Well the OP sounds pretty, but I just have to say:
My first computer was a Tandy 1000TL. I got it for Christmas when I was five. (My parents wanted me to be a genius, unfortunately it just made me a PC Gaming nerd)
My favorite games where Kings Quest IV, Robocop, and 688 Attack Sub. I'll also had an Apple II emulator which aloud me to play all the MECC Classics, Word Munchers, Oregon Trail, etc.
My second computer was homemade:
486DX2-66
16 MB RAM
VESA Local Bus Graphic with 1 MB dedicated graphics.
On this beast I more adventure games than I count. Kings Quest I-VI, Quest For Glory I-IV (QFGIV being my absolute #1 favorite PC Game of all time, which I stil play through literally dozens of times a year). Wing Commander I-III. Wolfenstien 3D, DOOM. Monkey Island 1 and 2, Full Throttle, The Dig (which I just played through again 3 days ago, SCUMMVM be praised) Sam and Max Hit the Road. And of course about a dozen non Sierra or Lucas Adventure games... Anyone remember Wrath of the Gods? Return of The Phantom? I do. Oh yeah, there was a little FPS called Warcraft: Orcs and Humans too. And I'm probably the only person in existance that thinks Ultima VIII was the best in the series (the game iteself was far more limited, but the world was just so dark and creepy and cool).
Of course the Pentium came out... and the 3DFX Voodoo.
And Quake... and Quake II, and Warcraft II, and Diablo, and Starcraft. Wing Commander Prophacy... And of course... of course... Ultima Online. I was like Ultima VIII which I loved so much... ONLINE. With other people. Me and my friends I played Quake and Diablo with could now play ULTIMA.... ONLINE... Dude, what could be more awesome?
Ok, I'm bored telling this story... you get the point.
I AM a veteran MMO player, and more so a Veteran PC gamer. I REMEMBER when Origin created worlds, and I remember the world that kick-started the MMO genre. I was there. It was awesome.
But it had problems:
Free open PvP lead to indescriminate ussually unbalanced ganking. Some you call this immersive. I call it the opposite of immersive. In fact it's nothing more than expiriement in the old internet addage: anonymity+audiance=ashhole (browes around the MMORPG.com forums for more examples). It's nothing but anonymous cyber-bullying that people do because they can with no consequences. PLEASE, tell me ONE MMO, where indescriminately killing people has a profound and permenant effect on your gameplay expirience such as it would on REAL life, in the REAL world, even in a relatively "lawless" time period or location.
Player Housing is an awesome concept in theory, but instanced Player Housing is stupid and non-instanced player housing turned Britannia (that was once Sosaria) into one big endless concrete jungle. Which is why I quit that game. I just couldn't "immerse" myself in a fantasy world that's a giant suburb.
And, dungeons. You know what I used to think playing UO, EQ, AC when running dungeons? (This is gonna kill you guys, but I'm not kidding) I used to think, "this is stupid" they should split up groups and let each group run their own separate copy of the dungeon. Yes, folks... back in UO days, camping out in the Covetous treasure room... I thought they should instance dungeons. Why? Because Lord of The Rings wasn't about 500 similier adventurers camping out in Moria waiting for the Balrog to occasionally respawn. Again... that's not immersive.
So you see where I'm going with this... I play WoW, and I love playing WoW. Lord knows I've gotten sick of it at times and taken long breaks vowing never to return... and maybe one day I won't, who knows?
And the truth is, your taste and mind are probably diffrent. Open PVP and Non-instance unrestricted player housing probably don't bother you the same way they bother me. You want what you want, and I want what I want... and THAT'S FINE... but for the love of Godm STOP pretending like it's because YOU are "Veteran MMO" player, and they rest of us are just kids that don't know any better. You remember a time before noobie was bastardized into nub? Ha! I remember a time before noobie or any variation there of was in vogue AT ALL.
People have diffrent tastes. Even old-school PC Gaming vets like you and me. I understand why you are bored and dissappointed by what out there right now, and I hope something comes along that does what you want it to... and when it does, I may not like it. This has nothing to do with how expirienced either of us are, or who's opinion is superior to whos. I'm not even going to say my opinons aren't wierd because I play the same game as however-the-fuck millions of other people play WoW (several million of which are in China paying considerably less than I do to play a completely different version of the game BTW) because I could care less. I play it because I enjoy it. That's all that matters. Lord knows, if I'm in the majority of opinion on MMOs (not that I'm suggesting I necessarily am), I'm not on several other issues.
