Disclaimer: this thread is for philiosophical discussion as well as the occasional humor. No offense is intended or should be taken.
God - "Let us make man in our own image."
Who the hell was he talking to and why was he even discussing it? Does God really need permission?
Talking to the Godhead.. Father, Son, Holy Ghost.. and no - who said anything about permission?
God - "Turn the other cheek."
God - "Vengeance is mine"
God - "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
So which is it? Do I let them beat the crap out of me, or do I beat them back?
Big topics, but the basic answer is the first and last are commands for humans to follow, while the middle is God's job. "Eye for an eye" rule was put into place to hinder excess violence. In other words, if I were to push you, you'd push me back AND punch me. If I punched you, you'd throw me to the ground AND beat me up. Each command has a 'why' behind the what.
Jesus (YHWH) commanded us to 'lose our lives to find it', so turning the other cheek is in order.
God is the Judge. I see no contridiction with this claim.
OT reality. Big subject but no contridiction.
If we were made in Gods image, why are we forbidden to look upon God?
Who said we were forbidden? Also, why does being made in the image of God have ANYTHING to do with beholding Him?
When Moses was on that ark for 40 days and 40 nights, why didn't he swat those two damned mosquitos?
You meant Noah..
Discuss.
Also, why include philosophy in a Biblical discussion? All philosophy does is confuse people (when applying it to Scripture).
Disclaimer: this thread is for philiosophical discussion as well as the occasional humor. No offense is intended or should be taken.
God - "Let us make man in our own image." Who the hell was he talking to and why was he even discussing it? Does God really need permission? Talking to the Godhead.. Father, Son, Holy Ghost.. and no - who said anything about permission? God - "Turn the other cheek." God - "Vengeance is mine" God - "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." So which is it? Do I let them beat the crap out of me, or do I beat them back?
Big topics, but the basic answer is the first and last are commands for humans to follow, while the middle is God's job. "Eye for an eye" rule was put into place to hinder excess violence. In other words, if I were to push you, you'd push me back AND punch me. If I punched you, you'd throw me to the ground AND beat me up. Each command has a 'why' behind the what.
Jesus (YHWH) commanded us to 'lose our lives to find it', so turning the other cheek is in order. God is the Judge. I see no contridiction with this claim. OT reality. Big subject but no contridiction.
If we were made in Gods image, why are we forbidden to look upon God? Who said we were forbidden? Also, why does being made in the image of God have ANYTHING to do with beholding Him? When Moses was on that ark for 40 days and 40 nights, why didn't he swat those two damned mosquitos? You meant Noah.. Discuss.
Also, why include philosophy in a Biblical discussion? All philosophy does is confuse people (when applying it to Scripture).
What about logic and common sense, can those be applied?
Disclaimer: this thread is for philiosophical discussion as well as the occasional humor. No offense is intended or should be taken.
God - "Let us make man in our own image." Who the hell was he talking to and why was he even discussing it? Does God really need permission?
God - "Turn the other cheek." God - "Vengeance is mine" God - "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." So which is it? Do I let them beat the crap out of me, or do I beat them back?
If we were made in Gods image, why are we forbidden to look upon God?
When Moses was on that ark for 40 days and 40 nights, why didn't he swat those two damned mosquitos?
Discuss.
First one about the "we". In ancient hebrew, there was Eloha(god, singular), elohim(god, plural), and YHVH Eloha, or YHVH Elohim. Which is the almighty jewish/Christian God. You see, it's like how we're all humans, how we were created a certain way, with certain strengths and weaknesses, and how we're all identified by our names. Individuality. It's very similar to the Elohim, there is not just one. So in answer to the question, the Elohim were talking amongst themselves about creating beings like themselves.
As for the contradiction. Much of the new testament has been tampered with. With even the majority of the gospels being highly manipulated. A very old carried on tradition of carrying on stories and writings by Judaic tradition was having two or more sources. It allowed a sense of validity. If you compare the New Testament with the old testament, and it seems completely contradictory, most likely it isn't valid.
And we aren't forbidden to look upon God. But man in his physical form cannot handle looking upon the image of God without perishing.
Oh, and I have a better question. Why didn't he kill the few roaches?
I HATE ROACHES!
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
If Lucifer was Gods' right-hand man, and was the most glorious of the Angels, he must have been really something. So him and God have a little tiff and God casts him down.
Now from my understanding, Lucifer has everything at his disposal as God does.
Yet the Bible clearly states how and why and when Lucifer will lose the battle.
