Originally posted by ketrine Now.. you might be right that there's never going to be a game with no "levels" but not because it can't be done - but because people lack creativity, or lack the desire to break the mold.
That's the thing, when you see games break the mold, they don't generate much hype and usually people don't like them. AoC had lots of hype before it came out? Why? Because it had innovations of improvements on existing material used. I am all for breaking the mold, but I have spent countless of hours trying too and not sure you can because there is a massive risk factor with in the publishers.
I understand it is risky business, but if we wanted to play WoW, it is there, we can play it. Why would we want to play a WoW clone? If there's nothing different about your game, why should we pay to do the same thing in a different setting?
Also, I understand that AoC was ultra linear, ultra instanced, and bug ridden. I never played, so this could be incorrect IDK from firsthand experience. There might be more to it than just "they tried something new and failed". Did you work on AoC some? It has good graphics i hear.
If nobody tries anything new we will get more of what we have been getting - mediocrity. You will never have a smash hit if you copycat. I'm not usually one for predicting, but I'm going to say that in the next 3 to 4 years somebody is going to come out with an MMO game that is really different. This game will be an amazing success, and it will be totally unlike WoW.
endgame is not a failure by any means. It's essentially what everyone looks for in an mmo today and only a very very small fraction of players think otherwise.
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Do not compare apples with oranges. EVE is a pvp game. The endgame is pvp. Remove the pvp element from EVE and see how fun a game it becomes. A PVE game like EQ2, Vanguard or EQ, have to have a different kind of endgame. Beating extremely difficult raid encounters, farming for loot to be able to beat said encounters, and doing longass quests.
And don't compare WoW with the majority of MMO's out there. Not all of the games are as easy as it is. EQ2's Shadow odyssey released 3 months ago, and in that time only 1 out of the 4 raid zones has been cleared. And only a couple of guilds have managed to clear that zone in each server (if that many). For some games, beating endgame content is still a challenge and means something.
EVE has NO ENDGAME. You never maxout, ever. There is no end goal period.
Originally posted by ketrine Now.. you might be right that there's never going to be a game with no "levels" but not because it can't be done - but because people lack creativity, or lack the desire to break the mold.
That's the thing, when you see games break the mold, they don't generate much hype and usually people don't like them. AoC had lots of hype before it came out? Why? Because it had innovations of improvements on existing material used. I am all for breaking the mold, but I have spent countless of hours trying too and not sure you can because there is a massive risk factor with in the publishers.
I understand it is risky business, but if we wanted to play WoW, it is there, we can play it. Why would we want to play a WoW clone? If there's nothing different about your game, why should we pay to do the same thing in a different setting?
Also, I understand that AoC was ultra linear, ultra instanced, and bug ridden. I never played, so this could be incorrect IDK from firsthand experience. There might be more to it than just "they tried something new and failed". Did you work on AoC some? It has good graphics i hear.
If nobody tries anything new we will get more of what we have been getting - mediocrity. You will never have a smash hit if you copycat. I'm not usually one for predicting, but I'm going to say that in the next 3 to 4 years somebody is going to come out with an MMO game that is really different. This game will be an amazing success, and it will be totally unlike WoW.
That is my hope anyway...
Well, you are right, most games do copy wow to try and generate that million dollor revenue. However, if you remember my game thread, mine had alot of different aspects than WoW. I refuse to make a WoW clone. I took alot of the good aspects from EQ. I am trying to set a class game with freedom, which may sound efffed up, but I think I can pull it off. I will be reposting take 2 on that thread. The layout on that thing was awful. But no, I had alot of different aspects which would use strategic avanues for characters with out limations on class. Anyways...
endgame is not a failure by any means. It's essentially what everyone looks for in an mmo today and only a very very small fraction of players think otherwise.
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Do not compare apples with oranges. EVE is a pvp game. The endgame is pvp. Remove the pvp element from EVE and see how fun a game it becomes. A PVE game like EQ2, Vanguard or EQ, have to have a different kind of endgame. Beating extremely difficult raid encounters, farming for loot to be able to beat said encounters, and doing longass quests.
And don't compare WoW with the majority of MMO's out there. Not all of the games are as easy as it is. EQ2's Shadow odyssey released 3 months ago, and in that time only 1 out of the 4 raid zones has been cleared. And only a couple of guilds have managed to clear that zone in each server (if that many). For some games, beating endgame content is still a challenge and means something.
EVE has NO ENDGAME. You never maxout, ever. There is no end goal period.
Last time I checked, WOW is the last thing from failure as you can get=) I assume most people in this thread, NEVER read books, watch TV, play single player RPGs, action games or any game at all, because they'll all linear. They all have ends. A start and finish. I wish I was so enlightened as to HATE gaming like most people in this thread=) Also a little point of note, WOW was the 1st MMO to actually make the journey fun. THATs why millions play it. If UO or EQ had a cool journey, more people would've played. They didn't because the journey was a tedious boring pointless grind. WOW isn't pointless because you have stories to follow. EQ didn't really have quests. Neither did UO. You just played, killed 5000 bores to raise you axe skill or 20k goons in EQ to gain another level. No point. No direction. No purpose. BORING!! Tedious. If you can't see why people find WOW more enjoyable than you really shouldn't be invovled in these sort of discussions.