So yeah, bottum line, what I'm trying to get acrossed here: OP, you need to get over yourself. Your taste in MMOs does not make you a better person. It does not even make you a better gamer. It does not even make you a better MMO player.
By gods, the op is 25 and he is complaining about the younger generation of gamers...damn, that makes me a grandpa (at 35).
I like the spirit of the OP if it's about nostalgia. Otherwise, the younger freedom geek (i.e not married with kids or with a needy gf) generation...there is NOTHING stopping you from playing Call of Cthulhu, D&D, Paranoia, Twilight 2000 etc paper & dice style. If you're true geek and have the time, then you will play em. old school and use mmorpgs only as a weak alternative. The real deal is and will always be paper & dice.
Us old timers (lol, 35) only play mmos cos we moved away from home cities (me in Japan, but from Edinburgh), had family, and could no longer paper and dice like when we were young.
You claim to be hardcore with no excuses (family, split from hometown) then crack open them dice and play face to face.
NotNiceDino- I really value your opinion as another vet gamer. Its nice to hear another point of view. Sam n Max hit the road brings back so many great memories. And the kings quest series.
I also want to tell you whole heartedly I am not trying place myself above anyone else in this thread. I am saying thier is a group of us vets that do feel a bit like the industry was sold out beneath us in favor of a larger less deticated market. By less deticated I mean a more fickle(i think thats how you spell it I've actually never typed that word before) audience that doesn't really know what its like to have limited gaming choices.
This works against us as PC gamers because developers are really trying to appease them. By doing so things are rushed and the features are suffering.
So they want a game with no grind, quests that don't feel like a grind, easy leveling, full open sandbox pvp, with awesome gear but the game is not gear centric. This cannot exist. It is too many contradictions in one game and what happens is something like warhammer. (If you like warhammer thats great)
The devs are trying to satisfy a very fickle audience whos needs change as they experience what they actually wanted. So what we get as PC gamers- Sequals to formulas that worked (sometimes good sometimes bad, how many war sims do we really need?)
Then the MMO's, this has become something so awful and wasteful. PoTBS and TR come out and people saying the whole time "this is what I want." Then the game comes out and we start to hear "wait some of these features don't work like they did in my imagination." To the inevitable "this game sux I didn't even finish my free month, whens darkfall gonna come out?"
We are on the road to failure with the short bus leading the way. I do have hope, but we gotta get that short bus off the lead.
Well... I kinda beg to differ. I am a gamer vet myself, played games from the early Commodore 64 days, so I know well what hardships games used to be. I recall fantasy games like the first Ultimas, and god I LOVED them. But I changed WITH the games, I didnt stay as I were, and god forbid I dont want to see games with hardships like in 1983!
As for MMOs... they are, at least for me, a totally different category. When I was still entirely focussed on single player games, I heard about MMOs when UO and EQ1 were new. So I asked friends about them, I tried their accounts out to see what it was like - and I hated it. I really, totally hated everything of it, because at that time single player games had become WAY more comfortable compared to those First Era MMORGPs. The UO player killing, the DAYS of boss mob camping of EQ, I just saw that as totally boring timesink and nothing like the exciting adventures of the single player games. Why should I be a mere baker in UO when I could be the Avatar in Ultima VII? Why should I wait hours for a boss mob to respawn in EQ1, when all the mobs were MINE in Might and Magic III?
Really, the MMOs back then were only one thing: PA THE TIC. The only thing was the novelty to play with other people instead of alone, and that novelty made many endure hardships which otherwise no sane person would accept. You just didnt know better back then, its that simple. I am not saying everything is golden now and better, but dont want a heck back of the old MMOs. They were clumsy, elitarian and a pain in the ass. Only when SWG and EQ2 brought a new kind of MMO experience I was finally willing to enter the MMO train.
And unlike some others I changed with games. What worked for me in 1980 and 1990 and even 2000 just would not work with me today.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Elikal- I agree that what was in the 80's and early 90's wouldnt work today largely because of the monochrome screen thing. Storage was also a problem back then. BUT certain gems did make it through and even though I wouldn't enjoy Zork today as I did then doesn't make me lose respect for the fact that everything now is because those games existed.
