Join the darkfall boat. Iv played FAR to many WoW spin-offs and the formula is getting tiresome.
is crafting a secondary skill that anyone can do or is it like star wars galaxies where taking crafting profession means not taking a combat skill.
I want real crafting where i can set up a shop and sell my goods. Im tired of wow clones where everyone has 5 toons per server and can craft all items without need for interdependence.
combat just doesnt interest me that much anymore. After killing 5 bajillion orcs and stormtroopers, I prefer just existing in the virtual world.
from the grainy video I saw for Darkfall it just showed massive pvp raids on castles.
I didn't read the whole thread, only the OP's post. I'd like to see exactly WHERE your "statistics" regarding WoW's player base comes from.
I find it truly arrogant of the people who always make these assumptions about the player base. I've played WoW since it's release, and I am not a rarity, nor am I an MMO "n00b." I came from UO days. The very first game I played was PONG. I cut my gaming teeth on Atari. I've played a LOT of MMOs other than UO and WoW even, and still DO.
I would love to see some REAL (not made up on the fly by someone who obviously doesn't LIKE the game) statistics on WoW's player base, their previous gaming experience, ages, etc. I think if we had REAL statistics to look at, it would be rather enlightening to those people that insist on believing that WoW is predominantly only played by 10 year olds, and genre n00bs. The people that still play WoW, MOSTLY still play because they find something ENJOYABLE about it, regardless of their past MMO gaming, in all likelihood. I doubt that most people (although I don't have statistics, just like you) continue to pay a bill every month and buy expansions, for something they don't enjoy.
Pfffft.
As far as the QUESTION you put forth.....I'd imagine it would require there BEING another really great game out there to SEE what would happen, now wouldn't it? So making predictions on things that don't exist is about as silly as making assumptions on things with no real evidence. Not a "game" I'm interested in "playing." Enjoy your fantasies.
EDIT: And on "beating" WotLK....ROFLMAO! Yeah, okay. I'd have to see evidence of an entire guild in all t7 gear, with exalted status across the board with EVERY faction, all of their achievements completed, etc., etc., ad INFINITUM. Beat WotLK....HAHAHAHA....right. What you really mean is that you rushed to 80 without reading any of the quests. You probably don't know a BIT of the game's lore, haven't followed the Wrath story-lines, and probably don't have any maxed crafters either. Yes....those are assumptions. How far off am I? lol (I'm pretty sure you'll lie about it, so it doesn't really matter, does it?)
I give the majority of WoW players more credit than that most of WoWs core are only half of the 11.5 million the rest are Chinese gold farmers or bored kids who have stepped up from Runescape. Thier probably just as bored from World of Borecraft as everyone else, just play to bide the time. I don't think they will leave for DF though DF may be to aggrevating for them they will probably hopscotch over to Spellborn, some might stay try some other games until The Old Republic comes out and settle there.
It's funny..all the posters that want WoW to die and think , perhaps, that developers will retreat back to an 8-10 year old game model. EQ and UO are still running...go play them. Sure they've been changed and nerfed to hell...but thats as close as you're likely to get to your precious favorites....because even if WoW dies tomorrow...gamemakers will still try to mimic a game that had 11.5 million subscribers...no matter what percentage were goldfarmers.
Originally posted by BarCrow It's funny..all the posters that want WoW to die and think , perhaps, that developers will retreat back to an 8-10 year old game model. EQ and UO are still running...go play them. Sure they've been changed and nerfed to hell...but thats as close as you're likely to get to your precious favorites....because even if WoW dies tomorrow...gamemakers will still try to mimic a game that had 11.5 million subscribers...no matter what percentage were goldfarmers.
Lol...yeah...they've been changed to be more like WoW.
WoW has damaged the MMORPG industry...but not beyond repair.
New games being released (Darkfall, Jumpgate Evolution, Earthrise, Spellborn, to name a few) ARE returning to the classic MMORPG model, and actually evolving it in positive ways.
Not every gaming company is a greedy corporate entity in seach of the biggest buck. Some developers still make games for the love of making games.