I am going to defend the old school gamers. EverQuest did make the journey fun. It was fun because I was learning the ins and outs of my class, what to do in a group and what not to do, what it takes to be a good player and not. It also taught us how to have a sucessful community that WoW will never have. Obviously WoW was your first mmo. Like someone said before, about the blank staire because EQ and UO didn't market as well or enough as blizzard did. I found my class and time on WoW as a job more than EQ. As an mmo vet my self, WoW takes out the MMO. It's only there at end game. So your telling us that WoW isn't tedious and reptivite? EQ did have quests, but not much. You had to explore and earn for those quests. Thre was no stupid yellow ! over an NPC's head. Sorry, I don't like my hand being held at every thing I do, unless there is a cute women to do it! lol
WOW would actually be my, 5th or 6th or 15th MMO;) How many MMOs have released since UO? I've played them all=) WOW was more of a job than EQ? Talk about rose colored goggles buddy. WOW actually made the journey of leveling up FUN. Thats why millions are playing it. There was no journey in EQ. It was all a big grind. No stories. Just lots of waiting around. YOu thought it was fun because you never did anything like it before and you had VERY little to compare it to. WOW was repetitive but EQ wasn't? You've got major nostolgia sickness. Remember it rots your brain;)
Stick EQ in its original state vs WOW in its original state and put it in front of 100 gamers who never saw a MMO before. Just GUESS which one will seem more tedious and less fun for 99 of them. Just guess? Your fond memories of EQ are there because it was YOUR first. If you actually look at the games objectively, its not hard to understand how many imporvements Blizzard made. If you can't see it, clean off the goggles.
You ever wonder why Vangaurd didn't sell a few million copies? It resembled the original EQ....tedium, unintiuititve, broken, bugs and all.
Last time I checked, WOW is the last thing from failure as you can get=) I assume most people in this thread, NEVER read books, watch TV, play single player RPGs, action games or any game at all, because they'll all linear. They all have ends. A start and finish. I wish I was so enlightened as to HATE gaming like most people in this thread=) Also a little point of note, WOW was the 1st MMO to actually make the journey fun. THATs why millions play it. If UO or EQ had a cool journey, more people would've played. They didn't because the journey was a tedious boring pointless grind. WOW isn't pointless because you have stories to follow. EQ didn't really have quests. Neither did UO. You just played, killed 5000 bores to raise you axe skill or 20k goons in EQ to gain another level. No point. No direction. No purpose. BORING!! Tedious. If you can't see why people find WOW more enjoyable than you really shouldn't be invovled in these sort of discussions.
I am going to defend the old school gamers. EverQuest did make the journey fun. It was fun because I was learning the ins and outs of my class, what to do in a group and what not to do, what it takes to be a good player and not. It also taught us how to have a sucessful community that WoW will never have. Obviously WoW was your first mmo. Like someone said before, about the blank staire because EQ and UO didn't market as well or enough as blizzard did. I found my class and time on WoW as a job more than EQ. As an mmo vet my self, WoW takes out the MMO. It's only there at end game. So your telling us that WoW isn't tedious and reptivite? EQ did have quests, but not much. You had to explore and earn for those quests. Thre was no stupid yellow ! over an NPC's head. Sorry, I don't like my hand being held at every thing I do, unless there is a cute women to do it! lol
WOW would actually be my, 5th or 6th or 15th MMO;) How many MMOs have released since UO? I've played them all=) WOW was more of a job than EQ? Talk about rose colored goggles buddy. WOW actually made the journey of leveling up FUN. Thats why millions are playing it. There was no journey in EQ. It was all a big grind. No stories. Just lots of waiting around. YOu thought it was fun because you never did anything like it before and you had VERY little to compare it to. WOW was repetitive but EQ wasn't? You've got major nostolgia sickness. Remember it rots your brain;)
Stick EQ in its original state vs WOW in its original state and put it in front of 100 gamers who never saw a MMO before. Just GUESS which one will seem more tedious and less fun for 99 of them. Just guess? Your fond memories of EQ are there because it was YOUR first. If you actually look at the games objectively, its not hard to understand how many imporvements Blizzard made. If you can't see it, clean off the goggles.
You ever wonder why Vangaurd didn't sell a few million copies? It resembled the original EQ....tedium, unintiuititve, broken, bugs and all.
