...EVE's not hard to find out as its going to be a fair number of light years, You can find the information out I just needed to get it. and its approximately 125ly by 125ly figure that the map is square and one of the jump route s I got not quite from the top of the map to the bottom of the map was 106ly. EVE has a built in measure ment system for determining jumps and warp distances so it is very easy to figure out. Also star systems range from 15 AU to 190AU across. from what i have seen.
You guys really don't get what I am saying do you?
But again, you end up using movement and time as a measuring stick?
And my point is that 'distance' measured in whatever unit you choose to use is not relevant because those units are arbitrary. As I say, EvE would probably 'win' by this method because weapons have 'ranges' measured in 'kilometres'. In reality though this is simply a number chosen by the designers.
Travel time is your raw data. But yes, the more time the measurement is repeated the more reliable the result will become.
And a good experiment is repeatable.
You have to eventually use movement and time as a measuring stick, but there is nothing wrong with that if you calibrate your units appropriately. There are many accurate scientific measurements where time is used to calculate distance (like distance to the moon). Since we do not have a virtual meter rule this is the only method. I still strongly suggest we should try to calibrate our measurement as much as possible.
My suggestion of using known ranges to calibrate walk rate will clearly not work if we have no known ranges - I agree. But it offers an opportunity to increase accuracy when the game provides us with additional range cues. If you are going to attempt to calculate range you can use game clues to better approximate the exact walk rate. Ultimately this may be impossible in some games, but in some games it is possible to do so.
I understand your comment with regards to in game ranges. Clearly the game may exaggerate the ranges so their values are incorrect. Mind you there is simply no way we can compare the 3D EVE space to any land-based MMO, and creating bigger space is not as difficult as creating more land mass.
We can JUST use in game travel time, I agree, but this means a game with a faster walk rate will ultimately be measured as smaller. If we are not convinced by the in game measurements I would still attempt to calibrate distance by another method. We could use the perspective and the relative size of buildings or NPCs as we approach them, or in places where there are numerous landmarks or willing helpers we can use the parallax method as another input into our base calibration.
This idea is prompted by this thread. And this image:
It is an idea I have been thinking on for some time. How to compare the size of MMO worlds?
I would suggest that to make any comparison of this sort you need a Consistent Scale.
The only meaningful scale you can use from MMO to MMO is travel time? (or is there a better way?)
How long does it take to run (walk) fom one side of the 'world' to another?
In cases where you cannot run (EvE, PotBS) I would suggest the benchmark is travel in the default (n00bie) ship / craft / avatar without buffs.
In instanced game worlds (Tabula Rasa) I would suggest the world side be measured by adding up the cumulative travel time to cross the areas to travel from the furthest point to the furthest point. I would suggest that if the world is too big - or straight line travel is not possible - it should be allowable to measure the distance between two points and then use that measure to scale to estimate travel time to cross the world.
But, just to be clear, you may NOT include spaces that use time compression in this estimate (like saying it would take 6 hours to cross the sea in WOW - travel across the sea takes seconds because of time compression no matter how you do it IIRC) So, how big is your world?
i guess the picture confuses me -- are we talking about games you can actually play? or can i just create a map and pretend it's a game and give an estimate on how big it is?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
This idea is prompted by this thread. And this image:
....
i guess the picture confuses me -- are we talking about games you can actually play? or can i just create a map and pretend it's a game and give an estimate on how big it is?
LOL. Yeah - I get your point. ;-D
FWIW I have been clear to say that the Darkfall map estimate is our "best guess".
...You have to eventually use movement and time as a measuring stick, but there is nothing wrong with that if you calibrate your units appropriately. There are many accurate scientific measurements where time is used to calculate distance (like distance to the moon). Since we do not have a virtual meter rule this is the only method. I still strongly suggest we should try to calibrate our measurement as much as possible. My suggestion of using known ranges to calibrate walk rate will clearly not work if we have no known ranges - I agree. But it offers an opportunity to increase accuracy when the game provides us with additional range cues. If you are going to attempt to calculate range you can use game clues to better approximate the exact walk rate. Ultimately this may be impossible in some games, but in some games it is possible to do so. Maybe. But rarely. This whole thing gets complicated by the fact that game designers scale things to fit their design. IIRC someone calculated that based on a comparative scale the infantrymen in WWIIoL are all 8 feet tall!?
So, if you are going to do this sort of thing you have to be very sure of all your scales. And that is a lot of work for little gain.