My question is: If Lucifer is such a threat to God and humanity, are you telling me he CAN'T READ?
@ dlooney: Good question. guess God can't write.
So God can't write and Lucifer can't read. No wonder public education sucks.
He wasn't God's right hand man. Just the most glorified of all angels.
Anyhow, Lucifer is powerful, yes. But YHVH Elohim is all powerful.
Also, Lucifer knows his end is nigh. It even states in the book of revelation that after his first millenia of imprisonement, he will be released to wreak havoc for a short time before all is finally reconciled.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Why if revalations is true is God waiting? Are you telling me he is a procastanator? And if it requires the anti-Christ to do some stuff first....WTF is he waiting for?! Seriously...we humans have all ready proven we're evil creatures. So why are these two waiting?
(Eccl 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
I went to Catholic School from K-12. To begin, I'm an agnostic.
That being said, most of you need to stop throwing around derogatory accusations. We are humans, we don't know what the hell is going on. Leave it up to God, or a lack thereof. When I die, I would hope that my creator would respect the fact that I questioned my beliefs, being that he is omniscient and all.
Why does god need to hire people to do his bidding like Moses? Why doesn't he get off his lazy arse and free his own people. If he was realyy concerned with the plite of the Jews in Egypt he should have just made the Egyptians go away and give egypt to the Jews.
Maybe God is a MMORPG developer, and just sits around with an exclamation mark over his head waiting for people to run up and get a quest.
Wonder what level he is, and where he got his gear?
Why does god need to hire people to do his bidding like Moses? Why doesn't he get off his lazy arse and free his own people. If he was realyy concerned with the plite of the Jews in Egypt he should have just made the Egyptians go away and give egypt to the Jews.
Maybe God is a MMORPG developer, and just sits around with an exclamation mark over his head waiting for people to run up and get a quest.
Wonder what level he is, and where he got his gear?
'??? Elite' no doubt. He's in a raiding guild with Allah, Buddah, the pantheon of Greek gods... you get the idea, full raid progression.
Disclaimer: this thread is for philiosophical discussion as well as the occasional humor. No offense is intended or should be taken.
God - "Let us make man in our own image." Who the hell was he talking to and why was he even discussing it? Does God really need permission?
God - "Turn the other cheek." God - "Vengeance is mine" God - "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." So which is it? Do I let them beat the crap out of me, or do I beat them back?
If we were made in Gods image, why are we forbidden to look upon God?
When Moses was on that ark for 40 days and 40 nights, why didn't he swat those two damned mosquitos?
Discuss.
Probably because he is but ugly.
I ever tell you how much I love your sig, man?
May I please be allowed to do something with your sig though, Hyperion? I'm not trying to insult you, just point out a few things.
Here's your sig...
""Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Makes perfect sense.""
Now (and I can't believe I'm doing this, because I actually have my own questions about "religion" in general). But I can see a few things on your sig that could be explained. Especially with some of today's discoveries and theories.
First off, telepathy. I'm not sure if telepathy is such a far fetched notion. Have you read some of the things that string theory and the likes have brought up? It has some really far out implications about "reality" and even our consciousness and whatever level that is on. Even professor Michio Kaku has admitted that there are some really wild things that are possible with the idea of hyperspace. It's a thing to check into.
Talking snakes? Maybe not literally, but perhaps in an altered state of mind. And what is an altered state of mind? It's reality for the person experiencing it. And people have long gone into these altered states and brought back knowledge that just plain worked in our world. It's happened time and time again. I think there is a symbolism perhaps that could be playing out here. It's another thing that can be served by the theories of higher dimensions. Perhaps with out meager minds, seeing a higher dimension might persent itself in such a way.
And the evil vs good thing, I know that's real. There is real evil in the world. There are conflicts that exist in mankind. I know those conflicts change throughout history (and I think that is a good thing actually) because I think that we are progressing as a species in our morality and expectations of ourselves as civilized people. It's a "birthing" type process to instigate a new morality (even when it's one of more promise) into a society and it's ugly sometimes. There is going to be backlash that can be intepreted as chaos by some, but I think that we have to go through it. The civil rights movement of the 60's is a good example. Many thought our nation was falling apart during that time, but it was those who just wanted to not face that the change was inevitable because of our march of progress.
I do however get one thing about religion and one of its downfalls. It is a rigid monster at times. Christianity is not immune. Look at how some people have been treated throughout history simply for trying to point out mistreatment or abuse agains them or other groups. The Bible was written in an ancient time. I don't think it's always smart to try to apply ancient morality to a modern world. And this is important; I also don't think it would be smart to apply our modern morality onto that ancient world. They did what they could to keep order and peace and promote survival for their time. Our time is different however. We have new philosophies, interations, and even new things like enlightenment in medicine, psychology, and science in general.
