Which to me proofs we always been a minority no matter how I or anyone else would like to twist it, the fact remains we who enjoyed SWG where the minority. I would even say that of course 1/5 can NEVER be a company's target audience, as a company you want to get atleast 4/5 and not 1/5. Yes I know it might suck, but seriously have any of you ever looked at it this way, or shall we contineu to see it only a one-sided way?
I remember this vividly. When they released Rage of the Wookies, they also stated 1 million units had been sold. At that time subs were estimated at 250k, which was 1/4th, but still a very respectable number in MMOspace.
As for your speculation of a target market, even SOE stated the core you release to is your main subscriber base thereafter. I can say pretty confidently that the server I played on was quite healthy with the quarter you claim. Can they say the same now?
It didn't suck. It can "proofs" to you all you want it too, it still didn't suck.
What SUCKED was being the minority of players who enjoyed the game, I was among those who enjoyed the game and actually loved it as a MMORPG. That is what is proven to have sucked else we would not have gotten the NGE if we where the majority.
I played on EU Chimaera and it truly sucked that months before the CU was put in that the community was leaving, most started or already had other toons on Farstar, where at the time of the CU we all went there, but even with the CU the pop kept dropping, and the NGE was just the final drip out the bucket.
And personaly I can understand that SOE would want to target those who already left the game cause they represented a larger group of players then those of us who did enjoy the game, but please NO need to state what went wrong cause we got tons of topics already explaining that, but as a company you need to take risks and sometimes such a risk can backfire on them as what happend with the NGE.
Taking the risk is fine...its is what business does...however...the problem with SOE is that when the risk did not pay off they failed to remedy the situation by going back to what was actually working outside of WoW numbers which honestly should be left out of the equation given that are the exception in the industry.
But honestly the marketing for the NGE (did they actually do any or was it simply press releases to counteract the bad press they were getting for what they did?) failed to bring in the "target audience" and the marketing to former players didn't work because they already alienated them with their changes and disregard to those players by their own statements.
They shot both of their own bloody feet off. A complete failure in management all around. The biggest was to try to pull in WoW pop numbers but failed to do the one thing WoW did better and still does than any other and that is polish and bug free gameplay from the start.
SWG players have been a minority since launch, a minority amongst Star Wars fans, a minority amongst Star Wars gamers (BF and BF2 eclipsed SWG) and lastly, and for the games entire history, a minority amongst mmo gamers.
Well just to argue for the hell of it...SWG was the #2 mmo in the US until the NGE. Not saying alot, but anyone whos not playing WOW is a minority among MMO gamers. Any game since hold 250-300k subs for 2 years?
Whats a SW gamer? And what does eclipsed swg mean? They sold more boxes, or they have generated more profit. The people who play battlefront games are a minority in their genre as well. In fact every SW game ever made has only attracted a small minority compared to the leaders.
The new SW mmo will only attract a minority of mmo gamers, sw fans, and sw gamers( whatever that is) It'll do better than SWG obviously, but will be a minority.
You can do this with any popular mmo in the U.S. besides WOW. Any AAA mmo besides wow is a minority compared to runescape with bad graphics open pvp and looting.
Pretty sure SWG was number 3 as soon as WoW hit in the US, seeing as it's widely agreed that EQ2 has almost always been ahead of SWG in subs. SW gamer? Anyone that's every picked up and played a Star Wars game, DF, JK, KotOR and so on, all were better placed within their own genre than SWG has ever been within the mmo genre. SWG's 1.5mil units says nothing other than it's complete failure to retian subscribers, no point arguing the why's and wherefor's it's just that, it's sold a fuckload of boxes but has (and had) a small subscriber base. That's the simple facts. It's failed on every level, pre-cu, CU and NGE for differing reasons at every stage but failed... it certainly has.
Just a fun reference, the Lego Star Wars series since 2005 (being on store shelves almost 2 years less than SWG)... global sales = 18 million.
Ya, i know. I cant really argue against any of that. For an MMO, swg was a success. For a SW mmo it was a failure. Success being it made back its development cost and was operating in profit mode. Thats what any other MMO would be judged on. As far as costomer retention..seems pretty average to me. Which other mmo sold a million boxes and has more than 300k subs? Of coarse average for a SW game is a failure in most people eyes..and in the eyes of Lucasfilm especially.