It's funny..all the posters that want WoW to die and think , perhaps, that developers will retreat back to an 8-10 year old game model. EQ and UO are still running...go play them. Sure they've been changed and nerfed to hell...but thats as close as you're likely to get to your precious favorites....because even if WoW dies tomorrow...gamemakers will still try to mimic a game that had 11.5 million subscribers...no matter what percentage were goldfarmers.
Lol...yeah...they've been changed to be more like WoW.
WoW has damaged the MMORPG industry...but not beyond repair.
New games being released (Darkfall, Jumpgate Evolution, Earthrise, Spellborn, to name a few) ARE returning to the classic MMORPG model, and actually evolving it in positive ways.
Not every gaming company is a greedy corporate entity in seach of the biggest buck. Some developers still make games for the love of making games.
I hope you're right....seems many of the new mmo's need to pass a plate around as soon as they debut...then you have the extreme like WoW which still passes out a plate...they just put whatever they want on it and millions eat it up. Sad thing is ..I like wow..play it and a few other mmos...but none of them are phenomenal. Imo. I just get tired of all the "die Wow die..and waaaagh for the old games" posts. If WoW was still as polished as it is now but only had 250,000-500,000 subs...i wonder if the haters would still be as adamant in their ire.
I don't know why the hell they would stay maybe they like the pretty mounts and OP classes and 12 year old weenerheads facerolling across the game. Come to think of it, thats perfect for Chinas game market. I think since most of the wow ""playerbase"" lols is made up primarily of retarded childred and raging fanatics they may have a hard time even figuring out how to play another mmorpg so, I'm gonna play it safe and say they stick to pacman after they get bored on wow.
Originally posted by BarCrow Originally posted by Pentamorph
Originally posted by BarCrow It's funny..all the posters that want WoW to die and think , perhaps, that developers will retreat back to an 8-10 year old game model. EQ and UO are still running...go play them. Sure they've been changed and nerfed to hell...but thats as close as you're likely to get to your precious favorites....because even if WoW dies tomorrow...gamemakers will still try to mimic a game that had 11.5 million subscribers...no matter what percentage were goldfarmers.
Lol...yeah...they've been changed to be more like WoW. WoW has damaged the MMORPG industry...but not beyond repair. New games being released (Darkfall, Jumpgate Evolution, Earthrise, Spellborn, to name a few) ARE returning to the classic MMORPG model, and actually evolving it in positive ways. Not every gaming company is a greedy corporate entity in seach of the biggest buck. Some developers still make games for the love of making games.
I hope you're right....seems many of the new mmo's need to pass a plate around as soon as they debut...then you have the extreme like WoW which still passes out a plate...they just put whatever they want on it and millions eat it up. Sad thing is ..I like wow..play it and a few other mmos...but none of them are phenomenal. Imo. I just get tired of all the "die Wow die..and waaaagh for the old games" posts. If WoW was still as polished as it is now but only had 250,000-500,000 subs...i wonder if the haters would still be as adamant in their ire.
Nah, because if there were only 250 - 500k wow subs, other game companies wouldn't have all tried to copy it, and we would have better games to play.
We NEED WoW to live on, as it is, to contain the cesspool that is the WoW player-base, now that game developers are FINALLY starting to understand that WoW-clones aren't going to cut it.
TBH I dont see the asian market diminishing which is the majority of wow players.
lets not forget battlenet
Before wow, most of the 11 million wow gamers didnt play mmorpgs. There were only 7 million tops for the entire genre so its not possible that most wow gamers are vets of mmo's. Even if the other combined MMO's all lost 1 million players (which they didnt), that stil leaves 10 million increased population to the industry. Factor in that maybe 10-20% are mmo vets who just werent subscribed to any game before wow and that =
8 to 9 million new players to MMO's playing in WoW.
So what were those 8-9 million doing before WoW ? Many were battlenet babies. And when Diablo 3 launches I bet many will return to battlenet.
If any of those 8-9 million were going to jump ship and try another MMO they would have done so by now. We would have seen a surge in population numbers in at least one MMO by now. Yet none of the other MMO's have grown much if at all. Had a game like say Vanguard gone from 50k players to 200k you could argue that wow gamers are looking for something more complex, but that didnt happen.