We're in an era that has a responsibility to question those old rules and change them where needed. Is it always a change that turns out good? Nope, but it's one that needs to be meated out and tried nevertheless so that we can pick the good and forgo what didn't work. And something not working is okay, it's a trial and error at best.
So, those ancient texts may sound silly to us today, but then again if you apply some reason discoveries maybe they're not so outlandish. Maybe we will be able to explain those hallucinations and other things with science soon.
Also, just as I'm quick to point out the second look that is needed to make those verses not sound so silly in the Bible, I'm also quick to point out the discoveries we have that need to be applied to the Bible so that we can leave some of those ancient morals behind and find what fits us better. A good example is the gay movement. Modern science, sociology, and psychology is screaming at us that it's okay to let gays be who they want to be and live with us in harmony and acceptance. Yet, some don't want to let go and just believe in our modern world and the positives that can come out of it. That and other civil rights movements are something that needs a second look Biblically. And I think overall, it is occurring. Sometimes I just don't see things happening fast enough. I want to see the world change even more in my lifetime. I want people to learn to love and accept without fear of an ancient text saying they are monsters.
Why does god need to hire people to do his bidding like Moses? Why doesn't he get off his lazy arse and free his own people. If he was realyy concerned with the plite of the Jews in Egypt he should have just made the Egyptians go away and give egypt to the Jews.
I dunno, why do parents allow their kids to go through bad things and make the mistakes on their own? Maybe because the lesson sticks after that.
We live in a time of people feeling like everything is entitled to them. Knowledge is not an entitlement, it is something you live through and earn.
And by working through Moses he was able to teach humans a lesson (the philosophical hurdle was leaped) as well as get the physical job done.
If you go to a student and give them all the answers on a worksheet, are they going to be ready for the test that comes later? Or if you let them discover the answers on their own will they have a better chance at success later?
If Lucifer was Gods' right-hand man, and was the most glorious of the Angels, he must have been really something. So him and God have a little tiff and God casts him down.
Now from my understanding, Lucifer has everything at his disposal as God does.
Yet the Bible clearly states how and why and when Lucifer will lose the battle.
My question is: If Lucifer is such a threat to God and humanity, are you telling me he CAN'T READ?
@ dlooney: Good question. guess God can't write.
So God can't write and Lucifer can't read. No wonder public education sucks.
Perhaps, if God loves all the same, the defeat of Lucifer is his conversion back to God's ways. Perhaps God is letting Lucifer learn his wrong so that he can someday come back to his side. That may be the "defeat" of Lucifer that we hear about.
You want to know something...don't take life to seriously....same goes for the bible. Angels and what not are very real...but the rest of the BS...trust me, you are going to be in for a big dissappointment. LOL!
Yes, common sense may be applied too. Logic? Sure, but faith needs to be the prevailng mental perspective.
Faith in what? The Bible?
Okay, I have faith that the Bible is an ancient manuscript that has some wisdom in it but that needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. Especially by people who try to place it on today's society through literal readings.
It's like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It ain't going to work. And that's why so many people are running away from Christianity and other rigid ancient religions. Because they can see the outdated tattering that goes along with taking it literally.
You want your religion to survive, then start to read it for what it really is and pull it into the modern era. Otherwise, you're going to keep creating more and more examples of things like the Galileo story that play themselves out for future generations to hear. And you're also going to see more an more people beginning to leave and move on to more liberal minded organizations and faiths.
The Catholic Church has many scientists in its ranks who speak out against literal readings of the Bible. That's a good start for them. Unfortunately, for the most part they are kept hidden and quiet as much as possible, even canned if they get too "noisy".
Yes, common sense may be applied too. Logic? Sure, but faith needs to be the prevailng mental perspective.
Why?
With faith, answers are guessed; with observation, logic, deductive and inductive reasoning, answers are found.
To move "faith" into science terms, I think I would have to put it on the same level as hypothesis. To put it on the same level as theory would be stretching it. I mean, it's not like the idea of religious faith has even been able to be tested. I think there is more proof of aliens than of Noah and the boat, Jonah and the whale, or even those giants.
faith needs to be the prevailng mental perspective.
Welcome to the Dark Ages
Nah, just after things like the Crusades and recent Jihadist bullshit, where "faith" was the prevailing mental perspective, I'd prefer some solid tangible facts over "faith" any day.