Anyway, you are right. I might not a agree on the level of fail. Or could say, given the broken game they delivered, having 300k subs was an amazing success. Any other game would have been closed in a month if released in SWG condition at launch...but thats irrelevent i guess.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Ya, i know. I cant really argue against any of that. For an MMO, swg was a success. For a SW mmo it was a failure. Success being it made back its development cost and was operating in profit mode. Thats what any other MMO would be judged on. As far as costomer retention..seems pretty average to me. Which other mmo sold a million boxes and has more than 300k subs? Of coarse average for a SW game is a failure in most people eyes..and in the eyes of Lucasfilm especially. Anyway, you are right. I might not a agree on the level of fail. Or could say, given the broken game they delivered, having 300k subs was an amazing success. Any other game would have been closed in a month if released in SWG condition at launch...but thats irrelevent i guess.
Aye, I think we largely agree tbh
I think my main point is that other Star Wars games have proven that when the product is of sufficient quality, regardless of the genre, the sales reflect the fact that it's a huge IP and a quality game in it's own right, DF, JK and BF1&2 had great sales figures and were all heralded by the gaming press as some of the best examples in their particular genre. Hell, even the flight "sim" games are still, even now widely recognised as some of the best flight sims ever, X-Wing Alliance being my personal favourite but the pureists probably go with the original Tie Fighter. But yeah, anyhow... a solid product based on the Star Wars IP will flourish, no matter what the subject matter, the setting or the genre. Of course SOE's missing ingredient with SWG has always been, the solid product, it's never been even close to being able to claim that of SWG unfortunately. It's not just the changes they made either, it's just been a piss poor game in it's own right, throughout it's entire history. SOE are pretty much unique in that, I can't think of any Star Wars game that's had the negative reception that SWG and it's 3 different incarnations have had.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
But honestly the marketing for the NGE (did they actually do any or was it simply press releases to counteract the bad press they were getting for what they did?) failed to bring in the "target audience" and the marketing to former players didn't work because they already alienated them with their changes and disregard to those players by their own statements.
They actually did a television commercial right after the NGE went live. It was all footage of the pre-cu gameplay and contained jedi animations that weren't even in the NGE. The irony was...amusing.
Ah yes...I remember that now and how funny it was seeing it.
Which to me proofs we always been a minority no matter how I or anyone else would like to twist it, the fact remains we who enjoyed SWG where the minority. I would even say that of course 1/5 can NEVER be a company's target audience, as a company you want to get atleast 4/5 and not 1/5. Yes I know it might suck, but seriously have any of you ever looked at it this way, or shall we contineu to see it only a one-sided way?
I remember this vividly. When they released Rage of the Wookies, they also stated 1 million units had been sold. At that time subs were estimated at 250k, which was 1/4th, but still a very respectable number in MMOspace.
As for your speculation of a target market, even SOE stated the core you release to is your main subscriber base thereafter. I can say pretty confidently that the server I played on was quite healthy with the quarter you claim. Can they say the same now?
It didn't suck. It can "proofs" to you all you want it too, it still didn't suck.
What SUCKED was being the minority of players who enjoyed the game, I was among those who enjoyed the game and actually loved it as a MMORPG. And to be honost there isn't a MMO or MMORPG that came after that I enjoyed as much as SWG pre-cu. That is what is proven to have sucked else we would not have gotten the NGE if we where the majority.
I played on EU Chimaera and it truly sucked that months before the CU was put in that the community was leaving, most started or already had other toons on Farstar, where at the time of the CU we all went there, but even with the CU the pop kept dropping, and the NGE was just the final drip out the bucket.
And personaly I can understand that SOE would want to target those who already left the game cause they represented a larger group of players then those of us who did enjoy the game, but please NO need to state what went wrong cause we got tons of topics already explaining that, but as a company you need to take risks and sometimes such a risk can backfire on them as what happend with the NGE.
The NGE wasn't taking a risk -- it was a guaranteed, predictable failure. There is no way anyone who knows anything about business would have done it.
No, this was a blunder done by people too inexperienced and too immature in business to make wise decisions.