Your one of those gamers who likes to have his hand held. Look, WoW is like McDonalds, just because it serves millions doens't mean it still satisfies you. Just because they sell millions DOES not mean its good for you/good quallity game. Sorry, you never cut it in EQ. If you can comprehend what I wrote, I said both have grinds. WoW is not fun at all. I can barely tolerate it with real life friends. Vanguard didn't sell well because they lost funding. I don't own any goggles sir, I see things very clearly. WoW did make some minor improvements, its the same thing as EQ but dumbed down for players like you. EQ was about community, do you understand what an mmo means? massive MULTIPLAYER online. I would rather play with 100 good players than 10000 horrible, rude idiots who think they know what an mmo is. They all have a reptivive grind. WoW doesn't start till end game anyways. Anyone can tell you that. Who really thinks the journey was fun? It had it's moments but still wont compete with EQ because I'd rather see a living community than playing alone to max level. I would rather explore places and meet new people and help someone along the way. So please, I have explained my self why I think EQ had a fun journey, why is WoW so fun for the journey?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
endgame is not a failure by any means. It's essentially what everyone looks for in an mmo today and only a very very small fraction of players think otherwise.
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Do not compare apples with oranges. EVE is a pvp game. The endgame is pvp. Remove the pvp element from EVE and see how fun a game it becomes. A PVE game like EQ2, Vanguard or EQ, have to have a different kind of endgame. Beating extremely difficult raid encounters, farming for loot to be able to beat said encounters, and doing longass quests.
are uo, pre-cu swg, and COH also pvp games? not really seeing an endgame in those OR eve.
if pvp is endgame for eve, um, it's also start and middle game in eve.
take away the pvp from a game that STATES unequivocally that it is a pvp game, is sorta like taking the pve out of eq2 or wow... it makes no sense, and it can't be used in a logical, reasonable debate BECAUSE it makes no sense.
fact is, not all games REQUIRE "end game" grinding in order to have a feel of progression.
true story.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
WoW doesn't start till end game anyways. Anyone can tell you that. Who really thinks the journey was fun? It had it's moments but still wont compete with EQ because I'd rather see a living community than playing alone to max level. I would rather explore places and meet new people and help someone along the way. So please, I have explained my self why I think EQ had a fun journey, why is WoW so fun for the journey?
"WoW doesn't start till end game" is just BS that 'hardcore' raiders have been brainwashing people with. WoW's endgame is kinda blah. The fun part is the journey there. Every time I level a new character I find new stuff to do and new ways to play through old content. You'll meet new people, share information and can play in a relaxed manner. I never get people who race to max level since they are giving up the interesting stuff for a repetetive gear grind. RPGs are about progression, about a sense of growth, about evolving your character. The early and middle game are like an extended childhood where you get to try new stuff and lean along the way. The 'endgame' is where the basic paths of progression and growth end and you have to 'grow up' and replace that sense of adventure with serious playing.
I believe the trick about EvE is that things get destroyed. Which is good for the market. Which in turn is good for the miners. And the producers, and the sellers and the pirates. Sure, PvP is the driving force behind this. Yet it is very possible for any player to not participate in PvP if he/she doesn't want to.
The real culprit with most MMORPGs is their static and linear nature, given and defined by the developers, not the players. Why can't players tell or make up a story? Let them build areas, buildings, castles and so on. Make MMORPGs true virtual worlds. You say this is not possible? Ever heard about Love? It's a one man MMORPG project. If one man can get that far a proper game studio should be able to get way further.
endgame is not a failure by any means. It's essentially what everyone looks for in an mmo today and only a very very small fraction of players think otherwise.
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Eve really is NOT a good example of success. They never go beyond niche.
The real culprit with most MMORPGs is their static and linear nature, given and defined by the developers, not the players. Why can't players tell or make up a story? Let them build areas, buildings, castles and so on. Make MMORPGs true virtual worlds. You say this is not possible? Ever heard about Love? It's a one man MMORPG project. If one man can get that far a proper game studio should be able to get way further.
Because 99% of the players have no idea of how to tell a story, how to build an interesting area and essentially will produce crap. Remember the horribly ghetto in UO?
MMORPGs are GAMES (that is what the 'G' stands for). Worlds are boring. Make them into good games and people will play.
And current MMORPGs are really not static. You can always wait for content patches & expansion to have more to do. Nothing last forever. A game with content to last for a few months ia a big win.
endgame is not a failure by any means. It's essentially what everyone looks for in an mmo today and only a very very small fraction of players think otherwise.
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Eve really is NOT a good example of success. They never go beyond niche.
Catering to a Niche market and having 250k+ subs isnt successful?
I don't know, I consider any game that has done nothing but grown population wise every year for the last five years a success.
CCP is well off, hell the guys are making another MMO and a FPS game.
WoW is a freak of nature don't think the only game on the market that's successful is the one with 11 million players that's not normal for a mmo. Lotro,WAR,EQ2, Vanguard, AoC all have around 100-200k subs I consider a space game sandbox with extreme death penalty and a Learning cliff a success with almost 300k subs also its the only game out of those that has an increasing playerbase.