That is not what I was specifically referring to, but yes, ultimately yes. I was referring to faith being the prevailing perspective instead of philosophy and logic.
Okay, I have faith that the Bible is an ancient manuscript that has some wisdom in it but that needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. Especially by people who try to place it on today's society through literal readings.
I don't see a problem with proclaiming the Bible's message (both OT and NT) in today's society. Jesus IS COMING BACK to establish His kingdom on the Earth through a violent and dynamic overtaking of the Earth's empires and kingdoms/infrastructors. Politically incorrect? Absolutely. The same message that the Bible has been communicating since it has been scribed? Absolutely.
It's like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It ain't going to work. And that's why so many people are running away from Christianity and other rigid ancient religions. Because they can see the outdated tattering that goes along with taking it literally.
I don't see the problem with taking it literally. How else are you to take it, in regards to how the authors intended their message to be taken? Obviously, the response is to symbolize it, or to disregard it all together, or to 'take everything with a grain of salt', but in the perspective of the authors, when they made it otherwise clear to take what was spoken to be taken symbolically, it is to be taken literally. Hello hermeneutics.Sorry for the long sentence.
You want your religion to survive, then start to read it for what it really is and pull it into the modern era.
Thanks for the open platform - do you know what the Bible really says? It is what I said before - JESUS, who is a KING.. no, wait, THE KING is COMING to literally REIGN on the literal Earth. That is reading and preaching what it 'really is' and pulling it into our 'modern era'. This is serious stuff. Yeah, I'll be mocked and scoffed - thats okay. BUT --- that is really what the Bible says.
Otherwise, you're going to keep creating more and more examples of things like the Galileo story that play themselves out for future generations to hear. And you're also going to see more an more people beginning to leave and move on to more liberal minded organizations and faiths.
Well, granted, if what is in the Bible is true (everything), then God will show up when the message is preached, so that means people in wheelchairs will come out and people with missing limbs will bush their teeth that night. If that is the case (which has been EVEN in the US only 40 years ago), then I'm sure people will not leave, but flock to the meeting in which Jesus is walking through their midst.
Faith in what? The Bible? That is not what I was specifically referring to, but yes, ultimately yes. I was referring to faith being the prevailing perspective instead of philosophy and logic. Okay, I have faith that the Bible is an ancient manuscript that has some wisdom in it but that needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. Especially by people who try to place it on today's society through literal readings.
I don't see a problem with proclaiming the Bible's message (both OT and NT) in today's society. Jesus IS COMING BACK to establish His kingdom on the Earth through a violent and dynamic overtaking of the Earth's empires and kingdoms/infrastructors. Politically incorrect? Absolutely. The same message that the Bible has been communicating since it has been scribed? Absolutely.
It's like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It ain't going to work. And that's why so many people are running away from Christianity and other rigid ancient religions. Because they can see the outdated tattering that goes along with taking it literally. I don't see the problem with taking it literally. How else are you to take it, in regards to how the authors intended their message to be taken? Obviously, the response is to symbolize it, or to disregard it all together, or to 'take everything with a grain of salt', but in the perspective of the authors, when they made it otherwise clear to take what was spoken to be taken symbolically, it is to be taken literally. Hello hermeneutics.Sorry for the long sentence. You want your religion to survive, then start to read it for what it really is and pull it into the modern era. Thanks for the open platform - do you know what the Bible really says? It is what I said before - JESUS, who is a KING.. no, wait, THE KING is COMING to literally REIGN on the literal Earth. That is reading and preaching what it 'really is' and pulling it into our 'modern era'. This is serious stuff. Yeah, I'll be mocked and scoffed - thats okay. BUT --- that is really what the Bible says. Otherwise, you're going to keep creating more and more examples of things like the Galileo story that play themselves out for future generations to hear. And you're also going to see more an more people beginning to leave and move on to more liberal minded organizations and faiths. Well, granted, if what is in the Bible is true (everything), then God will show up when the message is preached, so that means people in wheelchairs will come out and people with missing limbs will bush their teeth that night. If that is the case (which has been EVEN in the US only 40 years ago), then I'm sure people will not leave, but flock to the meeting in which Jesus is walking through their midst.
You would make a great Darkfall Fanboi. seriously.
oops, i opened this thread to see a discussion, not random hate towards christianity. I think i'll use this thread to show people that age =/= maturity. I really didnt expect to see so many older members in a thread like this.