The MMO market will shrink back to pre-wow numbers once wow loses its appeal. The only way it doesnt happen is if another Britney Spears mass appeal MMO launches that goes mainstream / trendy appeal. I only see one MMO that might have that chance (The Old Republic) but its slim
Again, that 7 million figure was active subscribers at one point in time. That is not an all encompassing number of total people that have ever played mmos over a number of years before WoW. If the number was 7 million that would mean every game had a 100% retention rate.
Also that does not count many other people who have played mmos and quit, were inactive, free to play players or people who just didn't like the offerings prior to WoW. Subscribers being the key word. The number of people with mmo experience was much larger than that at the time.
Also the flawed conclusion that 11+ million people have never played anything other than WoW is silly. Just because other games cannot retain players that try their games is not proof that people are not trying them. For other games to not be able to capitalize on at least some of the churn in WoW says a lot about other games in comparison. I wish it were not true, but most other games are a step down, less content, buggy or some other major flaw. Over a million people tried AOC/War. Where do you think those people came from? Why do you think they stopped playing and the momentum of those games died out? The answer is pretty obvious.
The problem isn't the people, it is the current market.
So you say companies will not try to copy games with 200-500k users? Did you forget what game is being discussed [WoW] and what game is was modeled after [EQ].
@admriker4 Again, that 7 million figure was active subscribers at one point in time. That is not an all encompassing number of total people that have ever played mmos over a number of years before WoW. If the number was 7 million that would mean every game had a 100% retention rate. Also that does not count many other people who have played mmos and quit, were inactive, free to play players or people who just didn't like the offerings prior to WoW. Subscribers being the key word. The number of people with mmo experience was much larger than that at the time. Also the flawed conclusion that 11+ million people have never played anything other than WoW is silly. Just because other games cannot retain players that try their games is not proof that people are not trying them. For other games to not be able to capitalize on at least some of the churn in WoW says a lot about other games in comparison. I wish it were not true, but most other games are a step down, less content, buggy or some other major flaw. Over a million people tried AOC/War. Where do you think those people came from? Why do you think they stopped playing and the momentum of those games died out? The answer is pretty obvious.
The problem isn't the people, it is the current market.
@Pentamorph So you say companies will not try to copy games with 200-500k users? Did you forget what game is being discussed [WoW] and what game is was modeled after [EQ].
In my last post I figured in 10-20% who werent active members of a MMO. Thats quite a lot of ex-players sitting around doing nothing till wow came around.
The other MMO's didnt really lose many players when wow launched. Some like SWG lost 50k. So the 7 million that were in MMO's to begin when WoW launched. I estimated 1 million from other MMO's anyway as a safe number.
Your right though, its still a guess. ex MMO players could number 7 million (instead of the 1-2 million I estimated). So even if it was that high, that still leaves 3.5-4ish million new to MMO's playing WoW.
i doubt though there were 7 million ex-mmo players out there at wow's launch just waiting to get back in.
Either way that still means millions of players new to MMO's playing WoW. Most of which I suspect crossed over from Battle net.
Since the majority of everyone at this forum is wow haters I find it really hard to take anything you say seriously. And the polls for voting is also hilarious.
Maybe they should make one like this just for pointing out the funny part.
Originally posted by admriker4 In my last post I figured in 10-20% who werent active members of a MMO. Thats quite a lot of ex-players sitting around doing nothing till wow came around. The other MMO's didnt really lose many players when wow launched. Some like SWG lost 50k. So the 7 million that were in MMO's to begin when WoW launched. I estimated 1 million from other MMO's anyway as a safe number. Your right though, its still a guess. ex MMO players could number 7 million (instead of the 1-2 million I estimated). So even if it was that high, that still leaves 3.5-4ish million new to MMO's playing WoW. i doubt though there were 7 million ex-mmo players out there at wow's launch just waiting to get back in. Either way that still means millions of players new to MMO's playing WoW. Most of which I suspect crossed over from Battle net.
I'll try to explain it again.
The charts estimate that there were around 7 million paying subscribers to mmos prior to the release or WoW. Those were active accounts at the point in time right before WoW released. Not an all inclusive number of people who have ever set foot in a virtual world. Concurrent subscriptions is a better term.