That's the thing, when you see games break the mold, they don't generate much hype and usually people don't like them. AoC had lots of hype before it came out? Why? Because it had innovations of improvements on existing material used. I am all for breaking the mold, but I have spent countless of hours trying too and not sure you can because there is a massive risk factor with in the publishers.
I understand it is risky business, but if we wanted to play WoW, it is there, we can play it. Why would we want to play a WoW clone? If there's nothing different about your game, why should we pay to do the same thing in a different setting?
Also, I understand that AoC was ultra linear, ultra instanced, and bug ridden. I never played, so this could be incorrect IDK from firsthand experience. There might be more to it than just "they tried something new and failed". Did you work on AoC some? It has good graphics i hear.
If nobody tries anything new we will get more of what we have been getting - mediocrity. You will never have a smash hit if you copycat. I'm not usually one for predicting, but I'm going to say that in the next 3 to 4 years somebody is going to come out with an MMO game that is really different. This game will be an amazing success, and it will be totally unlike WoW.
That is my hope anyway...
Well, you are right, most games do copy wow to try and generate that million dollor revenue. However, if you remember my game thread, mine had alot of different aspects than WoW. I refuse to make a WoW clone. I took alot of the good aspects from EQ. I am trying to set a class game with freedom, which may sound efffed up, but I think I can pull it off. I will be reposting take 2 on that thread. The layout on that thing was awful. But no, I had alot of different aspects which would use strategic avanues for characters with out limations on class. Anyways...
Strangely enough, I agree with Mr.Bloodsworth. An MMO shouldn't have an 'Endgame', it should just have the game. Why does what you do when you're building your character have to change, or be different than what you do when your character is complete? I think this problem of "endgame" stems from unbalanced and unproportional level systems. Levels are given to much decisivness on the power of your character. Take WoW for example. A level 20 doesn't compare to a level 30, which doesn't come close to a level 40, and on and on. When your character gains enourmous power as it progresses, what you are doing must constantly change. Therefore, when you finally reach max level, you have reached the final hurdle and are now able to do 10x more than you could at the level before. No one is going to bring a level 79 into a raid in WoW, and there are no raids for anything less than 80(well there are old raids, but no one does them because they are pointless). So when you reach 80, suddenly there is a plethora of new stuff to do, thus an endgame. For me, endgame also gives the feeling that anything before max level is pointless and just a timesink. If games were to implement a more discrete power system, where a maxed out character is more powerful than a newer character, but not invinsible, than you would see the line between an "endgame" and the "rest of the game" blur. In this way, newer characters can be playing with and doing the same things as older characters, and it won't matter as much. This would also give the developers a lot more time to work on content that EVERYONE could do, not just people at max level.
I tend to agree with Abraham on this, however, I think there is a little more to it than that.
First of all, there is a major increase in power between levels, because (and we all know it) that there are hidden advantages to being a higher level. For instance in WoW, when you open up your Passive Abilities list, you see your dodge and block and all that - well, in practice, those numbers are only viable against an equal level opponent, be it in PvP or PvE. What i'm saying is, that those numbers are augmented depending on the level difference of your current target. Your chance to hit a higher level MOB is reduced, and their chance to defend is increased. This is problem number one on this whole ideal.
To illustrate this - what difference does it make what your Accuracy is, if it's just going to be reduced if the mob is higher? This is even more stupid in PvP! You level up all this time to get 10% Defense, only to have it reduced to 0% because you're lvl 20 and the other player is level 80? ... Blow! THEY ALREADY HAVE HIGHER STATS!!! WHY INCREASE IT EVEN MORE??!! All this really accomplishes, is it creates a seperation of playerbase. "Look man, I like you and all... but your character sucks, so we can't party together - sorry..."
The ONLY time this would even be feasibly possible is against Boss Characters in PvE - and rightfully so... that's what makes them a "boss", a "challenge". It should be the only thing in the game that signifies "You really aren't high enough level to do this yet." It's almost like a game giving you milestones. But anyway...
Another issue on this problem is that developers only make their game at end level. I mean, they save all the "good stuff" for the last. Okay - fair enough. Except that makes everything you've done since - pointless. Nothing compares to it, thus it is obsolete. They COULD just as well put lvl 80 gear at the beginning of the game. Why? Because you can't use it for 80 levels. You constantly have something in your bank reminding you of what you are trying to accomplish.
Another issue is that developers really haven't tapped into the value of a gamer's market and a crafter's worth. Do you know what the number one factor for a crafter is? Decay. Not to get rich, but to keep the game in a never-"ending" cycle. The mere fact that items decay, automatically promotes rebirth in everything. New armor, new weapons, new tools, new consumables, new reason to keep playing.
SWG (and I hate to go back to this game) had it right on this front. The game, in all of it's problems, simply did not have an ending. Why? Because first of all, you had tight communities brought together by common causes that mattered - in the game. You also weren't stuck with a single character template (hello - rebirth). Your whole objective was to get the "class" you wanted, keep it living through the grind by buying goods it needed, taking it to the PvP fields where your guild "owned" territory, and buying new equipment from the crafters, and in turn collecting their resources. No other game does this.
