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The Witch Hunter/Witch Elf debate - The Ultimate Definition
Spaceweed10
Member Posts: 625
http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109800407/p1/?56
The above link is a sensational post from the 'VN', concerning the issue in the thread title.
It is long, and those with the attention span of a goldfish, need not bother to read and consequently make assinine comments of 'jeez, ware r teh cliff notes?!!one1!.
Whether your concern is the devastation that WE's can infict on you, or whether you are looking for proof that the WH is remarkably inferior to its 'mirror', the answer lies here.
I can't post on 'VN' for various reasons, but I'd like to circulate this information, and at the same time /salute the original poster for an excellent piece of work, that fully describes and accounts for why the WE is the most OP class I have seen in any MMO to date.
If the suggestions that are made are mechanically and fundamentally true - and I suspect 100% that they are - then this freak of a class needs a complete overhaul. It appears that in one class tree <Carnage>, the WE has the tools to take apart virtually any Order class in the game. No other class has this capability and has to make CHOICES.
Mythic, you have created a monster. Frankenstein was able to confront his mistake and put it out of its misery. Over to you..
*Edited to provide linky
Comments
Ur vnboards buddy and u have absolutely no clue what ur talking about. i have a 40 w/e and yes 1vs1 they r extremely good at what they do but that does not make them op. before 1.01, they could 1vs1 any class but vs w/h was a challenge. i soloed my many share of all classes since i love hopping over to order side of map and tackling a couple of u guys in between camps. and still w/h are a comendable challenge. i have no complaints about my class. it has its weaknesses just like any other class. unfortunately, i tried to solo a 40 w/p last night... uttter failure. i couldnt beleive how bad this failure was. i have no reason to bs since i could care less which classes are op'ed order or destro. this guy took me out before i could even drop him below 90% health. i know how to play my class very well, and perhaps he did too, but i didnt even come close to taking this guy out. but that doesnt mean i came on here and made a whole thread about it. now i just keep trying and hope to find a weakness in the newly remodled w/p's. CHEERS to w/p for being the new op class. i mean the op finger just keeps getting pointed to someone new everytime they make a class chg.
this was pre 1.01
my thoughts based on both rank 40...
w/e vs w/h = pure skill... these 2 classes r so balanced against eachother(i love it, good challenge)
w/e vs b/w = pwnage... ranged clothy duh
w/e vs a/m = pwnage... healer clothy duh
w/e vs w/l, r/p, w/p,b/s = some skill... takes longer cause of heals/armor
w/e vs i/b = some skill... i dont even bother just cause it takes too damn long
post 1.01
w/e vs kobs = very tough... flip a coin to see who wins
w/e vs w/p = w/e gets pwned... tail between my legs
Your dear buddy does cry a lot.
Yes witch elves give better damage output than witch hunters. Yes they kill casters easier. Yes their Kiss of Doom tactic causes Kisses to proc so much their damage output increases by about 30% for slotting that one tactic. While doing these number comparisons of course, your friend conveniently leaves aside the fact that witch hunters can have your opponent disabled/disarmed for most of the fight with the right spec, but lets ignore that shall we. Why?
Because tthere is one thing that no amount of numbers comparison can demonstrate - witch hunters can finish their opponents at range.
Complain all you like. Until you experience the joy of zerg vs zerg combat with both a witch elf and a witch hunter, you simply wont be able to understand how much of a difference that added versatility makes. Please, go ahead and rank up a witch elf to Tier 4. Share with us your enjoyment at jumping a target then being knocked back and snared by the nearest ironbreaker. Of spending most of the fight either walking everywhere or flying through the air. Those few seconds you get near a target are absolutely essential - if a witch elf cannot drop a target quickly you simply do not get a second chance. Please also come back and tell me about fleet footed and how it negates snares entirely (nevermind that WH get it too). Please do bring it up because then I will know for sure that you dont know how it only lasts long enough for you to kill your target.
The Witch Hunter is a better class.
Your friends whining about how Witch Elves work so well in packs or with healers is also pathetic btw, as Witch Hunters are even more effective than Witch Elves in a pack - you simply cannot get away from Witch Hunters. Three Witch Elves get the drop on you and you die. Guess what: same thing happens to any clothie that gets hit by three Witch Hunters. Only there is absolutely zero chance of an escape from the Witch Hunters because of their ranged attacks, and its more likely the Witch Hunters will be able to drop a second and third target no matter how much they are snared/rooted or knocked back.
