Yeah, you needed THREE CCs to work. How much fun was it first time one ran into a hunter trap, and trap resisted? Hunter ended up kiting the damn thing around the room a few times. And the shackle? Shackles broke all the goddamn time, LONG before their timer was up (I did shackle duty on that, and sometimes it would break in 10-15 seconds). That means you had at a minimum 3 competent CC and 2 competent tanks, and 2 good healers (or 3 competent ones, if you were 3 healering it). Now we are getting somewhere. Ok, the hunter. You don't lay down the trap when you pull. You lay down the trap well ahead of the pull so that if the mob resists you immediately drop another one. I don't think I've ever seen a mob resist twice in a row. The priest NEVER waits for the shackle to break. You reshackle every 10 to 15 seconds regardless. It only takes a second and requires very little mana. Then you still have Paladins that can fear although that's a bit risky if they run too far and reset it, but it works in a pinch if the Hunter or Priest screws it up. And you don't need 3 CC's you only need 2 because 1 mob is being DPS'd down and your off tank is tanking 1 add while doing double duty by hitting Moroes from time to time so that in case your main tank loses aggro, the off tank picks it up just enough for the main tank to get it back. You won't need more than 2 healers if the others do their job unless one of the healers is a bit weak. Yes we used Vent, no, I have no idea what you're babbling on about. Prince was harder? We downed prince the first night we met him. Took us two wipes to learn the fight, then he was farm status (except for butt meteor locations, those were funny). You got lucky. If you get bad drops, it's nearly impossible to complete no matter what your gear. It's a crapshoot. I've downed Prince maybe 10 or 15 times and at least half the time it took more than once and we had good gear by the time we were farming Prince. And we knew what we were doing. Moroes was just cruel to guilds learning raiding. I have no idea why he wasn't AFTER Opera (an amazing, fun, great event that would have been a good way to introduce people to the fun parts of raiding). Should have been Attunman, Maiden, Opera, Moroes, Caretaker, then the last half. Having most people encounter Moroes second was just silly. I won't argue with you on the order, it could have been that way and been just fine too, but we never had any more trouble with Moroes than any of those others in the first half of Kara even without the gear. Curator and beyond we definately had more trouble with if we didn't have the gear. And yes, I said it was all easier than Moroes UNTIL Nightbane, if you were paying attention. Nightbane was quite a bit harder than Moroes, and obviously the REAL raids had much harder fights than that. I misunderstood what you said. When you said "everything from Moreos to frikkin Nightbane easier than downing Moroes without epics". I thought you meant everything in the instance, not just till you hit Nightbane. We actually rarely did Nightbane in order, we almost always waited till last to do him because he was such a pain. I thnk that is where we got off on the wrong track. I thought you were saying that Moroes was the toughest in Kara. My bad. My point was that Kara was a shit introduction to raiding. Second hardest encounter to learn a non-optional second encounter (at least Netherspite, which could also be wiped by one moron (and was also easier than Moroes) was optional), and then the kicker. You have 11-14 people you've been raiding with, made friends with, joked with in Vent, and oh hey, now you're thrown under a bus because you need to recruit a good 15 more people and gear them up to go to SSC and TK. Idiotic. Sure, the hardcore raiders easily cleared Kara then started real raids, but as an introduction? Fail. Pure fail. Well maybe the reasons we ran Kara were different from yours. We didn't run Kara to teach people HOW to raid, most of them were already used to doing MC or Onyxia or AQ20 or something that came way before Kara. Rather we ran Kara with people that didn't have the gear for raiding at lvl 70. We would take 7 or 8 with decent gear and then maybe 2 or 3 with nothing but greens and gear them up in Kara. And we didn't have just 11-14 members, we had 30 or 40, so we would run 2 or 3 Kara's lead by 2 or 3 different people. Everyone loved going to Kara because of the badges so even if you didn't need any gear it was still fun and you got something out of it. Let's just say we agree to disagree.