And I'm not even talking about Skill Based vs Level Based games - the same can exist and can work in either.
Another issue is that developers really haven't tapped into the value of a gamer's market and a crafter's worth. Do you know what the number one factor for a crafter is? Decay. Not to get rich, but to keep the game in a never-"ending" cycle. The mere fact that items decay, automatically promotes rebirth in everything. New armor, new weapons, new tools, new consumables, new reason to keep playing.
SWG (and I hate to go back to this game) had it right on this front. The game, in all of it's problems, simply did not have an ending. Why? Because first of all, you had tight communities brought together by common causes that mattered - in the game. You also weren't stuck with a single character template (hello - rebirth). Your whole objective was to get the "class" you wanted, keep it living through the grind by buying goods it needed, taking it to the PvP fields where your guild "owned" territory, and buying new equipment from the crafters, and in turn collecting their resources. No other game does this.
And I'm not even talking about Skill Based vs Level Based games - the same can exist and can work in either.
We need someone to make this sort of game again...
Another issue is that developers really haven't tapped into the value of a gamer's market and a crafter's worth. Do you know what the number one factor for a crafter is? Decay. Not to get rich, but to keep the game in a never-"ending" cycle. The mere fact that items decay, automatically promotes rebirth in everything. New armor, new weapons, new tools, new consumables, new reason to keep playing.
SWG (and I hate to go back to this game) had it right on this front. The game, in all of it's problems, simply did not have an ending. Why? Because first of all, you had tight communities brought together by common causes that mattered - in the game. You also weren't stuck with a single character template (hello - rebirth). Your whole objective was to get the "class" you wanted, keep it living through the grind by buying goods it needed, taking it to the PvP fields where your guild "owned" territory, and buying new equipment from the crafters, and in turn collecting their resources. No other game does this.
And I'm not even talking about Skill Based vs Level Based games - the same can exist and can work in either.
Never ending cycle is BORING. You do the same thing again and again. It is much better to have good content, finish it and move onto the next game (or the expansion).
Comments
That's the thing, when you see games break the mold, they don't generate much hype and usually people don't like them. AoC had lots of hype before it came out? Why? Because it had innovations of improvements on existing material used. I am all for breaking the mold, but I have spent countless of hours trying too and not sure you can because there is a massive risk factor with in the publishers.
I understand it is risky business, but if we wanted to play WoW, it is there, we can play it. Why would we want to play a WoW clone? If there's nothing different about your game, why should we pay to do the same thing in a different setting?
Also, I understand that AoC was ultra linear, ultra instanced, and bug ridden. I never played, so this could be incorrect IDK from firsthand experience. There might be more to it than just "they tried something new and failed". Did you work on AoC some? It has good graphics i hear.
If nobody tries anything new we will get more of what we have been getting - mediocrity. You will never have a smash hit if you copycat. I'm not usually one for predicting, but I'm going to say that in the next 3 to 4 years somebody is going to come out with an MMO game that is really different. This game will be an amazing success, and it will be totally unlike WoW.
That is my hope anyway...
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Do not compare apples with oranges. EVE is a pvp game. The endgame is pvp. Remove the pvp element from EVE and see how fun a game it becomes. A PVE game like EQ2, Vanguard or EQ, have to have a different kind of endgame. Beating extremely difficult raid encounters, farming for loot to be able to beat said encounters, and doing longass quests.
And don't compare WoW with the majority of MMO's out there. Not all of the games are as easy as it is. EQ2's Shadow odyssey released 3 months ago, and in that time only 1 out of the 4 raid zones has been cleared. And only a couple of guilds have managed to clear that zone in each server (if that many). For some games, beating endgame content is still a challenge and means something.
EVE has NO ENDGAME. You never maxout, ever. There is no end goal period.
That's the thing, when you see games break the mold, they don't generate much hype and usually people don't like them. AoC had lots of hype before it came out? Why? Because it had innovations of improvements on existing material used. I am all for breaking the mold, but I have spent countless of hours trying too and not sure you can because there is a massive risk factor with in the publishers.
I understand it is risky business, but if we wanted to play WoW, it is there, we can play it. Why would we want to play a WoW clone? If there's nothing different about your game, why should we pay to do the same thing in a different setting?
Also, I understand that AoC was ultra linear, ultra instanced, and bug ridden. I never played, so this could be incorrect IDK from firsthand experience. There might be more to it than just "they tried something new and failed". Did you work on AoC some? It has good graphics i hear.
If nobody tries anything new we will get more of what we have been getting - mediocrity. You will never have a smash hit if you copycat. I'm not usually one for predicting, but I'm going to say that in the next 3 to 4 years somebody is going to come out with an MMO game that is really different. This game will be an amazing success, and it will be totally unlike WoW.
That is my hope anyway...