The thing that I find reassuring is that Mythic is not going to listen to you or your whining buddy. They will listen to the figures. The data they have allows them to do very accurate analysis of how well each class fares in combat. If Witch Hunters fare poorly in comparison to Witch Elves they will boost the class, and only then will they look at some of the suggestions you have thrown up. If anything was nerfed I would expect Kiss proc chances to be decreased slightly, and KoD to have its % proc rate boost decreased slightly as well. And that is it.
Frankly the whining I see is so pathetic. Its the sad thing about MMOs. People think that if they whine enough they can get things changed to make up for how much they suck. I would be all for Mythic announcing they wouldnt do any changes to the classes at all, for better or worse. Let people learn to live with the broken mechanics, let people scream about how broken Detonate was, or how game breaking Chaotic Rift/Electromagnet was. Let them all scream and cry about it, then let them do it some more. New strategies would get developed, the play style would evolve. This whining and nerf cycle of idiocy doesnt allow gameplay to evolve much at all. Rather it puts us players in a reactive loop, where we adjust tactics to the changes of the nerf, then remain inflexible and complain until new changes get implemented for us to finally adapt to.
excelent response man, thats just the problem, ppl dont want to figure anything out, they want their counterparts served to them on a platter. like i said after 1.01, w/p are just something i will have to adapt to. before i turned rank 18, i absolutely hated b/w cause of their dasterdly fire cage, but then i got my anti snare at rank 18 and never looked back.
I've played both...
A complete overhaul is not needed imo. What's needed is better itemization. All of the WE moves get damage based on the single strength stat. The WH has strength on the sword and ballistic on the finishing moves with the gun. So just drop more stuff with high str and bal on it.
(at least that's my understanding the WH... they have two stats to raise (str and bal) where the WE has just one (str))...
How amusing. There is no skill in playing a WE. There never is as OP classes play themselves.
From the description of how you describe who and want you can/can't beat, I would say you are a mediocre WE.
I've seen 'good' WEs in action, and they know just how to abuse the 'Carnage' tree. Are you suggesting the 'Carnage' tree is balanced against the other two trees. Do you know any decent WEs who don't spec 'Carnage'?
What do you spec?
That theory was blown out of the water a long time ago.
What level are your WE and WH?
Interesting. This ladies and gentlemen, is the perfect example of a player who knows his class is OP, and is trying to cushion the blow of the nerf bat.
Believe me, the bat is coming to all WEs near you, and there will be much rejoicing in Aldorf. The bat is big and heavy..
What he said.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
What he said.
Ah, another WE. Welcome to the debate.
Your reasoning is astounding. What an excellently presented and thoughtful argument
That theory was blown out of the water a long time ago.
What level are your WE and WH?
When and where? I must have missed that.... my understanding was that ballistic stat mattered for the WH because of the gun, used for both the range shot and the finishing moves. Did they change it to where the damage of the WH finishing moves are based on strength now?
u fail to mention how uve come to the conclusion that there is no skill playing a w/e...
i fail to mention that i am suffering spec...
if u have a lvl 40 w/e and u feel u need no skill playing this class then ur opinion is valid, if u dont, then u need not speak of theories, but experiences. i have done just that. whether or not u think i am good or mediocre at what i do is purely relative.
And after that WE has killed that one toon what happens to the poor WE? SPLAT! WAR should have stuck to its guns about no stealth. The WE and WH are horrible classes. They are pure gank classes with no survivability when it comes to RvR.
u fail to mention how uve come to the conclusion that there is no skill playing a w/e...
i fail to mention that i am suffering spec...
if u have a lvl 40 w/e and u feel u need no skill playing this class then ur opinion is valid, if u dont, then u need not speak of theories, but experiences. i have done just that. whether or not u think i am good or mediocre at what i do is purely relative.
You obviously didn't read the rundown on the balance between the WE and the WH, because if you had, this discussion wouldn't be taking place.
Go and read it, then come back with your thoughts and theories as to why the OP is incorrect. I'll tell you now, you will have nothing to say. Hell, you don't even know how obscene 'Carnage' actually is in damage potential.
Read the one paragraph where that is explained, and how many tools are made available to the WE in comparison to any of the trees in the WH line, or any other class for that matter.
'Carnage' serves everything on a plate, with NO CHOICES as to what the WEs targets are. It allows EVERY class to be a reasonable target because of the skills it provides. Add to that the spec that can be achieved at a flat lvl 40, and you have God mode very early in the game. The dude that wrote it, has covered every angle, and gives excellent examples of all his reasoning. You just complain about folk shouting for 'nerf'.A slight difference.