It completely fails in games like EvE and PotBS where the scales are completely warped to fit the design. I understand your comment with regards to in game ranges. Clearly the game may exaggerate the ranges so their values are incorrect. Mind you there is simply no way we can compare the 3D EVE space to any land-based MMO, and creating bigger space is not as difficult as creating more land mass. Technically, it's the same. You are simply creating more 'game space'. We can JUST use in game travel time, I agree, but this means a game with a faster walk rate will ultimately be measured as smaller. Yes. And so it should be. We are measuring the relative size of 'game worlds'. As your travel speed increases the world appears to shrink. Even IRL you hear people talk about how the world is "smaller now" thanks to better communications and decreased travel times. If we are not convinced by the in game measurements I would still attempt to calibrate distance by another method. We could use the perspective and the relative size of buildings or NPCs as we approach them, or in places where there are numerous landmarks or willing helpers we can use the parallax method as another input into our base calibration.
Your dtu theory is extremely flawed because your averaging a standard pace. Averaging does not give you accurate results. Not only do videogame characters move at different speeds then eachother in the same game (tarren race in WoW) but they certainly don't represent other games character movement speed . So when your comparing different games dtu your using different character speeds which leads to you comparing differents dtu parameters. Wow standard pace is way different then AoC standard pace.
So what I'm saying is a char in WoW can cross the map in 1 hour but a char in AoC could cross the same WoW map in 40 min, which one is right? (just examples not real figures)
The only way to accurately find distance ingame is to find an object of a proven measurement and scale it to an acurate map of the region. Now finding an object that you know the exact measurement in a video may be tough. Maybe a weapon has stats saying it x inches long or your charater is 6'2". Once you find out the map size then you can accurately calculate movement speed.
I'm no mathmatician but I soon as I saw the word Standard Pace I knew something was off. Also srry to necro this thread but gyrus linked this from another thread.
Your dtu theory is extremely flawed because your averaging a standard pace. Averaging does not give you accurate results. Not only do videogame characters move at different speeds then eachother in the same game (tarren race in WoW) but they certainly don't represent other games character movement speed . So when your comparing different games dtu your using different character speeds which leads to you comparing differents dtu parameters. Wow standard pace is way different then AoC standard pace. I think I covered that by saying that you should use the basic character, unbuffed and human if possible?
So what I'm saying is a char in WoW can cross the map in 1 hour but a char in AoC could cross the same WoW map in 40 min, which one is right? (just examples not real figures) No, an AoC character could not cross the WoW map... because it is an AoC Character. To put it in WoW it would have to be put there by Blizzard who would remodel and rescale it - making it a WoW character. The only way to accurately find distance ingame is to find an object of a proven measurement and scale it to an acurate map of the region. Now finding an object that you know the exact measurement in a video may be tough. Maybe a weapon has stats saying it x inches long or your charater is 6'2". Once you find out the map size then you can accurately calculate movement speed. My underlining and italics. The underlining is the problem - the italics is where you explain for me why this does not work.
Think about this - what say the Darkfall Developers wanted to lay claim to the 'biggest world' and it was done by 'scale' as you suggest?
All they would have to say is "Darkfall is the land of the giants... most people don't appreciate that... in fact your average Darkfall character is 10 metres tall and standard broadsword is 4 metres (about 12 feet) long. So our world is in fact 5 times larger than people thought..." I'm no mathmatician but I soon as I saw the word Standard Pace I knew something was off. Also srry to necro this thread but gyrus linked this from another thread.
I once [ 4 years ago] had to move some stuff from one side of the Eve map to the other in a Industrial hauler. It took me 4 hours and 30 minuites to cross the map using the autopilot [This was in the days when you warped ontop of the stargates].
It was a long time tho so i cant give you an exact starting and ending system only i can say is i started within 8 jumps of one end of the map and finnished withing 10 of the oposite end.
I am assuming you just want to know the time it took right?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Ryzom's world is quite large. It took me almost 2 hours (with a couple of stops in between) to run from one region to another that bordered it. Those two regions make up maybe a quarter (if that) of the entire game world.
I would estimate it would take about 4-5 hours to run across the Ryzom game world. If you didn't get killed by a KP along the way.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I once [ 4 years ago] had to move some stuff from one side of the Eve map to the other in a Industrial hauler. It took me 4 hours and 30 minuites to cross the map using the autopilot [This was in the days when you warped ontop of the stargates].
