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Improper labelling of PvP and PvE
kaydinv
Member Posts: 208
I want to set this straight, because so many people (especially casuals) are mislabelling MMO's.
Darkfall /= a PvP game
Whatever could I mean? Well, here's the thing, people go around claiming that Darkfall will be the "FFA PvP" game that some people have been waiting for.
It's not.
The problem with this statement that flies around like regurgitated bullshit is that Darkfall is a game with FFA PvP (supposedly). This doesn't make it an FFA PvP game. Sorry, that's not how things work.
Darkfall may have FFA PvP as a "feature," but the idea behind it and all sandbox games is to allow this type of content, instead of restricting it. When you say, "Darkfall is an FFA PvP MMORPG," you sound like a tremendous asshat that doesn't realize the game is scheduled to release with:
-PvE(PvM) Content
-Crafting
-Resource Gathering
Etc...
For this reason, WoW is as much a "PvP" game as Darkfall is. That's because neither of them are simply "PvP" games, yet they both have that feature. If Darkfall was being designed primarily around that idea, than it might be worth throwing that statement out every now and then. Since it is a sandbox game though, the most important "feature" of this game is how not having a hardcoded restriction of this type will work with the rest of the game and how all of this will come together to form some type of enticing gameplay.
Darkfall isn't the only game that gets labelled as either this (PvE) or that (PvP), but it's the best example of this common misusage. If you don't understand all of this by now, then there's no hope for you. You're the same type of person that falls for gimmicks like Fatalities and RvR.
The reason this is important is because so many people are under the impression that Darkfall will be about running around and killing eachother endlessly and that all the mechanics of the game will revolve around that concept. We don't know how all of games features will play out, but we have no reason to believe that the entire game revolves around FFA PvP as much as it simply has the "feature" available.
Note that some people will still just run around and PK endlessly. It won't be the same for everyone person though, and that's the beauty of sandbox games.
_________________________________
"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
Comments
Games with that ruleset tend to attract PKers, which is why people refer to them as PvP games -- more aptly would be PK games. No PK game has ever lacked other content, but still the reason *most* of the players are there is the PvP, so it seems fair to see that as the main feature. It's certainly the main "attraction" for most.
Thanks for the clarification. I did not know you were in charge of MMO classifications. Where can I find further information on this subject?
The OP totally confused me, which was perhaps his intention. Is Darkfall a open PvP only game or not? If there are PvE servers are they really zoned PvP servers as is the tradition these days?
What the OP is saying is that Darkfall offers open pvp, but it does not only offer open pvp. Just like they say on their website...
"Is Darkfall a Player vs. Player (PvP) game?
Calling Darkfall a PvP game would be selling it short. Of course there's going to be a lot of PvP combat and the combat gameplay will be as fast paced and fun as a first person shooter, but the focus of the game is kingdom building, clan warfare, and conquest. The battles will be epic and will require a lot more than just PvP skill to be won. Darkfall is as much a social, a real-time strategy, and a fantasy role playing game, as it is a PvP game."
... and no there will not be PvE servers which they also say on their website under their FAQ.
To the OP... as the wiki states under the definition of PvP... "PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other." When people label a game as open PvP or RvR others don't generally assume it only offers that aspect. You can't dismiss that there are no safe zones or PvE servers making open PvP a very big part of this game and deserving such a label. Take a deep breath and relax... labels are thrown around losely all across the web.
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A work in progress: (Update: 08/09/10)Easily find your favorite type of MMO
PvP - especially open FFA PvP of the type in Eve, and that we'll see soon in Darkfall, tends to really polarize a game's community.
FFA PvP is a magnet for griefers. Done right, it also attracts people who want a game world they can exert real influence over. These two kinds of people tend to get along rather well when it comes to killing each other, and the latter type will generally move the game is a positive direction if it is properly supported by its devs. An FFA PvP game is a sandbox almost by definition, since if there's nothing worthwhile to fight over the entire game just devolves into a huge pointless gankfest.
However, these kinds of games are not attractive at all to people who want to PvE and not be bothered while they're doing it. Since this kind of gamer represents the majority of PvE'ers, the pure PvE community tends to either stay away or not stay long if they try it out.
