After some reading something comes to my mind, people that do nothing are generally the first to brand others as failures when themselves are the ones at fault. I may not like Garriots approach and handling in TR but fact is he gave some good titles to play and he keeps on moving, like it or not TR was a good and different offer from the other copies in the market and the man is going at it again. So all in all its profit for the industry and for the gamer comunity in generall because hopefully a good title is coming out and it will be as good or better than Ultima and i say get the man a good team and let him polish his ideias before release, its more people like him that are needed in the gaming scene.
How can you say TR was good? It could have been good but they failed to fill the game with the needed content to make it good. Its failure is proof of this. RG is not alone in blame and most likely he was not the main reason it failed, but TR is a failure as an MMO.
TR was a good game but it was misplaced in the market, the way it was it would have made a a great single player RPG, and it wasn't bad as a online game the only problem is that people at the moment only know how to play WoW and its clones and TR didn't catter to those people.
TR did not fail for being different from WoW. Stop with the WoW and its clones line, it is tired and boring and a lame excuse for a lame game getting canned. TR was not an MMO, that is why it failed as an MMO.
As a single player game it would have been a failure too since it had no end game at release or anything close. TR was a disaster from the start. TR sold over 150k copies and before the axe fell they were down to around 25k subscriptions. TR had a horrible retention rate because it was boring after a couple of months.
WoW is not to blame for TRs demise, TR is to blame. Blaming WoW is weak.
Garriott should be respected, he's earned that right. Ok, so he's not done anything decent since Ultima Online, but it's not like that's where his career started. He's been in the gaming industry 29 years, pretty much since its inception. Garriott didn't just pioneer the 1st decent MMO, more importantly he also laid the foundations for all RPG's with Akalabeth and the Ultima series when most of us were too small to even pickup a joystick. The guy should be extended gratitude for a lot of what he thought up, Garriott's a thinker and a designer first and foremost. Whether he can pull something else out of the hat is another question, but atleast give the guy a break in recognition for what his work and indirect influence through others work has given us. If he wants to look after number 1, who blames him? One things for sure, if he does reproduce a modern equivalent of what he acheived with UO, it would only be a good thing. I for one welcome him having another chance.
Actually he has done plenty since UO. He was involved in COX and the Lineage games just to name a couple.
One things for sure, if he does reproduce a modern equivalent of what he acheived with UO, it would only be a good thing. I for one welcome him having another chance
I wonder who would risk the dozens of millions of dollars it would take to produce such a game? Could you picture yourself investing and risking your own money, for instance?
No game developer on the planet could have saved Tabula Rasa after the complete design change from a sword/magic game into a psuedo first person shooter alien game. This project was doomed the moment that decision was made. Throwing out years of work and millions of dollars invested in an attempt to rebuild the game from the ground up in that time frame was the kiss of death.
The only question unanswered is: who had enough power to make that decision. Was it NCSoft or Richard Garriot?
I cannot think of a single game designer with that type of authority over a game unless they own the company. I can however think of several companies that have screwed over their game designers and the games they were designing. I'm not saying Garriot didn't screw up here, but this whole situation has upper management stink all over it.
I disagree that it was doomed from the moment they decided to change the design.
My understanding is they spent 3+ years and a bucket load of money on the original design. And at some point they realised the game wasnt going to work. Now at this point a lot of companies would push it out the door to try and re-coup their investment.
Instead they scrapped that, used a different engine and basically started over. I think T.R failed because they didnt have enough time/money to complete the game. Apart from the vision issues.
So for their money NCSoft got two failed games. The original T.R that was scrapped, and the revamped T.R that launched.
That is basically what I was trying to say. Cutting the original design and shifting focus to a complete redesign didn't give the developers enough time or resources to make a game worthy of what was invested.
TR was really just what could be salvaged of a project that went wrong.
The only question unanswered is: who had enough power to make that decision. Was it NCSoft or Richard Garriot?
You talk about "upper management stink"--well, keep in mind that his brother Robert was CEO Austin for all those years and he also had a seat on the Board of Directors in Seoul. He may still be on the board, his name has not been taken off of the NcSoft.net "board of governors" since I last looked. Think of them as a unit, and you have your answer.
I hear what you are saying King. However I still do not believe that the Garriots together had so much contol of the project that they could do whatever they wanted when ever they wanted. Why would NCSoft allow a game designer and his brother so much control over the largest most expensive project they have. One that nearly crippled their company.
Furthermore why would Richard Garriot suddenly shift his passion from fantasy games to some alien first person shooter. Is it even plausable that he was scared of competiting with WoW, considering his ego?
For what you say to even be a consideration, NCSoft would have had to empower the Garriots with full and total control over what nearly amounts to the future of the company. Earlier you said he was to lazy to get into the office, yet you want to say he was responsible for completely revamping the entire game into something else? Little of what you claims collectively makes sense.
Everything about the decision to drastically alter, and ultimately ruin, the tabula rasa project makes sense from a corporate standpoint.
Please note that this does not mean in any way that I think RG is still a visionary designer he was many years ago. I loved some of the concepts he talked about in the demo videos and that really got me interested in the game. However little to none of that was delivered.
I wonder who would risk the dozens of millions of dollars it would take to produce such a game? Could you picture yourself investing and risking your own money, for instance?
Hell, if I won the lottery, I'd write the man a check right now. The contigent being that it's a spiritual successor to UO. Medieval theme, change the names, keep the idea (And the virtues, if you can get away with it), make it better. Skill-based. Sandbox.
