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This Editorial explains exactly what I think is wrong with Warhammer.
fungistratus
Member Posts: 437
This article really hits the nail on the head about the game.
I played in closed beta and there was hardly anyone grinding scenarios, it was all spontaneous PQ's and lots of communication and grouping.
Now it's a ghost town at lvl 20. I refuse to play until the day i log into skull throne and find a group in the badlands, let alone more that 10 people in the zone.
I dont know how Mythic is going to fix this (NERF Scenario XP Gain) or make PvE gear rewards better than PvP, not just PQ's give all PvE content love.
NOt only that -- how about some Epic Quest lInes or HIdden Quests? I haven't completed a quest line in the game that WASNT a PQ that gave me a blue or better. How about class quests that lead to a great item instead of rewarding you with a potion and XP pat-on-the-back?
There needs to be a draw in the community to go after the PvE content. I think in closed beta everyone did it because they knew there wasn't a point in leveling, as cap was at 20.
I either need to switch servers or cancel sub till this game gets everything worked out. I would hate to see another TR, another game I followed closely and closed beta tested ( I hope I am not bad Luck).
Comments
Good article, thanks for posting it.
Being on a better populated server really does make a difference, but even then there still seems to be too many people that are just scenario grinding.
I think most of the required game elements are there, but as the article suggests many people either don't really notice or just go for the easy option of queuing for scenarios all the time.
It's still early days yet though & provided they don't take too long about it, there is still time for Mythic to find the right balance. Every other MMO I have played has changed a hell of a lot in the first six months after release, so I guess the old saying about "The best laid plans of Mice & Men" is true once again.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Take the Hecatomb? TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Not a very good artical really you can't really blame the players for the problems the games faceing, the players simply went where the most fun and rewards are which just happens to be scenario's pre T4.
I think you missed the point mate, theyre not blaming the players per se - they actually recognise thats its game design flaw by not logically pointing the players to content that is being overlooked
Have to agree with it and OP's comments - im dreadfully bored already which really pains me as warhammer has been part of my life for so long i hate to think of it putting its name next to what ultimately is going to be a failure
Greatness is difficult to appreciate from close up. The great mountain on the horizon is only the ground when you are standing on it.
I pretty much agree with the post.
I particularly like how the writer correctly identified the core issue - while players ARE playing wrongly, it is ultimately Mythic's fault in failing to show them clearly enough how to play correctly.
I've been shouted down many times on these boards that I'm blaming players for not playing the game as it should be played. I'm not saying that the game isn't to blame... just that with some more incentive and imaginativeness they could have much much more fun. (stop q-ing for that damn scenario, join a PQ group and suggest "hey lets take a few BOs and a keep for a change?" - when you take a few some enemies are bound to notice and start harassing your band... and voilla - there's your open RvR starting to roll.)
Sadly a lot of people are not ready for that kind of taking things into their own hands and fully expect the game to lead them by their noses. I blame WoW for that - if WAR released 5 years ago we'd have no such problems whatsoever - mmos were played exactly for this open-endedness and freedom to do your own thing and take initiative. Today it's a different matter - most players fully expect to be led by the hand step by step through the game with easy-to-read signs on the way. If they don't see those signs flashing in bright neon they automatically assume that there is nothing there. If it's not advertised it simply doesn't exit for them.
It's even worse. It just takes one Realm on a server to completely screw it up.
On my EU server, Burlok, we on Order side WANT to do oRvR!
I can get a full WB together within my alliance in no time.
Problem is, that Destruction is hidden and doesn't come out.
They are just busy grinding Scenarios and sertain dungeons and don't give a toss about oRvR!
Our whole Tier3 maps have been blue for over 2 weeks now. It's sad!
I hardly login anymore lately because of this, as I've grown bored and tired of scenarios.
Cheers
I think there are some truths in it, but also a part the author didnt realize.
One of the biggest oddities you notice as a MMO vet when entering WAR is the almost complete and utter silence in the chat channels. Now you may tell me whatever you like about the reasons, but for me it indicates something is massively wrong in this game. Period.
One thing sure is the chat system isnt really well designed. You cant set region channels like guild and group, you always have to type /1 and it isnt really highlighted, so I am sure there are many MMO noobs who just dont know.
Second, I am still deeply convinced the overdid the "helping hands" idea. Open groups, PQ's, the entire lot of things which make it "easy" to find something to do totally takes away the need to cooperate, to talk, to go to a public channel and ask anything. WAR holds you hand - but way to firmly. People just dont feel motivated to really explore the wilderness or to communicate. Its a well managed entertainment park where you are meticiously led from entertainment highlight A to highlight B asf. With such a tigh hand holding ppl just have no sense for making things by themselves, taking the initiative.