As for MMO's I think there is a to each his own aspect of it. I can't speak for all vets. I like to think they al have a similar opinion but they don't. I am however speaking for some of us that are tired of seeing the same crap over and over.
I respect your opinion and I'm glad you posted yet another point of view for us to look at.
I don't think all modern MMo's are bad by the way. I don't do the EQ series but I have the ones I do like. I have a fondness for VG. I think WoW is a well done game but its not for me. The problem is the copycat thing with what is a success. I can't take many more copycat games. It's just getting stupid now.
On a side note I'd like to thank everyone posting for keeping such a long thread so civil. Very nice conversation guys.
I agree completely, i am currently 26 (not that old i hope) and i also grew up with PC games. I see it a bit different somehow, i miss the old games but at the same time i am happy that i change with the flow and don't try to stand firm, i don't want everything the same way that i know.
It's like the grandpas that sit on the bench and crying how good the old times were.
Mech Warrior, EQ1, Dunegeon Keeper, Lords of the Realm... those are the truly great games of the past and I was a bit younger (now 26) than the guy who started this but I started gaming at a much earlier age than the norm was...
I played EQ1 from release day till WoW came out and have been dissapointed in every single game I have played since then. The people drive me nuts and no one cares about anything but their phat lewtz and it drives me batty.
In EQ1 it was all about taking the next mob down or getting into a good grind group or sitting on a list to even level since when you were 40+ at the start of the game you had like 2 decent places to level and both you had ot get on every list and make friends with everyone and their mom so you could get in eventually... that is the stuff I miss about this easy access, make little kids epeen larger type of games they have out today.
That is the difference.. the people in the games have changed so much (because of accessablity) that it is all about ME ME ME and that is why the MMO world is screwed.. as with everything it seems.. the more people interested.. the worse it gets.
Rumor, I think we agree that today's MMO gamer and today's MMO game is attracting a different type of crowd. Where I think we disagree is what the nature of this new demographic looks like. Many have argued that these are 'casual' players, and cite things from publishers saying that they want to appeal to a casual demographic. I disagree though. These are the hardest of the hardcore, from games that only appeal to the hardest of the hardcore computer junkies, and I think the publishers know it. They just don't want to use the term 'hardcore' to describe them. Many have argued that these folks are not computer savvy. I think they are extremely computer savvy, and use every technological advantage they can to be better than the next player. They'll program bots, buy gold from resellers, and use comms; things that non-traditional gamers don't do. Many have argued that these people are soloers and don't care about working with others. I think this is a mischaracterization. They care about their clans, and work closely with their clans in not only one game, but across many games. They are team players, because they come from games that stress teamwork over self-reliance (Counterstrike, RTS, etc.). In fact, they typically don't know how to play without their clans very well.They are such team players, that they'll share account info so other players can access their characters to play when they are not there. It is true that they are typically antisocial to those outside their clan, but they are far from loners. I suspect he people who are getting shafted in this new MMO scene aren't the 'old pros' who played everything else under the sun. The people who are getting shafted are the people who have little reason to enjoy traditional computer games, and even less of a reason now. Those are the folks that made the old time games interesting.
Good points, but don't you think they've brought in a good amount of BOTH of those groups? The harcore competitive group (from FPS and RTS) that wants a no frills, trimmed down MMO that gets straight to the competition and the ultra casual group (with almost no gaming back ground) that doesn't want anything to challenge or slow down their entertainment.
Not really. I don't know of many housewives and seniors who play WoW (though I'm sure there's a few). It's simply too faced paced and aggressive for players who aren't driven gamers. In my experience, a lot of non-traditional gamers liked platforms such as Second Life and ealy SWG specifically because they were "slow paced." It isn't a matter of wanting easier challenges so non-gamers can be on the same par as gamers. It's a matter not partaking in a goal-driven environment at all.
What is there to do in WoW if you aren't doing quests or PvP? Nothing really. So what is there for a housewife who really doesn't care about quests or PvP to find in WoW? Nothing really.