I tried TR as well. It was something different than what was being offered. It's not that I didn't like the premise, or the story, but it just didn't have that certain SOMETHING to keep me hooked. Perhaps I'm just a medieval-game whore that just can't get into Sci-Fi. Wouldnt' be much of a stretch from the truth, actually.
And no matter what anyone may think, just because his name is on the box doesn't mean he called the shots. His brother sits on a BOARD of directors.. Neither of them owned the company. They didn't act alone in a solitary cell of the company - The company knew exactly what it was doing when it scrapped and relaunched TR. In a corporation, no one stands alone. Not even Bill Gates could do whatever the flub he wanted with Microsoft. Even as the owner, chairman, founder.. He STILL had to work with others to make anything happen. And weather or not he agreed with what the company isn't particularly relevant, and unknown.
Makes me feel a bit of empathy for him. I know what it's like to shoulder the blame for a host of bad decisions not entirely my own. If it's his to bare, I'd give him the shot at redemption in a nanosecond.
You blindly accuse Garriot for the failure of Tabula Rasa. Little do you know that he was not the only designer on the game, and had to make sacrifices and comprimises numerous times if i remember correctly. The other designer didnt have a good relationship with Garriot, which from the start leads the game in a bad direction.
What little good in Tabula Rasa was tidbits of Garriots design elements, unfortunatley the mesh of the two designers was quite apparent, and the game suffered from limiting mechanics.
If Garriot has some creative freedom to create a new online RPG, I can't wait to see what he comes up with. A lot of people on this forum needs be more critical to the illusions in the media. The poor guys name was plastered on the box, used as a marketing ploy so people are quick to point fingers. Look a little bit deeper eh?
Why would NCSoft allow a game designer and his brother so much control over the largest most expensive project they have. One that nearly crippled their company.
Because they had the faith in them that you hear coming from many on this thread. Because NcSoft paid attention to the fans and thought they would give them what they wanted.
Guys, guys... we blame RG for the failure of Tabular Rasa because the full name of the game is "Richard Garriot's Tabula Rasa".
Now repeat with me: RG TS.
He put his name on the game tittle and hi delivered a piece of crap, how are you expecting people to judge him?
Saying he shouldn't be blamed for the failure is like saying he Mark Jacobs shouldn't be blamed for the failure of WAR. Yeah, he was not the only one who made the game, but he was the one hyping it as the next big thing.
For me RG looks like a 3 year old toddler who asked to be a big boy (like that disney movie)
Anyways, if i had won the lotery i would pay Jacobs and Garriot to join forces into space.. and then I would pay one of the space station staff to cut thir oxigen feed while they are space walking.
BTW, whats the name for the next RG scam?
"Richard Garriot's Im to sexy for my games", "Richard Garriot's: I wish i could design something decent", or "Richard Garriot's: Come fly with me" or maybe "Richard Garriot's: The world is not big enough to house my ego, so I go into space".
Why would NCSoft allow a game designer and his brother so much control over the largest most expensive project they have. One that nearly crippled their company.
Because they had the faith in them that you hear coming from many on this thread. Because NcSoft paid attention to the fans and thought they would give them what they wanted. Because NcSoft trusted them.
So it is your position that the Garriots reacted to fan opinion and massively changed tabula rasa from a fantasy game to a space shooter? NCSoft had no real input and just let these two guys do whatever they wanted with the so much money that it could cripple the companies future?
I'm sorry, but nothing you have said makes any sense when you really think about it. There is no believable way to think things happened the way you want to paint them. I doubt any company is that irresponsible with such large sums of money, but anything is possible I guess.
Seriously, how do you think the massive redesign of the game came about? RG just did it and NCSoft was powerless or unaware of the changes? Do you really think NCSoft just sat around and watched this or does it make more sense that they were behind the changes?
I'm not saying the Garriots didn't deliver a shallow game, but someone forced this game to undergo massive changes that effectively guarenteed it would be a dud. Everything points to those changes coming from executive/marketing people and not some out of control designers.
You blindly accuse Garriot for the failure of Tabula Rasa. Little do you know that he was not the only designer on the game, and had to make sacrifices and comprimises numerous times if i remember correctly. The other designer didnt have a good relationship with Garriot, which from the start leads the game in a bad direction. What little good in Tabula Rasa was tidbits of Garriots design elements, unfortunatley the mesh of the two designers was quite apparent, and the game suffered from limiting mechanics. If Garriot has some creative freedom to create a new online RPG, I can't wait to see what he comes up with. A lot of people on this forum needs be more critical to the illusions in the media. The poor guys name was plastered on the box, used as a marketing ploy so people are quick to point fingers. Look a little bit deeper eh?
Garriot is not the only one to blame but he's guilty non the less. Besides anyone can make a crappy game, played the expansion to the first Diablo game?
Garriot needed a reality check, in same way Mark Jakobs & Barnett needed one, a few good ideas and lots of cash ain't enough to make great game.
But failing do give you experience so next time they can make a better game. Having more than one people for the creative bussiness is the same as having a rock band, if you don't the same thing, you will probably flop but in TRs case I don't think that is the only problem.
Another reason TR flopped so badly was that they didn't have any great programmers, they were passable but that ain't enough. One of the reasons that Guildwars sold so much was that it is so good programmed. The too early release was the last nail in the coffin.
