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Not one Big 3 Bailout thread?
wonderwhoits
Member Posts: 128
I find this unbelievable but I just went back 3 pages and unless Im missing something between chinamen with ear destroying kisses, republicans and blackberrys, guns and help with counterstrike... no one is pissed off that congress sat on the auto loans?
I guess people outside of Michigan really do not understand the economic implications should these companies, their suppliers who are the suppliers of the foreign companies as well, the data services people, the dealership people, the business that serve the aforementioned businesses, etc. ad infinitum all get hit from the fallout if one or more of these companies fail.
The Bush camp itself estimates it could cost nearly 2 million jobs.
The failure of the deal itself is blamed on the union not taking wage cuts when actual wages are $26/hr for senior workers and $15/hr for new hires- those inflated figures approaching $80/hr include all benefits for current workers AND the cost of people who have ALREADY RETIRED.
That's bullshit. No loan unless you take away people's retirement? If you tried to take away social security the greatest generation would take up armed revolution and overthrow the government in a week. They'd get it done quicker but old folks need naps and frequently forget what it was they were doing. They would be pissed... but the UAW has to cut wages and benefits- turning retirees into walmart greeters- TO KEEP THEIR JOBS?
Did congress demand the bankers take a paycut? Hell no- they went on F'ing vacation to a 5 star resort to live it up poolside; and the story faded from the news in 2 days. Congress threw 700 billion to the financials without hesitation when they had nobody else to blame for their poor investments but themselves. The big 3 were undergoing restructuring and it's just shitty timing for Americans to stop buying cars. Even Honda sales are down 30% this year. It's not their fault they are running out of cash right now- and even if you wanted to assign blame to them; the quantification of their responsibility for their mess would pale in comparison to stupidity of the financial companies.
I don't even have an auto industry job, hell I don't even like the UAW or factory rats in general- but I live in Michigan and I simply can't avoid hearing about this non-stop... and if you did you should be pissed off too. You should be as pissed off as you were after 9/11. Bring out the american flags and the fear-fed patriotism.... because the collapse of the domestic automotive industry and the severance of it's far reaching tendrils to the american economy WILL affect you- and worse than foreign terrorists ever could have hoped.
Jesus tap dancing Christ!
Comments
i dont like any bailout, what they should have done was give all that bailout money (what 700+ Billion?) to the people, and i'm positive it would have found its way back to the banks, auto people, and anybody else who needed to be bailed out.
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Well normally the big 3 could get a LOAN from a BANK but since all the financial companies have their heads up their collective asses- destroying the credit markets- the only place the big 3 can get the loans they are seeking is from uncle sam.
5% interet for the first 5 years and 9% interest thereafter- that was the loan in the deal. Hardly free money. I just can't believe they decided all those middle class jobs weren't worth a paltry 14 billion when they are giving away cash like it's going out of style. The nerve of those assholes. I wish all these whiney little republicans who are gone in january would just GTFO already.
That is what YOU have to pay DIRECTLY.
We are talking, at least, 7 to 8 TRILLION dollars INDIRECTLY YOU will owe when the banks, at their discretion, and for their own purposes, decide to unleash credit, capital, and liqudity.
The indirect inflation costs will reduce YOUR assets, possessions by at least 50%.*
*Worse: In reducing YOUR assets through central economic planning, the will purchase cheap assets, whose value is reduce due to a recession/depression; they will look like heroes. My God, the man wiill say, the BAIL-OUT worked; they were hoarding the money to save us. Centralized economic planning does not, and never will work.
CAPS IS WARRANTED: WHERE IS YOUR, TAXPAYER, BAIL-OUT?
No company should have ever gotten large enough that it alone affects the economy. The government hasn't done it's job for 20 some years.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
GM and Ford are doing great in Europe.
I'm a die-hard Chevy man. I cannot imagine not having GM or even Ford around. But I also don't want to see them handed money to bail their asses out when they're responsible for where they're at now. I liked the one proposal made, where they get the loans with a provision that they have to adhere to strict regulation and oversight of those funds, and the loans become default the second the guidelines are breached/not met.
The bank bailout was not exactly what I wanted either, but I need a banking system more than I need an auto factory.
I agree with Mitt Romney
Mitt Romney: Let Automakers Go Bankrupt
Wednesday, November 19, 2008 12:03 PM
By: Jim Meyers
Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney — whose father once ran American Motors — says he opposes a bailout of the American auto industry and believes bankruptcy may be the only path to solvency for the Big Three automakers.
In an opinion piece published in Thursday’s New York Times, Romney states that if General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout the companies have sought from the federal government,“you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye … Its demise will be virtually guaranteed.
“Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.”
Romney, who has had success revamping corporate finances and is credited with turning around the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, said automakers must take several steps to survive, including:
They must eliminate the huge disparity in costs relative to foreign brands by devising new labor agreements that align pay and benefits with those of workers at Honda, Nissan, Toyota and other competitors. If this disparity is not dealt with, any bailout “will only delay the inevitable.”
Management as is “must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.”
Automakers should cut executive perks drastically.“Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat,” Romney writes.