As for 'EZ' mode, a WE has to press 3 or 4 buttons max to kill their prey, and let the game mechanics take over the rest. I have seen 'Enfeebling Strike' kill folk <1 button> who don't know what it is. Prove me wrong.
lol nailed it.
Playing: Not much actively.
Games played: to many to list, been playing MMO's since 2001
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lol nailed it.
hahaha, i was gonna say the same thing, nailed it so bad "SPLAT"
u fail to mention how uve come to the conclusion that there is no skill playing a w/e...
i fail to mention that i am suffering spec...
if u have a lvl 40 w/e and u feel u need no skill playing this class then ur opinion is valid, if u dont, then u need not speak of theories, but experiences. i have done just that. whether or not u think i am good or mediocre at what i do is purely relative.
You obviously didn't read the rundown on the balance between the WE and the WH, because if you had, this discussion wouldn't be taking place.
Go and read it, then come back with your thoughts and theories as to why the OP is incorrect. I'll tell you now, you will have nothing to say. Hell, you don't even know how obscene 'Carnage' actually is in damage potential.
Read the one paragraph where that is explained, and how many tools are made available to the WE in comparison to any of the trees in the WH line, or any other class for that matter.
'Carnage' serves everything on a plate, with NO CHOICES as to what the WEs targets are. It allows EVERY class to be a reasonable target because of the skills it provides. Add to that the spec that can be achieved at a flat lvl 40, and you have God mode very early in the game. The dude that wrote it, has covered every angle, and gives excellent examples of all his reasoning. You just complain about folk shouting for 'nerf'.A slight difference.
As for 'EZ' mode, a WE has to press 3 or 4 buttons max to kill their prey, and let the game mechanics take over the rest. I have seen 'Enfeebling Strike' kill folk <1 button> who don't know what it is. Prove me wrong.
just because i only have to press 4 buttons doesnt mean there is no skill, but i do have to assess my situation every battle and decide what 4 buttons i will be using. and there is no need to prove u wrong. enfeebling strike is an awesome tool for both w/h and w/e but dont blame my class cause you lack the knowledge of this ability.
i did read the link and the misunderstanding is the difference between a mirror class imbalance and w/e being op... two totally different things
i still stand behind my analysis on w/e vs w/h hunter even after 1.01... even since posting here i have soloed w/h AND LOST a few AND thats with a carnage respec just to see ur side of the argument... point is disabling a w/e is the most detramental abilty against our class and will be as long as we have no counter which i am not saying we should. u want to beat a w/e with w/h, disable disable disable and learn to play ur class
Just like yours excellently presented and thoughtful answer to TheHorror's post then? At least try to yourself behave differently if you're going to complain about other peoples behavior. And as for the original topic: I agree with TheHorror. Oh, and one last note: I don't play a Witch Elf.
Ah, another WE. Welcome to the debate.
Your reasoning is astounding. What an excellently presented and thoughtful argument
Just like yours excellently presented and thoughtful answer to TheHorror's post then? At least try to yourself behave differently if you're going to complain about other peoples behavior. And as for the original topic: I agree with TheHorror. Oh, and one last note: I don't play a Witch Elf.
You clearly have little knowledge of what is being discussed here.
Why join the debate just to troll?
Edit: Oh by the way, I wasn't replying to 'TheHorror' in that post, if you look carefully. But trolls never do look carefully, do they?
My Swordmaster DESTROYS Witch Elves before they get a chance to get me to less than 50% hp. In fact, any tank not asleep at his/her keyboard will pwn them without a sweat, while eating bagel and scratching his/hers nether parts between mouse clicks. In fact since the latest influx of tanks in upper tiers (order was quite low on them at release) I've been seeing quite less WEs around - guess they don't like to be stomped into the ground regularly.
I won't say L2P because you're obviously not playing the game. I'll just say learn to find more plausible themes for hate propaganda trolling.
The game is rock-papers-scissors. If anything should be done with Witch Elves it is that Witch Hunters should get boosted to be up to par. The nature of the game and exactly what makes it interesting is that each archetype has its nemesis and its prey. That's precisely what makes teamplay so tense and enjoyable.