Let's hope Garriot learns from his misstakes and makes a great game next time.
So it is your position that the Garriots reacted to fan opinion and massively changed tabula rasa from a fantasy game to a space shooter?
The first version (although, it was really the second. The Garrriotts abandoned their first project in 2001 when the CEO of NcSoft came along with their extravagant buyout of Destination Games and the Garriott "brand") was abandoned because it was received very poorly at an electronic exhibit by both fans and other developers. During the same time frame, WOW was released to astounding success and the relation ship between NcSoft, the Garriotts and Jake Song broke down. It looked like sheer panic to me.
I also fault the Western media coverage of the development of this game. The only hard questions and real reporting took place in Korea, and you'd have to be interested enough in facts rather than the fiction that our gaming "news" sources provide. Wired, Escapist...all have been charmed stupid by Richard Garriott. If you truly want to know how it progressed, go to the Korea Times and search back to 2001. Also dig into NcSoft.net. But to someone in Austin who followed the story who had a financial interest in knowing how it came about, it wasn't hard to understand. But the Austin press was generally more interested in his entertainments and antics than the game business. Now they can watch the company move to Seattle and their friends get laid off. They should have done their jobs, and maybe put some pressure on the brothers to perform.
NCSoft had no real input and just let these two guys do whatever they wanted with the so much money that it could cripple the companies future?
NcSoft was entering into a new market and they invested huge amounts of money in the Garriotts, which fed their egos to the point that their heads almost exploded. It led to much arrogance and laziness. They started to regard the money not as something they were expected to work for, but a tribute to their greatness.
Once NcSoft had given them all that money, it's like when you drill a well and hope for oil. It costs a fortune to drill, but where's the oil? Do you stop drilling, stop spending money on the drill? If you do that, you have lost your money. So you keep investing, and keep hoping. So the investors at some point had to stop, and say, "release the game." This happened very conveniently in the fall of 2007, when stock options were sold the same day TR was released. It was also the same time that Richard announced his flight into space. Probably those options were sold to pay the Russians for his ticket.
I'm saying that the CEO had little power after years of development. When you hand over a pile of money to get someone to do a job, what leverage do you have to actually make sure that job is done, other than to fire him? Then you lose your money. The Seoul CEO just was in a lousy position to make the Garriotts deliver.
Factor in the fact that the CEO in Austin was Richard's brother, who didn't exactly have an interest in bringing authority to bear on Richard.
Originally posted by Wolfdor I wish some company would give Raph Koster that money instead.
Heh, Koster has already demonstrated twice that any game needs a huge redesign if he's allowed to be project lead. He might have "vision" just like Brad, but sadly making the vision true and working lacks...
I thought TR was a good games. I believe its a fact it is just ncsoft not delivering. Cuase look at Guild Wars, freaking like 3 campaigns and 1 expansion, only max lv is 20. The game is good, but it was just ncsoft holding mose of the developers back or something. Look at COH/COV cryptic technically left to do their own business. Mostly don't blame Richard Gariott, blame all the people of ncsoft or the devlopers who just didnt give a dang. TR was pretty good in my book, compared to alot of mmos, and definatly one of the best scifi. Look right now all you got is anarchy online, SWG, and EVE. And some of the unknown name stuff. Hopefully this will bea good year for mmos, I dont really like talking crap about a company cuase about every major company I like something bout them and their games. And by the way I do believe WoW is pretty mucha clone of EQ and all rpgs date back from DnD so eventually just goes in a loop.
My all general opinion of NC soft has changed during this, i was gonna play Aion and was looking forward to it, but ive since had a change of heart and dont want to pick up any Nc Soft game again.
TR has always been treated 2nd class by them, and dont get me wrong the game had its faults, i for one i finished at lvl 30 due to the repeat nature of a game.
One thing is for sure thoe, even after release it takes a fair bit of time to get things right, the game was rushed to release and lost a lot of subscribers including me in the open beta, when i went back 5 months later it had vastly improved, i did intend going back again after another 6 months, but thats not going to happen now.
Whats the shame here is the amount of work wasted, NC soft should have stuck it out at least another 12 months, the game was still in its infancy and had lots of potential.
But they dumped after 12 months and this is why i wont pay or play another NCsoft game, why should i waste my money and time on a game to have dumped so quick.
They can be a lot finger pointing, but mine is straight at NCsoft themselves.
Playing: FFXIV Future: wishing for SWG 2, World of Warcraft Classic Played: Most current and extinct MMO's - 18 Years in....
So it is your position that the Garriots reacted to fan opinion and massively changed tabula rasa from a fantasy game to a space shooter?