Hey, this thread is the least hateful of all christianity threads i've ever read on this forum, for the most part we are being respectful. No one has flamed christianity nor those who believe in it. And no, age does not mean maturity, and this is not a good example of that. You are getting offended at peoples views, not personal nor communal attacks.
i dont mind people posting their views on a subject, as long as they are respectful to other people in their "views"
Sometimes peoples views are interpreted as "disrespectful", when if said in any other way would no longer be that person's views. People need to not be as sensitive to how someone feels on a subject. Many middle eastern people hate america, and the people that it houses. Should you or I feel offended that someone hates us for our views on freedom? No. Exactly the same in this case
i agree i was a bit too sensative about this, but i dont see much sense in people asking religous questions on a gaming forum, i believe if somebody really wants to know about a religion they should call up a pastor or go to church one day and ask their questions there. Or even search them in yahoo or google. Religious discussions on this forum are notorious for ending up being flame fests. Which is still possible, and will probably happen.
This thread is basically to ask, respond, ponder. You must admit, when taken at face value, there are so many discrepancies, contradictions, and even just ridiculous notions in the Bible.
For another thing, even if I were to insult the Bilble outright, I hav that right since, as i believe is stated in that same Bible, God gave me free will.
I have no animosity toward any particular faith, although i have much animosity toward certain sects who use that faith to justify the persecution, and even execution, of others who do not believe the same.
Lastly, the Bible is not "God". Unless you have a copy written in Gods' own handwriting, the bible is a book written by men and "claimed" to be the word of God. So believing fully that some spectral being spoke to a man through a burning bush and told him "write this down", when being admitedly more of the "scientifically inclined" as I am, is a bit of a stretch for me.
I make no claims that there is indeed no God or higher power. I only go with what I can see,hear, and touch.
So please, have an open mind to the random ponderings and musings of the many gathered here. Perhaps in even our jesting, there can be purpose.
If you read the Bible like a Fundamentalist (who are a minority of Christians), and assume that fundamentalists are correct in their interpretation of the Bible, if you take parts written by different people, for different reasons, in different centuries and juxtapose them -- in short, if practice willful misrepresentation of the Bible and what it means to discuss the Bible -- then, yes, it's easy to ridicule.
If one went into your average library, grabbed a collection of poems, a biography, a set of short stories, an ancient history, and a play -- then acted as if it was all one stream of writing, and then judged the poem as you would the biography, the collection of short stories the same way as you did the history -- in short, if you misrepresented everything in that library collection -- you would find it equally easy to ridicule.
heck, I have to correct myself -- even few fundamentalists are that irresponsible with their source material.
If, however, you assume the approach of a honest seeker, you will find much there that is wise, much there that still has relevance today, and much that makes sense -- certainly more sense than most documents from the ancient world.
There are much better ways to open up a discussion of the interesting things found in the Bible.
For every segment of the Bible (or any source material), a few simple questions ought to be asked:
Who is writing this?
When was it written?
To whom was it written?
Why was it written?
Then, in all those contexts, one then proceeds to look at the text and attempt to interpret it.
That's just the beginning of what might be a fruitful discussion of these topics.
faith needs to be the prevailng mental perspective.
Welcome to the Dark Ages
Nah, just after things like the Crusades and recent Jihadist bullshit, where "faith" was the prevailing mental perspective, I'd prefer some solid tangible facts over "faith" any day.
Unfortunately, with the many more millions murdered by secularists than religionists any day (Put up Mao against ANY Crusader or Jihadist, and Mao has them all beat hands down -- as does Stalin). That is the result of men without faith ruling.
Religion is no picnic, to be sure, but athiesm appears to be far, far worse.
Richard Dawkins, i believe, sums up God/religion quite well:
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. - Richard Dawkins
The Bible itself proves this time and time again...this God who sent Moses into the mountains to receive the Ten Commandants is himself guilty of breaking most of them...and yet people flock into church every Sunday to give 'praise' to God and his son for all the 'blessing' that have been bestowed upon them....
What has 'theology' ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has 'theology' ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? What makes you think that 'theology' is a subject at all? - Richard Dawkins
I've yet to find anything biblical that has been of any use whatsoever to life, beyond the blatantly obvious of 'be good to each other'
And lastly...
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. - Richard Dawkins
Truth...and you'll hear it even in this day and age, storms are "God's wrath", the universe, earth and everything upon it is "God's Creation" Reason?...well because it's the simplest answer isn't it?...why try to break everything down logically when we can say a immortal, invisible, all-knowing/seeing man in the sky did it.
