As someone else said in this thread. EA as a whole is not doing good lately as a whole. The gaming industry could see bigger gain's. But that doesn't mean all the companies in the biz are doing good. Yea it seen a increase... but factor in the risen cost of making games now... and those increases are not helping out as much as one would think. EA's problem is they let all the power they had in the industry go to their head.... and they bit off more they could chew. And have been getting bit in the ass lately cause of it. Even if they could release a good game, it will still see not so great sales. Mirrors Edge is one.... game got good reviews... but in sales, didn't really rake it in. In a sense i believe it's a testament, on how many people don't like EA, and are sick of their shit. Anyways., job cuts and downgrading the team is normal in mmo world. So this is not a end of a world scenario for Mythic and War... Granted this will affect War... but it will be like any other game... thats found it's niche with a nice solid chunk of mmo players playing it. People love spelling out doom to much.
Has nothing to do with global economics. That's just bull.
Blizzard isn't laying off anyone. Why? Because WoW is doing better then ever! So there is no reason to lay off employees.
Funcom layed off almost their entire US staff end last year. Why? Because their game AoC wasn't doing so good.
And now EA Mythic is laying off people. Why? Because Warhammer Online isn't doing good.
It's not DOOM or game being shut down or anything.
Just simple facts about Warhammer Online not meeting it's expectations. The current server populations (especially here in EU) say enough.
If Warhammer Online was doing good and not so many would have quit the game the past months, then there would not be any reason to lay off people. Especially in such critical departments.
You think comparing any niche game out there, and putting it against WoW is fair??. Everyone and their mother knows how well that game is doing. But for War and any other niche game out there that's settling in... this is nothing new. If population numbers drop... they lose people... easy to grasp that most simplistic idea. It still be the same principle idea for WoW to.
I never said War was not to blame to.... but seriously given how EA is not doing so well lately... helps play into, hurting Mythic also. You would have to be 4 years old... not to think it doesn't has some factor in it.
These let go's will barely hurt WAR if it all...they didnt' release any of the development team while several other EA studios lost devs or worse most of their entire team. Seriously they let go what maybe 40 50? maybe 60 out of of the total 1000 people that EA is letting go due to multiple factors (guestimate since really QA & playtest teams are not that big post launch).
Most of you are completely blowing this out of proportion..when they start firing half or a quarter of the DEV team then I could see all the big hub bub...but then considering the OP's attempt at glorifying anything negative ... seriously troll / fan flames much people?
I still don't get where you people get that WAR failed. It's a great game. NOTHING is ever going to close down WoW, except Blizzard. I'm tired of people talking about "oh this is the wow-killer" and all that crud. THERE WILL BE NO WOW-KILLER, unless Blizzard does it. I've played MMOs with only 5000 subs and it was considered a success. Just because only ~250k people play a game doesn't make or break it. The fact is that if a game is a success in YOUR eyes is YOUR opinion. Imho a 'failed' game is something like Dark and Light, only stays up for a month or two, then has to close up shop. WAR is not a failed game statisitcally, and it's not a failed game in my opinion. As said before, if you don't like WAR go play something else, noone is forcing you to play it (unless you're a chinese gold farmer ). Microsoft didn't make thier projections in the last quarter of 2009, so I guess Microsoft is 'failed' too? jeez. Sony didn't make thier projections...'failed'...Wal-mart didn't make thier projections...'failed'...AMD didn't make thier projections...'failed'...ok I think you get where I'm going with this. Very few companies actually made thier projected profits, and in the way the OP is thinking I guess everyone is 'failed'.
I still don't get where you people get that WAR failed. It's a great game. NOTHING is ever going to close down WoW, except Blizzard. I'm tired of people talking about "oh this is the wow-killer" and all that crud.
This concept that I just posted is the entire problem.
This has nothing to do with people here or WoW.
Who decides if WAR failed... Oh that's right EA.
WAR may have failed on a personal level for some people here..
If EA in a year or so said:
"WAR did not meet the expectations we had for it. It is with sadness that we announce it will be shut down."
Then WAR would have failed... no matter what anyone on this forum posts. No matter what WoW does or doesn't do.
Until then... its just a bunch of people posting on a forum and people replying as if WoW and/or forums has anything to do with it.
Originally posted by DillingerEP You think comparing any niche game out there, and putting it against WoW is fair??.
I know I sure don't. The key thing is.. Warhammer isn't touted as a "niche" game. It wasn't marketed as a "niche game". It was PRed as a mainstream MMO game with Mythic's heads looking squarely at Wow as the main competition. MJ said it plenty of times. Paul Barnett said it plenty of times. Warhammer was not billed to go up against GW or any of the other PvP centric games. It wasn't even said to go up against EVE, which is a oRvR pvp game at heart just like WAR. So I think its more than fair to compare it to the game it was chasing all along.
So this point is not accurate. Talk to MJ now over on the VN Boards and he'll say flatly Warhammer is not a niche game going after a niche audience. Now HAS Warhammer turned into a niche game because it failed to get what they bragged? Yep.
Starting this year, there will no longer be those pesky comparisions financially of Warhammer vs Wow. Everyone knows WAR brought a knife to a gunfight. Even if the game actually worked perfectly, which is FAR from the case, you still would have saw probably a 50% drop off, meaning they still wouldn't be touching Wow.
Look to see more comparisions of Warhammer vs Aion, Warhammer vs AoC (if they can pick up), and probably the big one.. Warhammer vs Eve for #2 behind Wow. That's not even looking down the line too far.
Understand something. There is a cap to the actual 'development team' number behind an MMO (you don't need more than is enough to add new content/squash bugs because in essence the same amount of work is done in a 300k subscription game as there is in a 10 mil subsscription game in terms of patching/content update). This actual 'development team' consists of the managers, programmers, artists and even the QA/Playtesters. However, customer service has nothing to do with the development team and expands/extracts based upon need (keyword here).