There is no reason to roam free and no real reward for doing so. People are led. They meant well, but sometimes good intentions still lead to bad results.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I disagree with the whole concept that players are to blame for playing the game wrong. The game is designed wrong to encourage this type of play. It doesn't reward properly, it doesn't give proper tools to build community or team work, it discourages just about every aspect that builds proper team and community based play.
Yes this game needs team play, lots of players working towards a realm goal and things of that nature. However almost every mechanic in the games promotes individual solo based efforts and removes the need to communicate with other players. The design of the game is flawed and players reactions to those designs in the result, not the cause. The tools given to the players encourage exactly what needs to happen to make this a healthy game. The community that is needed in the game never developed as a result of Mythics choice to not include important tools to allow players to build that community. No zone chat, no forums, everything revolving around individual, no reason to defend and no real "ownership" of contested areas.
Would the game be more fun if people did the group based activities, maybe. Does the games design encourage that type of play, no. Almost every aspect of the game rewards based on individual contribution which often isn't gained by doing activites that benefit the team.
Everything to me screams that people are not interacting with certain portions of the games as a result of the games designs or lack of fun factor and not because they are playing the game wrong. Sure the game is intended to have a certain flow in concept, but if that flow doesn't work properly due to design flaws why blame the players.
For example this blogger points out that lairs are being ignored or some other nonsense. Well he doesn't mention that many lairs are bugged and don't work. Many lair bosses don't even have a loot table to reward people beating them. On top of that they are pretty easy by most accounts of people rolling through many of them in under an hour or so. Game design or players playing the game wrong?
At the end of the day if the game was fun people would be doing those activities. If they aren't doing those things then something is wrong and maybe it isn't the players.
The problem I have with posts/articles like these is that for people who are in well orginized guilds, like myself, a lot of these claims are wrong. I can get a PQ, BO, Keep, Scen group anytime I need and there is plenty of chat in both guild and alliance chat. I also talk to many people over region chat depending on the situation especially if they arn't in our alliance.
So I definatly blame the people if other servers are having this problem, the game just needs more good guilds.
Enjoy : )
Players and players' attitudes only gets you so far in explaining the problem. MMOs are based around a single principle: people will follow where the rewards are. That is, people will do what the game rewards most consistently and well over a given increment of time. People will *always* find what this activity is, and do it. This is not only the case in WAR, it's the case in every MMO. If an activity under-rewards compared to other activities, it will be underplayed, and the activity which consistently rewards better will be played to beat the band.
It isn't the players who decided to make scenarios by far the most consistent reward over time in the game. That was Mythic's design. It wasn't the players who designed PQs and their reward system such that one is better off grinding PQ mobs solo in terms of reaching the max reward fastest. That, again, was Mythic's design. Now I think we can probably speculate that neither of these things is "working as intended", but it's not "working as intended" because the design is cocked up -- the players have simply found the best ways to get the rewards they want given the current design of the game.
Mythic's big problem right now is that they can buff oRvR all they like, they won't get people out of scenarios. Why is this? Because scenarios offer more consistent rewards over time due to the timed fights, guaranteed action, relatively balanced sides and the like. oRvR can never really compete with that. It was a design error to place so much reward in scenarios, and I think Mythic realizes that now, but they can't take away from the scenario rewards without losing all the players who like to run scenarios -- and in light of the dwindling population of the game, they don't want to do that. So the design problem persists and is gnawing away at the game. It's easier to blame the players, but honestly all the players are doing is following where the rewards are most easily obtained -- and they didn't make the game that way, Mythic did.
My reply to this is obviously not about every war player but it will sound it.
Of course its the players. Mythic layed out scenario's the way they are for the casual players. Those of us who may only have 20-30 mins to play sometimes.
The problem was the players. To say any diffrent means you have no concept of the genre today. People are lazy, want everything fast and handed to them. I play scenario's because I find them fun, when I am not up for it I may try to find a pq or even do quests, but I hate PVE.
While I wait for scenario's to pop I ORvR., cause I like pvp. These people you see at warcamps, there lazy players. No sense of adventure, or he thrill of the hunt. Thats the problem, gamers are getting lazy. So yeah, I will blame the player base. Everyone can. Mythic gave the options for everybody, people chose there route.
I seen so many people come on here and just complain about not having groups for PQ's. It ridiculus the amount of posters and articles about this. IF there was soooooo many people having this probelm, how could that same mentality shared by so many people, not correct this. It makes no sense. 5-6 people can run alot of the pq's.