There is -zero- evidence to prove Heaven, Hell, God, The Holy Spirit or indeed anything that is the basic foundation of Religon -zero evidence- and yet people still flock to it....personally i think religon is the biggest and most popular scam ever devised by man.
Comments
Also, why include philosophy in a Biblical discussion? All philosophy does is confuse people (when applying it to Scripture).
MMO migrant.
Also, why include philosophy in a Biblical discussion? All philosophy does is confuse people (when applying it to Scripture).
What about logic and common sense, can those be applied?
Logic...why allow logic when science itself is not even allowed. Hmmm...maybe that is why I subscribe to...Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
First one about the "we". In ancient hebrew, there was Eloha(god, singular), elohim(god, plural), and YHVH Eloha, or YHVH Elohim. Which is the almighty jewish/Christian God. You see, it's like how we're all humans, how we were created a certain way, with certain strengths and weaknesses, and how we're all identified by our names. Individuality. It's very similar to the Elohim, there is not just one. So in answer to the question, the Elohim were talking amongst themselves about creating beings like themselves.
As for the contradiction. Much of the new testament has been tampered with. With even the majority of the gospels being highly manipulated. A very old carried on tradition of carrying on stories and writings by Judaic tradition was having two or more sources. It allowed a sense of validity. If you compare the New Testament with the old testament, and it seems completely contradictory, most likely it isn't valid.
And we aren't forbidden to look upon God. But man in his physical form cannot handle looking upon the image of God without perishing.
Oh, and I have a better question. Why didn't he kill the few roaches?
I HATE ROACHES!
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
He wasn't God's right hand man. Just the most glorified of all angels.
Anyhow, Lucifer is powerful, yes. But YHVH Elohim is all powerful.
Also, Lucifer knows his end is nigh. It even states in the book of revelation that after his first millenia of imprisonement, he will be released to wreak havoc for a short time before all is finally reconciled.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
(Eccl 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
lol...yea whatever....
I went to Catholic School from K-12. To begin, I'm an agnostic.
That being said, most of you need to stop throwing around derogatory accusations. We are humans, we don't know what the hell is going on. Leave it up to God, or a lack thereof. When I die, I would hope that my creator would respect the fact that I questioned my beliefs, being that he is omniscient and all.
Paschal's Wager disgusts me.
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Maybe God is a MMORPG developer, and just sits around with an exclamation mark over his head waiting for people to run up and get a quest.
Wonder what level he is, and where he got his gear?
Maybe God is a MMORPG developer, and just sits around with an exclamation mark over his head waiting for people to run up and get a quest.
Wonder what level he is, and where he got his gear?
'??? Elite' no doubt. He's in a raiding guild with Allah, Buddah, the pantheon of Greek gods... you get the idea, full raid progression.
O_o o_O
Probably because he is but ugly.
I ever tell you how much I love your sig, man?
May I please be allowed to do something with your sig though, Hyperion? I'm not trying to insult you, just point out a few things.
Here's your sig...
""Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Makes perfect sense.""
Now (and I can't believe I'm doing this, because I actually have my own questions about "religion" in general). But I can see a few things on your sig that could be explained. Especially with some of today's discoveries and theories.
First off, telepathy. I'm not sure if telepathy is such a far fetched notion. Have you read some of the things that string theory and the likes have brought up? It has some really far out implications about "reality" and even our consciousness and whatever level that is on. Even professor Michio Kaku has admitted that there are some really wild things that are possible with the idea of hyperspace. It's a thing to check into.
Talking snakes? Maybe not literally, but perhaps in an altered state of mind. And what is an altered state of mind? It's reality for the person experiencing it. And people have long gone into these altered states and brought back knowledge that just plain worked in our world. It's happened time and time again. I think there is a symbolism perhaps that could be playing out here. It's another thing that can be served by the theories of higher dimensions. Perhaps with out meager minds, seeing a higher dimension might persent itself in such a way.
And the evil vs good thing, I know that's real. There is real evil in the world. There are conflicts that exist in mankind. I know those conflicts change throughout history (and I think that is a good thing actually) because I think that we are progressing as a species in our morality and expectations of ourselves as civilized people. It's a "birthing" type process to instigate a new morality (even when it's one of more promise) into a society and it's ugly sometimes. There is going to be backlash that can be intepreted as chaos by some, but I think that we have to go through it. The civil rights movement of the 60's is a good example. Many thought our nation was falling apart during that time, but it was those who just wanted to not face that the change was inevitable because of our march of progress.