Having said that it's also important to understand that an MMO and the team behind it (including QA) are completely separate (unless company/corporation are complete imbeciles) from other games and peformances of the company overall (If it has multiple dev studios/game releases). An MMO has a separate, and unique, revenue model compared to most other games. In turn, they must be treated differently than other games so they are encapsulated into their own entity within the company.
However, games that might be in production like "EA Cricket: European Tours" (hypothetical) which isn't considered a for sure hit are the ones who'll get job cuts when a company is performing poorly overall . You do not cut your money makers and potentially hurt them if they are performing up to expectations. Mythic cuts have nothing to do with our economy right now.
Now, back to Warhammer. Customer Service is the biggest indication that the subscription numbers are going down but that alone isn't enough to say for sure it is. What backs that up is the idea that they did indeed have to cut into the actual development team, the QA/Playtesting areas. Combined together, and if the rumor is true, it is telling you that Warhammer isn't performing well enough (EA's expectations) to keep those people employed. So, yes if the rumor is true, the subscription numbers are down.
Having said that that doesn't mean that Warhammer is in trouble at all. It simply means that what they had before, in terms of staff, no longer is needed. They could have dropped 200k subscriptions but are still 150k to 200k subscriptions above the break even point. Though, cutting into QA/Playtesting is a bit worrisome no matter how you look at it.
When it comes to actual prediction of subscription numbers xfire, though highly inaccurate, is the best tool we have for any mmo that doesn't release it's subscription numbers. So, I'd be far more inclined to bet on numbers from xifre than numbers from someone who has nothing at all. If you think about it, even though xfire isn't an indication of numbers, it does provide a useful/or at least a hint of how things 'might' be doing. That is far better than someone doing some idle speculation based upon how 'crowded' their server appears to be (dense or not).
Bodypass would make a great reporter, rumor = factual absolute news.
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
You think comparing any niche game out there, and putting it against WoW is fair??.
It was PRed as a mainstream MMO game with Mythic's heads looking squarely at Wow as the main competition. MJ said it plenty of times. Paul Barnett said it plenty of times. Warhammer was not billed to go up against GW or any of the other PvP centric games. It wasn't even said to go up against EVE, which is a oRvR pvp game at heart just like WAR. So I think its more than fair to compare it to the game it was chasing all along.
Look to see more comparisions of Warhammer vs Aion, Warhammer vs AoC (if they can pick up), and probably the big one.. Warhammer vs Eve for #2 behind Wow. That's not even looking down the line too far.
What exactly did MJ and co say "plenty of times". I know they said that it wasn't realistic to top WoW and that they would be pretty happy with 2nd place, which is "best of the rest" if you prefer.
Best of the rest = Best Niche game in other words.
Mjb stated that they don't have to top WoW to be successful and that second place was the realistic target.
Now whether they are in second place, third or last is irrelevant. Thing is they set out to conquer second place, and NOT first.
WoW has by far the biggest number of subs so it's every developer's dream (and goal) to reach that much subs but no one would dare say "We're aiming to overthrow WoW" out loud .
Let's just say Mythic were a tad optimistic, nothing wrong with that. Fact is they're happy with second place, and good luck to them (and others) in getting as much $$ from us poor sods as they can!
This is ridiculous, a 6 page thread on a rumor. Even if the rumor is true, who cares, honestly. We are consumers, not investors. These threads are only posted by people who have something against said company. Mythic is doing fine. Of course they are having lay-offs, its not unusual. Remeber when Blizzard cut a whole team, Blizzard North? Did we go screaming foul and stating thier company is in some type of disaster? Nope. The move actually helped spawn another great company, Arena.net. Who's to say they just didn't need them anymore. Maybe the public testing is actually doing a better job, therefore they let them go because it would save them money. That's business people. What next, the get rid of thier janitors and you think its the end of EA? Go play an MMO ............
This one my friend, you'll have to look up for yourself this time. Proofs been posted ad nauseum on plenty of forums all over and I really would'nt want to go down there again lol.
Suffice to say, he was shooting for Wow, which most people have figured out by now, so any other discussion of that would be somewhat passe. He gave a LOT of definitions on what 'successful' would mean (almost changed them monthly) so that one has been debated lots too.
MJ does not ever think Warhammer is a niche game nor has he ever, in which case kid gloves come off when you put yourself up against "the champ" in any area of competition.
Saying Mythic was a "tad optimistic" with regards to their goals and achievements is like saying Christopher Columbus was a tad off finding a new route to the Far East, to India, China, Japan and the Spice Islands, lol. Understatement does not suit you well, my friend.
If they actually are in second place (my money is on EVE) it would indeed be remarkable after their amazing dropoff and incomplete product.
This one my friend, you'll have to look up for yourself this time. Proofs been posted ad nauseum on plenty of forums all over and I really would'nt want to go down there again lol.
Suffice to say, he was shooting for Wow, which most people have figured out by now, so any other discussion of that would be somewhat passe. He gave a LOT of definitions on what 'successful' would mean (almost changed them monthly) so that one has been debated lots too.
MJ does not ever think Warhammer is a niche game nor has he ever, in which case kid gloves come off when you put yourself up against "the champ" in any area of competition.
Saying Mythic was a "tad optimistic" with regards to their goals and achievements is like saying Christopher Columbus was a tad off finding a new route to the Far East, to India, China, Japan and the Spice Islands, lol. Understatement does not suit you well, my friend.
If they actually are in second place (my money is on EVE) it would indeed be remarkable after their amazing dropoff and incomplete product.
Meh whatever. Second place was good enough from the start from Mythic's point of view. Even BEFORE the game launched they always thought that second place was the position they would be happy with.
This was BEFORE launch, where expectations where naturally VERY high and they were hyping the game even more. MjB was very confident and fearless etc., and he STILL didn't dare to utter more than "we're not happy with anything less than second place".
I don't think any links is really necessary as It's common knowledge really. I posted this one because it is the period when WAR, it's developers etc. were the most pumped up.
Yep go ahead to VN forums and ask MjB whether he would be happy with 2nd place or not. I'm not going to rummage through countless posts, interviews etc. to prove it to you.
