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Why PVEers should want DF to succeed.
Ok lets face it. PVPers and PVEers don't really agree on much. That's like saying the Earth is round and is the 3rd planet from the sun.
Why should PVEers want DF to succeed and do it in an amazing way? Because DF is catered to PVPers and the dev's developed the game to be real time ffa pvp. Something most pvpers like myself want.
Hey i've raided before i understand how hard it can be to kill a raid boss, and how getting 72 people to work together can and is difficult when one person could mess up and whipe the entire raid. Raiding a new area is a great achievement. And seeing things that no other person in the games history or even just on your server is and can be an amazing feeling.
But I also fell in love with PVP. My first experience left my heart pumping and a desire for more. PVPers live for the new challenge, live to get better and better and better. They want the challenge of them vs 2. They love organizing small groups of people against other groups of people because the fight will never be the same and a good team will be a team that can addapt to any situation. The thought of 100 v 100 or more gives them a hope and thrill just like unlocking a new raid boss would for a PVEer.
Back before i started PVPing before i joined the "dark" side. I got sick of PVPers hollering for PVP in games and having it implimented and then feeling that the game i played was tainted. Well to be honest most PVE games have PVP servers. DF because of how the game has been developed and the features would have to make an entirely new game to have a PVE version of it.friendly fire, taking over clan cities, and epic sea battles cant' be done in a pve environment on the DF set up. It can be done with NPC's etc etc but that is asking alot of new code and basically an entirely new game.
TO THE POINT ALREADY! ok ok.
If DF truly succeeds and is the game most if not all true PVPers want it to be they won't have a reason to want pvp implimented into a PVE based game. Leaving plenty of companies out there available to make the PVE based game that so many PVEers truly want. And that will allow for each set of people to have what they want and not have to truly deal with each other as they are almost always forced to do now.
Any thoughts? Anyone think i'm way off base and we should make PVPers and PVEers get along and make every single gaming company accommodate both wants and desires in the same game? Or should we hope that if the band of PVPers, like myself, get what they truly want then the PVEers will be more likely to get what they want?
Comments
There already is a PvE game that everyone wants it's called World of Warcraft.
Believe it or not i know alot of people love WoW but i know some get sick of the ease of it. WoW kind of appeals to the masses hence the huge player base. But there are a large population of PVEers that want a more challenging game. And WoW has "pvp" in it. Though alot of pvpers wouldn't consider it to be pvp as much as a he who has the better gear wins contest.
I'm ready to get flamed for saying it's not really pvp but it's not a ffa pvp game. If i'm a dwarf i can't kill a dwarf unless it's in a designated place no matter how much of an a** he or she may be being. And i know quite a few PVPers will back me up on this it was a major complaint that i heard all the time in WoW when i played.
Vanguard is a GREAT PvE game. WoW is a decent PvE game (themepark) Why does a sandbox need to succeed and fight the WoW numbers? What's the point? Darkfalls competion? Ac Darktide..
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I heard alot of people were dissapointed with vanguard. And actually Vanguard is an example of what i mean by PVPers hollering for pvp in a game that was originally designed to not have pvp at all and the dev's were adament against pvp. Then they gave in.
(btw for those wondering why DF can't cave to PVEers by release is because implimenting pvp is easier than removing it from a game designed with it as a core feature.)
Iam sorry OP but this logic is wrong.
Many PvE players also enjoy PvP.
Look at WoW for example. The PvP in Vanilla WoW's AV was the BOMB
But it got nerfed down cause of how they made changes to the honor system. (To make it easier to grind for PvP gear for the Arena Lovers
)
But PvP is still fun in PvE games. When Blizzard added a PvP only zone to WoW, that was again another great steping stone in WoW history. It brung out the PvP atics of WoW back to their homeland
.
-------------
But the point is, We a PvE players want something fun out of Darkfal as well, to go along side the epic hyped PvP.
Warhammer was very hyped, cause it was looked at as a PvP version of WoW.
So having a PvE server with a few safe zones wouldnt be much when you consider how big the game world is hyped up to be.
I think a good PVP game also needs good PVE to be successful....... Even Uo, which Darkfall is similar to, had alot of PVE in it........Most players can only PVP so much.......Just look at Warhammer......If they had better PVE to go with the other PVP stuff then I think it would be doing alot better....... The issue is how do you balance the game if you have both PVE and PVP??
believe it or not this game isn't just for pvpers, if sucessful it will have the most robust pve system in mmos. Mobs REMEMBER you, they have KOS lists, they act according to their species and culture (goblins don't normally attack orks but WILL attack them if you killed their friends/ smart mobs aim for the healers first/ cowardly mobs run when at half health/ mobs with good smell will be able to track you down even though you are hidden from their line of sight), they have the most complex AI in an mmo ever to be attempted, mobs travel in populations; inhabit locations that suit them; and get into wars with local mobs, when you kill a mob population; it doesn't respawn until another nomadic mob population resides in that location, and when you kill a rare mob; that mob never comes back.
