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THIS IS NOT AN ISOLATED INCIDENT
Jessonater
Member Posts: 50
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3041/3071901111_a710eea3bf.jpg?v=0
Can you guess what this thread is about?
Bright Wizards are ruining the game. Mythics answer? Release a class that is good at countering magic attacks.
x_-
Comments
Order still lost. I don't see the problem.
Not surprised. I played a bright wizard until level 20 and I coudn't believe how many times I topped the scenario in kills and damage. I would just stand there and push 2 maybe 3 buttons and I would top the tables. Some would love this but I quit for that and other reasons.
Does this mean that WAR has terrible class balance (I haven't played it yet)?
WoW had a "great" (sarcasm) solution to class balance issues; make every class able to do mass amounts of damage. While that move made 90% of WoW's population happy, I was pretty upset because classes that were advertised to specialize in damage (mage, rogue, etc.) can now be outdamaged by support classes (like healers).
I hope WAR doesn't end up like that.
WAR has pretty could balance besides the BW which is way overpowered. I am saying this from an order standpoint.
Looking at the kill counts and the scores all I can say is:
Nice photo shop.
I'm not sure how it is for the US side of WAR, but for us EU people, we have a sort of 'hall of fame' type thing on our EU website...
and guess what?
sorcs and bright wizards are the classes topping the kill list
I would have no problem seeing Bright Wizzards having a really high potential for damage. However, the wizzards in this match were just running through mobs of choas and staying up. They're able to survice and take damage from everyone while doing this type of damage?
x_-
you do realize, mage type classes have ALWAYS been known for Offense -- LOTS of OFFENSIVE DAMAGE ?
This is pretty standard in any MMO. The robe wearing, spell-caster types are offensive juggernauts. Since this is a pvp game, you are at the receivng end of what mobs deal with in pve games.
You guys knew all this already right ? This was all just a big joke...
you do realize, mage type classes have ALWAYS been known for Offense -- LOTS of OFFENSIVE DAMAGE ?
This is pretty standard in any MMO. The robe wearing, spell-caster types are offensive juggernauts. Since this is a pvp game, you are at the receivng end of what mobs deal with in pve games.
You guys knew all this already right ? This was all just a big joke...
No thats rogues. Wizards were always known for there annoying CC. And dmg second, usualy AoE.
Even in WAR WE and WH have the potential to do the most burst dmg in my experience. Specialy WEs
Its just they die easier than casters. All melee do in WAR unless u have a personal healer. Thats why casters get the big scores. But 1on1 casters are easy to kill. Only reason my tank would die to em was large number of them doing /assist on me.
you do realize, mage type classes have ALWAYS been known for Offense -- LOTS of OFFENSIVE DAMAGE ?
This is pretty standard in any MMO. The robe wearing, spell-caster types are offensive juggernauts. Since this is a pvp game, you are at the receivng end of what mobs deal with in pve games.
You guys knew all this already right ? This was all just a big joke...
No thats rogues. Wizards were always known for there annoying CC. And dmg second, usualy AoE.
Even in WAR WE and WH have the potential to do the most burst dmg in my experience. Specialy WEs
Its just they die easier than casters. All melee do in WAR unless u have a personal healer. Thats why casters get the big scores. But 1on1 casters are easy to kill. Only reason my tank would die to em was large number of them doing /assist on me.
Just to be sure I am not putting words into your mouth -- you are saying the mage/wizard type class in MMOs is not known for Offensive Damage ? I get rouges have a rep for Damage as well, but if I recall correctly the discussion was about wizard type classes --
you do realize, mage type classes have ALWAYS been known for Offense -- LOTS of OFFENSIVE DAMAGE ?
This is pretty standard in any MMO. The robe wearing, spell-caster types are offensive juggernauts. Since this is a pvp game, you are at the receivng end of what mobs deal with in pve games.
You guys knew all this already right ? This was all just a big joke...
No thats rogues. Wizards were always known for there annoying CC. And dmg second, usualy AoE.