It was a long time tho so i cant give you an exact starting and ending system only i can say is i started within 8 jumps of one end of the map and finnished withing 10 of the oposite end.
I am assuming you just want to know the time it took right?
Thanks - yes.
That's actually smaller than I thought (based on what other people say).
Is an Industrial Hauler 'faster' than other ships?
Yes about the time. Travel time is really the only consistent measure (from game to game).
EvE is the classic example as to why.
For those who want to use 'scale' - consider that the size of some EvE ships is supposed to be quite large (anyone give any dimensions here? I read something about a Titan ship class?)
Distances in EvE are supposed to be Light Years.
So, if you favor scaling... EvE wins now and will probably always win. End of discussion.
that is exactly why I DON'T favor scaling in this way.
I once [ 4 years ago] had to move some stuff from one side of the Eve map to the other in a Industrial hauler. It took me 4 hours and 30 minuites to cross the map using the autopilot [This was in the days when you warped ontop of the stargates].
It was a long time tho so i cant give you an exact starting and ending system only i can say is i started within 8 jumps of one end of the map and finnished withing 10 of the oposite end.
I am assuming you just want to know the time it took right?
Thanks - yes.
That's actually smaller than I thought (based on what other people say).
Is an Industrial Hauler 'faster' than other ships?
Yes about the time. Travel time is really the only consistent measure (from game to game).
EvE is the classic example as to why.
For those who want to use 'scale' - consider that the size of some EvE ships is supposed to be quite large (anyone give any dimensions here? I read something about a Titan ship class?)
Distances in EvE are supposed to be Light Years.
So, if you favor scaling... EvE wins now and will probably always win. End of discussion.
that is exactly why I DON'T favor scaling in this way.
The issue with eve is warp.
Normal speed in Eve is around 250ms - 500ms for non interceptors and speed ships. However warp speed is an increased form of traveling from system to system, where you travel at several AU per second as opposed to the normal speed.
Also, ships in eve have different warp speeds.
So, if you were to use a frigate in normal speed to go from gate to gate and cross eve... it would take you years. If you used it to travel from gate to gate at warp to 0 it would be faster than most normal ships as its smaller and your time would be drastically increased.
Warp almost seems like quick travel from other games.
The other issue is Wormhole space its space that is kind of in an alternate dimension from normal space that you cant access in direct routes making it hard to account for.
Finally you have the Eve routing system that would plot you the fastest way or the safest way to get from A to B, and the way systems are oriented that to might not be a fair judgment.
EvE's 3d universe, + wormholes, + 2 speed types make it rather hard to judge fairly by this method of measurement.
Comments
You guys really don't get what I am saying do you?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
You have to eventually use movement and time as a measuring stick, but there is nothing wrong with that if you calibrate your units appropriately. There are many accurate scientific measurements where time is used to calculate distance (like distance to the moon). Since we do not have a virtual meter rule this is the only method. I still strongly suggest we should try to calibrate our measurement as much as possible.
My suggestion of using known ranges to calibrate walk rate will clearly not work if we have no known ranges - I agree. But it offers an opportunity to increase accuracy when the game provides us with additional range cues. If you are going to attempt to calculate range you can use game clues to better approximate the exact walk rate. Ultimately this may be impossible in some games, but in some games it is possible to do so.
I understand your comment with regards to in game ranges. Clearly the game may exaggerate the ranges so their values are incorrect. Mind you there is simply no way we can compare the 3D EVE space to any land-based MMO, and creating bigger space is not as difficult as creating more land mass.
We can JUST use in game travel time, I agree, but this means a game with a faster walk rate will ultimately be measured as smaller. If we are not convinced by the in game measurements I would still attempt to calibrate distance by another method. We could use the perspective and the relative size of buildings or NPCs as we approach them, or in places where there are numerous landmarks or willing helpers we can use the parallax method as another input into our base calibration.
i guess the picture confuses me -- are we talking about games you can actually play? or can i just create a map and pretend it's a game and give an estimate on how big it is?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
i guess the picture confuses me -- are we talking about games you can actually play? or can i just create a map and pretend it's a game and give an estimate on how big it is?
LOL. Yeah - I get your point. ;-D
FWIW I have been clear to say that the Darkfall map estimate is our "best guess".
On the map I mean...