Which to me proofs we always been a minority no matter how I or anyone else would like to twist it, the fact remains we who enjoyed SWG where the minority. I would even say that of course 1/5 can NEVER be a company's target audience, as a company you want to get atleast 4/5 and not 1/5. Yes I know it might suck, but seriously have any of you ever looked at it this way, or shall we contineu to see it only a one-sided way?
I remember this vividly. When they released Rage of the Wookies, they also stated 1 million units had been sold. At that time subs were estimated at 250k, which was 1/4th, but still a very respectable number in MMOspace.
As for your speculation of a target market, even SOE stated the core you release to is your main subscriber base thereafter. I can say pretty confidently that the server I played on was quite healthy with the quarter you claim. Can they say the same now?
It didn't suck. It can "proofs" to you all you want it too, it still didn't suck.
What SUCKED was being the minority of players who enjoyed the game, I was among those who enjoyed the game and actually loved it as a MMORPG. And to be honost there isn't a MMO or MMORPG that came after that I enjoyed as much as SWG pre-cu. That is what is proven to have sucked else we would not have gotten the NGE if we where the majority.
I played on EU Chimaera and it truly sucked that months before the CU was put in that the community was leaving, most started or already had other toons on Farstar, where at the time of the CU we all went there, but even with the CU the pop kept dropping, and the NGE was just the final drip out the bucket.
And personaly I can understand that SOE would want to target those who already left the game cause they represented a larger group of players then those of us who did enjoy the game, but please NO need to state what went wrong cause we got tons of topics already explaining that, but as a company you need to take risks and sometimes such a risk can backfire on them as what happend with the NGE.
The NGE wasn't taking a risk -- it was a guaranteed, predictable failure. There is no way anyone who knows anything about business would have done it.
No, this was a blunder done by people too inexperienced and too immature in business to make wise decisions.
I am not saying I don't agree with you, but keep in mind even inexperienced and immature people into business will take certain risks, there risk was that they THOUGHT they could replace us with new people easy, yes it seems proven they where wrong, but in my opinion still a risk, regardless what type of risk it remains a risk. And in business some inexperience or immature people can grow into being experienced and mature or mature along the way. Not talking about SOE cause not sooner until they have released their OWN new in development MMO's I can not able to make full judgment and see if they really learned.
And what actually started me with this topic was that it just kinda sucks being part of a minority in a game genre that can be so much more that what we see is delivered these day's, most current games in development do appeal to me but they appeal to me in like just a multiplayer game I hop into, some will appeal to my RPG side, but none I see in development seems to appeal to my MMORPG needs. When I look at those games that do have those appealing feature's I love in MMORPG, other things will be not appealing for example the visual looks.
These day's not even sure what a MMORPG is, us to think I knew, but these day's what I see as being multiplayer online quest games are now MMORPG's, to me MMORPG are in a way similar to Single player RPG's, the only difference I thought it had was that it had A: A Community and B: the things NPC's did in Single player games are the thing in MMORPG you could play/act yourself, NPC where only needed if you wanted to get involved with the game lore, the community was where it all happened, player run events, GM run events, what happened to all of this?, when did a genre that stood out above other genre's by it's depth mainly created by it's players become just regular games?
Comments
I remember this vividly. When they released Rage of the Wookies, they also stated 1 million units had been sold. At that time subs were estimated at 250k, which was 1/4th, but still a very respectable number in MMOspace.
As for your speculation of a target market, even SOE stated the core you release to is your main subscriber base thereafter. I can say pretty confidently that the server I played on was quite healthy with the quarter you claim. Can they say the same now?
It didn't suck. It can "proofs" to you all you want it too, it still didn't suck.
What SUCKED was being the minority of players who enjoyed the game, I was among those who enjoyed the game and actually loved it as a MMORPG. That is what is proven to have sucked else we would not have gotten the NGE if we where the majority.
I played on EU Chimaera and it truly sucked that months before the CU was put in that the community was leaving, most started or already had other toons on Farstar, where at the time of the CU we all went there, but even with the CU the pop kept dropping, and the NGE was just the final drip out the bucket.