Yep go ahead to VN forums and ask MjB whether he would be happy with 2nd place or not. I'm not going to rummage through countless posts, interviews etc. to prove it to you.
I think he's too busy answering Nancy Drew questions right now otherwise I'd try. He's all over that thread talking about stock prices and the economy.
Its not update news about Warhammer like people want... but hey, at least he's talking.
I don't think any links is really necessary as It's common knowledge really. I posted this one because it is the period when WAR, it's developers etc. were the most pumped up.
See, I think that's the primary difference between us two, and also the difference fundamentally between ex-players and current players (not that you are current). You would see MJ post something like above in the past and believe it wholly and completely true and as proof he doesn't lie or isn't really clueless. Whereas I see something he posts in an exchange from the past, like this on the WHA boards, and realize the guy just might be a shady ex-lawyer speaking with a forked tongue:
Originally Posted by Garthilk, Admin WHA (5-23-08):
"Folks, Will there be official forums? Maybe. Despite whatever Mark (Jacobs) says about forums today, that answer might change tommorow. That is the nature of business. So, never say never. That said however, Warhammer Alliance will continue to exist the same way it has for the last several years".
Flash forward 3 hours later in response to that post....
Originally posted by Mark Jacobs, WHA (5/23/08):
"Never. There, I said it (again). I would rather hear William Shatner and Roseanne Barr singing a duet while having my fingernails pulled out one by one while sitting in a pool of molten lava than have Mythic's own Official Forums for WAR. How's that for clarity?"
Mark
Shake, stir and flash forward a few months and..... VIOLA! Truth.
Originally Posted by Garthilk, Admin WHA (12-5-08):
The William Shatner and Roseanne Barr Christmas Album
"Rarely has this site ever posted anything by way of news that wasn't first passed by Mythic and fact checked. We've always appreciated the hard work of the developers and have always worked to get the facts straight before we bring it to the community. However, today's news item was met with both the suggestion I talk with someone higher up the food chain and a, "no comment". Despite the official company line, when unofficial people in and out of Mythic, as well as inside EA, all tell you the same thing, well, I'm going to listen and I think you should too.
Contrary to Marks insistence that there will never be official forums, last week I received word that plans are on for the building and launching of official public forums early in the new year. There are plans for three separate official forums, one for the USA, one across the pond at our GOA friends and also one for the good folks in Russia where WAR will be released in early 2009. It should be no surprise that this is going to be a huge undertaking and the community teams are staffing up to handle the new responsibilities." (Condensed: the rest is just not trying to burn bridges with Mythic for calling them on these lies, and for making him look silly on his own forum)
I know, I know. I'm twisting Mark's words. Wait.. it's the economy that made them get forums. Well, he didn't really mean no forums even though he said it (again). No, its big, bad EA forcing widdle Mark to capitulate. No wait, it's Wow's fault this is happening. Or you could always say fake post. It seems Mark is "working as intended". Let's see... you don't care about this and it doesn't prove anything, right?
You believe everything MJ says. Good luck with that. I once told you there's probably MORE evidence of him double speaking on file than telling the truth. (Origins, anyone?)
I wonder if we can get him on record to say anything now on instancing... hmm..
Ok , A month ago I predicted that if WAR would fall under 250 K subs it would come under the hammer of EA cuts. "ALL of the playtest group" : who will do the Beta testing for new content launch then ? The players as usual? Reference: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/01/19/rumor-mythic-layoffs-affect-qa-customer-support/ The past 2 weekends didn't look very good on Xfire, which now shows a 26/1 ratio between Wow and War Xfire players. WE all know that that figure was 6/1 at the end of September.... Just divide 5Million by 26 and it is indeed under the 250K (200K even).
what do you want a brownie botton? I could have told you the same thing about EVERY company in America.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I don't think any links is really necessary as It's common knowledge really. I posted this one because it is the period when WAR, it's developers etc. were the most pumped up.
See, I think that's the primary difference between us two, and also the difference fundamentally between ex-players and current players (not that you are current). You would see MJ post something like above in the past and believe it wholly and completely true and as proof he doesn't lie or isn't really clueless. Whereas I see something he posts in an exchange from the past, like this on the WHA boards, and realize the guy just might be a shady ex-lawyer speaking with a forked tongue:
Originally Posted by Garthilk, Admin WHA (5-23-08):
"Folks, Will there be official forums? Maybe. Despite whatever Mark (Jacobs) says about forums today, that answer might change tommorow. That is the nature of business. So, never say never. That said however, Warhammer Alliance will continue to exist the same way it has for the last several years".
Flash forward 3 hours later in response to that post....
Originally posted by Mark Jacobs, WHA (5/23/08):
"Never. There, I said it (again). I would rather hear William Shatner and Roseanne Barr singing a duet while having my fingernails pulled out one by one while sitting in a pool of molten lava than have Mythic's own Official Forums for WAR. How's that for clarity?"
Mark
Shake, stir and flash forward a few months and..... VIOLA! Truth.
Originally Posted by Garthilk, Admin WHA (12-5-08):
The William Shatner and Roseanne Barr Christmas Album
"Rarely has this site ever posted anything by way of news that wasn't first passed by Mythic and fact checked. We've always appreciated the hard work of the developers and have always worked to get the facts straight before we bring it to the community. However, today's news item was met with both the suggestion I talk with someone higher up the food chain and a, "no comment". Despite the official company line, when unofficial people in and out of Mythic, as well as inside EA, all tell you the same thing, well, I'm going to listen and I think you should too.
Contrary to Marks insistence that there will never be official forums, last week I received word that plans are on for the building and launching of official public forums early in the new year. There are plans for three separate official forums, one for the USA, one across the pond at our GOA friends and also one for the good folks in Russia where WAR will be released in early 2009. It should be no surprise that this is going to be a huge undertaking and the community teams are staffing up to handle the new responsibilities." (Condensed: the rest is just not trying to burn bridges with Mythic for calling them on these lies, and for making him look silly on his own forum)
I know, I know. I'm twisting Mark's words. Wait.. it's the economy that made them get forums. Well, he didn't really mean no forums even though he said it (again). No, its big, bad EA forcing widdle Mark to capitulate. No wait, it's Wow's fault this is happening. Or you could always say fake post. It seems Mark is "working as intended". Let's see... you don't care about this and it doesn't prove anything, right?