Even in WAR WE and WH have the potential to do the most burst dmg in my experience. Specialy WEs
Its just they die easier than casters. All melee do in WAR unless u have a personal healer. Thats why casters get the big scores. But 1on1 casters are easy to kill. Only reason my tank would die to em was large number of them doing /assist on me.
Just to be sure I am not putting words into your mouth -- you are saying the mage/wizard type class in MMOs is not known for Offensive Damage ? I get rouges have a rep for Damage as well, but if I recall correctly the discussion was about wizard type classes --
Yes, he is saying that the "Wizard" isn't known as the offensive-juggernaut, that's the Rogue's place. And yes, I too think that while the Rogue's are certainly known for their dmg-dealing abilities, the discussion was about "Wizards". The stero-typical MMO "Wizard" class I have in my head, and I think many people will agree with me here, is a pure-offensively oriented, high-dps burst, EQ Wizard class, the class EvolvedMonkey is reffering to, with the insane CC is another class entirely. What I picture when I think of a defensive/CC-caster class is the best class of that type I have ever played, the EQ Enchanter, they traded dmg-output for lockdown-CC and support abilities. Traditionally, and rightly IMO, a caster class can not have the insane CC AND the insane-dmg output, they need to be one or the other, they can possibly do both, but not at once they must choose.
IMO, the "Wizard" is the offensive beast caster class, and should be doing insane dmg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, as for the OP...
I really don't see a problem.
I don't know if you're thread is saying that Bright Wizards are overpowered, and thus Order has an advantage b/c Destructions version, the Sorc is shit, or that Bright Wizards AND Sorc's are overpowered and that it's unfair.
In either case I think you're wrong.
First off, that scoreboard you linked to in your OP did NOT have any Sorc's represented at all, so it's not showing that Sorc's put up the same type of numbers as the Bright Wizard.
Then, if you are saying that both factions flavor of this class is overpowered....well, what did you expect? They are the "Wizard" class in the game....the ranged dps, flimsy robe-wearing, mana burning, two-hit's and they are dead, insane damage output, AoE'ing, offensive freakin juggernaut class. They are supposed to do insane dmg, that's their job and they do it well. Other classes also do crazy dmg, maybe not on the wide scale as the BW and Sorc, but again, they're not meant to.
Also, Renown gain is NOT based on damage done alone. So how much dmg they deal really doesn't mean they are leveling faster, or gaining any advantage or anything. I don't know, people have been whining about this for awhile now, I don't see a problem.
Just to qualify, I do NOT play a BW or Sorc as my main (my main is a Witch Hunter, although it may possibly a KoTBS starting tomorrow), so I have no personal reason to defend them. I am, however, an Elder Tester and have been playing since release, I also study scoreboards as a rule so seeing the "Wizards" doing crazy dmg is nothing new, in the end, it balances out.
You do realize that the Order side got steamrolled right? Those BWs may have been hitting Squids for all we know from a screenshot of the scoreboard. That means nothing. Would you rather lose but gimp the BWs? Winning is everything. Being the top damage is nothing.
I have to agree - people posting threads about bright wizards is not an isolated incident.
More importantly, one of the bright wizards isn't even high in the kill counts. The more impressive players are those that actually keep their damage stat low, but get high in the kills anyway. They can do this through snaring, rooting, healing suppresion, and focus firing on appropriate targets. The fact that so much damage was done while losing the scenario by a large margin shows very poor gameplay ability - hardly an example of being overpowered.
What people don't seem to understand, and it's beginning to drive me crazy, is that sorcerors and bright wizards are nothing until they start getting heals from 2 or more healing classes. That is when the game starts becoming broken - you've got a highly offensive class with better range than any other, more survivability than a tank, and additional crowd control to stop and disarm from a distance. People notice this brokenness, but then jump to completely wrong conclusions. Hint: It's the healing that is broken, not the casters.
Example: The other day a couple of rank 40 swordmasters were commenting on the brokenness of the game when a level 27 sorceror was coming at them with confidence during a Serpent's Passage scenario. The level 27 sorceror wasn't the problem - it was the 3 rank 40 shamans/zeolots behind him that put everything out of whack.
