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I had intended to respond to this in my original post...
Earlier I asked why debate over this game was so hotly debated and several people brought up a few points that I wanted to address...
Unfortunately the thread was locked.
Anyway, multiple people suggested that the company's handling of this title was vastly different to other MMO titles....
I have to disagree with this point. I've followed some big name titles and some obscure titles and they all share the same basic standards in marketing and community support. Their budgets and markets may be different, but their methods are largely the same -
1. They all release a list of proposed features early on to get market feedback.
2. They all change these feature lists based on market feedback, budget constraints, time constraints, or hardware/programming constraints.
3. They all use vague, open ended terms when talking about their time tables and game capabilities. Target dates are often sketchy at best, and usually not shared at all.
4. They all miss deadlines.
Now a lot of people have claimed this type of behavior reflects bad customer service. I'd have to disagree. Very few industries are as open as the MMORPG industry has been when it comes to sharing product development information. Most industries don't bother to even tell you about the product their working on until it's nearing its market release. Game developers, however, provide pages upon pages of updates, journals, screen shots, concept art, and behind the scenes interviews.
Of course the company gets some market hype doing this, and of course that's the main reason they do it, but anyone who expects any massive project to unfold exactly according to plan is not being realistic. Also, anyone who expects a company to outline all the flaws and setbacks they're encountering is probably expecting too much. This is especially true if the company believes they can remove those flaws before release.
Finding dozzens, even hundreds, of pages outlinging the highlights of product design years before the product is polished enough for release is virtually unheard of in any other market.
Anyway, on to how this relates to Darkfall... I've looked at the information the Devs have provided. It seems very detailed and specific for a game that has not yet been released. There are lots of video clips, screen shots, updates, and interviews, particularly when one considers that the company has a limited budget and is geographically and culturally removed from the major centers where this medium is most often practiced.
I prefer to think of Darkfall as a potentially really good indy foreign fillm. Of course it won't be marketed like a Hollywood blockbuster... It won't look like a Hollywood blockbuster either... that doesn't mean it's not worth seeing.
Comments
Let me give one recent example of how this could have been handled correctly, IMO. Pirates of the Burning Sea. They were all set for what was expected to be an open beta date announcement (the game had been in closed public beta for 6 months). Instead, the devs told the fans they were going to do avatar combat, thought it was important enough to add nearly another year to development. That took balls. Some similar statements from Aventurine would have been appreciated, considering they added 5+ years to the expected release date of 2003.
You are correct, these companies share info because it is good for them. No one expects them to air all their dirty laundry. And if Darkfall delivers, the game will be excellent. How they delivered it, will not, IMO. (I will try not to contribute to any more thread-locking)
No there isn't.
The amount of videos and updates this game has had over almost a decade is a total JOKE.
If you take about 6 Warhammer online Newsletters combined during its development it would literally have more media and info then all that this game has ever released in 7 years.
Smile.
Well i agree many of the aspects of PR and information to the fans could have been alot better from Aventurine...... of course.
I give them a break on this though.
Their first game. Small indy company with less resources to make PR on.
I also agree with this statement from Tasos from their 22th developer Journal, it explains alot of the philosophy Aventurine used over the years according PR-
http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/devjournals/darkfalljournals/2813-Darkfall-Dev-Journal-22-Community-Q-A
"Community: why has Darkfall had such a hard time securing a solid publisher and with the impending release of both age of Conan and Warhammer online aren't you concerned that the game will be unable to maintain a self sustaining profitable player base considering that the other games have giant budgets and giant advertising campaigns.
Tasos Flambouras: In very simple terms, it's not so much as Darkfall having a hard time securing a publisher as it is that publishers have had a hard time securing Darkfall. I'll explain: We do have the capability to self-publish, so the competition to any publishing offer, aside from other offers, is our own plan for self-publication. In our self-publishing scheme we hire the same services that most publishers use so in effect "cutting out the middleman" is usually to our advantage, especially since as a newcomer in the gaming industry it's rare to get a fantastic deal. Furthermore, getting a publishing deal isn't crucial to us in regards to development, and we won't just jump at offers. We have the "luxury" to try to do what's best for the game in this context. That being said, we have been and still are in discussions with publishers who present a good and viable alternative to our self-publishing plan.
Giant budgets and giant advertising campaigns demand giant paydays. We definitely don't need to be a World of Warcraft killer to be successful, but the same may not be true about some of the other games in development. When faced with the question of budget allocation we decided that it's more important for us to first make as good a game as possible and then to market it on its merit. The opposite doesn't work in the long run, and quality would be compromised by taking some of the development resources and throwing them into marketing so we're betting everything on our strength. We couldn't compete with some of the large titles when it comes to marketing since it all comes down to dollars and cents, but we can still make one hell of a game. "
And to be honest, there have been so many developer journals and screenshots and other info on the game that at least for me were enough to say that i have felt very well informed over the years.
No there isn't.
The amount of videos and updates this game has had over almost a decade is a total JOKE.
If you take about 6 Warhammer online Newsletters combined during its development it would literally have more media and info then all that this game has ever released in 7 years.
There is so much information delivered to us from the developers over the years. You cant be informed on the numbers of developer journals we seen over the years. Theres more then enough.
Why dont you go and try to read all these developer journals in a day and then summarize them for me.
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29
You cant. And Aventurine have a unjustiful reputation of not keeping their fans up to date. Of course there could have been more but be fair, look through that news section of forumfall and you'll see there is much more then you realized.
I doubt Warhammer have the same amount of info.
Oh ya we know Tasos.... Taking a few hundred bucks out of your budget to buy a banner ad on mmorpg.com would really affect the quality of your game.
Man they must have a huge budget.