I see what you're saying and I'd agree that there probably aren't many "housewives" who are into end game raiding or competitive PvP. But, I think you're over looking the fact that MMO questing is ridiculously easy, especially if the game has a good amount of solo quests. That's why I think there are plenty of ultra casual players in there, because they just quest at their own pace and never even think about the faster paced end game activities.
Comments
Well the OP sounds pretty, but I just have to say:
My first computer was a Tandy 1000TL. I got it for Christmas when I was five. (My parents wanted me to be a genius, unfortunately it just made me a PC Gaming nerd)
My favorite games where Kings Quest IV, Robocop, and 688 Attack Sub. I'll also had an Apple II emulator which aloud me to play all the MECC Classics, Word Munchers, Oregon Trail, etc.
My second computer was homemade:
486DX2-66
16 MB RAM
VESA Local Bus Graphic with 1 MB dedicated graphics.
On this beast I more adventure games than I count. Kings Quest I-VI, Quest For Glory I-IV (QFGIV being my absolute #1 favorite PC Game of all time, which I stil play through literally dozens of times a year). Wing Commander I-III. Wolfenstien 3D, DOOM. Monkey Island 1 and 2, Full Throttle, The Dig (which I just played through again 3 days ago, SCUMMVM be praised) Sam and Max Hit the Road. And of course about a dozen non Sierra or Lucas Adventure games... Anyone remember Wrath of the Gods? Return of The Phantom? I do. Oh yeah, there was a little FPS called Warcraft: Orcs and Humans too. And I'm probably the only person in existance that thinks Ultima VIII was the best in the series (the game iteself was far more limited, but the world was just so dark and creepy and cool).
Of course the Pentium came out... and the 3DFX Voodoo.
And Quake... and Quake II, and Warcraft II, and Diablo, and Starcraft. Wing Commander Prophacy... And of course... of course... Ultima Online. I was like Ultima VIII which I loved so much... ONLINE. With other people. Me and my friends I played Quake and Diablo with could now play ULTIMA.... ONLINE... Dude, what could be more awesome?
Ok, I'm bored telling this story... you get the point.
I AM a veteran MMO player, and more so a Veteran PC gamer. I REMEMBER when Origin created worlds, and I remember the world that kick-started the MMO genre. I was there. It was awesome.
But it had problems:
Free open PvP lead to indescriminate ussually unbalanced ganking. Some you call this immersive. I call it the opposite of immersive. In fact it's nothing more than expiriement in the old internet addage: anonymity+audiance=ashhole (browes around the MMORPG.com forums for more examples). It's nothing but anonymous cyber-bullying that people do because they can with no consequences. PLEASE, tell me ONE MMO, where indescriminately killing people has a profound and permenant effect on your gameplay expirience such as it would on REAL life, in the REAL world, even in a relatively "lawless" time period or location.
Player Housing is an awesome concept in theory, but instanced Player Housing is stupid and non-instanced player housing turned Britannia (that was once Sosaria) into one big endless concrete jungle. Which is why I quit that game. I just couldn't "immerse" myself in a fantasy world that's a giant suburb.
And, dungeons. You know what I used to think playing UO, EQ, AC when running dungeons? (This is gonna kill you guys, but I'm not kidding) I used to think, "this is stupid" they should split up groups and let each group run their own separate copy of the dungeon. Yes, folks... back in UO days, camping out in the Covetous treasure room... I thought they should instance dungeons. Why? Because Lord of The Rings wasn't about 500 similier adventurers camping out in Moria waiting for the Balrog to occasionally respawn. Again... that's not immersive.
So you see where I'm going with this... I play WoW, and I love playing WoW. Lord knows I've gotten sick of it at times and taken long breaks vowing never to return... and maybe one day I won't, who knows?
And the truth is, your taste and mind are probably diffrent. Open PVP and Non-instance unrestricted player housing probably don't bother you the same way they bother me. You want what you want, and I want what I want... and THAT'S FINE... but for the love of Godm STOP pretending like it's because YOU are "Veteran MMO" player, and they rest of us are just kids that don't know any better. You remember a time before noobie was bastardized into nub? Ha! I remember a time before noobie or any variation there of was in vogue AT ALL.