So yeah, the people who complained about no pq groups quit, they did nothing to get it moving. I believe this because of all the bad publicity this part of the game got, and yet no players tried to make the change themselves. i.e message people on these forums something like hey, whats your in game name we can get together and do something. No they didn't why because Mythic didn't give it to them on a silver platter.
But whatever, those who quit and will not come back, goodbye, those on the fence, jump right in. Those waiting on coming back, don't wait to long or the beginning tiers will be just lvl 10,11,20,21 alts for scenario fun. So yeah, its the players. Always will be.
Enjoy : )
I think this article better explains it, but then again I might be biased....
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All games I have played, I have found the same thing, game starts up players level up and out of the newbie zones leaving them barren, with only a few people about, the majority of players end up at the high end of the game playing there, this is every game I have played EQ, EQ2, WoW, LotR, Vanguard, and WAR.
its just the way the games are, unless they put a lower cap on the games so that more stay lower then you will always see this see saw effect.
Exception to this rule is when they bring out a new race/class that has to start from 1st then you see a small population swing to the newbie zones, that quickly moves to the higher zones.
Its not a games fault per say, but a design fault in almost all games, until someone can make a game that breaks this mold then we are doom to live with it.
I have to agree entirely. I have played all the big ones: EQ, EQ2, WOW, Vanguard, SWG; DAOC; Anarchy Online, EVE, Guild Wars, LOTRO.
There is an initial reason for grinding the scenarios from level one: Equipment. I have never really been a PvP player, but in Warhammer it became a neccessity, and I did enjoy it and then came the addiction to the grind, and yes I enjoyed that, for a while.
Grinding scenarios has become a requirement to get the equipment required to play. One cannot rely on drops from PvE, and the quest reward gear is quite ordinary.
What is really noticeable is the LACK of equipment that can be bought or crafted. I enjoyed playing a Chaos Chosen, but I did miss the use of a great 2H sword. I know they are available somewhere, but I could not find them. Even original EQ you could obtain equipment relatively cheaply.
I do miss the opportunity to make weapons, trinkets and armor. I loved crafting in other games and harvesting materials. All this leads to a player based economy.
To sum up, it is disappointing to see
1. Merchants everywhere that sell nothing.
2. The inability to make gear.
3. Lack of player based economy.
Just my 2c worth.
Yes, you are. Just say, "I think I explain it better". :P
I've played over two dozen MMORPGs, and I ran into something with WAR that I have never, ever before experienced: Not "love" or "hate", but extreme apathy. Never before have I felt nothing at all while playing.
I had to take a break from the game for a while due to a rough work schedule, about 6 weeks ago. Normally after a few days I'm logging back in because the MMO genre is just a natural draw. But here? Ehh... no need. Three days stretched to a week, then two, then a month, then I realized if I could so easily forget about the game, I shouldn't be paying for it.
The game isn't bad at all, but it makes me feel like... like it's SO "not bad" that it's not "GREAT". And if I'm going to spend a hobby's worth of time on something, I better love it.
I feel like, if I was a smoker, and someone replaced my pack of Marlboros with Candy Cigarettes. These cigarettes taste different -- I actually sort of like the taste. But there's no nicotine in them; nothing to feed the addiction that drew me to smoke to begin with.
as much as I love PvP. I think this is 100% Correct. Besides When I PvP I want to PvP with people who play because they ENJOY pvp. I do not want to be stuck with a bunch of asshats that just want to max out their level ASAP.
the problem with the game is that there is too many zones..i should be able to run from my capital city to the enemies capital city and not have to go through tiers and zones. The tier system is just wrong for a pvp game. why didnt they just make it like daoc and everyone would of been happy.
I agree. But you have to realize that this was done on purpose in order to defeat gold sellers. Basically, the approach Mythic took to gold sellers was, in addition to being aggressive about banning them, make gold plentiful and irrelevant in that you have nothing to really spend a lot of gold on in the game. That way there is no incentive to buy gold, which craters the market for RMT, which gets rid of the farmers. That I can understand. But the huge price for doing it that way is that you have pretty much no player economy to speak of. That has ripple effects: it makes the game less social, it makes cities less of a gathering point, it takes variety away from gameplay and so on. It's kind of like they threw the baby out with the bathwater when it came to the economy in an effort to completely throttle RMT, because Mark Jacobs loathes RMT with a passion.
That from the editoral.
The answer: Anyone who watched the viral videos that WAR released with the chunky guy doing his schtick.
He constantly played up Destro, and there was such a HUGE different in art style between the two. The Destro side was extremely bold, while Order? Milktoast. The hype about abilities and attitude (that was supplied by the chunky guy) for Destro was so immediate, that anyone under 30 definitely would not roll an Order guy. All that heavymetal gear and weaponry.. who'd wanna be holding a flintlock pistol and a rapier, seriously???