I do however get one thing about religion and one of its downfalls. It is a rigid monster at times. Christianity is not immune. Look at how some people have been treated throughout history simply for trying to point out mistreatment or abuse agains them or other groups. The Bible was written in an ancient time. I don't think it's always smart to try to apply ancient morality to a modern world. And this is important; I also don't think it would be smart to apply our modern morality onto that ancient world. They did what they could to keep order and peace and promote survival for their time. Our time is different however. We have new philosophies, interations, and even new things like enlightenment in medicine, psychology, and science in general.
We're in an era that has a responsibility to question those old rules and change them where needed. Is it always a change that turns out good? Nope, but it's one that needs to be meated out and tried nevertheless so that we can pick the good and forgo what didn't work. And something not working is okay, it's a trial and error at best.
So, those ancient texts may sound silly to us today, but then again if you apply some reason discoveries maybe they're not so outlandish. Maybe we will be able to explain those hallucinations and other things with science soon.
Also, just as I'm quick to point out the second look that is needed to make those verses not sound so silly in the Bible, I'm also quick to point out the discoveries we have that need to be applied to the Bible so that we can leave some of those ancient morals behind and find what fits us better. A good example is the gay movement. Modern science, sociology, and psychology is screaming at us that it's okay to let gays be who they want to be and live with us in harmony and acceptance. Yet, some don't want to let go and just believe in our modern world and the positives that can come out of it. That and other civil rights movements are something that needs a second look Biblically. And I think overall, it is occurring. Sometimes I just don't see things happening fast enough. I want to see the world change even more in my lifetime. I want people to learn to love and accept without fear of an ancient text saying they are monsters.
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I dunno, why do parents allow their kids to go through bad things and make the mistakes on their own? Maybe because the lesson sticks after that.
We live in a time of people feeling like everything is entitled to them. Knowledge is not an entitlement, it is something you live through and earn.
And by working through Moses he was able to teach humans a lesson (the philosophical hurdle was leaped) as well as get the physical job done.
If you go to a student and give them all the answers on a worksheet, are they going to be ready for the test that comes later? Or if you let them discover the answers on their own will they have a better chance at success later?
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Perhaps, if God loves all the same, the defeat of Lucifer is his conversion back to God's ways. Perhaps God is letting Lucifer learn his wrong so that he can someday come back to his side. That may be the "defeat" of Lucifer that we hear about.
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Yes, common sense may be applied too. Logic? Sure, but faith needs to be the prevailng mental perspective.
MMO migrant.
You want to know something...don't take life to seriously....same goes for the bible. Angels and what not are very real...but the rest of the BS...trust me, you are going to be in for a big dissappointment. LOL!
Faith in what? The Bible?
Okay, I have faith that the Bible is an ancient manuscript that has some wisdom in it but that needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. Especially by people who try to place it on today's society through literal readings.
It's like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It ain't going to work. And that's why so many people are running away from Christianity and other rigid ancient religions. Because they can see the outdated tattering that goes along with taking it literally.
You want your religion to survive, then start to read it for what it really is and pull it into the modern era. Otherwise, you're going to keep creating more and more examples of things like the Galileo story that play themselves out for future generations to hear. And you're also going to see more an more people beginning to leave and move on to more liberal minded organizations and faiths.
The Catholic Church has many scientists in its ranks who speak out against literal readings of the Bible. That's a good start for them. Unfortunately, for the most part they are kept hidden and quiet as much as possible, even canned if they get too "noisy".
Pope sacks astronomer over evolution debate===============================
Why?
With faith, answers are guessed; with observation, logic, deductive and inductive reasoning, answers are found.
Why?
With faith, answers are guessed; with observation, logic, deductive and inductive reasoning, answers are found.
To move "faith" into science terms, I think I would have to put it on the same level as hypothesis. To put it on the same level as theory would be stretching it. I mean, it's not like the idea of religious faith has even been able to be tested. I think there is more proof of aliens than of Noah and the boat, Jonah and the whale, or even those giants.
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Welcome to the Dark Ages
Welcome to the Dark Ages
Nah, just after things like the Crusades and recent Jihadist bullshit, where "faith" was the prevailing mental perspective, I'd prefer some solid tangible facts over "faith" any day.
MMO migrant.
" Faith is something you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe "
Archie Bunker
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
You would make a great Darkfall Fanboi. seriously.