This guy is fucken hilarious. 90% of what this guy says it like verbal idiocy.
No there isn't.
The amount of videos and updates this game has had over almost a decade is a total JOKE.
If you take about 6 Warhammer online Newsletters combined during its development it would literally have more media and info then all that this game has ever released in 7 years.
Right, yet this is due to Aventurine starting real coverage really only lately. However, if you look at the coverage since late summer, it's ok in comparison. Even is there are only 2 videos, one of them is extensive. Even if they don't show that much of the facets of the game, show my any other company that really revealed anything in pre release videos.
How much of a difference would it really be, if they started earlier and would have a host of vastly outdated material out there now? - It wouldn't help the ones awaiting the title in a positive way and it would only be pulled apart for any negative bit by the ones who are on the extreme-anto front.
I totally agree to anyone stating Aventurine could have done far better in marketing and PR, even without putting strain on any further human or monetary resources, but it wouldn't have changed anything for them anyway. This game obviously brings out the worst polarization in either direction, so be it. The generation of Intarwebz scientists needs food, so if DF is serving that purpose, that's not to bad.
If it comes out in a proper way, it will dust off the crap thrown at it, if it don't, others will come.
Amazingly enough, that's something people tend to forget in all the importance they tend to apply to themselves; - there really isn't anything to loose here. None of us had to invest anything, Aventurine didn't ask any of us for their money. We will, as far as we know, all be able to test this game for free, once the time has come and decide thereafter. How, if nothing else, can marketing be any more fair to the customer? Even if they lied like hell in development (which they actually so far are less blameable of than ANY other developer before them), what does it count in the end, if you're able to get a close look yourselves?
It's this sort of instrumentalized ethics that could really make me puke. Ethics are no ethics if you only try to use them in your own favour, - don't try to appear like Ghandi if indeed you act like boulevard-press driven sheep (this is a more general note, by the way, and not directed at the poster I quoted. It's not applicable in this example).
Edit: Fair enough, my footnote wouldn't have been needed, viewing the last post
No there isn't.
The amount of videos and updates this game has had over almost a decade is a total JOKE.
If you take about 6 Warhammer online Newsletters combined during its development it would literally have more media and info then all that this game has ever released in 7 years.
Right, yet this is due to Aventurine starting real coverage really only lately. However, if you look at the coverage since late summer, it's ok in comparison. Even is there are only 2 videos, one of them is extensive. Even if they don't show that much of the facets of the game, show my any other company that really revealed anything in pre release videos.
How much of a difference would it really be, if they started earlier and would have a host of vastly outdated material out there now? - It wouldn't help the ones awaiting the title in a positive way and it would only be pulled apart for any negative bit by the ones who are on the extreme-anto front.
I totally agree to anyone stating Aventurine could have done far better in marketing and PR, even without putting strain on any further human or monetary resources, but it wouldn't have changed anything for them anyway. This game obviously brings out the worst polarization in either direction, so be it. The generation of Intarwebz scientists needs food, so if DF is serving that purpose, that's not to bad.
If it comes out in a proper way, it will dust off the crap thrown at it, if it don't, others will come.
Amazingly enough, that's something people tend to forget in all the importance they tend to apply to themselves; - there really isn't anything to loose here. None of us had to invest anything, Aventurine didn't ask any of us for their money. We will, as far as we know, all be able to test this game for free, once the time has come and decide thereafter. How, if nothing else, can marketing be any more fair to the customer? Even if they lied like hell in development (which they actually so far are less blameable of than ANY other developer before them), what does it count in the end, if you're able to get a close look yourselves?
It's this sort of instrumentalized ethics that could really make me puke. Ethics are no ethics if you only try to use them in your own favour, - don't try to appear like Ghandi if indeed you act like boulevard-press driven sheep (this is a more general note, by the way, and not directed at the poster I quoted. It's not applicable in this example).
Edit: Fair enough, my footnote wouldn't have been needed, viewing the last post
A very good reply.
Oh ya we know Tasos.... Taking a few hundred bucks out of your budget to buy a banner ad on mmorpg.com would really affect the quality of your game.
Man they must have a huge budget.
This guy is fucken hilarious. 90% of what this guy says it like verbal idiocy.
A few hundred?
You have no idea the sums the bigger and more wealthy companies spend on PR. Aventurine did the right thing when they decided to make the game as good as possible and let it live on it's strength.
At the moment I count 242 dev updates (even though a few of them were little more than "sorry for the delay but we're a bit busy"), 616 screenshots, and a little more than an hour of footage. From the look of the site it seems that real production of the current incarnation of the game didn't start until some time in 2003.
Maybe it's only because I haven't been hovering over this title since day one (as I said earlier I first heard about it in 05 and I didn't spend much time ever going back to it until about mid 08) but it seems like that's a lot of information for six to seven years.
Speaking of which, six to seven years sounds like a fairly reasonable timeframe for an indie company to get itself off the ground, develop a stable engine, and then put together a large MMO. It's a bit longer than average, sure, but even big companies with pre-existing game engines to modify and already established teams of talented artists and programers to draw upon take around three years to release a title, and most of those could usually stand to see a bit more development time.
I hate delays and periods of information blackouts just as much as the next guy, and I'm not foolish enough to assume that the feature list they started with in 03 will be the same they launch with on 09. This seems to be common throughout the industry though... It's the price you pay for being allowed to see some of the development process. These issues don't turn the forums into flame wars in other games though... why do they do so here?
Aye 242 dev updates is ALOT.
No there isn't.
The amount of videos and updates this game has had over almost a decade is a total JOKE.
If you take about 6 Warhammer online Newsletters combined during its development it would literally have more media and info then all that this game has ever released in 7 years.
yay that was done with a pr departmeant and bigger budget