The fact that so many people on these forums, in game, and in other locations don't see the actual problem is a sign of just how confused the MMORPG industry has become. I'm starting to wonder if it'll ever get back on its feet.
you do realize, mage type classes have ALWAYS been known for Offense -- LOTS of OFFENSIVE DAMAGE ?
This is pretty standard in any MMO. The robe wearing, spell-caster types are offensive juggernauts. Since this is a pvp game, you are at the receivng end of what mobs deal with in pve games.
You guys knew all this already right ? This was all just a big joke...
No thats rogues. Wizards were always known for there annoying CC. And dmg second, usualy AoE.
Even in WAR WE and WH have the potential to do the most burst dmg in my experience. Specialy WEs
Its just they die easier than casters. All melee do in WAR unless u have a personal healer. Thats why casters get the big scores. But 1on1 casters are easy to kill. Only reason my tank would die to em was large number of them doing /assist on me.
Just to be sure I am not putting words into your mouth -- you are saying the mage/wizard type class in MMOs is not known for Offensive Damage ? I get rouges have a rep for Damage as well, but if I recall correctly the discussion was about wizard type classes --
Yes, he is saying that the "Wizard" isn't known as the offensive-juggernaut, that's the Rogue's place. And yes, I too think that while the Rogue's are certainly known for their dmg-dealing abilities, the discussion was about "Wizards". The stero-typical MMO "Wizard" class I have in my head, and I think many people will agree with me here, is a pure-offensively oriented, high-dps burst, EQ Wizard class, the class EvolvedMonkey is reffering to, with the insane CC is another class entirely. What I picture when I think of a defensive/CC-caster class is the best class of that type I have ever played, the EQ Enchanter, they traded dmg-output for lockdown-CC and support abilities. Traditionally, and rightly IMO, a caster class can not have the insane CC AND the insane-dmg output, they need to be one or the other, they can possibly do both, but not at once they must choose.
IMO, the "Wizard" is the offensive beast caster class, and should be doing insane dmg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, as for the OP...
I really don't see a problem.
I don't know if you're thread is saying that Bright Wizards are overpowered, and thus Order has an advantage b/c Destructions version, the Sorc is shit, or that Bright Wizards AND Sorc's are overpowered and that it's unfair.
In either case I think you're wrong.
First off, that scoreboard you linked to in your OP did NOT have any Sorc's represented at all, so it's not showing that Sorc's put up the same type of numbers as the Bright Wizard.
Then, if you are saying that both factions flavor of this class is overpowered....well, what did you expect? They are the "Wizard" class in the game....the ranged dps, flimsy robe-wearing, mana burning, two-hit's and they are dead, insane damage output, AoE'ing, offensive freakin juggernaut class. They are supposed to do insane dmg, that's their job and they do it well. Other classes also do crazy dmg, maybe not on the wide scale as the BW and Sorc, but again, they're not meant to.
Also, Renown gain is NOT based on damage done alone. So how much dmg they deal really doesn't mean they are leveling faster, or gaining any advantage or anything. I don't know, people have been whining about this for awhile now, I don't see a problem.
Just to qualify, I do NOT play a BW or Sorc as my main (my main is a Witch Hunter, although it may possibly a KoTBS starting tomorrow), so I have no personal reason to defend them. I am, however, an Elder Tester and have been playing since release, I also study scoreboards as a rule so seeing the "Wizards" doing crazy dmg is nothing new, in the end, it balances out.
sorry shoulda pointed out for pvp. Wizards arnt known to just dps ftw in pvp games. Wizards have cc in there utility belt. But in pvp the only utility u usualy use is there CC. Was not implying wizards are a CC class. There a dps class just not the best at it. Just close 2nd.
Never said insane CC just annoying CC as in I cant hit you but you can hit me. Snare or a root, a range dps always gets atleast one.
The stealthy back stabber just like in WAR will always do more burst dps than a wizard on a single target.
I dont see the problem. Im a Chosen, and my favorite victim his the bright wizzards. They cant stand a good melee. The class I kill the most is this wizards. get closer and kill them!