Well, you are right, most games do copy wow to try and generate that million dollor revenue. However, if you remember my game thread, mine had alot of different aspects than WoW. I refuse to make a WoW clone. I took alot of the good aspects from EQ. I am trying to set a class game with freedom, which may sound efffed up, but I think I can pull it off. I will be reposting take 2 on that thread. The layout on that thing was awful. But no, I had alot of different aspects which would use strategic avanues for characters with out limations on class. Anyways...
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Do not compare apples with oranges. EVE is a pvp game. The endgame is pvp. Remove the pvp element from EVE and see how fun a game it becomes. A PVE game like EQ2, Vanguard or EQ, have to have a different kind of endgame. Beating extremely difficult raid encounters, farming for loot to be able to beat said encounters, and doing longass quests.
And don't compare WoW with the majority of MMO's out there. Not all of the games are as easy as it is. EQ2's Shadow odyssey released 3 months ago, and in that time only 1 out of the 4 raid zones has been cleared. And only a couple of guilds have managed to clear that zone in each server (if that many). For some games, beating endgame content is still a challenge and means something.
EVE has NO ENDGAME. You never maxout, ever. There is no end goal period.
Yeah, the only one I know of =D
I am going to defend the old school gamers. EverQuest did make the journey fun. It was fun because I was learning the ins and outs of my class, what to do in a group and what not to do, what it takes to be a good player and not. It also taught us how to have a sucessful community that WoW will never have. Obviously WoW was your first mmo. Like someone said before, about the blank staire because EQ and UO didn't market as well or enough as blizzard did. I found my class and time on WoW as a job more than EQ. As an mmo vet my self, WoW takes out the MMO. It's only there at end game. So your telling us that WoW isn't tedious and reptivite? EQ did have quests, but not much. You had to explore and earn for those quests. Thre was no stupid yellow ! over an NPC's head. Sorry, I don't like my hand being held at every thing I do, unless there is a cute women to do it! lol
WOW would actually be my, 5th or 6th or 15th MMO;) How many MMOs have released since UO? I've played them all=) WOW was more of a job than EQ? Talk about rose colored goggles buddy. WOW actually made the journey of leveling up FUN. Thats why millions are playing it. There was no journey in EQ. It was all a big grind. No stories. Just lots of waiting around. YOu thought it was fun because you never did anything like it before and you had VERY little to compare it to. WOW was repetitive but EQ wasn't? You've got major nostolgia sickness. Remember it rots your brain;)
Stick EQ in its original state vs WOW in its original state and put it in front of 100 gamers who never saw a MMO before. Just GUESS which one will seem more tedious and less fun for 99 of them. Just guess? Your fond memories of EQ are there because it was YOUR first. If you actually look at the games objectively, its not hard to understand how many imporvements Blizzard made. If you can't see it, clean off the goggles.
You ever wonder why Vangaurd didn't sell a few million copies? It resembled the original EQ....tedium, unintiuititve, broken, bugs and all.
I am going to defend the old school gamers. EverQuest did make the journey fun. It was fun because I was learning the ins and outs of my class, what to do in a group and what not to do, what it takes to be a good player and not. It also taught us how to have a sucessful community that WoW will never have. Obviously WoW was your first mmo. Like someone said before, about the blank staire because EQ and UO didn't market as well or enough as blizzard did. I found my class and time on WoW as a job more than EQ. As an mmo vet my self, WoW takes out the MMO. It's only there at end game. So your telling us that WoW isn't tedious and reptivite? EQ did have quests, but not much. You had to explore and earn for those quests. Thre was no stupid yellow ! over an NPC's head. Sorry, I don't like my hand being held at every thing I do, unless there is a cute women to do it! lol
WOW would actually be my, 5th or 6th or 15th MMO;) How many MMOs have released since UO? I've played them all=) WOW was more of a job than EQ? Talk about rose colored goggles buddy. WOW actually made the journey of leveling up FUN. Thats why millions are playing it. There was no journey in EQ. It was all a big grind. No stories. Just lots of waiting around. YOu thought it was fun because you never did anything like it before and you had VERY little to compare it to. WOW was repetitive but EQ wasn't? You've got major nostolgia sickness. Remember it rots your brain;)
Stick EQ in its original state vs WOW in its original state and put it in front of 100 gamers who never saw a MMO before. Just GUESS which one will seem more tedious and less fun for 99 of them. Just guess? Your fond memories of EQ are there because it was YOUR first. If you actually look at the games objectively, its not hard to understand how many imporvements Blizzard made. If you can't see it, clean off the goggles.
You ever wonder why Vangaurd didn't sell a few million copies? It resembled the original EQ....tedium, unintiuititve, broken, bugs and all.