You believe everything MJ says. Good luck with that. I once told you there's probably MORE evidence of him double speaking on file than telling the truth. (Origins, anyone?)
I wonder if we can get him on record to say anything now on instancing... hmm..
Hahaha popinjay! Tell me where in my post did I 'defend' MjB? I never said his words were gospel truth.
I just commented on the fact Mythic always said 2nd best was good enough. That's all.
I don't believe MJB knows what he's talking about all the time, and It's obvious he doesn't, take these comments you posted regarding official forums as examples.
However, the topic we were discussing was obviously so predictable, that even Mark "double speaking" Jacobs (as you describe him) NEVER said anything about topping WoW. He is probably feeling WAR is underachieving, but he never stated that WAR was going to dethrone WoW (no one in his right mind would say it).
Everyone makes mistakes. At the end of the day we're all humans. Wait, you think MJB is always wrong? fair enough I DON'T really care.
Hahaha popinjay! Tell me where in my post did I 'defend' MjB? I never said his words were gospel truth. I just commented on the fact Mythic always said 2nd best was good enough. That's all.
I don't believe MJB knows what he's talking about all the time, and It's obvious he doesn't, take these comments you posted regarding official forums as examples.
However, the topic we were discussing was obviously so predictable, that even Mark "double speaking" Jacobs (as you describe him) NEVER said anything about topping WoW. He is probably feeling WAR is underachieving, but he never stated that WAR was going to dethrone WoW (no one in his right mind would say it). Everyone makes mistakes. At the end of the day we're all humans. Wait, you think MJB is always wrong? fair enough I DON'T really care. But don't put words in my mouth! Mark Jacobs is not always right. There. Happy?
Hmm.. I guess we can both go semantical.
Where did I say Jacobs said he was going to 'dethrone' Wow? Where did I say you are defending Jacobs? I never said that. Where did I say MJ was "always wrong?" I didn't even say 'gospel truth', lol. I think we both better be careful of accusing each other of stuffing mouths, no?
Once again with the apologetic understatement of fact, lol. "He is probably feeling WAR is underachieving.." Gee, ya think? ROFL! I'm pretty sure he's not doing cartwheels over there. Between what MJ says and what actually happens and how you gloss over it, you guys could sell 1 million more boxes... just add Paul and mix. Man, you need a PR job for real over there.
Apparently you did care enough to post the link to try and prove a point. But when you got a counterlink and evidence of fibbery, it no longer was important? No problem, ostriching is probably fun, until you actually take your head out of the sand again, I guess.
Things like what he said about those forums is not an example of someone just "not always right" as you say. Why do you think the Admin of that site was pissed? Because he knew Mark was flat out lying and at the same time, it was making him look like a donkey on his own site.
And just to show you what a class act MJ was, when the Admin announces it months later on the record, MJ didn't come back into the thread to acknowlege it, comment on it or even apologize to the guy about it. He sure was 3 hours quick to say "Never" though, cause the guy couldn't prove it yet. When you acknowledge that (if you truly are) MJ can lie like anyone eles, then you can understand why critical posts of Warhammer abound.
Because companies lie about content, about features, about gear, about endgame.. loads of stuff.
Hahaha popinjay! Tell me where in my post did I 'defend' MjB? I never said his words were gospel truth.
I just commented on the fact Mythic always said 2nd best was good enough. That's all.
I don't believe MJB knows what he's talking about all the time, and It's obvious he doesn't, take these comments you posted regarding official forums as examples.
However, the topic we were discussing was obviously so predictable, that even Mark "double speaking" Jacobs (as you describe him) NEVER said anything about topping WoW. He is probably feeling WAR is underachieving, but he never stated that WAR was going to dethrone WoW (no one in his right mind would say it).
Everyone makes mistakes. At the end of the day we're all humans. Wait, you think MJB is always wrong? fair enough I DON'T really care.
But don't put words in my mouth!
Mark Jacobs is not always right. There.
Happy?
Hmm.. I guess we can both go semantical.
Where did I say Jacobs said he was going to 'dethrone' Wow? Where did I say you are defending Jacobs? I never said that. Where did I say MJ was "always wrong?" I didn't even say 'gospel truth', lol. I think we both better be careful of accusing each other of stuffing mouths, no?
Once again with the apologetic understatement of fact, lol. "He is probably feeling WAR is underachieving.." Gee, ya think? ROFL! I'm pretty sure he's not doing cartwheels over there. Between what MJ says and what actually happens and how you gloss over it, you guys could sell 1 million more boxes... just add Paul and mix. Man, you need a PR job for real over there.
Apparently you did care enough to post the link to try and prove a point. But when you got a counterlink and evidence of fibbery, it no longer was important? No problem, ostriching is probably fun, until you actually take your head out of the sand again, I guess.
Things like what he said about those forums is not an example of someone just "not always right" as you say. Why do you think the Admin of that site was pissed? Because he knew Mark was flat out lying and at the same time, it was making him look like a donkey on his own site.
And just to show you what a class act MJ was, when the Admin announces it months later on the record, MJ didn't come back into the thread to acknowlege it, comment on it or even apologize to the guy about it. He sure was 3 hours quick to say "Never" though, cause the guy couldn't prove it yet. When you acknowledge that (if you truly are) MJ can lie like anyone eles, then you can understand why critical posts of Warhammer abound.
Because companies lie about content, about features, about gear, about endgame.. loads of stuff.
You know, the possible answer to all of this is that Mythic isn't hosting the new fourum, it'll be EA that is hosting, modding etc. That potential event will fit both "facts" without breaking them. MJ said Mythic would never do it. That statement doesn't preclude EA doing an end run to do it.
