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx People need to realize that a game that allows a 6 year old and a 50 year old to find enjoyment is a good game.
You sound like the kind of guy that enjoys checkers to chess. Infinitely less thought and intelligence required, but hey, its accessible to more people, so it must be the better game.
Its interesting to see you supporting the dumbing down of rpgs, I seem to recall you once having a blog opposing that philosophy. I could be confusing you with someone else though.
Sounds like you are plying checkers here, if you knew anything about business you would know it is an elaborate game of chess.
MMOs are about making money, the way to make money is to have a wider market not a smaller one, thus a game that appeases both young and old is a good game, why am i explaining this, why am i explaining more players = good.
I am not supporting dumbing down RPGs, i am advocating the ability to have all the options availible, which is what WoW does, which is what i was pointing out, the game has an easy mode, it also has a decent challenge for those people who want it, and while i dont find raiding to be difficult there are far more people who do, there for it holds them.
If you read my blog, you would know my position hasnt changed.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70. WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
Wrong,the only reason it's hard is there's always a consequence to everything you do.In a game such as WAR there's no consequence to any idiotic action I may do because dying has no consequence.That's why a lot of players just run to the enemy's Warband like a stupid bull and got toasted.
Here's the thing, that doesn't make the game harder. Look I play many genre of games, go play left 4 dead on expert difficulty for example, go through every campaign, and then tell me with a straight face, that Eve is hard.
A game doesn't have to beat you across the face for losing to be difficult. It simply has to be hard to win. And saying that, WoW arena is pretty hard, even though it's mocked as a grind, very few teams ever reach the top bracket, people use excuses such as gear, class comps, but its mainly about skill. if you aren't good you aren't going to 2200.
You people have a sorta misconception, that for something to have value, you have to always be risking something. And this is something limited to your type of gamer. It's not wrong or right(even though you'll say it's right). My omigoshwtfbbq post was merely sarcasm to state how silly it is to call EVE or any of these games "hard" just because of the penalty.
Being hard and being punishing are not always hand in hand.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx I am not supporting dumbing down RPGs, i am advocating the ability to have all the options availible, which is what WoW does, which is what i was pointing out, the game has an easy mode, it also has a decent challenge for those people who want it, and while i dont find raiding to be difficult there are far more people who do, there for it holds them. If you read my blog, you would know my position hasnt changed.
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70. WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
Wrong,the only reason it's hard is there's always a consequence to everything you do.In a game such as WAR there's no consequence to any idiotic action I may do because dying has no consequence.That's why a lot of players just run to the enemy's Warband like a stupid bull and got toasted.
Here's the thing, that doesn't make the game harder. Look I play many genre of games, go play left 4 dead on expert difficulty for example, go through every campaign, and then tell me with a straight face, that Eve is hard.
A game doesn't have to beat you across the face for losing to be difficult. It simply has to be hard to win. And saying that, WoW arena is pretty hard, even though it's mocked as a grind, very few teams ever reach the top bracket, people use excuses such as gear, class comps, but its mainly about skill. if you aren't good you aren't going to 2200.
You people have a sorta misconception, that for something to have value, you have to always be risking something. And this is something limited to your type of gamer. It's not wrong or right(even though you'll say it's right). My omigoshwtfbbq post was merely sarcasm to state how silly it is to call EVE or any of these games "hard" just because of the penalty.
Being hard and being punishing are not always hand in hand.
Go play EVE then come back.
The learning curve for EVE Online is incredibly high. Without the tutorials I think most people would just drift in space, unable to figure out how to warp to a station. Let alone purchase equipment for their ship
Compare that to WAR. I know I didnt need any tutorials. Same with WoW.
Bladin really gets pissy when it comes to sandbox games, and it is that fact that doesn't allow him to understand why people try to explain how certain aspects of sandbox games make for a more challenging experience.