I've got a bunch of alts and here's my experience with WE "prey" - the squishies. There are dumb squishies and there are smart squishies. Dumb ones run AWAY from WE and away from their main group. Smart ones just run into the main tank group and live on. It's all tactics. L2P ffs. Please no more dumbing down like that awful BW nerf. Just boost Witch Hunters dps slightly (very slightly) and thats it.
wow so many experts on how classes in a game should work, can't wait to see the games all the experts here make...
.. and this is exactly what makes them so fun to play and so special. Each engagement is basically a potential suicide mission - choose wisely your targets, it's the greater part of your player skill.
If you want to play an in-your-face assault melee DPS then roll a Marauder or White Lion... or wait for those last two missing classes.
WEs and WHs are great at what they're supposed to be - sneaky infiltrators waiting for the right moment to pounce, come what may. They kill off weaklings - squishies and low hp toons in general if they're dumb enough to loose their support. I wouldn't have them any other way.
You are a dumb desperate troll.
My Swordmaster DESTROYS Witch Elves before they get a chance to get me to less than 50% hp. In fact, any tank not asleep at his/her keyboard will pwn them without a sweat, while eating bagel and scratching his/hers nether parts between mouse clicks. In fact since the latest influx of tanks in upper tiers (order was quite low on them at release) I've been seeing quite less WEs around - guess they don't like to be stomped into the ground regularly.
I won't say L2P because you're obviously not playing the game. I'll just say learn to find more plausible themes for hate propaganda trolling.
The game is rock-papers-scissors. If anything should be done with Witch Elves it is that Witch Hunters should get boosted to be up to par. The nature of the game and exactly what makes it interesting is that each archetype has its nemesis and its prey. That's precisely what makes teamplay so tense and enjoyable.
I've got a bunch of alts and here's my experience with WE "prey" - the squishies. There are dumb squishies and there are smart squishies. Dumb ones run AWAY from WE and away from their main group. Smart ones just run into the main tank group and live on. It's all tactics. L2P ffs. Please no more dumbing down like that awful BW nerf. Just boost Witch Hunters dps slightly (very slightly) and thats it.
Very true.
I play a rank 38 WE and there's no chance in hell I can go 1vs1 against a tank and win. I can't beat WL either if they even have the slightest clue what they're doing.
What makes WE's good is positional attacks and dumb opponents.
Your beautiful carnage spec in action...
yes i was up against two order, 1 w/p, 1 i/b
the iron breaker was less of a threat in this battle and i was focused on the warrior priest that being "ako"
a w/e does the majority of its damage at the begining of battle so after we run outta ap, its all downhill from there and this battle lasted roughly 10 seconds
w/p "ako" did roughly 5k damage
i/b "bife" did roughly 2.5k damage
w/e "me" did a wopping 1k damage to "ako"... TY OP carnage spec
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc307/dferdinand1231/Terminatr_edit.jpg
But every1 will keep saying w/e r op just like they always have.
i also posted the original screen on the gallery here
WTF is "u" and "ur" "uve" Is this leet speak? Lots of periods in there and no...capitals. Learn to Read , you know and write. I think they teach that shit in fucking grade school.
Translation: Fukn Lrn2read and right, Ur edumication iz showing. W/E Rulz and takz skilZ
Sorry...
Sick of the I-pod generation educated through cell phone text. /end rant.
On topic. W/E's are fine, (imo), thier carnage tree is a bit out of sync with their mirror but all in all rogues always are a pain in the ass no matter what. On the record I have played one to 32 but got bored with it. I like my Warrior Priest and DoK to much. Playing a WP might be why they don't bother me to much. I have heard the argumnet both ways about W/E's but for me they just don't seem that difficult.
WTF is "u" and "ur" "uve" Is this leet speak? Lots of periods in there and no...capitals. Learn to Read , you know and write. I think they teach that shit in fucking grade school.
Translation: Fukn Lrn2read and right, Ur edumication iz showing. W/E Rulz and takz skilZ
Sorry...
Sick of the I-pod generation educated through cell phone text. /end rant.
On topic. W/E's are fine, (imo), thier carnage tree is a bit out of sync with their mirror but all in all rogues always are a pain in the ass no matter what. On the record I have played one to 32 but got bored with it. I like my Warrior Priest and DoK to much. Playing a WP might be why they don't bother me to much. I have heard the argumnet both ways about W/E's but for me they just don't seem that difficult.
hahahaha im sry if i have offended u with my "leet speak", obviously u can read it and i spend enough time typing just that so to add to it would just be a pain in my rear and i dont feel like it so :P