Investments must be made for the future.“No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years.”
Romney also said the federal government, instead of handing over billions to the automakers, should invest more in basic research on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology and the like, which will ultimately benefit the automotive industry.
He concludes:“The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.
“In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.”
Romney’s father George Wilcken Romney was chairman of American Motors from 1954 to 1962, served as the governor of Michigan from 1963 to 1969 and ran for president in 1968, ultimately losing the Republican nomination to Richard Nixon.
Since it seems a foregone conclusion that Bush will give the automakers some tax-money whether I want him to or not, I'm not sure what all there is to talk about. The train already left the station when Congress approved the $700+ billion bailout. Right now it's just a matter of posturing, not whether or not it is going to happen.
Bush bails out Big 3, Appoints a Car czar
They get enough money to last tell the new congress and senate are in.Then the large bail out comes with conditions.Big Government wants to own apiece of the a Big 3,While the Unions give Nothing, the hole time, other company's are failing with no bail out.But since they don't give money to the Dem's their voice is not herd,hence the resentment begins to build as many are left behind for those chosen few who have those Golden jobs that no one has or cant get.
But thats not the best part,the hole time this is going on the Big 3 are still losing big money,and then the call will start to come, softly at first then vary loud toward the end,a call for the government to sell the Big 3 to employees or the Unions,but they will only buy if the Big government absorbs all the debt the the big 3 have accumulated the hole time this has been going on.Including the pensions
And yes you quested it, part of the money given to the big 3 will make its way back to the pockets of the Dem's threw the Unions.Your government feeding upon its-self.
Elections have consequence's.
And the resentment continues to grow.And of course Their is nothing new under the sun.
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
This is madness. What's next? Bailout of the big oil companies?? Or credit card companies??
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
American Express already got a bailout.
Bail outs don't solve the problem, they just prolong it.
This is why drugs are bad for you.
Firstoff, this "bailout" is a loan, much like what Chrysler received under Iococca. Not only did the government get repaid the Chrysler loan, they received Chrysler stock, which they sold at about $35 per share, making the Treasury a tidy little bundle. It was a win-win for both Chrylser and the government.
Same with this time, these are loans. With the capital markets pretty much frozen, the likelyhood of the Big 3 getting loans is low. That is totally opposite of what the financial industry received, The financial industry does not have to repay the $350 billion they already spent on bonus and parties. That was free money to AIG, Fanny Mae, and Freddie Mac with no strings attached, no restructuring, no call for management resignations, all because the financial industry had the good sense to lend money to borrowers who could not qualified to repay.
Now, as to the unions giving nothing. There is already a two tier wage structure in the plants, new hires are paid alot less than older hires. The Big 3's medical costs are also decreasing, as the UAW takes over health insurance. Not much to do about pension costs, as foreign automakers have not operated in the US for over 30 years, and still enjoy the minor pension costs corresponding to a younger workforce. No matter how much a certain asshole Senator from Alabama trumpets it, the labor hour cost , excluding pension, between a car manufactured in the US by a foreign and domestic automaker is about $5/per car.
This is nothing more than a blatent attempt from some southern asshole politicians to destroy the unions, destroy the American automotive industry, and attract foreign manufacturers to make up the vacuum in market share in their districts. Unfortunately, the supplier base for the Big 3 is also the supplier base for the foreign auto makers. Too bad if you're a certain Senator from Alabama with shit for brains.
What I still fail to see is any plan addressing the current economic downturn. There is still no stability in the housing market, none in the construction market, more job cuts announced every day, and $350 billion later, no end in sight. The Republican solution, everything will be fine as long as we continue to sacrifice industries and jobs in other parts of the country. Yea, right guys, good plan......one gets the feeling that the Republicans want to accelerate the economic downturn so they can blame it on Obama in 4 years.
I'm tired of people claiming that every other region of the country should look to themselves to solve their own problems, are we a united country, or a aggregate of senseless, babbling, selfish children?
Ok ill comment on this.
My wife works for IBM.We all know the global scale and size of this major corporation.Top notch R and D
have bought us things such as the micro hard drive and developments of this have led to the ipod and smaller large capacity hard drives.
Anyway....10 or 15 years ago IBM had ridiculous benefits for its employees.We once knew a person who worked there for well over 30 years and took minimal vacations.Turns out the guy built up 5 years of vacation because it kept carrying over to the next year.Plus the longer you worked there the more you got.
Well the guy took his 5 year vacation and then worked 1 day and retired.
IBM HAD to cut its benefits to employees to survive.
The sad fact of the matter with the big 3 is management dropped the ball.While the Prius is on backorderand nobody is buying a oversized behemoth that takes 30 gallons of gas they dont do anything about it.
Quite frankly i think if the employees KNOW there jobs are at stake and can scarifice some benefits to ensure they still have jobs they should do it.This morning on the news the republican who was in talks with the UAW rep said this guy KNEW if the money didnt come from a bailout it would come from TARP.