And personaly I can understand that SOE would want to target those who already left the game cause they represented a larger group of players then those of us who did enjoy the game, but please NO need to state what went wrong cause we got tons of topics already explaining that, but as a company you need to take risks and sometimes such a risk can backfire on them as what happend with the NGE.
Taking the risk is fine...its is what business does...however...the problem with SOE is that when the risk did not pay off they failed to remedy the situation by going back to what was actually working outside of WoW numbers which honestly should be left out of the equation given that are the exception in the industry.
But honestly the marketing for the NGE (did they actually do any or was it simply press releases to counteract the bad press they were getting for what they did?) failed to bring in the "target audience" and the marketing to former players didn't work because they already alienated them with their changes and disregard to those players by their own statements.
They shot both of their own bloody feet off. A complete failure in management all around. The biggest was to try to pull in WoW pop numbers but failed to do the one thing WoW did better and still does than any other and that is polish and bug free gameplay from the start.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Well just to argue for the hell of it...SWG was the #2 mmo in the US until the NGE. Not saying alot, but anyone whos not playing WOW is a minority among MMO gamers. Any game since hold 250-300k subs for 2 years?
Whats a SW gamer? And what does eclipsed swg mean? They sold more boxes, or they have generated more profit. The people who play battlefront games are a minority in their genre as well. In fact every SW game ever made has only attracted a small minority compared to the leaders.
The new SW mmo will only attract a minority of mmo gamers, sw fans, and sw gamers( whatever that is) It'll do better than SWG obviously, but will be a minority.
You can do this with any popular mmo in the U.S. besides WOW. Any AAA mmo besides wow is a minority compared to runescape with bad graphics open pvp and looting.
Pretty sure SWG was number 3 as soon as WoW hit in the US, seeing as it's widely agreed that EQ2 has almost always been ahead of SWG in subs. SW gamer? Anyone that's every picked up and played a Star Wars game, DF, JK, KotOR and so on, all were better placed within their own genre than SWG has ever been within the mmo genre. SWG's 1.5mil units says nothing other than it's complete failure to retian subscribers, no point arguing the why's and wherefor's it's just that, it's sold a fuckload of boxes but has (and had) a small subscriber base. That's the simple facts. It's failed on every level, pre-cu, CU and NGE for differing reasons at every stage but failed... it certainly has.
Just a fun reference, the Lego Star Wars series since 2005 (being on store shelves almost 2 years less than SWG)... global sales = 18 million.
Ya, i know. I cant really argue against any of that. For an MMO, swg was a success. For a SW mmo it was a failure. Success being it made back its development cost and was operating in profit mode. Thats what any other MMO would be judged on. As far as costomer retention..seems pretty average to me. Which other mmo sold a million boxes and has more than 300k subs? Of coarse average for a SW game is a failure in most people eyes..and in the eyes of Lucasfilm especially.
Anyway, you are right. I might not a agree on the level of fail. Or could say, given the broken game they delivered, having 300k subs was an amazing success. Any other game would have been closed in a month if released in SWG condition at launch...but thats irrelevent i guess.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Aye, I think we largely agree tbh
I think my main point is that other Star Wars games have proven that when the product is of sufficient quality, regardless of the genre, the sales reflect the fact that it's a huge IP and a quality game in it's own right, DF, JK and BF1&2 had great sales figures and were all heralded by the gaming press as some of the best examples in their particular genre. Hell, even the flight "sim" games are still, even now widely recognised as some of the best flight sims ever, X-Wing Alliance being my personal favourite but the pureists probably go with the original Tie Fighter. But yeah, anyhow... a solid product based on the Star Wars IP will flourish, no matter what the subject matter, the setting or the genre. Of course SOE's missing ingredient with SWG has always been, the solid product, it's never been even close to being able to claim that of SWG unfortunately. It's not just the changes they made either, it's just been a piss poor game in it's own right, throughout it's entire history. SOE are pretty much unique in that, I can't think of any Star Wars game that's had the negative reception that SWG and it's 3 different incarnations have had.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
They actually did a television commercial right after the NGE went live. It was all footage of the pre-cu gameplay and contained jedi animations that weren't even in the NGE. The irony was...amusing.
Ah yes...I remember that now and how funny it was seeing it.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
I remember this vividly. When they released Rage of the Wookies, they also stated 1 million units had been sold. At that time subs were estimated at 250k, which was 1/4th, but still a very respectable number in MMOspace.