Your one of those gamers who likes to have his hand held. Look, WoW is like McDonalds, just because it serves millions doens't mean it still satisfies you. Just because they sell millions DOES not mean its good for you/good quallity game. Sorry, you never cut it in EQ. If you can comprehend what I wrote, I said both have grinds. WoW is not fun at all. I can barely tolerate it with real life friends. Vanguard didn't sell well because they lost funding. I don't own any goggles sir, I see things very clearly. WoW did make some minor improvements, its the same thing as EQ but dumbed down for players like you. EQ was about community, do you understand what an mmo means? massive MULTIPLAYER online. I would rather play with 100 good players than 10000 horrible, rude idiots who think they know what an mmo is. They all have a reptivive grind. WoW doesn't start till end game anyways. Anyone can tell you that. Who really thinks the journey was fun? It had it's moments but still wont compete with EQ because I'd rather see a living community than playing alone to max level. I would rather explore places and meet new people and help someone along the way. So please, I have explained my self why I think EQ had a fun journey, why is WoW so fun for the journey?
eve, uo, old swg, others.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Do not compare apples with oranges. EVE is a pvp game. The endgame is pvp. Remove the pvp element from EVE and see how fun a game it becomes. A PVE game like EQ2, Vanguard or EQ, have to have a different kind of endgame. Beating extremely difficult raid encounters, farming for loot to be able to beat said encounters, and doing longass quests.
are uo, pre-cu swg, and COH also pvp games? not really seeing an endgame in those OR eve.
if pvp is endgame for eve, um, it's also start and middle game in eve.
take away the pvp from a game that STATES unequivocally that it is a pvp game, is sorta like taking the pve out of eq2 or wow... it makes no sense, and it can't be used in a logical, reasonable debate BECAUSE it makes no sense.
fact is, not all games REQUIRE "end game" grinding in order to have a feel of progression.
true story.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
"WoW doesn't start till end game" is just BS that 'hardcore' raiders have been brainwashing people with. WoW's endgame is kinda blah. The fun part is the journey there. Every time I level a new character I find new stuff to do and new ways to play through old content. You'll meet new people, share information and can play in a relaxed manner. I never get people who race to max level since they are giving up the interesting stuff for a repetetive gear grind. RPGs are about progression, about a sense of growth, about evolving your character. The early and middle game are like an extended childhood where you get to try new stuff and lean along the way. The 'endgame' is where the basic paths of progression and growth end and you have to 'grow up' and replace that sense of adventure with serious playing.
I believe the trick about EvE is that things get destroyed. Which is good for the market. Which in turn is good for the miners. And the producers, and the sellers and the pirates. Sure, PvP is the driving force behind this. Yet it is very possible for any player to not participate in PvP if he/she doesn't want to.
The real culprit with most MMORPGs is their static and linear nature, given and defined by the developers, not the players. Why can't players tell or make up a story? Let them build areas, buildings, castles and so on. Make MMORPGs true virtual worlds. You say this is not possible? Ever heard about Love? It's a one man MMORPG project. If one man can get that far a proper game studio should be able to get way further.
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Eve really is NOT a good example of success. They never go beyond niche.
Because 99% of the players have no idea of how to tell a story, how to build an interesting area and essentially will produce crap. Remember the horribly ghetto in UO?
MMORPGs are GAMES (that is what the 'G' stands for). Worlds are boring. Make them into good games and people will play.
And current MMORPGs are really not static. You can always wait for content patches & expansion to have more to do. Nothing last forever. A game with content to last for a few months ia a big win.
Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".
By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.
Eve really is NOT a good example of success. They never go beyond niche.
Catering to a Niche market and having 250k+ subs isnt successful?
I don't know, I consider any game that has done nothing but grown population wise every year for the last five years a success.
CCP is well off, hell the guys are making another MMO and a FPS game.
WoW is a freak of nature don't think the only game on the market that's successful is the one with 11 million players that's not normal for a mmo. Lotro,WAR,EQ2, Vanguard, AoC all have around 100-200k subs I consider a space game sandbox with extreme death penalty and a Learning cliff a success with almost 300k subs also its the only game out of those that has an increasing playerbase.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
That's the thing, when you see games break the mold, they don't generate much hype and usually people don't like them. AoC had lots of hype before it came out? Why? Because it had innovations of improvements on existing material used. I am all for breaking the mold, but I have spent countless of hours trying too and not sure you can because there is a massive risk factor with in the publishers.
I understand it is risky business, but if we wanted to play WoW, it is there, we can play it. Why would we want to play a WoW clone? If there's nothing different about your game, why should we pay to do the same thing in a different setting?
Also, I understand that AoC was ultra linear, ultra instanced, and bug ridden. I never played, so this could be incorrect IDK from firsthand experience. There might be more to it than just "they tried something new and failed". Did you work on AoC some? It has good graphics i hear.
If nobody tries anything new we will get more of what we have been getting - mediocrity. You will never have a smash hit if you copycat. I'm not usually one for predicting, but I'm going to say that in the next 3 to 4 years somebody is going to come out with an MMO game that is really different. This game will be an amazing success, and it will be totally unlike WoW.
That is my hope anyway...