That does not include anyone in free to play games and there are tons of them.
That does not include anyone who played, but had quit mmos prior to that time.
That does not count how many people tried MMOs, but didn't find them to their liking.
I think it is safe to assume that the retention rate of mmos was no where close to 100% over 5 or so years and the number of people exposed to mmos was far far larger than 7 million.
I'm not really following your numbers especially when you said something like 9 million players must be new. Obviously there is a great deal of new players to the genre in WoW, but it looks to be going along the predicted curve of new people joining the market. www.mmogchart.com/Chart4.html
The mmo virgin of today isn't anything like the virgin of 10 years ago. Online gaming has saturated every walk of life and isn't some closet hobby only played by obscure gaming nerds.
Obviously there is a huge market for MMOs right now and we can see evidence that there is room for other large titles when AOC/War each sell over a million copies in a couple months. That kind of initial momentum suggests that there are plenty of people willing to stay in the genre if the right conditions are met. People are drawing all sorts of conclusions about what the market will be like based on the people playing the games and completely ignoring that the important aspect to retaining players is the actual game.
If all the market does is keep churning out shallow incomplete diku clones then of course people are going to go away. Warcraft isn't some unbreachable juggernaught and in fact is very vulnerable if someone puts a little effort into their release.
Comments
Join the darkfall boat. Iv played FAR to many WoW spin-offs and the formula is getting tiresome.
is crafting a secondary skill that anyone can do or is it like star wars galaxies where taking crafting profession means not taking a combat skill.
I want real crafting where i can set up a shop and sell my goods. Im tired of wow clones where everyone has 5 toons per server and can craft all items without need for interdependence.
combat just doesnt interest me that much anymore. After killing 5 bajillion orcs and stormtroopers, I prefer just existing in the virtual world.
from the grainy video I saw for Darkfall it just showed massive pvp raids on castles.
I didn't read the whole thread, only the OP's post. I'd like to see exactly WHERE your "statistics" regarding WoW's player base comes from.
I find it truly arrogant of the people who always make these assumptions about the player base. I've played WoW since it's release, and I am not a rarity, nor am I an MMO "n00b." I came from UO days. The very first game I played was PONG. I cut my gaming teeth on Atari. I've played a LOT of MMOs other than UO and WoW even, and still DO.
I would love to see some REAL (not made up on the fly by someone who obviously doesn't LIKE the game) statistics on WoW's player base, their previous gaming experience, ages, etc. I think if we had REAL statistics to look at, it would be rather enlightening to those people that insist on believing that WoW is predominantly only played by 10 year olds, and genre n00bs. The people that still play WoW, MOSTLY still play because they find something ENJOYABLE about it, regardless of their past MMO gaming, in all likelihood. I doubt that most people (although I don't have statistics, just like you) continue to pay a bill every month and buy expansions, for something they don't enjoy.
Pfffft.
As far as the QUESTION you put forth.....I'd imagine it would require there BEING another really great game out there to SEE what would happen, now wouldn't it? So making predictions on things that don't exist is about as silly as making assumptions on things with no real evidence. Not a "game" I'm interested in "playing." Enjoy your fantasies.
EDIT: And on "beating" WotLK....ROFLMAO! Yeah, okay. I'd have to see evidence of an entire guild in all t7 gear, with exalted status across the board with EVERY faction, all of their achievements completed, etc., etc., ad INFINITUM. Beat WotLK....HAHAHAHA....right. What you really mean is that you rushed to 80 without reading any of the quests. You probably don't know a BIT of the game's lore, haven't followed the Wrath story-lines, and probably don't have any maxed crafters either. Yes....those are assumptions. How far off am I? lol (I'm pretty sure you'll lie about it, so it doesn't really matter, does it?)
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
my only point about the op is, you can't look at subscribers and say "theres 300k on average, in 10 games, thats 3 mil players".