The first version (although, it was really the second. The Garrriotts abandoned their first project in 2001 when the CEO of NcSoft came along with their extravagant buyout of Destination Games and the Garriott "brand") was abandoned because it was received very poorly at an electronic exhibit by both fans and other developers. During the same time frame, WOW was released to astounding success and the relation ship between NcSoft, the Garriotts and Jake Song broke down. It looked like sheer panic to me. I also fault the Western media coverage of the development of this game. The only hard questions and real reporting took place in Korea, and you'd have to be interested enough in facts rather than the fiction that our gaming "news" sources provide. Wired, Escapist...all have been charmed stupid by Richard Garriott. If you truly want to know how it progressed, go to the Korea Times and search back to 2001. Also dig into NcSoft.net. But to someone in Austin who followed the story who had a financial interest in knowing how it came about, it wasn't hard to understand. But the Austin press was generally more interested in his entertainments and antics than the game business. Now they can watch the company move to Seattle and their friends get laid off. They should have done their jobs, and maybe put some pressure on the brothers to perform. NCSoft had no real input and just let these two guys do whatever they wanted with the so much money that it could cripple the companies future? NcSoft was entering into a new market and they invested huge amounts of money in the Garriotts, which fed their egos to the point that their heads almost exploded. It led to much arrogance and laziness. They started to regard the money not as something they were expected to work for, but a tribute to their greatness. Once NcSoft had given them all that money, it's like when you drill a well and hope for oil. It costs a fortune to drill, but where's the oil? Do you stop drilling, stop spending money on the drill? If you do that, you have lost your money. So you keep investing, and keep hoping. So the investors at some point had to stop, and say, "release the game." This happened very conveniently in the fall of 2007, when stock options were sold the same day TR was released. It was also the same time that Richard announced his flight into space. Probably those options were sold to pay the Russians for his ticket. I'm saying that the CEO had little power after years of development. When you hand over a pile of money to get someone to do a job, what leverage do you have to actually make sure that job is done, other than to fire him? Then you lose your money. The Seoul CEO just was in a lousy position to make the Garriotts deliver. Factor in the fact that the CEO in Austin was Richard's brother, who didn't exactly have an interest in bringing authority to bear on Richard.
Kinglee, I do enjoy your posts and you seem to be very interested in the goings on of NCSoft, however all of this makes little practical sense when looked at collectively. It reads more like a bad afterschool special staring the dad from growing pains.
At one point you say that the press in Austin is somehow at fault and suggest they had some sort of power of the game that they were not exercising. Yet you also say the company that was holding the purse strings and owned everything was somehow not in a position to do anything.
For example you said the CEO wasn't in a position to do anything after investing so much money. I say they were in a position to try do whatever they wanted to try to make their investment work. It need not go as far as termination, but they sure could do something like force a complete revamp of the game from a fantasy game to a alien shooter. Doesn't that make much more sense?
I don't think any game developer on the planet could have delivered a great game under these circumstances. RG might be great or all washed up, but it is nearly impossible to tell based on the outcome of TR due to the situation.
I really think we would see better games out of some of the past designer greats if they were put in an environment where they were managed, but at the same time give some freedom to be creative. They certainly cannot be in charge of the whole show (Garriot/McQuaid) nor can they be rushed and cut short of their designs (Koster-swg).
Also I'm curious about the reviews the original game had. I've seen only a very little bit about it. Any links you can share would be appreciated.
Let me try another metaphor. The Banks in the US have lent a lot of money to people who bought houses that lost their value, and now those borrowers are not paying the money back.
Who's in real trouble, the borrowers or the banks? You can see from the news that the banks are going under.
Once the money is out of your hands, you lose power over the transaction. The banks can foreclose, but that's still a huge loser for the bank.
Better that the bank not lend the money in the first place! But NcSoft gave out lots of money, upfront, in the belief that the Garriott brothers knew what they were doing. After that, they didn't have much control. They just had to wait anxiously for seven years and hope.
In the meantime, no media in the US following the gaming industry asked any hard questions of the brothers.They just wrote stories about his cool toys and lavish lifestyles. They could have asked, "How can you spend so much time playing and get any work done?" for instance.
Now just try and imagine that they had to scrap everything they had combat and animation wise and work from the start again. The older version of TR looked much better to me and much more unique. There was also player housing from the start (You can see RG talking about it in a another video) and they had plans for a deep crafting system. Trust me the blame should be on NCsoft no RG.
wow this right here pretty much prooves that RG had Tabula Rasa going in the right direction and that he probably isnt _____*insert descriminations from previous posts in this thread*. I mean some of the ideas in this video most likely came from his mind, if you look at the 2005 E3 trailer, you can see that it went through the revamp so it happened sometime between 2004-2005. Maybe this was because of higher-up people at NCSoft, maybe it was because of RG, or both. We will never know so you shouldnt lose faith in him and his video game creating capabilites.
Let me try another metaphor. The Banks in the US have lent a lot of money to people who bought houses that lost their value, and now those borrowers are not paying the money back. Who's in real trouble, the borrowers or the banks? You can see from the news that the banks are going under. Once the money is out of your hands, you lose power over the transaction. The banks can foreclose, but that's still a huge loser for the bank. Better that the bank not lend the money in the first place! But NcSoft gave out lots of money, upfront, in the belief that the Garriott brothers knew what they were doing. After that, they didn't have much control. They just had to wait anxiously for seven years and hope. In the meantime, no media in the US following the gaming industry asked any hard questions of the brothers.They just wrote stories about his cool toys and lavish lifestyles. They could have asked, "How can you spend so much time playing and get any work done?" for instance.
As much as I dislike analogies, because they are not representative and people chose to only pay attention to what they think supports their ideas, I think you have disproved your point with this one.
In this case the bank who has lent out money has many options, just like NCSoft does. One being a forclosure, which in the case of Tabula Rasa would be similar in nature to a complete redesign of that game. Neither of those options is what either company would want to do in ideal situations, but they are the only ones with the power to do so in their respective cases. Again, not that I think the lending industry is a representative example of this specific case, but you can see in each case who has authority.
Both the bank and NCSoft had in their power drastic measures they could enact upon the people they gave lots of money to. Neither the burrower or game designer can ultimately do as they please, because they somehow have final authority.