In a nutshell, if a game has FFA PvP it's going to be (rightly) labelled as a pvp game. All the other stuff is what makes the difference between a pvp game that works and a pvp game that turns into a griefer-infested hellhole nobody else wants to touch.
Such folks r-e-a-l-l-y need to play FPS games, as that's what they do: FULL PvP 24/7, with p-l-e-n-t-y of players to kill (and be killed by).
Problem with MMO PvP is that it's not even skill based. Griefing is so common because there's really no way a level 10 can kill a level 100, as MMOs put their eggs into the gear basket. Get the gear, only at or near level can kill you.
FPS games (truest of PvP games), it doesn't matter if you're a General with a 1000.000 K/D ratio, some buck private can and will shoot you in your shorts and you will DIE!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I wouldn't go into Darkfall next month thinking its not a PvP game. You might be in for a suprise.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
There are games with PvP as a feature, and there are PvP games...WoW is an example of a game with PvP as a feature, generally its a PvE game for raiding and instancing, but there are added BG's and Arenas...theres also a horrible attempt at open world PvP, which is made even worse by the worst death system ever invented (graveyard/corpse returning). Then there are games with PvP integrated right into them, ie: you want to do this dungeon, well so does someone else, you'll have to fight for it, or you want to kill this raid boss, well so does another clan/faction, you're gonna have to fight for it, you want to exp in this spot? someone is already there, fight.
I'm generally a PvP freak, which is why I like PvP based games (EVE, Lineage 2, Aion, etc...)..There's so many games out there trying to be a mix of everything, but they just end up lacking in each of those aspects (WoW)..I'd rather play a game based on what I like, than one thats trying to accomidate everything.
And the main deterrence for most others. ;-)
Im not gonne argue with OP becouse he dont get it and prolly never will.
But WoW and Darkfall are 2 totally different pvp games.
WoW have savezones instance and no penalty when killed in pvp.
Darkfall have no savezones no instance world is 100% open and full loot when your killed in pvp.
Darkfall is 100% build around pvp but also have hardcore pve and crafting and more.
WoW have pvp as after thought is essentially a pve game with pvp as bonus its casual and carebear main purpose playing WoW is pve crafting is also very casual.
Darkfall= Free For All pvp Fulloot
WoW=PVE with pvp as mini game with no risk.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I agree 110% with the OP. I was even considering starting a topic with this same idea in mind.
UO was never called a PvP game it was simply a game where you could kill other people if that was you objective. Many people chose not too. I honestly don't think open "PvP" should have ever been taken out of MMO's.
People imagine this gigantic gankfest with the masses suffering and dying and crying. These kind of games are what you make of them. If I get this game I will play as an Anti-PKer. I like to protect the weak. I think people are forgetting that there will be more to do in this game besides kill each other.
The world will be decided by the players.
P.S. "All you go play a FPS game" people are so off base it is redicules.
You might be correct with your details, but why do you have to call people names to get your point across? Show some god damned maturity.
You might be correct with your details, but why do you have to call people names to get your point across? Show some god damned maturity.
He's referring to a group of people who are, in fact, doing the thing he's describing. So get a band-aid for those over sensitive feelings, he wasn't insulting anyone.
I think the OP is being a bit too specific, honestly. Yes, the game isn't only a FFA PvP game. It has other features as well (and it's being sold as something so wonderful and perfect that I doubt Aventurine can pull it off, especially for the picky, complaining crowd of this site). I think that FFA PvP is just a very major feature of the game because it's so rare in the genre. Yeah the malevolent "I'm going to kill you all day because I can and it makes me feel good. Suck it" people need a home too (why they don't go to FPSs, I don't know). They're the vocal majority, so they're selling the game as an awesome FFA PvP fest where you can kill someone and take their stuff. Only to have it all be lost when someone snipes you from a tree. Great! That's the risk that they're in such drunken love with I suppose.
Darkfall is an MMO(RPG) with a FFA PvP aspect. Okay, that's the real technical definition maybe, but for convience's sake, people tend to label it using their favorite feature.
You might be correct with your details, but why do you have to call people names to get your point across? Show some god damned maturity.
He's referring to a group of people who are, in fact, doing the thing he's describing. So get a band-aid for those over sensitive feelings, he wasn't insulting anyone.