You know, the possible answer to all of this is that Mythic isn't hosting the new fourum, it'll be EA that is hosting, modding etc. That potential event will fit both "facts" without breaking them. MJ said Mythic would never do it. That statement doesn't preclude EA doing an end run to do it.
Possible, but not likely. It's more likely that MJ will have the official forums on his end, and then will want to oversee it as he usually wants to oversee everything else. If you read the whole exchange between the two and you got what you came up with, I'd say you are reaching a bit. We could say it's possible a "third party" authorized by EA will host the Offical forums. After all, "MJ said Mythic would never do it" as you say. But its usually better to go on what's stated in print over time as a body of work. Nothing gives clarity and perspective like time does. And we've seen what he said in May and the reality in December.
Given what we know MJ said and his reactions/non-reactions to the newsleak, I really believe Occam's Razor applies in this situation. You can bet MJ would have been the first one out of the gate (if your theory was correct) explaining that was the case. He doesn't want to look silly either. "Folks, Mythic is not hosting the forums. EA will host them. There is no conflict with what I said about Mythic never having forums" would have been the next words printed after the WHA scoop.
Why on earth would anyone be so obsessed about a game they would laugh about some poor people that just got laid off work. Just think about them and their families before you think about your dinky gamer feud. Let's hope they can find a new project as soon as possible.
Comments
Has nothing to do with global economics. That's just bull.
Blizzard isn't laying off anyone. Why? Because WoW is doing better then ever! So there is no reason to lay off employees.
Funcom layed off almost their entire US staff end last year. Why? Because their game AoC wasn't doing so good.
And now EA Mythic is laying off people. Why? Because Warhammer Online isn't doing good.
It's not DOOM or game being shut down or anything.
Just simple facts about Warhammer Online not meeting it's expectations. The current server populations (especially here in EU) say enough.
If Warhammer Online was doing good and not so many would have quit the game the past months, then there would not be any reason to lay off people. Especially in such critical departments.
Cheers
You think comparing any niche game out there, and putting it against WoW is fair??. Everyone and their mother knows how well that game is doing. But for War and any other niche game out there that's settling in... this is nothing new. If population numbers drop... they lose people... easy to grasp that most simplistic idea. It still be the same principle idea for WoW to.
I never said War was not to blame to.... but seriously given how EA is not doing so well lately... helps play into, hurting Mythic also. You would have to be 4 years old... not to think it doesn't has some factor in it.
These let go's will barely hurt WAR if it all...they didnt' release any of the development team while several other EA studios lost devs or worse most of their entire team. Seriously they let go what maybe 40 50? maybe 60 out of of the total 1000 people that EA is letting go due to multiple factors (guestimate since really QA & playtest teams are not that big post launch).
Most of you are completely blowing this out of proportion..when they start firing half or a quarter of the DEV team then I could see all the big hub bub...but then considering the OP's attempt at glorifying anything negative ... seriously troll / fan flames much people?
I still don't get where you people get that WAR failed. It's a great game. NOTHING is ever going to close down WoW, except Blizzard. I'm tired of people talking about "oh this is the wow-killer" and all that crud. THERE WILL BE NO WOW-KILLER, unless Blizzard does it. I've played MMOs with only 5000 subs and it was considered a success. Just because only ~250k people play a game doesn't make or break it. The fact is that if a game is a success in YOUR eyes is YOUR opinion. Imho a 'failed' game is something like Dark and Light, only stays up for a month or two, then has to close up shop. WAR is not a failed game statisitcally, and it's not a failed game in my opinion. As said before, if you don't like WAR go play something else, noone is forcing you to play it (unless you're a chinese gold farmer
). Microsoft didn't make thier projections in the last quarter of 2009, so I guess Microsoft is 'failed' too? jeez. Sony didn't make thier projections...'failed'...Wal-mart didn't make thier projections...'failed'...AMD didn't make thier projections...'failed'...ok I think you get where I'm going with this. Very few companies actually made thier projected profits, and in the way the OP is thinking I guess everyone is 'failed'.
This concept that I just posted is the entire problem.
This has nothing to do with people here or WoW.
Who decides if WAR failed... Oh that's right EA.
WAR may have failed on a personal level for some people here..
If EA in a year or so said:
"WAR did not meet the expectations we had for it. It is with sadness that we announce it will be shut down."
Then WAR would have failed... no matter what anyone on this forum posts. No matter what WoW does or doesn't do.
Until then... its just a bunch of people posting on a forum and people replying as if WoW and/or forums has anything to do with it.
I know I sure don't. The key thing is.. Warhammer isn't touted as a "niche" game. It wasn't marketed as a "niche game". It was PRed as a mainstream MMO game with Mythic's heads looking squarely at Wow as the main competition. MJ said it plenty of times. Paul Barnett said it plenty of times. Warhammer was not billed to go up against GW or any of the other PvP centric games. It wasn't even said to go up against EVE, which is a oRvR pvp game at heart just like WAR. So I think its more than fair to compare it to the game it was chasing all along.
So this point is not accurate. Talk to MJ now over on the VN Boards and he'll say flatly Warhammer is not a niche game going after a niche audience. Now HAS Warhammer turned into a niche game because it failed to get what they bragged? Yep.
Starting this year, there will no longer be those pesky comparisions financially of Warhammer vs Wow. Everyone knows WAR brought a knife to a gunfight. Even if the game actually worked perfectly, which is FAR from the case, you still would have saw probably a 50% drop off, meaning they still wouldn't be touching Wow.
Look to see more comparisions of Warhammer vs Aion, Warhammer vs AoC (if they can pick up), and probably the big one.. Warhammer vs Eve for #2 behind Wow. That's not even looking down the line too far.
"TO MICHAEL!"
The following assumes the rumor is true:
Understand something. There is a cap to the actual 'development team' number behind an MMO (you don't need more than is enough to add new content/squash bugs because in essence the same amount of work is done in a 300k subscription game as there is in a 10 mil subsscription game in terms of patching/content update). This actual 'development team' consists of the managers, programmers, artists and even the QA/Playtesters. However, customer service has nothing to do with the development team and expands/extracts based upon need (keyword here).