Being held accountable for your actions makes the game harder. It is as simple as that. But that is just one of the many reasons why EVE and games like it are harder than the WoWs and the WARs of the genre.
EVE has a huge learning curve, and it puts the themepark easymode games to shame. Hell even the economy of EVE is more challenging than all of WoW imo. The different ways to fit your ship, combinations of ships, but most importantly flying your ship accordingly and your team work skills actually present a challenge vs the target/lock and spam 1 key pvp of WoW (and the pve, especially today, itsnt much more difficult).
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx I am not supporting dumbing down RPGs, i am advocating the ability to have all the options availible, which is what WoW does, which is what i was pointing out, the game has an easy mode, it also has a decent challenge for those people who want it, and while i dont find raiding to be difficult there are far more people who do, there for it holds them. If you read my blog, you would know my position hasnt changed.
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx I am not supporting dumbing down RPGs, i am advocating the ability to have all the options availible, which is what WoW does, which is what i was pointing out, the game has an easy mode, it also has a decent challenge for those people who want it, and while i dont find raiding to be difficult there are far more people who do, there for it holds them. If you read my blog, you would know my position hasnt changed.
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.
No they don't. They just need to focus on their niches and do it well like EVE/CCP. This way you can be profitable with a small team. I don't want to play a 100% PVE focused MMO but I bet someone reading this would go nuts for that
But I disagree with the guy above me on one thing I think your blogs are great, great reads.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx I am not supporting dumbing down RPGs, i am advocating the ability to have all the options availible, which is what WoW does, which is what i was pointing out, the game has an easy mode, it also has a decent challenge for those people who want it, and while i dont find raiding to be difficult there are far more people who do, there for it holds them. If you read my blog, you would know my position hasnt changed.
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.
No they don't. They just need to focus on their niches and do it well like EVE/CCP. This way you can be profitable with a small team. I don't want to play a 100% PVE focused MMO but I bet someone reading this would go nuts for that
But I disagree with the guy above me on one thing I think your blogs are great, great reads.
Think I commented on the Huxley one awhile back.
I agree that more MMO's need to focus on specific niche markets. No MMO out there can cater to all playstyles not even WoW and it would be foolish to try to. Once a company tries to cater to all playstyles the end result becomes watered down. The reason being the majority of the costumers will dictate what is the most accepted way to play the game and any good developer will atleast cater to that.
Look at EVE, it is a prime example of niche market and it is a success because of it. EVE does not look remotely like any other MMO on the market and they cater to their customers needs. They can atleast stand out from the herd of clones and provide content that no other MMO currently provides. I do not play EVE myself because it does not suit me, but I applaud them for being different and more focused.
This topic is in regards to the fanbois on this forum. We aren't new to online gaming, mmorpgs aren't new and unique. We don't have to deal with your crappy release anymore. Yet the excuse that people still use "It's release, give it time to polish. The other games weren't polished at release either" Simply doesn't fly, and it's been proven OVER AND OVER. Yet the fans still use it. If you release a mmo, you have to be ready to go. You have to be able to stand against the current mmo titans. If you release space game you have to compete vs EVE, if you release a leveling quester, you have to compete with WoW. If you release a PvP centric game, you have to compete with the pvp aspect of current mmos. Not to just be something different, but vastly inferior(AoC and WAR). And then hope to be able to compete with the main games in a few years. Because in a few years, those games you might be FINALLY catching up to, have already moved ahead into bigger and better territory. Why would anyone settle for a poorly released game, when they have the option to play ones which have already established themselves? They wouldn't. And us as gamers need to realize this, and stop letting developers believe this. Halfway through development, a developer should have a clear idea of how much they will truely be able to get done by release. The problem is they still TRY to get too much in. And nothing is truely remarkable and nothing really makes it stand out.