I think the OP is being a bit too specific, honestly. Yes, the game isn't only a FFA PvP game. It has other features as well (and it's being sold as something so wonderful and perfect that I doubt Aventurine can pull it off, especially for the picky, complaining crowd of this site). I think that FFA PvP is just a very major feature of the game because it's so rare in the genre. Yeah the malevolent "I'm going to kill you all day because I can and it makes me feel good. Suck it" people need a home too (why they don't go to FPSs, I don't know). They're the vocal majority, so they're selling the game as an awesome FFA PvP fest where you can kill someone and take their stuff. Only to have it all be lost when someone snipes you from a tree. Great! That's the risk that they're in such drunken love with I suppose.
Darkfall is an MMO(RPG) with a FFA PvP aspect. Okay, that's the real technical definition maybe, but for convience's sake, people tend to label it using their favorite feature.
I think we could all use more of Miss Manners and less of the forum griefing.
Darkfall is a PvP game.
- You gather materials. why? to craft. Why craft? to make armour/weapons to aid in PvP combat.
- You join clans. Why? to either protect you from PvP combat or to join in on PvP combat.
- You make cities. Why? To be protected from PvP combat and to have somewhere to stash your stuff so you are ready for the next PvP battle.
- You kill mobs. Why? To skill up so you are better at PvP combat.
Everything you can do in the game eventually comes down to PvP combat no matter what. So I would say it is a PvP game.
Let me try to do it for you, if Im wrong correct me and show me what your point is without rambling.
There are two types of PvP games. Socio-Political and balanced/controlled PvP. In the former camp come games like UO/EVE/Shadowbane/Darkfall in the latter camp comes your FPS Shooters and the only semi-MMO game to accomplish this, GW or Fury at a further stretch. If you want no PvE content, no grinding, no resource control, no PvE in an artificial dev controlled environment then you want the latter. There is no way to make a arena equally balanced PvP game without PvE, grind focused content. Its one or the other.
I laughed out loud. It was a seriously confusing post, trying to explain something, which then said if you don't understand the explanation, which was non existent, then you are really confused. Which I was.
OP hits you for 1500 points of confusion. What game is this? Where am I?
Lots of interesting replies to this, but this one takes the cake for proving my point. Labelling games like Darkfall as a "PvP Game" convinces people that the game revolves around that aspect, when it most certainly does not have to.
_________________________________
"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
While that may be the case for you, it most certainly will not be the case for every single person that plays Darkfall in the months to come. When I played UO, I only PvPd when I was attacked by Reds. Everything else I did, from your list, I was doing for totally different reason. For example, I crafted weapons/armor for my guildmates so that they could use them against...MONSTERS. Yeah, that's right, for PvE. So no, you're wrong, and this is the misconception I was speaking of. People have it in their heads that FFA PvP = Counter-Strike the MMORPG. That's not the case.
Also, I'm sure the people that are against FFA PvP, are the same type of people that have this misconception. They think this feature will automatically turn the game into a "gankfest," which isn't necessarily true.
_________________________________
"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
Lots of interesting replies to this, but this one takes the cake for proving my point. Labelling games like Darkfall as a "PvP Game" convinces people that the game revolves around that aspect, when it most certainly does not have to.
yes it does have to. If you leave your home city at all, you will be ganked constantly. So yes, the entire game is about pvp.
Lots of interesting replies to this, but this one takes the cake for proving my point. Labelling games like Darkfall as a "PvP Game" convinces people that the game revolves around that aspect, when it most certainly does not have to.
yes it does have to. If you leave your home city at all, you will be ganked constantly. So yes, the entire game is about pvp.
That statement is condratictory to dev statements. They have specifically said that the game is not just about PvP and you will be able to avoid PvP (on the whole) if you want.
In other words...
1. Gankfest.
2. Crafting, and if any storyline exists, is just pasted on as an after thought.
Why do FPS style players not just play FPS games??? They're not into the RPG in the MMO (often discuss it only as MMO), anyway.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
How can you already define Darkfall when the game is yet to go live and there's little to no info online about it yet.
Most people will consider Darkfall to be PVP. I'm really having trouble getting your point.
If it looks like a duck
and walks like a duck
and quacks like a duck
It is a duck