Now we are getting somewhere. Ok, the hunter. You don't lay down the trap when you pull. You lay down the trap well ahead of the pull so that if the mob resists you immediately drop another one. I don't think I've ever seen a mob resist twice in a row. The priest NEVER waits for the shackle to break. You reshackle every 10 to 15 seconds regardless. It only takes a second and requires very little mana. Then you still have Paladins that can fear although that's a bit risky if they run too far and reset it, but it works in a pinch if the Hunter or Priest screws it up. And you don't need 3 CC's you only need 2 because 1 mob is being DPS'd down and your off tank is tanking 1 add while doing double duty by hitting Moroes from time to time so that in case your main tank loses aggro, the off tank picks it up just enough for the main tank to get it back. You won't need more than 2 healers if the others do their job unless one of the healers is a bit weak. Yes. It was a pain in the ass. I told you I was on shackle duty. As for the mob being DPSed down, most needed to be tanked at the same time. Our kill order was usually holy shit (yeah, you could let the priest run around), goddamn shadow dickhead, and then the fury guy (pray you got the prot moron). Nevermind the obnoxious holy pally cleansing shackle... You seem to think we never got Moroes down. No, we cleared Kara. ZA too. We never had much success in SSC or TK because we could never get 25 competent people (I actually quit for a while I was so frustrated with trying to get a raid on SSC going). I'm just saying it was a shittakular introduction to raiding, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to reevaluate what happened to other guilds who went thro You got lucky. If you get bad drops, it's nearly impossible to complete no matter what your gear. It's a crapshoot. I've downed Prince maybe 10 or 15 times and at least half the time it took more than once and we had good gear by the time we were farming Prince. Oh yeah, bad drops are bad drops, but and there's no question we got lucky that first night (I think that kill we had to move... once... maybe twice (it's been a while). I still maintain the fight was easy. Phase 1, take a nap. Phase 2, run in, run out, healers have to pay more attention. Phase 3, cross fingers, blow cooldowns, and dps like all hell. I won't argue with you on the order, it could have been that way and been just fine too, but we never had any more trouble with Moroes than any of those others in the first half of Kara even without the gear. Curator and beyond we definately had more trouble with if we didn't have the gear. I still don't get curator. Once we bitched the DPS out to actually have the damn macro (turned out two of them were convinced they were Captain lightningfingers and could click target (not even tab) we cleared him pretty easy. Yeah, you needed some gear, but we had gear. Other guilds told us it was a long, hard battle to clear it. We met him for the first time on our second raid night of the week, we had him down next reset. He wasn't that hard.
I misunderstood what you said. When you said "everything from Moreos to frikkin Nightbane easier than downing Moroes without epics". I thought you meant everything in the instance, not just till you hit Nightbane. We actually rarely did Nightbane in order, we almost always waited till last to do him because he was such a pain. I thnk that is where we got off on the wrong track. I thought you were saying that Moroes was the toughest in Kara. My bad. Yeah, sorry. Nightbane was tougher, no ifs, ands, or buts. It wasn't even gear, that fight was just TOUGH. I still maintain that Nightbane was the proper final boss of the instance, Prince was just Russian Roulette. Well maybe the reasons we ran Kara were different from yours. We didn't run Kara to teach people HOW to raid, most of them were already used to doing MC or Onyxia or AQ20 or something that came way before Kara. Rather we ran Kara with people that didn't have the gear for raiding at lvl 70. We would take 7 or 8 with decent gear and then maybe 2 or 3 with nothing but greens and gear them up in Kara. And we didn't have just 11-14 members, we had 30 or 40, so we would run 2 or 3 Kara's lead by 2 or 3 different people. Everyone loved going to Kara because of the badges so even if you didn't need any gear it was still fun and you got something out of it. Let's just say we agree to disagree. Um, we had to teach people how to raid. We unfortunately only had people who could Raid Ony, MC, and AQ 20. We learned what most of us had suspected - half the raid was dead from the neck up during most raids (actually we learned this on Razorgore... on razorgore... on razorgore... gods almighty). We had two Kara groups, only one of us was lead by competent people, and one of them was lead by a self-rightous dickhole, so we were downing Curator and Aran (yeah, we got both same night) while they were wiping on Moroes. Then they split us up to stop the tension so we didn't have A group and B group and I got to go help the B people with moroes