People have diffrent tastes. Even old-school PC Gaming vets like you and me. I understand why you are bored and dissappointed by what out there right now, and I hope something comes along that does what you want it to... and when it does, I may not like it. This has nothing to do with how expirienced either of us are, or who's opinion is superior to whos. I'm not even going to say my opinons aren't wierd because I play the same game as however-the-fuck millions of other people play WoW (several million of which are in China paying considerably less than I do to play a completely different version of the game BTW) because I could care less. I play it because I enjoy it. That's all that matters. Lord knows, if I'm in the majority of opinion on MMOs (not that I'm suggesting I necessarily am), I'm not on several other issues.
So yeah, bottum line, what I'm trying to get acrossed here: OP, you need to get over yourself. Your taste in MMOs does not make you a better person. It does not even make you a better gamer. It does not even make you a better MMO player.
Active: WoW
Semi-retired: STO
Fully retired: UO, EQ, AC, SWG, FFXI, DDO:EU, PoTBS, AoC, EvE
Tried: EQ2, Tabula Rasa, Auto-Assault, Isteria, LotRO, Wizard 101
Looking forward to: Star Citizen
By gods, the op is 25 and he is complaining about the younger generation of gamers...damn, that makes me a grandpa (at 35).
I like the spirit of the OP if it's about nostalgia. Otherwise, the younger freedom geek (i.e not married with kids or with a needy gf) generation...there is NOTHING stopping you from playing Call of Cthulhu, D&D, Paranoia, Twilight 2000 etc paper & dice style. If you're true geek and have the time, then you will play em. old school and use mmorpgs only as a weak alternative. The real deal is and will always be paper & dice.
Us old timers (lol, 35) only play mmos cos we moved away from home cities (me in Japan, but from Edinburgh), had family, and could no longer paper and dice like when we were young.
You claim to be hardcore with no excuses (family, split from hometown) then crack open them dice and play face to face.
Regards
Melmoth
edited from grammar
NotNiceDino- I really value your opinion as another vet gamer. Its nice to hear another point of view. Sam n Max hit the road brings back so many great memories. And the kings quest series.
I also want to tell you whole heartedly I am not trying place myself above anyone else in this thread. I am saying thier is a group of us vets that do feel a bit like the industry was sold out beneath us in favor of a larger less deticated market. By less deticated I mean a more fickle(i think thats how you spell it I've actually never typed that word before) audience that doesn't really know what its like to have limited gaming choices.
This works against us as PC gamers because developers are really trying to appease them. By doing so things are rushed and the features are suffering.
So they want a game with no grind, quests that don't feel like a grind, easy leveling, full open sandbox pvp, with awesome gear but the game is not gear centric. This cannot exist. It is too many contradictions in one game and what happens is something like warhammer. (If you like warhammer thats great)
The devs are trying to satisfy a very fickle audience whos needs change as they experience what they actually wanted. So what we get as PC gamers- Sequals to formulas that worked (sometimes good sometimes bad, how many war sims do we really need?)
Then the MMO's, this has become something so awful and wasteful. PoTBS and TR come out and people saying the whole time "this is what I want." Then the game comes out and we start to hear "wait some of these features don't work like they did in my imagination." To the inevitable "this game sux I didn't even finish my free month, whens darkfall gonna come out?"
We are on the road to failure with the short bus leading the way. I do have hope, but we gotta get that short bus off the lead.
Agree with OP 110%.Oh and thanks for letting me know I'm not the only old fool still left out here that has played RoTT.
Well... I kinda beg to differ. I am a gamer vet myself, played games from the early Commodore 64 days, so I know well what hardships games used to be. I recall fantasy games like the first Ultimas, and god I LOVED them. But I changed WITH the games, I didnt stay as I were, and god forbid I dont want to see games with hardships like in 1983!
As for MMOs... they are, at least for me, a totally different category. When I was still entirely focussed on single player games, I heard about MMOs when UO and EQ1 were new. So I asked friends about them, I tried their accounts out to see what it was like - and I hated it. I really, totally hated everything of it, because at that time single player games had become WAY more comfortable compared to those First Era MMORGPs. The UO player killing, the DAYS of boss mob camping of EQ, I just saw that as totally boring timesink and nothing like the exciting adventures of the single player games. Why should I be a mere baker in UO when I could be the Avatar in Ultima VII? Why should I wait hours for a boss mob to respawn in EQ1, when all the mobs were MINE in Might and Magic III?
