I'd have a bit more confidence in that information had it been directly attributed to someone from Bioware, rather than the nebulous "Edge Staff" credited for writing the article.
I'd have a bit more confidence in that information had it been directly attributed to someone from Bioware, rather than the nebulous "Edge Staff" credited for writing the article.
i think so to, but it can't be ignored. whoever wrote that article clearly had much more access then the fan base.
Originally posted by singsofdeath The problem here is, if you make characters be able to do -everything- then there is -no- interdependency. There is a fine line between making characters universally useful and making them overpowered. Of course, if any character can fulfill any role, you might say that it's basically back to the status quo.
If that were true, then how would you explain a game like Left 4 Dead?
What's there to explain? Is Left4Dead an MMO? As far as I was aware it's an FPS, isn't it?
I wouldn't want to compare an FPS to MMO. Unless you start talking about games like Darkfall. But as far as we know, TOR won't have twitch combat. Adding twitch combat also adds a whole different dimension to the encounters, a lot changes. I am pretty sure that in twitch combat the "non"-Trinity could be realized better.
Hmmm, gonna have to think about this again.
If you were talking about interdependency, I think I actually explained that wrong in my first post. No interdependency is of course not true, since you would still need more than one person to beat certain scenarios. I was more talking about the interdependency in a fight itself. As in, a damage-soaker can't, at the same time, put out insane DPS, and a DPS can't at the same time heal etc.
No, it's not an MMO. However, it is a multiplayer online game with a significant emphasis on cooperation — sans the "holy trinity" paradigm. I'm not certain how the first-person-shooter nature of the title is even relevant to this discussion.
My only point was allowing players to fulfill multiple roles (not locking them into the tank/dps/healer cliche) does not necessarily equate to the death of challenge, fun, or interdependence.
we didnt tank / dps / healer classes. There wasnt any taunt abilities and anyone could heal themselves with stimpacks if they took up basic medic skill.
Many a night my guild and I would kill a krayt. The fight would last 30-45 minutes targeting the mind pool. I as the TKM / Master Swordsman usually took the most damage in melee range. Sometimes the krayt would go for a ranged rifleman but it would usually return to me. I guess I was sorta the tank but I did as much damage as any other player there and i could heal myself.
250 skill points to spend amongst 32 professions allowed for multiple play options well BEYOND the simplistic holy trinity design.
When asking for a different system, what your really asking for is Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu. Unfortunately corporations have taken over the MMO industry and dumbed it down for the masses
The only alternative I can think of would be something like this...
Players can not heal themselves or others if they are engaged in combat or someone in their party is engaged in combat. This would force players / groups to consider their relative skills and if they can gain some tactical advantage in the fight before engaging an enemy or group of enemies. After combat is over, each player would have the ability to heal themself via bots, equipment or other acquired skills.
Instead of the Holy Trinity of "tank, DPS, heal", combat mechanics and encounters could be designed around players avoiding damage through skills, manuevers and utilizing the terrain. What might be considered "exploiting" in traditional MMO's would be acceptable tactics here. If a group can attack from a position where their enemies cannot reach them, they stand a good chance of winning the fight, assuming their enemies have no ranged attacks or other tricks. Each class might specialize in a specific type of "DPS", but players would have the ability to develop unique defensive abilities: dodging, reflecting damage, camoflage, utilizing cover, etc. Each defensive ability would be situational and balanced in a way that players would have to chose what path to excel in.
There is no aggro mechanics, enemies chose their targets based on other priorities; who is in their line of sight, who is closer or furthest away, who is an easier kill based on damage the player has taken. Enemies might be "sensitive" to certain types of damage which would trigger the enemy to prioritize that player first if other conditions are met. In this way, you could be dealing the most sustained damage in a group, but if you are positioned well and playing to your defensive strengths, the enemy might never come after you.
Armor will not hold up for long under any type of direct damage and therefore mitigation would be minimal - enough that players don't get one-shotted. Armor is used to give player's resistances to specific environmental effects, to mitigate indirect / splash damage and to provide player's with slots to equip various upgrades. It won't matter what type of helmet you're wearing, a direct blaster shot to the face might not kill you in one shot but it's going to hurt real bad.
If a player is targetted, they would need to find cover, try to regain a situational advantage or attempt to disengage while the rest of the group tries to attract its attention.
Anyway, I'm sure there are numerous flaws with this but on the surface I like it.
Yes, and it was a colossal disappointment, both as a gamer and a Star Wars nerd.
Originally posted by admriker4
we didnt tank / dps / healer classes. There wasnt any taunt abilities and anyone could heal themselves with stimpacks if they took up basic medic skill.
We didn't need any of that because the game was ridiculously broken. With the right build or enough doc buffs, you could solo a Krayt in your underpants.
Originally posted by admriker4
When asking for a different system, what your really asking for is Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu. Unfortunately corporations have taken over the MMO industry and dumbed it down for the masses
When was the industry not run by corporations? And no, I assure you, I'm most certainly NOT asking for Star Wars Galaxies pre-CU.
The Healer/Tank/DPS setup is known as the MMO Holy Trinity and has endured for a reason; because it works well and there are no real alternatives to group-vs-boss PVE gameplay. I suppose you could possibly do away with "bosses" that need to be tanked and have all fights be group-vs-group; i.e. instead of having 1 "boss" Dark Jedi to kill, you have a squad of 20 Stormtroopers; I know I wouldn't fancy trying to keep alive a half-dozen ballistic DPSmonkeys There have been games out there that have designed "combat healers" that heal passively as they fight, reducing the "healbot" effect to virtual non-existance. I wouldn't get your hopes up though; the Holy Trinity is still the preferred method for PVE gaming and is almost certainly going to represented in TOR somehow. For my part, I hope they make the "tanking" focus on avoidance rather than mitigation; I really detest the thought of stabbing "a boss" through the chest with a lightsaber and them only losing 1% of their life. Sadly, immersion often has to sacrificed for the sake of basic gameplay sometimes.