because I was the best holy priest and could shackle, and their healers were about as useful as a sack of bricks. So then A group could no longer progress past Aran, because some people COULDN'T STAY STILL IN FLAME WREATH. Once the raid leader in group A started punting anyone who wiped the raid twice on flame wreath (this was controversial because our guild had a strict 'help eachother out, no one can say anything bad about anyone' policy, which kind of breaks down when our screens are exploding in WTF FLAME WREATH) that got better. Meanwhile I was leading the other raid, while arguing with the dick raid leader who was absolutely convinced he could do Moroes (hint: They had been there 3 weeks). I actually, somehow, got them past Curator. Our stopping point turned out to be Illhoof, for no apparent reason, until I worked out that I was the only person who knew how to switch targets out of our 3 healers, and that therefore I had been doing every bit of non-tank healing in every encounter except for curator where the druid had been trying to throw hots around. I still lack any explanation for this. Then I informed the other raid leader that unless he got me the hell out of there I would personally tell each and every person in that raid exactly what I thought of them. My leaving resulted in them being unable to clear Curator (though they somehow got Moroes down after 4 wipes, I blame black magic). This lead to another hissy fit, and about 8 people leaving the guild. About a month after this point we somehow had enough geared people to down Gruul and lurch our way into SSC (strangely, eliminating the other raid leader and his pals sped up progression significantly), where I promptly learned we had not eliminated enough deadweight, as I sat in the water and watched 15 people similtaniously go flying about 4000 yards. Eventually, after watching our hilarious performance on that fight (protip: Not actually that funny) I decided I had better things to do with my time, like bowling, or watching paint dry. Rejoined about a two months before WotLK released, and I am now with a different guild. Got to at least see some Hyjal, some BT (not much BT). I was hilariously undergeared, but a friend in the guild vouched for me (she knew me from my old guild). We had a guild we were 'allied with' and we could do both instances (or at least could after the nerf, I think they were stuck on some encounter before Illidan pre-nerf). We too are all friends. And if one of our friends has had too much to drink, or needs some rest, and can't follow simple instructions, we suggest he gets some extra rest. So far, we've had two members quit, but about 10 more join, and we're enjoying ourselves quite a lot in Naxx. We also raid two nights a week, and we damn near have the place cleared. No, I don't have 18 warglaves and all the PvP gear or whatever that other poser (oops, I meant poster) who plays a rogue has.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
WoW definetly had to make the game a little easier so people will come and level faster and hopefully get to endgame which atm isnt very good. Blizzard will pick it up though by making the heroics harder I gaurantee it.
Forget it heroic will never get buffed , nerfed to crap if anything . The game is extreme easy mod now . Nothinh for real gamer who like challenge . Im 74 right now and i cant stand the quest grind anymore im just doing pvp on my twink . After doing naxx 40 man in hard mod i dont think i can handle super watered easy mod naxx anyway .
Agreeing 100% with the OP, but i do understand why people still defend WoW and enjoy it. I also respec their views on the game. However, for anyone who has played from pre-bc up to now, that has been able to have a fair amount of success on one or more chars, both pve and pvp, this game has lost some of its charm. I understand not everyone has the time to invest countless hours in raiding, grinding and whatnot, but to me that's not a reason for a game to reward everyone in a similar fashion. This is a mmorpg, it's a competitive game, played by many. This is no solo game. People that are better at the game (either through basic talent or improvement over time) should have better gear.. gear that is indeed inaccessible to people that don't know how to play as well or don't have as much time.
There needs to be gear that most people can't have, that's the objective of a competitive game. it is simply wrong that keyboard turners that acquire a full S2 set, that is mind you very powerful (from full S2 to full S4, there are good differences, but not THAT much), can 3-4 shot me in a WSG because they caught me off guard. That should just not happen, these people shouldn't have that gear, period. Similar analogies can be made about PvE as well. ZG was awarding blues, was a 20 men (some became epics though at one point) and wasn't exactly a cake walk at the beginning, when people weren't all familiar with the fights and everything (ok it wasn't hard, but the gear was Blue). Now everything is handed out. S***, nerfed SSC and TK felt easier than early ZG.