Three things to note about classes vs BWs
1) Witch Elfs and Tanks CAN beat them easy, the only issue with many tank players is that they use 2h'ers in combat and don't use a shield - the shield is imo 90% of the tanks defence, it CAN block spell pritty easily.
2) The BW CC was broken - I say was as now in 1.06 any form of CC gives a 5 sec immunty to the person CC'ed AND all roots now have a 50% chance to break on ANY damage (includes dots), thus preventing the perma-root to dot death methord, with all root cooldowns longer it's less likly to happen anyway..
3) A Healer makes all the difference
------
The problem really lies in the fact pre-1.06 that was THE RDPS class to play, Engi and SW had no DPS compeared, thus you saw more of them, 1.06 seems to have sorted the issue a little but TBH like I said when you hit T4 a good kitted out tank or WE can easily take them out, I've seen more BW deaths over healers so far
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
DPS means squat if you can't A. get alot of kills and B. win the scenario. Personally I think people who brag at DPS but totally suck at getting the kills or winning the scenario or working as a team not worrying over DPS are the worst community members.
DPS to me shows you found a couple of targets to beat on who were getting alot of heals and you proceeded to attack them instead of going after the healer or making sure your team was succeeding at the scenario's goals.
Even the pictures proves it..they may of gotten alot of DPS but they got squat in XP & RP compared to people with Less DPS....of course that also means the photo is probably shopped.
Wow, another one of these?
BWs, for those WoWers out there, are like the pyromage of this game. Heavy damage output, but the lowest survivability (at least before the expansions).
This is another one of those topics, where people need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Take the binoculars off, and take a look around.
Using this same chart, you will notice that:
A) Order scored terribly; translation they were spending more time trying to DPS than complete the objectives, as such the inverse is also true for destro, who were spending less time trying to dps than doing the objectives. When a class has lots of DoTs and AoE, it's very easy to just hit a bunch of targets and rack up the damage numbers. My Engineer / Magus can top the charts in such ways, even when they don't kill anything.
C) If you take a look at the next column over, for healing, you'll notice that destro has almost as much healing as order has damage. I think the total comes out to ~100k less total. For those used to tier1 that may seem insane, but for tiers 3-4 it's really not (more players, more moral, and more damage / heals being thrown around. In short, everything gets amplified).
To clear up the DPS issue between rogues vs. casters. It's quite simple.
Mages: DPS powerhouses. For those who have ever really played EQ or WoW, you should know this. Sure, rogues can do nice damage, but do yo u really see rogues topping the damage charts in raids? I don't think so.
Rogues: Single-target BURST dps. The difference? These guys can dish out an insane amount of damage to a single target over a short period of time. Aka, burst. They don't generally have high sustained DPS, though it's generally not terrible either. That role is given to Mages / other MDPS classes.
As for survivability, a lot of BWs / sorcs stack wounds / wounds talismans and toughness. I suggest doing the same, and getting resists, it helps a lot. If they don't have a healer and aren't 6-9 lvls higher than you, they will go down much easier. At that tier there are also silences, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, backfires & defense ignoring skills that will tear apart even the most highly defensive BW.
OP Order still lost so its not BW but overpopulation of destruction which outnumbers Order on almost every server, runing this game. Now please cry me a river.
you do realize, mage type classes have ALWAYS been known for Offense -- LOTS of OFFENSIVE DAMAGE ?
This is pretty standard in any MMO. The robe wearing, spell-caster types are offensive juggernauts. Since this is a pvp game, you are at the receivng end of what mobs deal with in pve games.
You guys knew all this already right ? This was all just a big joke...
No thats rogues. Wizards were always known for there annoying CC. And dmg second, usualy AoE.
Even in WAR WE and WH have the potential to do the most burst dmg in my experience. Specialy WEs
Its just they die easier than casters. All melee do in WAR unless u have a personal healer. Thats why casters get the big scores. But 1on1 casters are easy to kill. Only reason my tank would die to em was large number of them doing /assist on me.