Give it a few months? Maybe for some bugs Give it a few years? Maybe to get extra content to last me after i experience the content in game for those years
Sorry, but there is no excuse for mmos to not come out on day 1 swinging. If it's a buggy unbalanced, contentless, empty mess, then there is no excuse, the game simply isn't very good. And it will die. AoC and WAR both suffered the same fate, high box sales, TERRIBLE retention. Tabula Rasa is going down in flames, HGL is going down. AA died, AC2 died. Vanguard, and MxO both would have died without SOE's life support. Then theres the few which are still clinging onto hope but never really amounted to anything, PotBS, ryzom, shadowbane, swg, ww2o.
theres really no problem here as i see it. Vote with your wallet if you don't like the game, but due remember people are different and have different tastes, and different tolerance levels. (some people like seafood some hate it) You picked WAR as a game that should never have been released. Personally i have guild mates that have been playing it since release and still enjoy it and haven't bitched at all. (Guess they and you have different standards/tastes)
If we and the companies lived by your standards their would not have been one MMO released since what WoW? Dev "Oh dang we're 90% done the games pretty good but not quiet finished but theres no budget left, guess well just trash it." Basically rather then letting people have the choice/option your asking everyone to adhere to your standards and create some kind of MMO barren wasteland. I honestly doubt Blizzard would have even attempted WoW if they had been contractually obligated to produce 100% prefect MMO on first attempt. Others have already pointed out that while WoW had polish it too had problems and was no where near ready for the surplus of players in originally gathered.
MMO's mirror nature and life to a certain extent. few are truelly ready or completely prepared for challenges we face, there will be many experiments some better some worse. In the end the stronge will survive and the weak won't.
Vote with your wallet and allow others the same choice, don't try and force your views/opinions/standards on everyone else and you'll probably be alot happier.
Fanbois and Trolls are just 2 sides of the same coin you'll never get ride of all of either. Call it a strange quirk of human nature.
Comments
I think that's a bit naive though if you are suggesting fanbois are the reason why games are released early. Oh how I wish we had the much influence!
No--- the bottom line rests with the investors. They know when they sign up a game how much they are willing to pour into it. At somepoint, once development costs sky rockets and delays occur way too much you either pull the plug or push it out. Period
They know they're products ain't ready. They have in-house testers for peet's sake. They also test on a wide margin of computers. they have low specs and mid range and high specs
Time and time again guys THINK/
What happened to AoC? It got delayed again and again. Finally, FUNCOM pushed it out. Whole time testers said it wasn't ready. Has NDA been lifted for us closed testers to talk about that fiasco???
Vanguard. Think. What happened? It was canceled by Microsoft. Sony made them release.
You think the testers were all saying "RELEASE!!! RELEASE!"
Nooo. They ran out of money
Wizardry was spot on. It's cold hard $$$. Sure as customers we all have a say. But bottom line they just broke. Blizzard, is filthy rich. Always has been. They always been known to cancel something no matter how far along if the feel is wrong. Starcraft Ghost anyone?
It is the fans fault, because we buy the games. If aoc and war were both released, and all the people who have canceled allready wouldn't have even BOUGHT the game. Would any game dare to release similar to them?
It's our wallet thats encouraging this sort of gameplay.
Just because they run of money and can't finish developing(which is their fault, not us consumers) doesn't mean we can just accept it.
If a construction company was hired to build some houses, and the money given to them wasn't enough to actually finish building them. Would people move into these unfinished houses, and then pay the construction company to finish building after already buying the house?
No. Why should we accept it for mmorpgs?
At least someone understood without me having to explain it in detail.
I had a cool little analogy to go with mine too... it involved cars though.. i guess construction is just as good.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I think that's a bit naive though if you are suggesting fanbois are the reason why games are released early. Oh how I wish we had the much influence!
No--- the bottom line rests with the investors. They know when they sign up a game how much they are willing to pour into it. At somepoint, once development costs sky rockets and delays occur way too much you either pull the plug or push it out. Period
They know they're products ain't ready. They have in-house testers for peet's sake. They also test on a wide margin of computers. they have low specs and mid range and high specs
Time and time again guys THINK/
What happened to AoC? It got delayed again and again. Finally, FUNCOM pushed it out. Whole time testers said it wasn't ready. Has NDA been lifted for us closed testers to talk about that fiasco???