Ask yourself if you think RG had the authority to make these changes and is responsible for setting the project back to a near impossible state. Not to mention why he would want his roots of fantasy game in order to make a first person alien shooter, right in the middle of the project.
As for the media, how are they supposed to know what the goals are. NCSoft is ultimately responsible for making a product, the media is responsible for writing entertaining articles about things people might find interesting. The media is not responsible for making sure RG makes his deadlines and isn't a fruitcake.
Look at thing objectively and you will see you hold reporters of gaming columns more responsible than the company that had millions invested in the game.
I don't know how much more to say to illustrate what I think is an obvious point--once the cash leaves your pocket and enters the pocket of someone else, you've lost a lot of control. You also need good oversight if your new company is across the ocean from HQ, and they hired the star's brother for that.
If you looked back to the reports from 2001, the CEO Seoul put enormous faith upfront that was probably not wise. "OK, you've got the money. Now build me a game." well, maybe, but this weekend I'm riding the Vomit Comet...next week is Mardi Gras...and I'm taking magic lessons from this guy in Vegas...and there's this boxing tournament...want a tour of my mansion? This is what was covered by the gaming press, everything but the game. But you could read more serious business news in the Korea press. The Americans thought the money would go on forever, just like they expected their mortgaged houses to continually go up in value.
Yes, the banks can foreclose. And, guess what--the bank can go bankrupt when they can't sell the foreclosed property. Washington Mutual. Lehman Brothers. Foreclosure is not a great option. And my analogy also breaks down because they can't foreclose on the Garriotts, unless they try to take them to court.
The premise that a company has no control over its employees, divisions and projects just because they have already spent some money is flawed. You act like NCSoft was powerless to stop RG from making drastic changes to the game that nullified millions of dollars and years of work.
I don't care what the press covered to be honest. It is not their job nor expectation to make sure TR is a succesful product. That is a point you seem to not understand is the responsibility of NCSoft. Garriot was acting like a circus clown and they covered the stories. That is how american media works. Do you think NCSoft was relying on the media of another nation to manage their project, because that is what you seem to be presenting.
Any company can fire their game designers, for changes on the direction of the game, scrap a project or start a new one. They are ultimately the final decision makers. If NCSoft gave tons of money to someone who was not working at all AND ruined years/millions of their investment it is absurd to think they retained his services further. Let alone offer to give him millions on top of that for a publicity stunt.
Again, nothing you have said makes sense when combined. For what you claim to be true NCSoft would have to just throw money time and time again at the Garriots despite watching him ruin the project and all things logical.
We are arguing at cross-purposes. The simple fact: NcSoft trusted too much to the Brand Name and provided too little oversight from Seoul.
Once they invested, they had the choice of firing the executives and losing all the original investment, or proceeding with the hope that it would work out.
Trust is a powerful thing in the business world. I read a lot of financial news, and misplaced trust can bring down a lot of smart and powerful businessmen.
While it is not the mission of business media to manage business, they are supposed to be providing facts for the investing public. A press that fawns over a "star" is one that never asks pertinent questions.
Comments
How can you say TR was good? It could have been good but they failed to fill the game with the needed content to make it good. Its failure is proof of this. RG is not alone in blame and most likely he was not the main reason it failed, but TR is a failure as an MMO.
TR was a good game but it was misplaced in the market, the way it was it would have made a a great single player RPG, and it wasn't bad as a online game the only problem is that people at the moment only know how to play WoW and its clones and TR didn't catter to those people.
TR did not fail for being different from WoW. Stop with the WoW and its clones line, it is tired and boring and a lame excuse for a lame game getting canned. TR was not an MMO, that is why it failed as an MMO.
As a single player game it would have been a failure too since it had no end game at release or anything close. TR was a disaster from the start. TR sold over 150k copies and before the axe fell they were down to around 25k subscriptions. TR had a horrible retention rate because it was boring after a couple of months.
WoW is not to blame for TRs demise, TR is to blame. Blaming WoW is weak.
Actually he has done plenty since UO. He was involved in COX and the Lineage games just to name a couple.
One things for sure, if he does reproduce a modern equivalent of what he acheived with UO, it would only be a good thing. I for one welcome him having another chance
I wonder who would risk the dozens of millions of dollars it would take to produce such a game? Could you picture yourself investing and risking your own money, for instance?
I disagree that it was doomed from the moment they decided to change the design.
My understanding is they spent 3+ years and a bucket load of money on the original design. And at some point they realised the game wasnt going to work. Now at this point a lot of companies would push it out the door to try and re-coup their investment.
Instead they scrapped that, used a different engine and basically started over. I think T.R failed because they didnt have enough time/money to complete the game. Apart from the vision issues.
So for their money NCSoft got two failed games. The original T.R that was scrapped, and the revamped T.R that launched.
That is basically what I was trying to say. Cutting the original design and shifting focus to a complete redesign didn't give the developers enough time or resources to make a game worthy of what was invested.
TR was really just what could be salvaged of a project that went wrong.
I hear what you are saying King. However I still do not believe that the Garriots together had so much contol of the project that they could do whatever they wanted when ever they wanted. Why would NCSoft allow a game designer and his brother so much control over the largest most expensive project they have. One that nearly crippled their company.
Furthermore why would Richard Garriot suddenly shift his passion from fantasy games to some alien first person shooter. Is it even plausable that he was scared of competiting with WoW, considering his ego?