You play less, you don't get as good epics as i do, that's it (i haven't played much lately due to work, i'm simply making a general case, excluding myself for now to preserve coherence). For someone who's been playing for a long time, who's been a good player, both individually and team based, to see every kind of clueless noobs run around with all these purples, it is alienating. Most old school players are out of this game. Many actually turned away when they introced the crappy new raid numbers (10 and 25).
Putting negativity aside for now, i will admit WoW is a pretty cool game, especially for people that haven't been playing for long or have never really invested a lot of time in it. I don't think anyone has the right to judge what people do with their own life in this day and age and it's fine by me if you like the game the way it is right now. But, you will eventually come to the same conclusions as the WoW haters on these forums one day, without a doubt. You will get there, the same way most people don't understand at 1st that it's better to let a premade roll you in 4 minutes and re-Q then it is to try and waste time. It's fun to try at 1st, but once that is said and done, you want honor and don't give a shit about "trying" (that is when you're pugging BGs of course).
So WoW haters, lay off the anger. Most of these people (not all so don't get back at me using your own situation) haven't played enough yet to realise that. And for f***'s sake, people, stop using the 11 mil w/e subs argument. "Majority of the mob" is NOT a valid point when discussing quality of a mmo.
Comments
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
Forget it heroic will never get buffed , nerfed to crap if anything . The game is extreme easy mod now . Nothinh for real gamer who like challenge . Im 74 right now and i cant stand the quest grind anymore im just doing pvp on my twink . After doing naxx 40 man in hard mod i dont think i can handle super watered easy mod naxx anyway .
Agreeing 100% with the OP, but i do understand why people still defend WoW and enjoy it. I also respec their views on the game. However, for anyone who has played from pre-bc up to now, that has been able to have a fair amount of success on one or more chars, both pve and pvp, this game has lost some of its charm. I understand not everyone has the time to invest countless hours in raiding, grinding and whatnot, but to me that's not a reason for a game to reward everyone in a similar fashion. This is a mmorpg, it's a competitive game, played by many. This is no solo game. People that are better at the game (either through basic talent or improvement over time) should have better gear.. gear that is indeed inaccessible to people that don't know how to play as well or don't have as much time.
There needs to be gear that most people can't have, that's the objective of a competitive game. it is simply wrong that keyboard turners that acquire a full S2 set, that is mind you very powerful (from full S2 to full S4, there are good differences, but not THAT much), can 3-4 shot me in a WSG because they caught me off guard. That should just not happen, these people shouldn't have that gear, period. Similar analogies can be made about PvE as well. ZG was awarding blues, was a 20 men (some became epics though at one point) and wasn't exactly a cake walk at the beginning, when people weren't all familiar with the fights and everything (ok it wasn't hard, but the gear was Blue). Now everything is handed out. S***, nerfed SSC and TK felt easier than early ZG.
You play less, you don't get as good epics as i do, that's it (i haven't played much lately due to work, i'm simply making a general case, excluding myself for now to preserve coherence). For someone who's been playing for a long time, who's been a good player, both individually and team based, to see every kind of clueless noobs run around with all these purples, it is alienating. Most old school players are out of this game. Many actually turned away when they introced the crappy new raid numbers (10 and 25).
Putting negativity aside for now, i will admit WoW is a pretty cool game, especially for people that haven't been playing for long or have never really invested a lot of time in it. I don't think anyone has the right to judge what people do with their own life in this day and age and it's fine by me if you like the game the way it is right now. But, you will eventually come to the same conclusions as the WoW haters on these forums one day, without a doubt. You will get there, the same way most people don't understand at 1st that it's better to let a premade roll you in 4 minutes and re-Q then it is to try and waste time. It's fun to try at 1st, but once that is said and done, you want honor and don't give a shit about "trying" (that is when you're pugging BGs of course).
So WoW haters, lay off the anger. Most of these people (not all so don't get back at me using your own situation) haven't played enough yet to realise that. And for f***'s sake, people, stop using the 11 mil w/e subs argument. "Majority of the mob" is NOT a valid point when discussing quality of a mmo.
Ignore the typos please.