Well, you are right, most games do copy wow to try and generate that million dollor revenue. However, if you remember my game thread, mine had alot of different aspects than WoW. I refuse to make a WoW clone. I took alot of the good aspects from EQ. I am trying to set a class game with freedom, which may sound efffed up, but I think I can pull it off. I will be reposting take 2 on that thread. The layout on that thing was awful. But no, I had alot of different aspects which would use strategic avanues for characters with out limations on class. Anyways...
I remember you!
I tend to agree with Abraham on this, however, I think there is a little more to it than that.
First of all, there is a major increase in power between levels, because (and we all know it) that there are hidden advantages to being a higher level. For instance in WoW, when you open up your Passive Abilities list, you see your dodge and block and all that - well, in practice, those numbers are only viable against an equal level opponent, be it in PvP or PvE. What i'm saying is, that those numbers are augmented depending on the level difference of your current target. Your chance to hit a higher level MOB is reduced, and their chance to defend is increased. This is problem number one on this whole ideal.
To illustrate this - what difference does it make what your Accuracy is, if it's just going to be reduced if the mob is higher? This is even more stupid in PvP! You level up all this time to get 10% Defense, only to have it reduced to 0% because you're lvl 20 and the other player is level 80? ... Blow! THEY ALREADY HAVE HIGHER STATS!!! WHY INCREASE IT EVEN MORE??!! All this really accomplishes, is it creates a seperation of playerbase. "Look man, I like you and all... but your character sucks, so we can't party together - sorry..."
The ONLY time this would even be feasibly possible is against Boss Characters in PvE - and rightfully so... that's what makes them a "boss", a "challenge". It should be the only thing in the game that signifies "You really aren't high enough level to do this yet." It's almost like a game giving you milestones. But anyway...
Another issue on this problem is that developers only make their game at end level. I mean, they save all the "good stuff" for the last. Okay - fair enough. Except that makes everything you've done since - pointless. Nothing compares to it, thus it is obsolete. They COULD just as well put lvl 80 gear at the beginning of the game. Why? Because you can't use it for 80 levels. You constantly have something in your bank reminding you of what you are trying to accomplish.
Another issue is that developers really haven't tapped into the value of a gamer's market and a crafter's worth. Do you know what the number one factor for a crafter is? Decay. Not to get rich, but to keep the game in a never-"ending" cycle. The mere fact that items decay, automatically promotes rebirth in everything. New armor, new weapons, new tools, new consumables, new reason to keep playing.
SWG (and I hate to go back to this game) had it right on this front. The game, in all of it's problems, simply did not have an ending. Why? Because first of all, you had tight communities brought together by common causes that mattered - in the game. You also weren't stuck with a single character template (hello - rebirth). Your whole objective was to get the "class" you wanted, keep it living through the grind by buying goods it needed, taking it to the PvP fields where your guild "owned" territory, and buying new equipment from the crafters, and in turn collecting their resources. No other game does this.
And I'm not even talking about Skill Based vs Level Based games - the same can exist and can work in either.
Another issue is that developers really haven't tapped into the value of a gamer's market and a crafter's worth. Do you know what the number one factor for a crafter is? Decay. Not to get rich, but to keep the game in a never-"ending" cycle. The mere fact that items decay, automatically promotes rebirth in everything. New armor, new weapons, new tools, new consumables, new reason to keep playing.
SWG (and I hate to go back to this game) had it right on this front. The game, in all of it's problems, simply did not have an ending. Why? Because first of all, you had tight communities brought together by common causes that mattered - in the game. You also weren't stuck with a single character template (hello - rebirth). Your whole objective was to get the "class" you wanted, keep it living through the grind by buying goods it needed, taking it to the PvP fields where your guild "owned" territory, and buying new equipment from the crafters, and in turn collecting their resources. No other game does this.
And I'm not even talking about Skill Based vs Level Based games - the same can exist and can work in either.
We need someone to make this sort of game again...
Another issue is that developers really haven't tapped into the value of a gamer's market and a crafter's worth. Do you know what the number one factor for a crafter is? Decay. Not to get rich, but to keep the game in a never-"ending" cycle. The mere fact that items decay, automatically promotes rebirth in everything. New armor, new weapons, new tools, new consumables, new reason to keep playing.
SWG (and I hate to go back to this game) had it right on this front. The game, in all of it's problems, simply did not have an ending. Why? Because first of all, you had tight communities brought together by common causes that mattered - in the game. You also weren't stuck with a single character template (hello - rebirth). Your whole objective was to get the "class" you wanted, keep it living through the grind by buying goods it needed, taking it to the PvP fields where your guild "owned" territory, and buying new equipment from the crafters, and in turn collecting their resources. No other game does this.
And I'm not even talking about Skill Based vs Level Based games - the same can exist and can work in either.
Never ending cycle is BORING. You do the same thing again and again. It is much better to have good content, finish it and move onto the next game (or the expansion).