For what you say to even be a consideration, NCSoft would have had to empower the Garriots with full and total control over what nearly amounts to the future of the company. Earlier you said he was to lazy to get into the office, yet you want to say he was responsible for completely revamping the entire game into something else? Little of what you claims collectively makes sense.
Everything about the decision to drastically alter, and ultimately ruin, the tabula rasa project makes sense from a corporate standpoint.
Please note that this does not mean in any way that I think RG is still a visionary designer he was many years ago. I loved some of the concepts he talked about in the demo videos and that really got me interested in the game. However little to none of that was delivered.
Hell, if I won the lottery, I'd write the man a check right now. The contigent being that it's a spiritual successor to UO. Medieval theme, change the names, keep the idea (And the virtues, if you can get away with it), make it better. Skill-based. Sandbox.
I tried TR as well. It was something different than what was being offered. It's not that I didn't like the premise, or the story, but it just didn't have that certain SOMETHING to keep me hooked. Perhaps I'm just a medieval-game whore that just can't get into Sci-Fi. Wouldnt' be much of a stretch from the truth, actually.
And no matter what anyone may think, just because his name is on the box doesn't mean he called the shots. His brother sits on a BOARD of directors.. Neither of them owned the company. They didn't act alone in a solitary cell of the company - The company knew exactly what it was doing when it scrapped and relaunched TR. In a corporation, no one stands alone. Not even Bill Gates could do whatever the flub he wanted with Microsoft. Even as the owner, chairman, founder.. He STILL had to work with others to make anything happen. And weather or not he agreed with what the company isn't particularly relevant, and unknown.
Makes me feel a bit of empathy for him. I know what it's like to shoulder the blame for a host of bad decisions not entirely my own. If it's his to bare, I'd give him the shot at redemption in a nanosecond.
You blindly accuse Garriot for the failure of Tabula Rasa. Little do you know that he was not the only designer on the game, and had to make sacrifices and comprimises numerous times if i remember correctly. The other designer didnt have a good relationship with Garriot, which from the start leads the game in a bad direction.
What little good in Tabula Rasa was tidbits of Garriots design elements, unfortunatley the mesh of the two designers was quite apparent, and the game suffered from limiting mechanics.
If Garriot has some creative freedom to create a new online RPG, I can't wait to see what he comes up with. A lot of people on this forum needs be more critical to the illusions in the media. The poor guys name was plastered on the box, used as a marketing ploy so people are quick to point fingers. Look a little bit deeper eh?
Why would NCSoft allow a game designer and his brother so much control over the largest most expensive project they have. One that nearly crippled their company.
Because they had the faith in them that you hear coming from many on this thread. Because NcSoft paid attention to the fans and thought they would give them what they wanted.
Because NcSoft trusted them.
Guys, guys... we blame RG for the failure of Tabular Rasa because the full name of the game is "Richard Garriot's Tabula Rasa".
Now repeat with me: RG TS.
He put his name on the game tittle and hi delivered a piece of crap, how are you expecting people to judge him?
Saying he shouldn't be blamed for the failure is like saying he Mark Jacobs shouldn't be blamed for the failure of WAR. Yeah, he was not the only one who made the game, but he was the one hyping it as the next big thing.
For me RG looks like a 3 year old toddler who asked to be a big boy (like that disney movie)
Anyways, if i had won the lotery i would pay Jacobs and Garriot to join forces into space.. and then I would pay one of the space station staff to cut thir oxigen feed while they are space walking.
BTW, whats the name for the next RG scam?
"Richard Garriot's Im to sexy for my games", "Richard Garriot's: I wish i could design something decent", or "Richard Garriot's: Come fly with me" or maybe "Richard Garriot's: The world is not big enough to house my ego, so I go into space".
So it is your position that the Garriots reacted to fan opinion and massively changed tabula rasa from a fantasy game to a space shooter? NCSoft had no real input and just let these two guys do whatever they wanted with the so much money that it could cripple the companies future?
I'm sorry, but nothing you have said makes any sense when you really think about it. There is no believable way to think things happened the way you want to paint them. I doubt any company is that irresponsible with such large sums of money, but anything is possible I guess.
Seriously, how do you think the massive redesign of the game came about? RG just did it and NCSoft was powerless or unaware of the changes? Do you really think NCSoft just sat around and watched this or does it make more sense that they were behind the changes?
I'm not saying the Garriots didn't deliver a shallow game, but someone forced this game to undergo massive changes that effectively guarenteed it would be a dud. Everything points to those changes coming from executive/marketing people and not some out of control designers.
Garriot is not the only one to blame but he's guilty non the less. Besides anyone can make a crappy game, played the expansion to the first Diablo game?
Garriot needed a reality check, in same way Mark Jakobs & Barnett needed one, a few good ideas and lots of cash ain't enough to make great game.
But failing do give you experience so next time they can make a better game. Having more than one people for the creative bussiness is the same as having a rock band, if you don't the same thing, you will probably flop but in TRs case I don't think that is the only problem.
Another reason TR flopped so badly was that they didn't have any great programmers, they were passable but that ain't enough. One of the reasons that Guildwars sold so much was that it is so good programmed. The too early release was the last nail in the coffin.
Let's hope Garriot learns from his misstakes and makes a great game next time.
So it is your position that the Garriots reacted to fan opinion and massively changed tabula rasa from a fantasy game to a space shooter?