As for your speculation of a target market, even SOE stated the core you release to is your main subscriber base thereafter. I can say pretty confidently that the server I played on was quite healthy with the quarter you claim. Can they say the same now?
It didn't suck. It can "proofs" to you all you want it too, it still didn't suck.
What SUCKED was being the minority of players who enjoyed the game, I was among those who enjoyed the game and actually loved it as a MMORPG. And to be honost there isn't a MMO or MMORPG that came after that I enjoyed as much as SWG pre-cu. That is what is proven to have sucked else we would not have gotten the NGE if we where the majority.
I played on EU Chimaera and it truly sucked that months before the CU was put in that the community was leaving, most started or already had other toons on Farstar, where at the time of the CU we all went there, but even with the CU the pop kept dropping, and the NGE was just the final drip out the bucket.
And personaly I can understand that SOE would want to target those who already left the game cause they represented a larger group of players then those of us who did enjoy the game, but please NO need to state what went wrong cause we got tons of topics already explaining that, but as a company you need to take risks and sometimes such a risk can backfire on them as what happend with the NGE.
The NGE wasn't taking a risk -- it was a guaranteed, predictable failure. There is no way anyone who knows anything about business would have done it.
No, this was a blunder done by people too inexperienced and too immature in business to make wise decisions.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I remember this vividly. When they released Rage of the Wookies, they also stated 1 million units had been sold. At that time subs were estimated at 250k, which was 1/4th, but still a very respectable number in MMOspace.
As for your speculation of a target market, even SOE stated the core you release to is your main subscriber base thereafter. I can say pretty confidently that the server I played on was quite healthy with the quarter you claim. Can they say the same now?
It didn't suck. It can "proofs" to you all you want it too, it still didn't suck.
What SUCKED was being the minority of players who enjoyed the game, I was among those who enjoyed the game and actually loved it as a MMORPG. And to be honost there isn't a MMO or MMORPG that came after that I enjoyed as much as SWG pre-cu. That is what is proven to have sucked else we would not have gotten the NGE if we where the majority.
I played on EU Chimaera and it truly sucked that months before the CU was put in that the community was leaving, most started or already had other toons on Farstar, where at the time of the CU we all went there, but even with the CU the pop kept dropping, and the NGE was just the final drip out the bucket.
And personaly I can understand that SOE would want to target those who already left the game cause they represented a larger group of players then those of us who did enjoy the game, but please NO need to state what went wrong cause we got tons of topics already explaining that, but as a company you need to take risks and sometimes such a risk can backfire on them as what happend with the NGE.
The NGE wasn't taking a risk -- it was a guaranteed, predictable failure. There is no way anyone who knows anything about business would have done it.
No, this was a blunder done by people too inexperienced and too immature in business to make wise decisions.
I am not saying I don't agree with you, but keep in mind even inexperienced and immature people into business will take certain risks, there risk was that they THOUGHT they could replace us with new people easy, yes it seems proven they where wrong, but in my opinion still a risk, regardless what type of risk it remains a risk. And in business some inexperience or immature people can grow into being experienced and mature or mature along the way. Not talking about SOE cause not sooner until they have released their OWN new in development MMO's I can not able to make full judgment and see if they really learned.
And what actually started me with this topic was that it just kinda sucks being part of a minority in a game genre that can be so much more that what we see is delivered these day's, most current games in development do appeal to me but they appeal to me in like just a multiplayer game I hop into, some will appeal to my RPG side, but none I see in development seems to appeal to my MMORPG needs. When I look at those games that do have those appealing feature's I love in MMORPG, other things will be not appealing for example the visual looks.
These day's not even sure what a MMORPG is, us to think I knew, but these day's what I see as being multiplayer online quest games are now MMORPG's, to me MMORPG are in a way similar to Single player RPG's, the only difference I thought it had was that it had A: A Community and B: the things NPC's did in Single player games are the thing in MMORPG you could play/act yourself, NPC where only needed if you wanted to get involved with the game lore, the community was where it all happened, player run events, GM run events, what happened to all of this?, when did a genre that stood out above other genre's by it's depth mainly created by it's players become just regular games?