Theres people coming and going into mmos every single month, it's why wow never goes down, TONS and TONS of people quit, but TONS AND TONS come back.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I give the majority of WoW players more credit than that most of WoWs core are only half of the 11.5 million the rest are Chinese gold farmers or bored kids who have stepped up from Runescape. Thier probably just as bored from World of Borecraft as everyone else, just play to bide the time. I don't think they will leave for DF though DF may be to aggrevating for them they will probably hopscotch over to Spellborn, some might stay try some other games until The Old Republic comes out and settle there.
It's funny..all the posters that want WoW to die and think , perhaps, that developers will retreat back to an 8-10 year old game model. EQ and UO are still running...go play them. Sure they've been changed and nerfed to hell...but thats as close as you're likely to get to your precious favorites....because even if WoW dies tomorrow...gamemakers will still try to mimic a game that had 11.5 million subscribers...no matter what percentage were goldfarmers.
Lol...yeah...they've been changed to be more like WoW.
WoW has damaged the MMORPG industry...but not beyond repair.
New games being released (Darkfall, Jumpgate Evolution, Earthrise, Spellborn, to name a few) ARE returning to the classic MMORPG model, and actually evolving it in positive ways.
Not every gaming company is a greedy corporate entity in seach of the biggest buck. Some developers still make games for the love of making games.
Lol...yeah...they've been changed to be more like WoW.
WoW has damaged the MMORPG industry...but not beyond repair.
New games being released (Darkfall, Jumpgate Evolution, Earthrise, Spellborn, to name a few) ARE returning to the classic MMORPG model, and actually evolving it in positive ways.
Not every gaming company is a greedy corporate entity in seach of the biggest buck. Some developers still make games for the love of making games.
I hope you're right....seems many of the new mmo's need to pass a plate around as soon as they debut...then you have the extreme like WoW which still passes out a plate...they just put whatever they want on it and millions eat it up. Sad thing is ..I like wow..play it and a few other mmos...but none of them are phenomenal. Imo. I just get tired of all the "die Wow die..and waaaagh for the old games" posts. If WoW was still as polished as it is now but only had 250,000-500,000 subs...i wonder if the haters would still be as adamant in their ire.
TBH I dont see the asian market diminishing which is the majority of wow players.
I don't know why the hell they would stay maybe they like the pretty mounts and OP classes and 12 year old weenerheads facerolling across the game. Come to think of it, thats perfect for Chinas game market. I think since most of the wow ""playerbase"" lols is made up primarily of retarded childred and raging fanatics they may have a hard time even figuring out how to play another mmorpg so, I'm gonna play it safe and say they stick to pacman after they get bored on wow.
Lol...yeah...they've been changed to be more like WoW.
WoW has damaged the MMORPG industry...but not beyond repair.
New games being released (Darkfall, Jumpgate Evolution, Earthrise, Spellborn, to name a few) ARE returning to the classic MMORPG model, and actually evolving it in positive ways.
Not every gaming company is a greedy corporate entity in seach of the biggest buck. Some developers still make games for the love of making games.
I hope you're right....seems many of the new mmo's need to pass a plate around as soon as they debut...then you have the extreme like WoW which still passes out a plate...they just put whatever they want on it and millions eat it up. Sad thing is ..I like wow..play it and a few other mmos...but none of them are phenomenal. Imo. I just get tired of all the "die Wow die..and waaaagh for the old games" posts. If WoW was still as polished as it is now but only had 250,000-500,000 subs...i wonder if the haters would still be as adamant in their ire.
Nah, because if there were only 250 - 500k wow subs, other game companies wouldn't have all tried to copy it, and we would have better games to play.
We NEED WoW to live on, as it is, to contain the cesspool that is the WoW player-base, now that game developers are FINALLY starting to understand that WoW-clones aren't going to cut it.
lets not forget battlenet
Before wow, most of the 11 million wow gamers didnt play mmorpgs. There were only 7 million tops for the entire genre so its not possible that most wow gamers are vets of mmo's. Even if the other combined MMO's all lost 1 million players (which they didnt), that stil leaves 10 million increased population to the industry. Factor in that maybe 10-20% are mmo vets who just werent subscribed to any game before wow and that =
8 to 9 million new players to MMO's playing in WoW.