The first version (although, it was really the second. The Garrriotts abandoned their first project in 2001 when the CEO of NcSoft came along with their extravagant buyout of Destination Games and the Garriott "brand") was abandoned because it was received very poorly at an electronic exhibit by both fans and other developers. During the same time frame, WOW was released to astounding success and the relation ship between NcSoft, the Garriotts and Jake Song broke down. It looked like sheer panic to me.
I also fault the Western media coverage of the development of this game. The only hard questions and real reporting took place in Korea, and you'd have to be interested enough in facts rather than the fiction that our gaming "news" sources provide. Wired, Escapist...all have been charmed stupid by Richard Garriott. If you truly want to know how it progressed, go to the Korea Times and search back to 2001. Also dig into NcSoft.net. But to someone in Austin who followed the story who had a financial interest in knowing how it came about, it wasn't hard to understand. But the Austin press was generally more interested in his entertainments and antics than the game business. Now they can watch the company move to Seattle and their friends get laid off. They should have done their jobs, and maybe put some pressure on the brothers to perform.
NCSoft had no real input and just let these two guys do whatever they wanted with the so much money that it could cripple the companies future?
NcSoft was entering into a new market and they invested huge amounts of money in the Garriotts, which fed their egos to the point that their heads almost exploded. It led to much arrogance and laziness. They started to regard the money not as something they were expected to work for, but a tribute to their greatness.
Once NcSoft had given them all that money, it's like when you drill a well and hope for oil. It costs a fortune to drill, but where's the oil? Do you stop drilling, stop spending money on the drill? If you do that, you have lost your money. So you keep investing, and keep hoping. So the investors at some point had to stop, and say, "release the game." This happened very conveniently in the fall of 2007, when stock options were sold the same day TR was released. It was also the same time that Richard announced his flight into space. Probably those options were sold to pay the Russians for his ticket.
I'm saying that the CEO had little power after years of development. When you hand over a pile of money to get someone to do a job, what leverage do you have to actually make sure that job is done, other than to fire him? Then you lose your money. The Seoul CEO just was in a lousy position to make the Garriotts deliver.
Factor in the fact that the CEO in Austin was Richard's brother, who didn't exactly have an interest in bringing authority to bear on Richard.
I guess Garriott wants to take a trip down to the Titanic or something and needs more cash from some sucker company to make it happen.
I wish some company would give Raph Koster that money instead.
Heh, Koster has already demonstrated twice that any game needs a huge redesign if he's allowed to be project lead. He might have "vision" just like Brad, but sadly making the vision true and working lacks...
Playing: AC2
Played: UO, DaoC, Horizons, Ryzom, WAR, LotRO, Eve, VG...
I don't know, both those games were my 2 favorite MMORPG's before they let someone else in and eventually ruin them.
I thought TR was a good games. I believe its a fact it is just ncsoft not delivering. Cuase look at Guild Wars, freaking like 3 campaigns and 1 expansion, only max lv is 20. The game is good, but it was just ncsoft holding mose of the developers back or something. Look at COH/COV cryptic technically left to do their own business. Mostly don't blame Richard Gariott, blame all the people of ncsoft or the devlopers who just didnt give a dang. TR was pretty good in my book, compared to alot of mmos, and definatly one of the best scifi. Look right now all you got is anarchy online, SWG, and EVE. And some of the unknown name stuff. Hopefully this will bea good year for mmos, I dont really like talking crap about a company cuase about every major company I like something bout them and their games. And by the way I do believe WoW is pretty mucha clone of EQ and all rpgs date back from DnD so eventually just goes in a loop.
My all general opinion of NC soft has changed during this, i was gonna play Aion and was looking forward to it, but ive since had a change of heart and dont want to pick up any Nc Soft game again.
TR has always been treated 2nd class by them, and dont get me wrong the game had its faults, i for one i finished at lvl 30 due to the repeat nature of a game.
One thing is for sure thoe, even after release it takes a fair bit of time to get things right, the game was rushed to release and lost a lot of subscribers including me in the open beta, when i went back 5 months later it had vastly improved, i did intend going back again after another 6 months, but thats not going to happen now.
Whats the shame here is the amount of work wasted, NC soft should have stuck it out at least another 12 months, the game was still in its infancy and had lots of potential.
But they dumped after 12 months and this is why i wont pay or play another NCsoft game, why should i waste my money and time on a game to have dumped so quick.
They can be a lot finger pointing, but mine is straight at NCsoft themselves.
Playing: FFXIV
Future: wishing for SWG 2, World of Warcraft Classic
Played: Most current and extinct MMO's - 18 Years in....
Interesting Fact - I own 27 Tarantula's
Kinglee, I do enjoy your posts and you seem to be very interested in the goings on of NCSoft, however all of this makes little practical sense when looked at collectively. It reads more like a bad afterschool special staring the dad from growing pains.
At one point you say that the press in Austin is somehow at fault and suggest they had some sort of power of the game that they were not exercising. Yet you also say the company that was holding the purse strings and owned everything was somehow not in a position to do anything.
For example you said the CEO wasn't in a position to do anything after investing so much money. I say they were in a position to try do whatever they wanted to try to make their investment work. It need not go as far as termination, but they sure could do something like force a complete revamp of the game from a fantasy game to a alien shooter. Doesn't that make much more sense?
I don't think any game developer on the planet could have delivered a great game under these circumstances. RG might be great or all washed up, but it is nearly impossible to tell based on the outcome of TR due to the situation.