Having said that it's also important to understand that an MMO and the team behind it (including QA) are completely separate (unless company/corporation are complete imbeciles) from other games and peformances of the company overall (If it has multiple dev studios/game releases). An MMO has a separate, and unique, revenue model compared to most other games. In turn, they must be treated differently than other games so they are encapsulated into their own entity within the company.
However, games that might be in production like "EA Cricket: European Tours" (hypothetical) which isn't considered a for sure hit are the ones who'll get job cuts when a company is performing poorly overall . You do not cut your money makers and potentially hurt them if they are performing up to expectations. Mythic cuts have nothing to do with our economy right now.
Now, back to Warhammer. Customer Service is the biggest indication that the subscription numbers are going down but that alone isn't enough to say for sure it is. What backs that up is the idea that they did indeed have to cut into the actual development team, the QA/Playtesting areas. Combined together, and if the rumor is true, it is telling you that Warhammer isn't performing well enough (EA's expectations) to keep those people employed. So, yes if the rumor is true, the subscription numbers are down.
Having said that that doesn't mean that Warhammer is in trouble at all. It simply means that what they had before, in terms of staff, no longer is needed. They could have dropped 200k subscriptions but are still 150k to 200k subscriptions above the break even point. Though, cutting into QA/Playtesting is a bit worrisome no matter how you look at it.
When it comes to actual prediction of subscription numbers xfire, though highly inaccurate, is the best tool we have for any mmo that doesn't release it's subscription numbers. So, I'd be far more inclined to bet on numbers from xifre than numbers from someone who has nothing at all. If you think about it, even though xfire isn't an indication of numbers, it does provide a useful/or at least a hint of how things 'might' be doing. That is far better than someone doing some idle speculation based upon how 'crowded' their server appears to be (dense or not).
splat
Bodypass would make a great reporter, rumor = factual absolute news.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
It was PRed as a mainstream MMO game with Mythic's heads looking squarely at Wow as the main competition. MJ said it plenty of times. Paul Barnett said it plenty of times. Warhammer was not billed to go up against GW or any of the other PvP centric games. It wasn't even said to go up against EVE, which is a oRvR pvp game at heart just like WAR. So I think its more than fair to compare it to the game it was chasing all along.
Look to see more comparisions of Warhammer vs Aion, Warhammer vs AoC (if they can pick up), and probably the big one.. Warhammer vs Eve for #2 behind Wow. That's not even looking down the line too far.
What exactly did MJ and co say "plenty of times". I know they said that it wasn't realistic to top WoW and that they would be pretty happy with 2nd place, which is "best of the rest" if you prefer.
Best of the rest = Best Niche game in other words.
Mjb stated that they don't have to top WoW to be successful and that second place was the realistic target.
Now whether they are in second place, third or last is irrelevant. Thing is they set out to conquer second place, and NOT first.
WoW has by far the biggest number of subs so it's every developer's dream (and goal) to reach that much subs but no one would dare say "We're aiming to overthrow WoW" out loud .
Let's just say Mythic were a tad optimistic, nothing wrong with that. Fact is they're happy with second place, and good luck to them (and others) in getting as much $$ from us poor sods as they can!
This is ridiculous, a 6 page thread on a rumor. Even if the rumor is true, who cares, honestly. We are consumers, not investors. These threads are only posted by people who have something against said company. Mythic is doing fine. Of course they are having lay-offs, its not unusual. Remeber when Blizzard cut a whole team, Blizzard North? Did we go screaming foul and stating thier company is in some type of disaster? Nope. The move actually helped spawn another great company, Arena.net. Who's to say they just didn't need them anymore. Maybe the public testing is actually doing a better job, therefore they let them go because it would save them money. That's business people. What next, the get rid of thier janitors and you think its the end of EA? Go play an MMO ............
This one my friend, you'll have to look up for yourself this time. Proofs been posted ad nauseum on plenty of forums all over and I really would'nt want to go down there again lol.
Suffice to say, he was shooting for Wow, which most people have figured out by now, so any other discussion of that would be somewhat passe. He gave a LOT of definitions on what 'successful' would mean (almost changed them monthly) so that one has been debated lots too.
MJ does not ever think Warhammer is a niche game nor has he ever, in which case kid gloves come off when you put yourself up against "the champ" in any area of competition.
Saying Mythic was a "tad optimistic" with regards to their goals and achievements is like saying Christopher Columbus was a tad off finding a new route to the Far East, to India, China, Japan and the Spice Islands, lol. Understatement does not suit you well, my friend.
If they actually are in second place (my money is on EVE) it would indeed be remarkable after their amazing dropoff and incomplete product.
"TO MICHAEL!"
ROLL CALL!
Salvatoris? Check. Popinjay? Check. Bodypass? Check. ElectricEye? Check. Pheace? Check. Londonmagus? Check. Yamota? Check. Banthis? Check. Kyleran? Check. Ascension? Check.
Mackdawg? Mackdawg? Mackdawg?!?! Oh, you're late.... Check.
The usual are here. We like to yak about it.
Did you bring a tardy note?
"TO MICHAEL!"
This one my friend, you'll have to look up for yourself this time. Proofs been posted ad nauseum on plenty of forums all over and I really would'nt want to go down there again lol.
Suffice to say, he was shooting for Wow, which most people have figured out by now, so any other discussion of that would be somewhat passe. He gave a LOT of definitions on what 'successful' would mean (almost changed them monthly) so that one has been debated lots too.
MJ does not ever think Warhammer is a niche game nor has he ever, in which case kid gloves come off when you put yourself up against "the champ" in any area of competition.
Saying Mythic was a "tad optimistic" with regards to their goals and achievements is like saying Christopher Columbus was a tad off finding a new route to the Far East, to India, China, Japan and the Spice Islands, lol. Understatement does not suit you well, my friend.
If they actually are in second place (my money is on EVE) it would indeed be remarkable after their amazing dropoff and incomplete product.