So what were those 8-9 million doing before WoW ? Many were battlenet babies. And when Diablo 3 launches I bet many will return to battlenet.
If any of those 8-9 million were going to jump ship and try another MMO they would have done so by now. We would have seen a surge in population numbers in at least one MMO by now. Yet none of the other MMO's have grown much if at all. Had a game like say Vanguard gone from 50k players to 200k you could argue that wow gamers are looking for something more complex, but that didnt happen.
The MMO market will shrink back to pre-wow numbers once wow loses its appeal. The only way it doesnt happen is if another Britney Spears mass appeal MMO launches that goes mainstream / trendy appeal. I only see one MMO that might have that chance (The Old Republic) but its slim
@admriker4
Again, that 7 million figure was active subscribers at one point in time. That is not an all encompassing number of total people that have ever played mmos over a number of years before WoW. If the number was 7 million that would mean every game had a 100% retention rate.
Also that does not count many other people who have played mmos and quit, were inactive, free to play players or people who just didn't like the offerings prior to WoW. Subscribers being the key word. The number of people with mmo experience was much larger than that at the time.
Also the flawed conclusion that 11+ million people have never played anything other than WoW is silly. Just because other games cannot retain players that try their games is not proof that people are not trying them. For other games to not be able to capitalize on at least some of the churn in WoW says a lot about other games in comparison. I wish it were not true, but most other games are a step down, less content, buggy or some other major flaw. Over a million people tried AOC/War. Where do you think those people came from? Why do you think they stopped playing and the momentum of those games died out? The answer is pretty obvious.
The problem isn't the people, it is the current market.
@Pentamorph
So you say companies will not try to copy games with 200-500k users? Did you forget what game is being discussed [WoW] and what game is was modeled after [EQ].
In my last post I figured in 10-20% who werent active members of a MMO. Thats quite a lot of ex-players sitting around doing nothing till wow came around.
The other MMO's didnt really lose many players when wow launched. Some like SWG lost 50k. So the 7 million that were in MMO's to begin when WoW launched. I estimated 1 million from other MMO's anyway as a safe number.
Your right though, its still a guess. ex MMO players could number 7 million (instead of the 1-2 million I estimated). So even if it was that high, that still leaves 3.5-4ish million new to MMO's playing WoW.
i doubt though there were 7 million ex-mmo players out there at wow's launch just waiting to get back in.
Either way that still means millions of players new to MMO's playing WoW. Most of which I suspect crossed over from Battle net.
Since the majority of everyone at this forum is wow haters I find it really hard to take anything you say seriously. And the polls for voting is also hilarious.
Maybe they should make one like this just for pointing out the funny part.
I'll try to explain it again.
The charts estimate that there were around 7 million paying subscribers to mmos prior to the release or WoW. Those were active accounts at the point in time right before WoW released. Not an all inclusive number of people who have ever set foot in a virtual world. Concurrent subscriptions is a better term.
That does not include anyone in free to play games and there are tons of them.
That does not include anyone who played, but had quit mmos prior to that time.
That does not count how many people tried MMOs, but didn't find them to their liking.
I think it is safe to assume that the retention rate of mmos was no where close to 100% over 5 or so years and the number of people exposed to mmos was far far larger than 7 million.
I'm not really following your numbers especially when you said something like 9 million players must be new. Obviously there is a great deal of new players to the genre in WoW, but it looks to be going along the predicted curve of new people joining the market. www.mmogchart.com/Chart4.html
The mmo virgin of today isn't anything like the virgin of 10 years ago. Online gaming has saturated every walk of life and isn't some closet hobby only played by obscure gaming nerds.
Obviously there is a huge market for MMOs right now and we can see evidence that there is room for other large titles when AOC/War each sell over a million copies in a couple months. That kind of initial momentum suggests that there are plenty of people willing to stay in the genre if the right conditions are met. People are drawing all sorts of conclusions about what the market will be like based on the people playing the games and completely ignoring that the important aspect to retaining players is the actual game.
If all the market does is keep churning out shallow incomplete diku clones then of course people are going to go away. Warcraft isn't some unbreachable juggernaught and in fact is very vulnerable if someone puts a little effort into their release.