All this and people who want to exclusively pve will have the thrill of traveling silently and smartly, to stay hidden from pkers, something very possible in a gigantic world (this is the reason they said griefing shouldn't be that much of a problem; b/c you can fight back and there are also MANY places to hide in the huge world). I like exploring but HATE pveing, but I can't wait to give the pve a try in this game.
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Yes DF will have a very dynamic PVE game. But remember this game is pvp first pve second (though truly it's about freedom to do anything and that requires pvp). That does not mean however the pve will suck or anything.
The point of my post was this. Many PVE based games and WoW is a pve based game built around raiding and killing npc's. DF is built around warring between clans as a basic premise but overall it's about freedom.
The benefit for PVEers if DF succeeds is two fold:
One: Those that love pve and pvp will have a place that takes skill and not following the recipie of your class and using the same build as everyone if you want to be viable at pvp or viable at pve. They will beable to have a character that doesn't have to do one thing for pve and another for pvp. So all PVEers will have a game that they could call home if it's what they want.
Two: When a new great PVE based game, or game built on the foundations of PVE, comes along they'll have less PVPers hollering for PVP to be implimented into the game. It happens alot and we all know it.
The reason alot of pvpers holler for pvp to be put into a game is that there hasn't been any great pvp based games that can really satisfy what they are looking for. They aren't looking for a game based on items. They are looking, WE are looking, for a game based on personal skill and that is what DF offers. If DF can do what it says and keep things updated there really won't be any reason for alot of PVPers to go anywhere else. And those that like both PVE and PVP will have a home that will keep them excited.
No this game isn't just for PVPers. But it was built with a PVP mentality and that mentality is usually one that wants freedom to do anything, be it murder, war, run a business, sail a boat, fight pirates, be a pirate, kill demi-gods and dragons. And you can't do the pve in DF without the PVP aspects coming into play. Don't believe me? Friendly fire. Even fighting NPC's you have to be wary of hitting your clan mates and group mates. A player damaging another player is a pvp aspect. Also your healer could miss you and heal the monster you are fighting. There are no auto targets (except maybe self only spells).
Yes Rageagainst I agree with you. But it doesn't change my point. And that is if DF succeeds it leaves room for PVE based games where items and raiding are the premise to be made without PVPers hollering for PVP to be put into the game. (it happend with Vanguard and other games)
Yes DF will have a very dynamic PVE game. But remember this game is pvp first pve second (though truly it's about freedom to do anything and that requires pvp). That does not mean however the pve will suck or anything.
The point of my post was this. Many PVE based games and WoW is a pve based game built around raiding and killing npc's. DF is built around warring between clans as a basic premise but overall it's about freedom.
The benefit for PVEers if DF succeeds is two fold:
One: Those that love pve and pvp will have a place that takes skill and not following the recipie of your class and using the same build as everyone if you want to be viable at pvp or viable at pve. They will beable to have a character that doesn't have to do one thing for pve and another for pvp. So all PVEers will have a game that they could call home if it's what they want.
Two: When a new great PVE based game, or game built on the foundations of PVE, comes along they'll have less PVPers hollering for PVP to be implimented into the game. It happens alot and we all know it.
The reason alot of pvpers holler for pvp to be put into a game is that there hasn't been any great pvp based games that can really satisfy what they are looking for. They aren't looking for a game based on items. They are looking, WE are looking, for a game based on personal skill and that is what DF offers. If DF can do what it says and keep things updated there really won't be any reason for alot of PVPers to go anywhere else. And those that like both PVE and PVP will have a home that will keep them excited.
No this game isn't just for PVPers. But it was built with a PVP mentality and that mentality is usually one that wants freedom to do anything, be it murder, war, run a business, sail a boat, fight pirates, be a pirate, kill demi-gods and dragons. And you can't do the pve in DF without the PVP aspects coming into play. Don't believe me? Friendly fire. Even fighting NPC's you have to be wary of hitting your clan mates and group mates. A player damaging another player is a pvp aspect. Also your healer could miss you and heal the monster you are fighting. There are no auto targets (except maybe self only spells).
Yes Rageagainst I agree with you. But it doesn't change my point. And that is if DF succeeds it leaves room for PVE based games where items and raiding are the premise to be made without PVPers hollering for PVP to be put into the game. (it happend with Vanguard and other games)
just a side note: didn't vangaurd originally parade a robust pvp system in development with diplomacy and stuff? I'm not completely sure since I didn't follow Vangaurd pre-release.