Meh whatever. Second place was good enough from the start from Mythic's point of view. Even BEFORE the game launched they always thought that second place was the position they would be happy with.
This was BEFORE launch, where expectations where naturally VERY high and they were hyping the game even more. MjB was very confident and fearless etc., and he STILL didn't dare to utter more than "we're not happy with anything less than second place".
www.massively.com/2008/08/29/1-billion-to-compete-with-wow-ridiculous-says-mythic-vp/
I don't think any links is really necessary as It's common knowledge really. I posted this one because it is the period when WAR, it's developers etc. were the most pumped up.
Yep go ahead to VN forums and ask MjB whether he would be happy with 2nd place or not. I'm not going to rummage through countless posts, interviews etc. to prove it to you.
I think he's too busy answering Nancy Drew questions right now otherwise I'd try. He's all over that thread talking about stock prices and the economy.
Its not update news about Warhammer like people want... but hey, at least he's talking.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I don't see why everyone couldn't make this prediction after playing Warhammer.
See, I think that's the primary difference between us two, and also the difference fundamentally between ex-players and current players (not that you are current). You would see MJ post something like above in the past and believe it wholly and completely true and as proof he doesn't lie or isn't really clueless. Whereas I see something he posts in an exchange from the past, like this on the WHA boards, and realize the guy just might be a shady ex-lawyer speaking with a forked tongue:
Originally Posted by Garthilk, Admin WHA (5-23-08):
"Folks, Will there be official forums? Maybe. Despite whatever Mark (Jacobs) says about forums today, that answer might change tommorow. That is the nature of business. So, never say never. That said however, Warhammer Alliance will continue to exist the same way it has for the last several years".
Flash forward 3 hours later in response to that post....
Originally posted by Mark Jacobs, WHA (5/23/08):
"Never. There, I said it (again). I would rather hear William Shatner and Roseanne Barr singing a duet while having my fingernails pulled out one by one while sitting in a pool of molten lava than have Mythic's own Official Forums for WAR. How's that for clarity?"
Mark
Shake, stir and flash forward a few months and..... VIOLA! Truth.
Originally Posted by Garthilk, Admin WHA (12-5-08):
The William Shatner and Roseanne Barr Christmas Album
"Rarely has this site ever posted anything by way of news that wasn't first passed by Mythic and fact checked. We've always appreciated the hard work of the developers and have always worked to get the facts straight before we bring it to the community. However, today's news item was met with both the suggestion I talk with someone higher up the food chain and a, "no comment". Despite the official company line, when unofficial people in and out of Mythic, as well as inside EA, all tell you the same thing, well, I'm going to listen and I think you should too.
Contrary to Marks insistence that there will never be official forums, last week I received word that plans are on for the building and launching of official public forums early in the new year. There are plans for three separate official forums, one for the USA, one across the pond at our GOA friends and also one for the good folks in Russia where WAR will be released in early 2009. It should be no surprise that this is going to be a huge undertaking and the community teams are staffing up to handle the new responsibilities." (Condensed: the rest is just not trying to burn bridges with Mythic for calling them on these lies, and for making him look silly on his own forum)
I know, I know. I'm twisting Mark's words. Wait.. it's the economy that made them get forums. Well, he didn't really mean no forums even though he said it (again). No, its big, bad EA forcing widdle Mark to capitulate. No wait, it's Wow's fault this is happening. Or you could always say fake post. It seems Mark is "working as intended". Let's see... you don't care about this and it doesn't prove anything, right?
You believe everything MJ says. Good luck with that. I once told you there's probably MORE evidence of him double speaking on file than telling the truth. (Origins, anyone?)
I wonder if we can get him on record to say anything now on instancing... hmm..
"TO MICHAEL!"
What does this conversation remind me of ?
Oh wait, the same converations that took place for AoC...
Oh, and TR
Oh.... and Vanguard.......
Oh... and etc......
what do you want a brownie botton? I could have told you the same thing about EVERY company in America.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
See, I think that's the primary difference between us two, and also the difference fundamentally between ex-players and current players (not that you are current). You would see MJ post something like above in the past and believe it wholly and completely true and as proof he doesn't lie or isn't really clueless. Whereas I see something he posts in an exchange from the past, like this on the WHA boards, and realize the guy just might be a shady ex-lawyer speaking with a forked tongue:
Originally Posted by Garthilk, Admin WHA (5-23-08):
"Folks, Will there be official forums? Maybe. Despite whatever Mark (Jacobs) says about forums today, that answer might change tommorow. That is the nature of business. So, never say never. That said however, Warhammer Alliance will continue to exist the same way it has for the last several years".
Flash forward 3 hours later in response to that post....
Originally posted by Mark Jacobs, WHA (5/23/08):
"Never. There, I said it (again). I would rather hear William Shatner and Roseanne Barr singing a duet while having my fingernails pulled out one by one while sitting in a pool of molten lava than have Mythic's own Official Forums for WAR. How's that for clarity?"
Mark
Shake, stir and flash forward a few months and..... VIOLA! Truth.
Originally Posted by Garthilk, Admin WHA (12-5-08):
The William Shatner and Roseanne Barr Christmas Album
"Rarely has this site ever posted anything by way of news that wasn't first passed by Mythic and fact checked. We've always appreciated the hard work of the developers and have always worked to get the facts straight before we bring it to the community. However, today's news item was met with both the suggestion I talk with someone higher up the food chain and a, "no comment". Despite the official company line, when unofficial people in and out of Mythic, as well as inside EA, all tell you the same thing, well, I'm going to listen and I think you should too.