I really think we would see better games out of some of the past designer greats if they were put in an environment where they were managed, but at the same time give some freedom to be creative. They certainly cannot be in charge of the whole show (Garriot/McQuaid) nor can they be rushed and cut short of their designs (Koster-swg).
Also I'm curious about the reviews the original game had. I've seen only a very little bit about it. Any links you can share would be appreciated.
Funny, in Texas to people that dont know about video games R. Garriot is known as some crazy rich guy who lives in a castle.
that about sums him up
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
Let me try another metaphor. The Banks in the US have lent a lot of money to people who bought houses that lost their value, and now those borrowers are not paying the money back.
Who's in real trouble, the borrowers or the banks? You can see from the news that the banks are going under.
Once the money is out of your hands, you lose power over the transaction. The banks can foreclose, but that's still a huge loser for the bank.
Better that the bank not lend the money in the first place! But NcSoft gave out lots of money, upfront, in the belief that the Garriott brothers knew what they were doing. After that, they didn't have much control. They just had to wait anxiously for seven years and hope.
In the meantime, no media in the US following the gaming industry asked any hard questions of the brothers.They just wrote stories about his cool toys and lavish lifestyles. They could have asked, "How can you spend so much time playing and get any work done?" for instance.
wow this right here pretty much prooves that RG had Tabula Rasa going in the right direction and that he probably isnt _____*insert descriminations from previous posts in this thread*. I mean some of the ideas in this video most likely came from his mind, if you look at the 2005 E3 trailer, you can see that it went through the revamp so it happened sometime between 2004-2005. Maybe this was because of higher-up people at NCSoft, maybe it was because of RG, or both. We will never know so you shouldnt lose faith in him and his video game creating capabilites.
As much as I dislike analogies, because they are not representative and people chose to only pay attention to what they think supports their ideas, I think you have disproved your point with this one.
In this case the bank who has lent out money has many options, just like NCSoft does. One being a forclosure, which in the case of Tabula Rasa would be similar in nature to a complete redesign of that game. Neither of those options is what either company would want to do in ideal situations, but they are the only ones with the power to do so in their respective cases. Again, not that I think the lending industry is a representative example of this specific case, but you can see in each case who has authority.
Both the bank and NCSoft had in their power drastic measures they could enact upon the people they gave lots of money to. Neither the burrower or game designer can ultimately do as they please, because they somehow have final authority.
Ask yourself if you think RG had the authority to make these changes and is responsible for setting the project back to a near impossible state. Not to mention why he would want his roots of fantasy game in order to make a first person alien shooter, right in the middle of the project.
As for the media, how are they supposed to know what the goals are. NCSoft is ultimately responsible for making a product, the media is responsible for writing entertaining articles about things people might find interesting. The media is not responsible for making sure RG makes his deadlines and isn't a fruitcake.
Look at thing objectively and you will see you hold reporters of gaming columns more responsible than the company that had millions invested in the game.
I don't know how much more to say to illustrate what I think is an obvious point--once the cash leaves your pocket and enters the pocket of someone else, you've lost a lot of control. You also need good oversight if your new company is across the ocean from HQ, and they hired the star's brother for that.
If you looked back to the reports from 2001, the CEO Seoul put enormous faith upfront that was probably not wise. "OK, you've got the money. Now build me a game." well, maybe, but this weekend I'm riding the Vomit Comet...next week is Mardi Gras...and I'm taking magic lessons from this guy in Vegas...and there's this boxing tournament...want a tour of my mansion? This is what was covered by the gaming press, everything but the game. But you could read more serious business news in the Korea press. The Americans thought the money would go on forever, just like they expected their mortgaged houses to continually go up in value.
Yes, the banks can foreclose. And, guess what--the bank can go bankrupt when they can't sell the foreclosed property. Washington Mutual. Lehman Brothers. Foreclosure is not a great option. And my analogy also breaks down because they can't foreclose on the Garriotts, unless they try to take them to court.
The premise that a company has no control over its employees, divisions and projects just because they have already spent some money is flawed. You act like NCSoft was powerless to stop RG from making drastic changes to the game that nullified millions of dollars and years of work.
I don't care what the press covered to be honest. It is not their job nor expectation to make sure TR is a succesful product. That is a point you seem to not understand is the responsibility of NCSoft. Garriot was acting like a circus clown and they covered the stories. That is how american media works. Do you think NCSoft was relying on the media of another nation to manage their project, because that is what you seem to be presenting.
Any company can fire their game designers, for changes on the direction of the game, scrap a project or start a new one. They are ultimately the final decision makers. If NCSoft gave tons of money to someone who was not working at all AND ruined years/millions of their investment it is absurd to think they retained his services further. Let alone offer to give him millions on top of that for a publicity stunt.
Again, nothing you have said makes sense when combined. For what you claim to be true NCSoft would have to just throw money time and time again at the Garriots despite watching him ruin the project and all things logical.
We are arguing at cross-purposes. The simple fact: NcSoft trusted too much to the Brand Name and provided too little oversight from Seoul.
Once they invested, they had the choice of firing the executives and losing all the original investment, or proceeding with the hope that it would work out.
Trust is a powerful thing in the business world. I read a lot of financial news, and misplaced trust can bring down a lot of smart and powerful businessmen.
While it is not the mission of business media to manage business, they are supposed to be providing facts for the investing public. A press that fawns over a "star" is one that never asks pertinent questions.