In short its time to suck it up and deal with it like the rest of us.Everyone knows the UAW has muscled its way through the years and are highly paid.Where im from(Chamblee,Ga) the GM plant is closed and when it was opened if you had a job there you were doing good.
Its time for the UAW to give in and take a cut in benefits to ensure the longevity of ALL 3 companies.If they actually gave damn beyond the scope of the UAW they would.
Hell i just got laid off this week so i dont even want to hear any whining form these people.Ive had to return the big screen tv i bought 2 weeks ago and some of Santa's presents for my 5 year old daughter.
EVERYONE is hurting right now.NOT JUST THE BIG 3!!!!!
What is your physical limit?
Ten or 15 years ago the UAW benefits were better than they are today. The UAW has been agreeing to wage and benefit concessions every contract. There currently is a two tier wage package for hourly workers. Under this package the new workers are paid less than the legacy workers, and are on par with the foreign auto manufacturers operating in America. That is what the buyouts have been all about over the last two years, early retirement of legacy workers.
This latest contract the UAW agreed to relieve the Big 3 entirely of health care. Worker health insurance is now set and paid by the UAW.
Each of the Big 3 has become leaner, ever hear of Visteon and Delphi?
It doesn't matter whether the name on the business is GM, or Toyota, car sales are down for both companies by as much as 25%. The problem isn't the Prius, both GM and Ford make hybrids, and have done research on hybrid technology for as long as Toyota and Honda. Heck, I have a Dodge that gets 29 mpg highway, much better than many of the Toyota and Honda models. And Toyota and Honda manufacture pickups, SUVs, and mini vans that are not fuel efficient. Six months ago nobody thought much of fuel efficiency, nobody forsaw the impact speculation would have on a barrel of crude oil. Consumers leased the biggest, best equipped, vehicle they could. To say the Big 3 made the wrong decisions is to say Toyota did too. Toyota just introduced the Tundra. As you point out, Prius production cannot meet demand, doesn't sound like good market planning to me.
Now I'll let you in on a secret of hybrids. For years Ford has known (thru Visteon engineering) that the storage battery in a hybrid will not last the life of the vehicle, it has to be replaced at a cost of about $3,000. At $1.49 per gallon the cost of the battery replacement exceeds the cost of the gasoline savings, meaning the break even point requires a higher gasoline cost. That is why Toyota only operates the one hybrid plant, and why demand for the Prius did not take off until gas hit $4.00 per gallon. Both Ford and GM have had the technology for years, same as they have the technology for bio-fuel engines, natural gas engines, and electric engines (electric has been tested by utility company DTE for the last 20 years). They don't produce because it is not an economical product. Ford makes the hybrid Escape, and GM the Volt, as the counter to the Prius. Neither, like the Prius, are high production volume vehicles.
Now, name me the hybrid BMW, VW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Suzuki, Subaru, Nissan, or Renault vehicles which are manufactured, either in America, or anywhere else in the world. Yet you believe the Big 3 are behind on technology?
The problem is credit. There is no credit market for business to obtain bridge loans, no credit market for consumers to lease or purchase a big ticket item like a car. Thank the financial markets that have already walked off with $350 billion and left us nothing to show for it. And that was not a loan.
Today, on Meet the Press, the CEO of Walmart even called for government loans for the Big 3, and was joined by other CEOs of major American companies. This is not about making the Big 3 streamlined, they were already doing that. This is about trying to salvage the American economy, not about savaging it for the benefit of one region of the country at another region's expense. Not about union busting. Not about worsening the economy and blaming Obama in 4 years.
I am truly sorry to hear that you are laid off. Do you truly believe that your town is better off without that GM plant? That America will be better off without GM? That further layoffs in America will bring the economy around, and provide employment for you?
Each and every day that passes thousands of more job cuts are announced, and thousands more people just like you join the ranks of the unemployed. Maybe instead of telling them to gut up, you should be taking a stand to end the slide, and get Americans back to work.
Im sorry but there comes a time in life when you have to do things you dont want to do.I dont want to see the big 3 go down in flames but the fact of the matter is they ALL dropped the ball.
Let me see.....Gas prices go up to 5 bucks a gallon.......a car that gets 35 mpg or a huge suv that gets 20mpg or less...wich 1 should a person buy?
Talk about the failings of hybrids all you want people are buying them.
Ive already decided in the next 5 years ill buy a new car but it will be all electric.By then the technology will be vastly improved.If they want my money they better get on the ball.
Because this is my top candidate:LINKAGE
BTW here is an interesting read about world oil production and its peak:LINKAGE
Funny how Honda and Toyota and a few others arent in the news looking for loans now isnt it?
What is your physical limit?
IMO, the government shouldn't be giving handouts to ANYONE: not Ford, not some bank, not some 3rd world country.
If your company is now experiencing hard times and might go under, well, that's too bad. If the company can't stay solvent, it will go under... it SHOULD go under. This whole "too big to allow to fail" mantra is just BS.
Unfortunately, as I said earlier, the government has established a history of using other people's money to "help" certain companies or industries, and I expect this precident to be carried forward to helping US automakers. If Bush doesn't do it, Obama certainly will. It's just a matter of time.