Just to be sure I am not putting words into your mouth -- you are saying the mage/wizard type class in MMOs is not known for Offensive Damage ? I get rouges have a rep for Damage as well, but if I recall correctly the discussion was about wizard type classes --
Yes, he is saying that the "Wizard" isn't known as the offensive-juggernaut, that's the Rogue's place. And yes, I too think that while the Rogue's are certainly known for their dmg-dealing abilities, the discussion was about "Wizards". The stero-typical MMO "Wizard" class I have in my head, and I think many people will agree with me here, is a pure-offensively oriented, high-dps burst, EQ Wizard class, the class EvolvedMonkey is reffering to, with the insane CC is another class entirely. What I picture when I think of a defensive/CC-caster class is the best class of that type I have ever played, the EQ Enchanter, they traded dmg-output for lockdown-CC and support abilities. Traditionally, and rightly IMO, a caster class can not have the insane CC AND the insane-dmg output, they need to be one or the other, they can possibly do both, but not at once they must choose.
IMO, the "Wizard" is the offensive beast caster class, and should be doing insane dmg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, as for the OP...
I really don't see a problem.
I don't know if you're thread is saying that Bright Wizards are overpowered, and thus Order has an advantage b/c Destructions version, the Sorc is shit, or that Bright Wizards AND Sorc's are overpowered and that it's unfair.
In either case I think you're wrong.
First off, that scoreboard you linked to in your OP did NOT have any Sorc's represented at all, so it's not showing that Sorc's put up the same type of numbers as the Bright Wizard.
Then, if you are saying that both factions flavor of this class is overpowered....well, what did you expect? They are the "Wizard" class in the game....the ranged dps, flimsy robe-wearing, mana burning, two-hit's and they are dead, insane damage output, AoE'ing, offensive freakin juggernaut class. They are supposed to do insane dmg, that's their job and they do it well. Other classes also do crazy dmg, maybe not on the wide scale as the BW and Sorc, but again, they're not meant to.
Also, Renown gain is NOT based on damage done alone. So how much dmg they deal really doesn't mean they are leveling faster, or gaining any advantage or anything. I don't know, people have been whining about this for awhile now, I don't see a problem.
Just to qualify, I do NOT play a BW or Sorc as my main (my main is a Witch Hunter, although it may possibly a KoTBS starting tomorrow), so I have no personal reason to defend them. I am, however, an Elder Tester and have been playing since release, I also study scoreboards as a rule so seeing the "Wizards" doing crazy dmg is nothing new, in the end, it balances out.
The EQ Enchanter...your bringing back some memories now. As far as CC they were king.
you do realize, mage type classes have ALWAYS been known for Offense -- LOTS of OFFENSIVE DAMAGE ?
This is pretty standard in any MMO. The robe wearing, spell-caster types are offensive juggernauts. Since this is a pvp game, you are at the receivng end of what mobs deal with in pve games.
You guys knew all this already right ? This was all just a big joke...
No thats rogues. Wizards were always known for there annoying CC. And dmg second, usualy AoE.
Even in WAR WE and WH have the potential to do the most burst dmg in my experience. Specialy WEs
Its just they die easier than casters. All melee do in WAR unless u have a personal healer. Thats why casters get the big scores. But 1on1 casters are easy to kill. Only reason my tank would die to em was large number of them doing /assist on me.
Just to be sure I am not putting words into your mouth -- you are saying the mage/wizard type class in MMOs is not known for Offensive Damage ? I get rouges have a rep for Damage as well, but if I recall correctly the discussion was about wizard type classes --
Yes, he is saying that the "Wizard" isn't known as the offensive-juggernaut, that's the Rogue's place. And yes, I too think that while the Rogue's are certainly known for their dmg-dealing abilities, the discussion was about "Wizards". The stero-typical MMO "Wizard" class I have in my head, and I think many people will agree with me here, is a pure-offensively oriented, high-dps burst, EQ Wizard class, the class EvolvedMonkey is reffering to, with the insane CC is another class entirely. What I picture when I think of a defensive/CC-caster class is the best class of that type I have ever played, the EQ Enchanter, they traded dmg-output for lockdown-CC and support abilities. Traditionally, and rightly IMO, a caster class can not have the insane CC AND the insane-dmg output, they need to be one or the other, they can possibly do both, but not at once they must choose.