Vanguard. Think. What happened? It was canceled by Microsoft. Sony made them release.
You think the testers were all saying "RELEASE!!! RELEASE!"
Nooo. They ran out of money
Wizardry was spot on. It's cold hard $$$. Sure as customers we all have a say. But bottom line they just broke. Blizzard, is filthy rich. Always has been. They always been known to cancel something no matter how far along if the feel is wrong. Starcraft Ghost anyone?
It is the fans fault, because we buy the games. If aoc and war were both released, and all the people who have canceled allready wouldn't have even BOUGHT the game. Would any game dare to release similar to them?
It's our wallet thats encouraging this sort of gameplay.
Just because they run of money and can't finish developing(which is their fault, not us consumers) doesn't mean we can just accept it.
If a construction company was hired to build some houses, and the money given to them wasn't enough to actually finish building them. Would people move into these unfinished houses, and then pay the construction company to finish building after already buying the house?
No. Why should we accept it for mmorpgs?
Nothing is wrong with giving the game a chance if you have the cash to burn. MMO Developers rarely makeup for development costs from shelf sales alone. Look at Tabula Rasa for instance
Yes, the ASIAN mmo market was thriving, but us here at mmorpg don't really care about lineage or lineage 2 and it's grinders.
Why do you think the bar on the left is almost exclusively western mmos
Everyone knows that WoW is the Fisher Price of MMO's hell I have read articles about 6 year olds that can barely read making it to 70.
WoW doesn't florish because its good but because its easy, most other mmo's you have to really work at and that is where they fail, once someone makes a game thats eaiser than WoW to play then that game will take the title of most players, which doesn't mean best game just most popular.
People need to realize that a game that allows a 6 year old and a 50 year old to find enjoyment is a good game.
MMOs are supposed to host thousands of players, its not supposed to be some esoteric DnD Cult where only certain sects of society find enjoyment in them.
If it flurishes because it is easy it prooves most gamers choose the easy option when they are setting their difficulty, WoW also has hardmode but most people who say WoW is easy mode have never actually played an heroic dungeon, or a full fledged raid.
My favorite game is actually lineage 2, but most people dont play it because it is ridiculously hard, with very little hand holding, like most korean games.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
You sound like the kind of guy that enjoys checkers to chess. Infinitely less thought and intelligence required, but hey, its accessible to more people, so it must be the better game.
Its interesting to see you supporting the dumbing down of rpgs, I seem to recall you once having a blog opposing that philosophy. I could be confusing you with someone else though.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
Wrong. T1 ships can be fully insured. Additionally, I used to make more then enough to cover losses within 5 minutes of trading, literally.
Lastly, worst come to worst, players can legally trade GTCs for ISK.
EVE quite frankly has no timesinks that are forced on the casual player.
You sound like the kind of guy that enjoys checkers to chess. Infinitely less thought and intelligence required, but hey, its accessible to more people, so it must be the better game.
Its interesting to see you supporting the dumbing down of rpgs, I seem to recall you once having a blog opposing that philosophy. I could be confusing you with someone else though.
This isn't going to turn into a omigosh sandbox are 4 the smart. Game needs to be super hard and needlessly complicated or it for noob, i too super leet for dat.
Take it to another thread. This isn't about that.
{ Mod Edit }
Where did I say anything about sandbox? The only options in your limited tunnel vision are super kiddie easy mode, or sandbox? Let me guess, you saw my signiture line and went into insult mode because I'm looking for a different kind of game than you are.
What is your thread about, exactly? A big long whine about how developers didn't design a game like you wanted so you are going to throw a hissy fit? That you are the only one that gets to dictate how things should be in the mmorpg industry? Worthless trash that isn't worth responding to. Little more than troll filth, from someone with a history of it. When youve got something worth discussing, let us know.