There are other systems. Stargate World use a shoot & cover model .. going AWAY from a tank/heal/dps model. I duno how successful that is .. time will tell.
Comments
I guess we have to live with the fact that 99% of mmos are crap and single player like games are cool...
Wait, when did they announce there'd only be 8 "class's"?
http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/inside-the-old-republic?page=0,0
page 3.
I'd have a bit more confidence in that information had it been directly attributed to someone from Bioware, rather than the nebulous "Edge Staff" credited for writing the article.
Wait, when did they announce there'd only be 8 "class's"?
http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/inside-the-old-republic?page=0,0
page 3.
I'd have a bit more confidence in that information had it been directly attributed to someone from Bioware, rather than the nebulous "Edge Staff" credited for writing the article.
i think so to, but it can't be ignored. whoever wrote that article clearly had much more access then the fan base.
If that were true, then how would you explain a game like Left 4 Dead?
What's there to explain? Is Left4Dead an MMO? As far as I was aware it's an FPS, isn't it?
I wouldn't want to compare an FPS to MMO. Unless you start talking about games like Darkfall. But as far as we know, TOR won't have twitch combat. Adding twitch combat also adds a whole different dimension to the encounters, a lot changes. I am pretty sure that in twitch combat the "non"-Trinity could be realized better.
Hmmm, gonna have to think about this again.
If you were talking about interdependency, I think I actually explained that wrong in my first post. No interdependency is of course not true, since you would still need more than one person to beat certain scenarios. I was more talking about the interdependency in a fight itself. As in, a damage-soaker can't, at the same time, put out insane DPS, and a DPS can't at the same time heal etc.
No, it's not an MMO. However, it is a multiplayer online game with a significant emphasis on cooperation — sans the "holy trinity" paradigm. I'm not certain how the first-person-shooter nature of the title is even relevant to this discussion.
My only point was allowing players to fulfill multiple roles (not locking them into the tank/dps/healer cliche) does not necessarily equate to the death of challenge, fun, or interdependence.
anyone play star wars galaxies pre-cu ?
we didnt tank / dps / healer classes. There wasnt any taunt abilities and anyone could heal themselves with stimpacks if they took up basic medic skill.
Many a night my guild and I would kill a krayt. The fight would last 30-45 minutes targeting the mind pool. I as the TKM / Master Swordsman usually took the most damage in melee range. Sometimes the krayt would go for a ranged rifleman but it would usually return to me. I guess I was sorta the tank but I did as much damage as any other player there and i could heal myself.
250 skill points to spend amongst 32 professions allowed for multiple play options well BEYOND the simplistic holy trinity design.
When asking for a different system, what your really asking for is Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu. Unfortunately corporations have taken over the MMO industry and dumbed it down for the masses
The only alternative I can think of would be something like this...
Players can not heal themselves or others if they are engaged in combat or someone in their party is engaged in combat. This would force players / groups to consider their relative skills and if they can gain some tactical advantage in the fight before engaging an enemy or group of enemies. After combat is over, each player would have the ability to heal themself via bots, equipment or other acquired skills.
Instead of the Holy Trinity of "tank, DPS, heal", combat mechanics and encounters could be designed around players avoiding damage through skills, manuevers and utilizing the terrain. What might be considered "exploiting" in traditional MMO's would be acceptable tactics here. If a group can attack from a position where their enemies cannot reach them, they stand a good chance of winning the fight, assuming their enemies have no ranged attacks or other tricks. Each class might specialize in a specific type of "DPS", but players would have the ability to develop unique defensive abilities: dodging, reflecting damage, camoflage, utilizing cover, etc. Each defensive ability would be situational and balanced in a way that players would have to chose what path to excel in.
There is no aggro mechanics, enemies chose their targets based on other priorities; who is in their line of sight, who is closer or furthest away, who is an easier kill based on damage the player has taken. Enemies might be "sensitive" to certain types of damage which would trigger the enemy to prioritize that player first if other conditions are met. In this way, you could be dealing the most sustained damage in a group, but if you are positioned well and playing to your defensive strengths, the enemy might never come after you.
Armor will not hold up for long under any type of direct damage and therefore mitigation would be minimal - enough that players don't get one-shotted. Armor is used to give player's resistances to specific environmental effects, to mitigate indirect / splash damage and to provide player's with slots to equip various upgrades. It won't matter what type of helmet you're wearing, a direct blaster shot to the face might not kill you in one shot but it's going to hurt real bad.
If a player is targetted, they would need to find cover, try to regain a situational advantage or attempt to disengage while the rest of the group tries to attract its attention.
Anyway, I'm sure there are numerous flaws with this but on the surface I like it.
Yes, and it was a colossal disappointment, both as a gamer and a Star Wars nerd.
We didn't need any of that because the game was ridiculously broken. With the right build or enough doc buffs, you could solo a Krayt in your underpants.
When was the industry not run by corporations? And no, I assure you, I'm most certainly NOT asking for Star Wars Galaxies pre-CU.
Hybrids is the age old argument, heard a million times on these boards..
Problem is they just don't work, and they will never work in any MMO with ideal class stats being an option.
No MMO with hybrid classes has ever shown it to be a popular or effective system. Not when alternatives of full specialization exist within the game.
They sound good but usually only to people who have never played a hybrid class or an MMO with hybrids in it.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
There are other systems. Stargate World use a shoot & cover model .. going AWAY from a tank/heal/dps model. I duno how successful that is .. time will tell.
TOR can have other models too.