Contrary to Marks insistence that there will never be official forums, last week I received word that plans are on for the building and launching of official public forums early in the new year. There are plans for three separate official forums, one for the USA, one across the pond at our GOA friends and also one for the good folks in Russia where WAR will be released in early 2009. It should be no surprise that this is going to be a huge undertaking and the community teams are staffing up to handle the new responsibilities." (Condensed: the rest is just not trying to burn bridges with Mythic for calling them on these lies, and for making him look silly on his own forum)
I know, I know. I'm twisting Mark's words. Wait.. it's the economy that made them get forums. Well, he didn't really mean no forums even though he said it (again). No, its big, bad EA forcing widdle Mark to capitulate. No wait, it's Wow's fault this is happening. Or you could always say fake post. It seems Mark is "working as intended". Let's see... you don't care about this and it doesn't prove anything, right?
You believe everything MJ says. Good luck with that. I once told you there's probably MORE evidence of him double speaking on file than telling the truth. (Origins, anyone?)
I wonder if we can get him on record to say anything now on instancing... hmm..
Hahaha popinjay! Tell me where in my post did I 'defend' MjB? I never said his words were gospel truth.
I just commented on the fact Mythic always said 2nd best was good enough. That's all.
I don't believe MJB knows what he's talking about all the time, and It's obvious he doesn't, take these comments you posted regarding official forums as examples.
However, the topic we were discussing was obviously so predictable, that even Mark "double speaking" Jacobs (as you describe him) NEVER said anything about topping WoW. He is probably feeling WAR is underachieving, but he never stated that WAR was going to dethrone WoW (no one in his right mind would say it).
Everyone makes mistakes. At the end of the day we're all humans. Wait, you think MJB is always wrong? fair enough I DON'T really care.
But don't put words in my mouth!
Mark Jacobs is not always right. There.
Happy?
Hmm.. I guess we can both go semantical.
Where did I say Jacobs said he was going to 'dethrone' Wow? Where did I say you are defending Jacobs? I never said that. Where did I say MJ was "always wrong?" I didn't even say 'gospel truth', lol. I think we both better be careful of accusing each other of stuffing mouths, no?
Once again with the apologetic understatement of fact, lol. "He is probably feeling WAR is underachieving.." Gee, ya think? ROFL! I'm pretty sure he's not doing cartwheels over there. Between what MJ says and what actually happens and how you gloss over it, you guys could sell 1 million more boxes... just add Paul and mix. Man, you need a PR job for real over there.
Apparently you did care enough to post the link to try and prove a point. But when you got a counterlink and evidence of fibbery, it no longer was important? No problem, ostriching is probably fun, until you actually take your head out of the sand again, I guess.
Things like what he said about those forums is not an example of someone just "not always right" as you say. Why do you think the Admin of that site was pissed? Because he knew Mark was flat out lying and at the same time, it was making him look like a donkey on his own site.
And just to show you what a class act MJ was, when the Admin announces it months later on the record, MJ didn't come back into the thread to acknowlege it, comment on it or even apologize to the guy about it. He sure was 3 hours quick to say "Never" though, cause the guy couldn't prove it yet. When you acknowledge that (if you truly are) MJ can lie like anyone eles, then you can understand why critical posts of Warhammer abound.
Because companies lie about content, about features, about gear, about endgame.. loads of stuff.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I want a brownie!
Just read the article and of course EA confirmed it in not that many words.
Of course guys that were layed off went to the press and ....EA DID NOT deny it.
The day Mythic signed for EA they signed their death.... as an independant MMO developper.
THAT was the message. Not the OP. ... btw Massively already brought the news also...
I agree. A lot of the annoying stuff I saw in WAR, was just plain outright EA scam material.
"AoC is a benchmark MMO" -Gamespot.com
Hmm.. I guess we can both go semantical.
Where did I say Jacobs said he was going to 'dethrone' Wow? Where did I say you are defending Jacobs? I never said that. Where did I say MJ was "always wrong?" I didn't even say 'gospel truth', lol. I think we both better be careful of accusing each other of stuffing mouths, no?
Once again with the apologetic understatement of fact, lol. "He is probably feeling WAR is underachieving.." Gee, ya think? ROFL! I'm pretty sure he's not doing cartwheels over there. Between what MJ says and what actually happens and how you gloss over it, you guys could sell 1 million more boxes... just add Paul and mix. Man, you need a PR job for real over there.
Apparently you did care enough to post the link to try and prove a point. But when you got a counterlink and evidence of fibbery, it no longer was important? No problem, ostriching is probably fun, until you actually take your head out of the sand again, I guess.
Things like what he said about those forums is not an example of someone just "not always right" as you say. Why do you think the Admin of that site was pissed? Because he knew Mark was flat out lying and at the same time, it was making him look like a donkey on his own site.
And just to show you what a class act MJ was, when the Admin announces it months later on the record, MJ didn't come back into the thread to acknowlege it, comment on it or even apologize to the guy about it. He sure was 3 hours quick to say "Never" though, cause the guy couldn't prove it yet. When you acknowledge that (if you truly are) MJ can lie like anyone eles, then you can understand why critical posts of Warhammer abound.
Because companies lie about content, about features, about gear, about endgame.. loads of stuff.
You know, the possible answer to all of this is that Mythic isn't hosting the new fourum, it'll be EA that is hosting, modding etc. That potential event will fit both "facts" without breaking them. MJ said Mythic would never do it. That statement doesn't preclude EA doing an end run to do it.
Possible, but not likely. It's more likely that MJ will have the official forums on his end, and then will want to oversee it as he usually wants to oversee everything else. If you read the whole exchange between the two and you got what you came up with, I'd say you are reaching a bit. We could say it's possible a "third party" authorized by EA will host the Offical forums. After all, "MJ said Mythic would never do it" as you say. But its usually better to go on what's stated in print over time as a body of work. Nothing gives clarity and perspective like time does. And we've seen what he said in May and the reality in December.
Given what we know MJ said and his reactions/non-reactions to the newsleak, I really believe Occam's Razor applies in this situation. You can bet MJ would have been the first one out of the gate (if your theory was correct) explaining that was the case. He doesn't want to look silly either. "Folks, Mythic is not hosting the forums. EA will host them. There is no conflict with what I said about Mythic never having forums" would have been the next words printed after the WHA scoop.
I guess we'll wait this year.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Good luck to you all,
Goeegoanna