IMO, the "Wizard" is the offensive beast caster class, and should be doing insane dmg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, as for the OP...
I really don't see a problem.
I don't know if you're thread is saying that Bright Wizards are overpowered, and thus Order has an advantage b/c Destructions version, the Sorc is shit, or that Bright Wizards AND Sorc's are overpowered and that it's unfair.
In either case I think you're wrong.
First off, that scoreboard you linked to in your OP did NOT have any Sorc's represented at all, so it's not showing that Sorc's put up the same type of numbers as the Bright Wizard.
Then, if you are saying that both factions flavor of this class is overpowered....well, what did you expect? They are the "Wizard" class in the game....the ranged dps, flimsy robe-wearing, mana burning, two-hit's and they are dead, insane damage output, AoE'ing, offensive freakin juggernaut class. They are supposed to do insane dmg, that's their job and they do it well. Other classes also do crazy dmg, maybe not on the wide scale as the BW and Sorc, but again, they're not meant to.
Also, Renown gain is NOT based on damage done alone. So how much dmg they deal really doesn't mean they are leveling faster, or gaining any advantage or anything. I don't know, people have been whining about this for awhile now, I don't see a problem.
Just to qualify, I do NOT play a BW or Sorc as my main (my main is a Witch Hunter, although it may possibly a KoTBS starting tomorrow), so I have no personal reason to defend them. I am, however, an Elder Tester and have been playing since release, I also study scoreboards as a rule so seeing the "Wizards" doing crazy dmg is nothing new, in the end, it balances out.
sorry shoulda pointed out for pvp. Wizards arnt known to just dps ftw in pvp games. Wizards have cc in there utility belt. But in pvp the only utility u usualy use is there CC. Was not implying wizards are a CC class. There a dps class just not the best at it. Just close 2nd.
Never said insane CC just annoying CC as in I cant hit you but you can hit me. Snare or a root, a range dps always gets atleast one.
The stealthy back stabber just like in WAR will always do more burst dps than a wizard on a single target.
just let it go...in time most people will forget what you said.
I really think that damage numbers for bright wizards are kinda situational and always gonna be high. In war BM have killer AE abilities which do a lot of damage to a lot of targets. If a BM can get into the think of it do there AE and not get killed they are gonna do insane damage numbers. Thats just how the class is designed.
Other class might do far better dps but against single targets. This is something that these charts just don't show. What is the BM dps against a single target sustained? So I guess I'm not sure I see any real issue here and while the high damage numbers are interesting they are not surprising in the least given the nature of the class and it's abilities.
---
Ethion
Indeed...
The charts do show that info, well kinda...the scoreboards report killing blows, and solo kills, so that's really what you want to look at when you see insane dmg numbers that are much higher then anyone else's. Most of the time those numbers will be low, even when the dmg numbers are in the stratosphere.
For example, my main (atm) is a Witch Hunter...I absolutely love this class....and I can do amazing burst dmg to a single target and usually take them down solo, and very quickly, if taken at unawares, but then I have to haul arse out of there, sneak back past the line and take out another squishy target. The average BW/Sorc on the other hand will stand behind our tank lines AoE-nuking the hell out of as many people as possible, but not really killing many people.
As an ending note...The BW/Sorc's can indeed do high-burst single-target dmg, but then they lose most of their AoE dmg.
As this thread has pointed out numerous times, things balance themselves out. The game isn't broken or horribly imbalanced like some people are so quick to claim.
The thing is everytime I run into a scenarion with my WP and don't get to kill a sorc or WE I always analyse the situation because sometimes you don't what or who was holding that sorc up, be it a tank or a healer and I'm guessing people don't do that they just jump to coclusions and believe what they've seen is the right answer. Funny story, when i'm playing guildwars i'm always happy to see too many casters(be it ele or mesmer) but in WAR i just automatically think "we're doomed". And that just goes to show the class is totally given more credit than it deserves.
This is not a game.