Not whether Darkfall actually exists... ;-D
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Your dtu theory is extremely flawed because your averaging a standard pace. Averaging does not give you accurate results. Not only do videogame characters move at different speeds then eachother in the same game (tarren race in WoW) but they certainly don't represent other games character movement speed . So when your comparing different games dtu your using different character speeds which leads to you comparing differents dtu parameters. Wow standard pace is way different then AoC standard pace.
So what I'm saying is a char in WoW can cross the map in 1 hour but a char in AoC could cross the same WoW map in 40 min, which one is right? (just examples not real figures)
The only way to accurately find distance ingame is to find an object of a proven measurement and scale it to an acurate map of the region. Now finding an object that you know the exact measurement in a video may be tough. Maybe a weapon has stats saying it x inches long or your charater is 6'2". Once you find out the map size then you can accurately calculate movement speed.
I'm no mathmatician but I soon as I saw the word Standard Pace I knew something was off. Also srry to necro this thread but gyrus linked this from another thread.
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I once [ 4 years ago] had to move some stuff from one side of the Eve map to the other in a Industrial hauler. It took me 4 hours and 30 minuites to cross the map using the autopilot [This was in the days when you warped ontop of the stargates].
It was a long time tho so i cant give you an exact starting and ending system only i can say is i started within 8 jumps of one end of the map and finnished withing 10 of the oposite end.
I am assuming you just want to know the time it took right?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
I know this is an old htrad but I still find it interesting. I really wish we could get more people in on this and cover the majority of the P2p mmos.
I know Eve is massive and I'm sure Atys (Ryzoms world) can easily give WoW and lotro a run for thier money.
Curious about the others.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Ryzom's world is quite large. It took me almost 2 hours (with a couple of stops in between) to run from one region to another that bordered it. Those two regions make up maybe a quarter (if that) of the entire game world.
I would estimate it would take about 4-5 hours to run across the Ryzom game world. If you didn't get killed by a KP along the way.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Thanks - yes.
That's actually smaller than I thought (based on what other people say).
Is an Industrial Hauler 'faster' than other ships?
Yes about the time. Travel time is really the only consistent measure (from game to game).
EvE is the classic example as to why.
For those who want to use 'scale' - consider that the size of some EvE ships is supposed to be quite large (anyone give any dimensions here? I read something about a Titan ship class?)
Distances in EvE are supposed to be Light Years.
So, if you favor scaling... EvE wins now and will probably always win. End of discussion.
that is exactly why I DON'T favor scaling in this way.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
A world can be as big as you want, but if its full of crap is worth nothing.
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
Not really contributing here.
Define "crap".
I don't like fishing - so does that mean that an MMO or game about fishing is 'crap'?
Yes?
Apparently not everyone agrees.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Thanks - yes.
That's actually smaller than I thought (based on what other people say).
Is an Industrial Hauler 'faster' than other ships?
Yes about the time. Travel time is really the only consistent measure (from game to game).
EvE is the classic example as to why.
For those who want to use 'scale' - consider that the size of some EvE ships is supposed to be quite large (anyone give any dimensions here? I read something about a Titan ship class?)
Distances in EvE are supposed to be Light Years.
So, if you favor scaling... EvE wins now and will probably always win. End of discussion.
that is exactly why I DON'T favor scaling in this way.
The issue with eve is warp.
Normal speed in Eve is around 250ms - 500ms for non interceptors and speed ships. However warp speed is an increased form of traveling from system to system, where you travel at several AU per second as opposed to the normal speed.
Also, ships in eve have different warp speeds.
So, if you were to use a frigate in normal speed to go from gate to gate and cross eve... it would take you years. If you used it to travel from gate to gate at warp to 0 it would be faster than most normal ships as its smaller and your time would be drastically increased.
Warp almost seems like quick travel from other games.
The other issue is Wormhole space its space that is kind of in an alternate dimension from normal space that you cant access in direct routes making it hard to account for.
Finally you have the Eve routing system that would plot you the fastest way or the safest way to get from A to B, and the way systems are oriented that to might not be a fair judgment.
EvE's 3d universe, + wormholes, + 2 speed types make it rather hard to judge fairly by this method of measurement.
I'd have to say size or world doesn't matter in terms of entertainment. It is what there is to do in that world that should be a measure.
RL example: Manhattan = land area of 22.96 square miles
Sahara Desert = over 3,000,000 square miles.
I think there's more to do in Manhattan than in the Sahara unless you like sandbox stuff... that's my analogy.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."