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Flogging a dead horse?
Innferno
Member Posts: 124
Nope, this isn't a thread for those of you interested in bondage, necrophilia and bestiality 
but many will still think i'm thrashing the proverbial expired equine. If you can stick with me i'd like to get a more reasoned discussion going on the merits, or lack thereof, of player v player in the (to coin a phrase) next gen mmorpg's.
You see the thing is that I'm currently torn as to which mmorpg I should adopt next. As you can see from my sig i'm well up for a lil' bit of EQ2 but the announced absence of PVP at launch has me worried.
Now I know this is a heated topic and one that people feel strongly about one way or the other but there are a few things most people seem to miss when talking about it. Let me put forward some of the most common (and false) arguments for and against as a starting point (in no particular order):
Anti-pvp'ers:
1. The PVP community is full of egotistical idiots out to gank a bunch of lowbies.
2. PVP and PVE need to operate on different game principles and as such should be kept apart.
3. PVP is for pre-pubescent kids.
4. Development for PVP takes resources away from the development of PVE and thus I don't want any part of it in a game I choose to play.
Pro-pvp'ers:
1. PVE'ers are a bunch of whining carebears.
2. A game without PVP is pointless as it ultimately holds no challenge.
3. PVP'ers are the pinnacle of gaming excellence so show them the respect they deserve and add PVP!
4. j00 pha3r PVP cause j00 is w3ak and I am l337 (sorry I don't do that very well).
Now I know that doesn't cover it all but it seems that the majority of threads are filled with it. 'Umm so what's yer point?' i hear you cry, well its simply this; Most people like PVP. Whilst I feel this holds true it is equally obvious that most people abhor the way PVP has been implimented in the past, and rightly so.
What i'm looking for here is the middle ground. I know most people like PVP in some form or another, the chance to pit your wits against a fellow human and triumph in some way (this can be by helping others as much as hurting them) is a basic instinct inherant to some degree in all of us. If you don't believe me ask yourself why you strive to get better armour, to obtain that special dye and look cool or to lead a guild to glorious victories etc. The problems most people have with PVP actually boil down to a few simple principles (as I see it):
1. Most people HATE forced PVP, it is difficult to relax in an environment when others can spoil your day at will.
2. It sucks to feel like prey to those 'more powerful' than yourself.
3. Smack talk is mostly irratating and uneccessary but seems to go hand in hand with PVP.
4. It is natural to fear failure and when playing a game theres nothing like a better player to really ram this home.
The thing is that finding that middle ground will be the holy grail for mmorpg developers. Dark Age of Camelot got part of the idea right by almost completely elliminating 1. and 3. from the above list. They created a game world where PVP (well ok RVR but same difference) was not forced, you could not be subject to smack talk from those trying to kill you and ultimately if you wanted to play the entire game without it you could quite happily. It was almost great but was ultimately crippled by glaring design flaws that we won't go into here.
What i'm getting at here (and well done if you've managed to stick with my ramble) is why would you create a game with no PVP at all on any level? I understand that a bad implementation can ruin it, I understand that you can still attract a large player base without it but I also know that even a basic implementation will attract more people than it would lose. Why not add the ability to duel other players? stick in a flag that people can switch on if they wish to duel and if they don't requests directed at them will simply never be seen.
Well that's waaay more that anyone will read so i'll sign off but if you have a reasoned opinion i'd love to hear your thoughts.
Comments
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Killer 100%
Achiever 53%
Explorer 33%
Socializer 13%
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main reason is that people can't stand to lose, esspecially if that other person is of younger age or is less mature.
fire ze missilez!1111
fire ze missilez!1111
In respond to 1, 2, 3, & 4.
1. No game is forced PvP. you're making that choice when you join a certain server or purchase a certain game. Why people whine about it, is beyond me. They know what they're getting into, they should either just grow up, or shutup.
2. In all games you'll feel like a prey to somone. That is, unless your playing a game like a tale in the dessert. But anything to FPS's to RTS's. There is usually somone better or more powerful then you, cant fix that.
3. Smack talk goes hand & hand with almost any game. In fact I've seen some smack talk alot more serious and malicious in PvE games then PvP.
4. No one likes to lose, but ya live, ya learn. Ya try to get better. No risk, no reward.
Everyone seems to think that PvP is some small niche for smacktalkers or whatnot. But its sort of interesting to think about it, that the most popular games in the world are completely based on free for all PvP.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Here is the main just of things.
It is always going ot be a toss up on who likes and who doens't like PVP.
The main problems you list are because LEVEL based GAMES should NOT be PVP.
You can balance it by saying you can only challege people within 3-5 levels of you.
But that is just another limitation that people will whine about.
I want a completly open ended game where you are GOOD, but you never get GODLY.
Where you can be a year older than a Character and you can still be caught sleeping.
A more experienced character could only get you so far.
If you are resting sleeping or caught off guard a fairly decent fighter could take advantage and strike you down.
A game needs to come out that is not LEVEL BASED. And character shouldn't be able to take 100s of points of damage before they fall over.
if you ever keep up with my posts you would know exaclty what my resolution would be.
But people would complain. (I don't want my bad ass fighter to be dropped by a newbie)
Well, don't pick fights often unless you have too. and Stay on guard. With a fatality only 1 hit away and body chart with detailed sectioned armor. You can take those newsbie 9 times out of 10, But be carefull . The shot to the EYE could kill you.
And that would detere the L33t upper grouwd from picking on lower level characters
And the only complain you can get out of this is "My super expereinced character shouldn't have any risk fighting a lower experiences player" hmmm... BOO freakin HOO. there shoul dbe a RISK you everything you do.
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Killer 100%
Achiever 53%
Explorer 33%
Socializer 13%
--------------------------------------------
Indeed, he got my hopes up.
Don't even know there is any need to debate this.
There is a mmorpg out there for everyone just go pick the one closest to your style and play it.
If the game you pick is low population then tough just says that many others don't like that style and no need to flood forums trying to "preach" your gamestyle because it does nothing.
If you pick a game with good population then you are in luck go enjoy with like minds.