And I think the plight of pvpers is far worse than pve'rs, sure pvp alters some aspects of pve (like in guild wars, it makes some spells useless when they were quite balanced in pve) but that doesn't change the fact that there hasn't been a game centered around pvp. Sure you can put lipstick on a pig, its still a pig, and you can add a pvp server to a pve game. The result is a server with systems that don't make any sense and don't work well, because the foundation of those systems is pve based. Pvp carebears (we need a word for people that whine for pvp...)NEVER ruined mmos, they just forced companies to make seperate servers for them, and yes, change some skills, which are an inconvenience to pve'rs. PvE carebears RUIN pvp in games, see UO...
Oh and i agree w/ you btw, DF IS a pvp based game and pve'rs will be forced to pvp (as in ward off pkers) eventually, b/c just as you have the freedom to pve, other people have the freedom to pk you.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
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Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
PVE players want DF to fail?
This news to me.
In DF master crafters will be treated like gods, they will be protected and the big guilds with the best crafters/harvesters will rule the day.
Why would they want a game like this to fail?
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So true, I can't decide if I want to craft because of this or try out the pvp battles. Looks like i'll have to grab two accounts now.
This is very true. I don't think anyone wants DF to fail. There is just a lot of doubt about whether the game will actually release and if it does will it have everything that the devs have promised. Given the DF devs track record of secrecy a fair amount of skepticism is expected. True some take that skepticism too far at times but even those people just want the game they have been promised for the past 8 long years. These people are frustrated that this game is seemingly taking forever to get to release but I don't really think a single one of them wants the game to fail. They just want the game they have been waiting for for a very long time now. Hopefully all of this frustration and skepticism will come to an end in the very near future.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
And.. if you really think about it.. Darkfall can be a role players dream. It doesn't get any more real than having to watch out for brigands and thieves everywhere you go, although what makes it a pvp game is that the killers really have nothing to fear.. making it more of a counter-strike/Quake game.. And that's sort of disappointing.
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and how does one get these epic cities and boats? oh, thats right, PvE.
point is this game caters heavily towards PvE'ers as the PvP'ers cant do much without them. If you die in PvP chances are your gonna loose your gear and thus need plenty of replacements (crafting, selling loot) ship battles need ships in the first place (crafting) and cities need to be maintained and protected (killing mobs that spawn nearby, crafting and maybe some looting).
point is this is both a PvE and a PvP game. If you cant see that then you will not enjoy this game to its fullest.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I love PvE. The PvE in WoW is a total joke. Best PvE games on the market right now are EQ and Vanguard. PvE in Darkfall, if it is as they say it is, will be absolutely epic.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Oh how very wrong that statement is.
The problem with Vanguard or almost any PvE game that adds PvP servers is that the game is designed for PvE at their core. They add these PvP servers as an afterthought and because there is no or very limited PvP rulesets implemented it just turns into a total gankfest. PvP games are designed for PvP first and foremost. They usually have a robust PvP ruleset in place to limit ganking and PKing by putting some kind of punishment in place for such actions. These games are designed with PvP at their core so they can pull off an enjoyable PvP experience. PvP without a good ruleset devolves into chaos very quickly and is no fun for anyone. That is the reason why most PvE game's PvP servers are usually very low population.
Bren
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}
Vanguard just added PvP arena's and rewards so now us PvE players can sit back and watch PvP players go at it. Yes the carebears finally have a game that cages PvP players on a stage to perform :P
Darkfall combat from what I read seems like the most reasonable design of a PvP system in an MMORPG I've seen yet. Maybe this game will be worth looking at if they can pull it off.
Typically PvP in MMORPGs are so unbalanced due to levels, gear, etc so wining is about everything but player skill. I've always been a fan of FPS games and seeing a FPS MMO where loot is not a huge factor and all players are pretty balanced without levels it makes me think that this might be a fun game.
But again I'm a skeptic and we will need to see if they can actually deliver anything like they are claiming.
---
Ethion
And.. if you really think about it.. Darkfall can be a role players dream. It doesn't get any more real than having to watch out for brigands and thieves everywhere you go, although what makes it a pvp game is that the killers really have nothing to fear.. making it more of a counter-strike/Quake game.. And that's sort of disappointing.
where did you get that idea? When someone decides to be a pker, they are automatically blacklisted by EVERYONE not in an ARAC. Also they can't use any towns other than their clan's town, towns their clan has allied with, and those towns that accompany "chaos stones"
And btw, you can kill the thieves too you know so thieves have the fear of losing their equipment so it would be a bad idea for them to attack EVERYONE and smarter to find the weakest prey.
What makes it a pvp game its not the death penalty for killing 2 people, but there is a balance b/w the punishments of being a criminal and the rewards. You have to be a skilled player to be a criminal though to deal with the punishments and reap the rewards. You're right, if there were too many rewards, it would be like counterstrike, but if there were too many punishments, it would be L2
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
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Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O