Think back to all the vids pre-released then again ask yourself.. who could have predicted?
Just about anyone with two working eyeballs.
"TO MICHAEL!"
hmm.. I guess this statement, as well as the original editoral throws under the bus the argument that people are being lead like sheep in others games, and thats what makes WAR so refreshing.
It has been said so many times other games 'lead' and 'herd' and 'sheep' you do death, but now it appears this is what the WAR faithful are in total agreement that it is EXACTLY what War SHOULD be doing right now? Sheepherding? Well, if that don't beat the band.
This is rather odd come-about philosophy. I thought the key attraction to WAR was it's 'NON-sheepness' and somewhat sandboxy appeal. Now sheepherding is being put forth as the saving idea for the game to keep it afloat? Is the idea here, that you love War THAT much; that you'd prostitute your ideals a bit as long as the game continues?
I really bet there's a certain other game laughing quite out loud while reading this particular idea coming from War fans... one that they knew all along what people wanted (needed?) and have been doing that for years. Quite ironic.
"TO MICHAEL!"
You ignore the obvious just so you can draw a conclusion and blame the players.
You say people are to lazy to make public quests happen? Ok lets look at the situation and see what the players had to work with.
It was Mythic that made gathering people difficult. Maybe people are lazy after the fact, but that doesn't matter considering all the effort Mythic put into making most forms of player communication impossible or damn near so. Yet you want to blame players for being lazy, but grouping seems to be plentiful in other games. Why is it so different here?
Beyond that all of this blame shifting doesn't make much sense other than to rationalize the situation of warhammer. Does everyone really think Warhammer was so well put together that the problem must be hundreds of thousands of people are doing something wrong? I am sure it must be conveinent to blame something else, but why hasn't anyone just asked the question that explains all of it.
Is the game fun? I think the answer was no for more people than it was laziness. This isn't to say the game is boring, but there are some real trouble spots.
yep that article hits the nail on the head, the problem is the gamers ... but not just any gamers the WoW gamers.
i Have always said there is too much content in WAR and that players need to be funnelled into certain areas in order to get a good experience from this content. You see WOW do this all the time, quest after quest that moves you through the world. most gamers don't explore anymore unless a quest tells them to go there.
I remember when i played EQ1 my two buddies and I just started off in a direction if we saw something cool we went over there, many times we got our butts handed to us but it was fun and exciting to see something new. Now with this rise of the Quest grind ... if my quest doesn't tell me to go somewhere Im not going there? why would I theres no reward in going there so whats the point.
now most of the time in WAR me and my buddies don't even group up because its much more productive to solo, we tried to take on PQs but were usually the only three there so we cant beat the final guy so whats the point.
WAR needs to be a giant funnel to be successful. get rid of the 3 pairings and make it Altdorf vs inevitable City. give each race its own starting zone thats tailored to their races personality and then at the starting of tier 2 funnel them into the mainland where they will meet up with all the other sides.
yes i honestly believe that on paper Warhammer is an amazing game ... on paper.
-you have scenerio PVP for those that want small scale RVR (group vs group action). and also for those that don't have a lot of time they can just click a button and bam instant action.
-you have open RVR for those that like assault keeps and defending keeps
-Lairs for those individuals/groups that like to explore and find out of the way bosses that drop nice loot
-dungeons for those that like to do dungeon crawls for good loot and good xp
-quests for the questers
-PQs for thats like the huge raid atmosphere without the need to be in an elite raid guild.
so really except crafters there is something for EVERYONE. I thought it was a brilliant game design when i first heard about all these different things to do.
unfortunately everything is a barren wasteland because scenerio rewards the best xp and good loot for most levels.
PvE isn't what this game is about, if that is what your trying to state. It never was. IMO, they shouldn't of added any PQ's or quest related to PvE. It only makes the balance wheel even harder to adjust correctly. It also gets people confused as to what type of game your trying to put out there. It's clearly evident that this is happening. The scenarios also should of never been setup like they are now. The capture the flag, hold the ball crap system they have now almost directly resembles WoW which was never really that great to begin with. Why they didn't just make them like the BG's they had in Dark Age of Camelot is beyond me. They spout all this crap about how much open RvR means to them, and then they place Scenarios inside there game that don't even reflect Open RvR. And they wonder why people are taking the easy way out.
oh god spare me this utter bullsh!t ... the game always had a PVE side to it, sure the focus was mostly about RVR but they never said that PVE didnt have its place in the game. fact is there are MUCH more PVE'rs out there than pure PVPers.