{ Mod Edit }
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
Wrong,the only reason it's hard is there's always a consequence to everything you do.In a game such as WAR there's no consequence to any idiotic action I may do because dying has no consequence.That's why a lot of players just run to the enemy's Warband like a stupid bull and got toasted.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
Please before you reply to a post ask your mommy or daddy to read it first then if they agree to it then hit post till then please don't post or reply, and if you really really have to, don't post a reply like this, it's embarrassing and makes most people want to kill you.
You sound like the kind of guy that enjoys checkers to chess. Infinitely less thought and intelligence required, but hey, its accessible to more people, so it must be the better game.
Its interesting to see you supporting the dumbing down of rpgs, I seem to recall you once having a blog opposing that philosophy. I could be confusing you with someone else though.
Sounds like you are plying checkers here, if you knew anything about business you would know it is an elaborate game of chess.
MMOs are about making money, the way to make money is to have a wider market not a smaller one, thus a game that appeases both young and old is a good game, why am i explaining this, why am i explaining more players = good.
I am not supporting dumbing down RPGs, i am advocating the ability to have all the options availible, which is what WoW does, which is what i was pointing out, the game has an easy mode, it also has a decent challenge for those people who want it, and while i dont find raiding to be difficult there are far more people who do, there for it holds them.
If you read my blog, you would know my position hasnt changed.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
Wrong,the only reason it's hard is there's always a consequence to everything you do.In a game such as WAR there's no consequence to any idiotic action I may do because dying has no consequence.That's why a lot of players just run to the enemy's Warband like a stupid bull and got toasted.
Here's the thing, that doesn't make the game harder. Look I play many genre of games, go play left 4 dead on expert difficulty for example, go through every campaign, and then tell me with a straight face, that Eve is hard.
A game doesn't have to beat you across the face for losing to be difficult. It simply has to be hard to win. And saying that, WoW arena is pretty hard, even though it's mocked as a grind, very few teams ever reach the top bracket, people use excuses such as gear, class comps, but its mainly about skill. if you aren't good you aren't going to 2200.
You people have a sorta misconception, that for something to have value, you have to always be risking something. And this is something limited to your type of gamer. It's not wrong or right(even though you'll say it's right). My omigoshwtfbbq post was merely sarcasm to state how silly it is to call EVE or any of these games "hard" just because of the penalty.
Being hard and being punishing are not always hand in hand.
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Yes, the ASIAN mmo market was thriving, but us here at mmorpg don't really care about lineage or lineage 2 and it's grinders.
Why do you think the bar on the left is almost exclusively western mmos
I thought we were talking about MMORPG market altogether? No publisher thinks about just one region. They think globally.
Not to mention Runescape which has often topped the charts here in the U.S. as well.
Name me a game that is hard due to a challenge, rather than hard due to time sinks and poor design?
Wait.. there isn't any! omigoshwtfbbq.
EVE Online.
the only reason eve is hard is because you have to grind up gold everytime you die. It's no more challenging to actually "play" then any other mmo. If in wow, once your gear broke it was gone, and you couldnt repair. The game would be "super hardcore".
Wrong,the only reason it's hard is there's always a consequence to everything you do.In a game such as WAR there's no consequence to any idiotic action I may do because dying has no consequence.That's why a lot of players just run to the enemy's Warband like a stupid bull and got toasted.
Here's the thing, that doesn't make the game harder. Look I play many genre of games, go play left 4 dead on expert difficulty for example, go through every campaign, and then tell me with a straight face, that Eve is hard.
A game doesn't have to beat you across the face for losing to be difficult. It simply has to be hard to win. And saying that, WoW arena is pretty hard, even though it's mocked as a grind, very few teams ever reach the top bracket, people use excuses such as gear, class comps, but its mainly about skill. if you aren't good you aren't going to 2200.