Really, the MMOs back then were only one thing: PA THE TIC. The only thing was the novelty to play with other people instead of alone, and that novelty made many endure hardships which otherwise no sane person would accept. You just didnt know better back then, its that simple. I am not saying everything is golden now and better, but dont want a heck back of the old MMOs. They were clumsy, elitarian and a pain in the ass. Only when SWG and EQ2 brought a new kind of MMO experience I was finally willing to enter the MMO train.
And unlike some others I changed with games. What worked for me in 1980 and 1990 and even 2000 just would not work with me today.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Here is another old fart that agrees with the OP 110%
BTW Rise of the Triad was a great game. I remember one of the NPC's in it would beg for his life before you shot him.
Elikal- I agree that what was in the 80's and early 90's wouldnt work today largely because of the monochrome screen thing. Storage was also a problem back then. BUT certain gems did make it through and even though I wouldn't enjoy Zork today as I did then doesn't make me lose respect for the fact that everything now is because those games existed.
As for MMO's I think there is a to each his own aspect of it. I can't speak for all vets. I like to think they al have a similar opinion but they don't. I am however speaking for some of us that are tired of seeing the same crap over and over.
I respect your opinion and I'm glad you posted yet another point of view for us to look at.
I don't think all modern MMo's are bad by the way. I don't do the EQ series but I have the ones I do like. I have a fondness for VG. I think WoW is a well done game but its not for me. The problem is the copycat thing with what is a success. I can't take many more copycat games. It's just getting stupid now.
On a side note I'd like to thank everyone posting for keeping such a long thread so civil. Very nice conversation guys.
I agree completely, i am currently 26 (not that old i hope) and i also grew up with PC games. I see it a bit different somehow, i miss the old games but at the same time i am happy that i change with the flow and don't try to stand firm, i don't want everything the same way that i know.
It's like the grandpas that sit on the bench and crying how good the old times were.
Mech Warrior, EQ1, Dunegeon Keeper, Lords of the Realm... those are the truly great games of the past and I was a bit younger (now 26) than the guy who started this but I started gaming at a much earlier age than the norm was...
I played EQ1 from release day till WoW came out and have been dissapointed in every single game I have played since then. The people drive me nuts and no one cares about anything but their phat lewtz and it drives me batty.
In EQ1 it was all about taking the next mob down or getting into a good grind group or sitting on a list to even level since when you were 40+ at the start of the game you had like 2 decent places to level and both you had ot get on every list and make friends with everyone and their mom so you could get in eventually... that is the stuff I miss about this easy access, make little kids epeen larger type of games they have out today.
That is the difference.. the people in the games have changed so much (because of accessablity) that it is all about ME ME ME and that is why the MMO world is screwed.. as with everything it seems.. the more people interested.. the worse it gets.
if you're interested, this kinda discussion has taken place in great detail over the upcoming starcraft2
(ie with regards to MBS, automine and other "newbie friendly" features)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=19
can't see any huge topics there, think they've been talked to death and closed for ages now, but worth a read
oh, this will start you off
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83173
it's about "dumbing down" of game interfaces
Good points, but don't you think they've brought in a good amount of BOTH of those groups? The harcore competitive group (from FPS and RTS) that wants a no frills, trimmed down MMO that gets straight to the competition and the ultra casual group (with almost no gaming back ground) that doesn't want anything to challenge or slow down their entertainment.
Not really. I don't know of many housewives and seniors who play WoW (though I'm sure there's a few). It's simply too faced paced and aggressive for players who aren't driven gamers. In my experience, a lot of non-traditional gamers liked platforms such as Second Life and ealy SWG specifically because they were "slow paced." It isn't a matter of wanting easier challenges so non-gamers can be on the same par as gamers. It's a matter not partaking in a goal-driven environment at all.
What is there to do in WoW if you aren't doing quests or PvP? Nothing really. So what is there for a housewife who really doesn't care about quests or PvP to find in WoW? Nothing really.
I see what you're saying and I'd agree that there probably aren't many "housewives" who are into end game raiding or competitive PvP. But, I think you're over looking the fact that MMO questing is ridiculously easy, especially if the game has a good amount of solo quests. That's why I think there are plenty of ultra casual players in there, because they just quest at their own pace and never even think about the faster paced end game activities.