Hey, this thread is the least hateful of all christianity threads i've ever read on this forum, for the most part we are being respectful. No one has flamed christianity nor those who believe in it. And no, age does not mean maturity, and this is not a good example of that. You are getting offended at peoples views, not personal nor communal attacks.
i dont mind people posting their views on a subject, as long as they are respectful to other people in their "views"
Sometimes peoples views are interpreted as "disrespectful", when if said in any other way would no longer be that person's views. People need to not be as sensitive to how someone feels on a subject. Many middle eastern people hate america, and the people that it houses. Should you or I feel offended that someone hates us for our views on freedom? No. Exactly the same in this case
i agree i was a bit too sensative about this, but i dont see much sense in people asking religous questions on a gaming forum, i believe if somebody really wants to know about a religion they should call up a pastor or go to church one day and ask their questions there. Or even search them in yahoo or google. Religious discussions on this forum are notorious for ending up being flame fests. Which is still possible, and will probably happen.
This thread is basically to ask, respond, ponder. You must admit, when taken at face value, there are so many discrepancies, contradictions, and even just ridiculous notions in the Bible.
For another thing, even if I were to insult the Bilble outright, I hav that right since, as i believe is stated in that same Bible, God gave me free will.
I have no animosity toward any particular faith, although i have much animosity toward certain sects who use that faith to justify the persecution, and even execution, of others who do not believe the same.
Lastly, the Bible is not "God". Unless you have a copy written in Gods' own handwriting, the bible is a book written by men and "claimed" to be the word of God. So believing fully that some spectral being spoke to a man through a burning bush and told him "write this down", when being admitedly more of the "scientifically inclined" as I am, is a bit of a stretch for me.
I make no claims that there is indeed no God or higher power. I only go with what I can see,hear, and touch.
So please, have an open mind to the random ponderings and musings of the many gathered here. Perhaps in even our jesting, there can be purpose.
If you read the Bible like a Fundamentalist (who are a minority of Christians), and assume that fundamentalists are correct in their interpretation of the Bible, if you take parts written by different people, for different reasons, in different centuries and juxtapose them -- in short, if practice willful misrepresentation of the Bible and what it means to discuss the Bible -- then, yes, it's easy to ridicule.
If one went into your average library, grabbed a collection of poems, a biography, a set of short stories, an ancient history, and a play -- then acted as if it was all one stream of writing, and then judged the poem as you would the biography, the collection of short stories the same way as you did the history -- in short, if you misrepresented everything in that library collection -- you would find it equally easy to ridicule.
heck, I have to correct myself -- even few fundamentalists are that irresponsible with their source material.
If, however, you assume the approach of a honest seeker, you will find much there that is wise, much there that still has relevance today, and much that makes sense -- certainly more sense than most documents from the ancient world.
There are much better ways to open up a discussion of the interesting things found in the Bible.
For every segment of the Bible (or any source material), a few simple questions ought to be asked:
Who is writing this?
When was it written?
To whom was it written?
Why was it written?
Then, in all those contexts, one then proceeds to look at the text and attempt to interpret it.
That's just the beginning of what might be a fruitful discussion of these topics.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Welcome to the Dark Ages
Nah, just after things like the Crusades and recent Jihadist bullshit, where "faith" was the prevailing mental perspective, I'd prefer some solid tangible facts over "faith" any day.
Unfortunately, with the many more millions murdered by secularists than religionists any day (Put up Mao against ANY Crusader or Jihadist, and Mao has them all beat hands down -- as does Stalin). That is the result of men without faith ruling.
Religion is no picnic, to be sure, but athiesm appears to be far, far worse.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Richard Dawkins, i believe, sums up God/religion quite well:
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. - Richard Dawkins
The Bible itself proves this time and time again...this God who sent Moses into the mountains to receive the Ten Commandants is himself guilty of breaking most of them...and yet people flock into church every Sunday to give 'praise' to God and his son for all the 'blessing' that have been bestowed upon them....
What has 'theology' ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has 'theology' ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? What makes you think that 'theology' is a subject at all? - Richard Dawkins
I've yet to find anything biblical that has been of any use whatsoever to life, beyond the blatantly obvious of 'be good to each other'
And lastly...
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. - Richard Dawkins
Truth...and you'll hear it even in this day and age, storms are "God's wrath", the universe, earth and everything upon it is "God's Creation" Reason?...well because it's the simplest answer isn't it?...why try to break everything down logically when we can say a immortal, invisible, all-knowing/seeing man in the sky did it.
There is -zero- evidence to prove Heaven, Hell, God, The Holy Spirit or indeed anything that is the basic foundation of Religon -zero evidence- and yet people still flock to it....personally i think religon is the biggest and most popular scam ever devised by man.