You people have a sorta misconception, that for something to have value, you have to always be risking something. And this is something limited to your type of gamer. It's not wrong or right(even though you'll say it's right). My omigoshwtfbbq post was merely sarcasm to state how silly it is to call EVE or any of these games "hard" just because of the penalty.
Being hard and being punishing are not always hand in hand.
Go play EVE then come back.
The learning curve for EVE Online is incredibly high. Without the tutorials I think most people would just drift in space, unable to figure out how to warp to a station. Let alone purchase equipment for their ship
Compare that to WAR. I know I didnt need any tutorials. Same with WoW.
No one is calling it hard just for the penalty
Bladin really gets pissy when it comes to sandbox games, and it is that fact that doesn't allow him to understand why people try to explain how certain aspects of sandbox games make for a more challenging experience.
Being held accountable for your actions makes the game harder. It is as simple as that. But that is just one of the many reasons why EVE and games like it are harder than the WoWs and the WARs of the genre.
EVE has a huge learning curve, and it puts the themepark easymode games to shame. Hell even the economy of EVE is more challenging than all of WoW imo. The different ways to fit your ship, combinations of ships, but most importantly flying your ship accordingly and your team work skills actually present a challenge vs the target/lock and spam 1 key pvp of WoW (and the pve, especially today, itsnt much more difficult).
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.
No they don't. They just need to focus on their niches and do it well like EVE/CCP. This way you can be profitable with a small team. I don't want to play a 100% PVE focused MMO but I bet someone reading this would go nuts for that
But I disagree with the guy above me on one thing I think your blogs are great, great reads.
Think I commented on the Huxley one awhile back.
An MMO game has never kept me for long, But MMORPG games have kept me for a very long time.
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.
No they don't. They just need to focus on their niches and do it well like EVE/CCP. This way you can be profitable with a small team. I don't want to play a 100% PVE focused MMO but I bet someone reading this would go nuts for that
But I disagree with the guy above me on one thing I think your blogs are great, great reads.
Think I commented on the Huxley one awhile back.
I agree that more MMO's need to focus on specific niche markets. No MMO out there can cater to all playstyles not even WoW and it would be foolish to try to. Once a company tries to cater to all playstyles the end result becomes watered down. The reason being the majority of the costumers will dictate what is the most accepted way to play the game and any good developer will atleast cater to that.
Look at EVE, it is a prime example of niche market and it is a success because of it. EVE does not look remotely like any other MMO on the market and they cater to their customers needs. They can atleast stand out from the herd of clones and provide content that no other MMO currently provides. I do not play EVE myself because it does not suit me, but I applaud them for being different and more focused.
theres really no problem here as i see it. Vote with your wallet if you don't like the game, but due remember people are different and have different tastes, and different tolerance levels. (some people like seafood some hate it) You picked WAR as a game that should never have been released. Personally i have guild mates that have been playing it since release and still enjoy it and haven't bitched at all. (Guess they and you have different standards/tastes)
If we and the companies lived by your standards their would not have been one MMO released since what WoW? Dev "Oh dang we're 90% done the games pretty good but not quiet finished but theres no budget left, guess well just trash it." Basically rather then letting people have the choice/option your asking everyone to adhere to your standards and create some kind of MMO barren wasteland. I honestly doubt Blizzard would have even attempted WoW if they had been contractually obligated to produce 100% prefect MMO on first attempt. Others have already pointed out that while WoW had polish it too had problems and was no where near ready for the surplus of players in originally gathered.
MMO's mirror nature and life to a certain extent. few are truelly ready or completely prepared for challenges we face, there will be many experiments some better some worse. In the end the stronge will survive and the weak won't.
Vote with your wallet and allow others the same choice, don't try and force your views/opinions/standards on everyone else and you'll probably be alot happier.
Fanbois and Trolls are just 2 sides of the same coin you'll never get ride of all of either. Call it a strange quirk of human nature.