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CLass balance and fun endgame
Grzz
Member Posts: 5
These are the two biggest issues facing WAR IMO.
Class balance issue is killer because because it simply does not permit an even playing field.
You have failed designs like the Swordmaster and every destruction players favorite fodder the Archmage. On the other hand you have alpha classes like the witchelf which kills anything it chooses at any time.
Throw in a boring endgame and you have a recipe for disaster, the city sieging is simply not fun nor enaging.
These are fundamental issues that lay at the foundation of the game, I hope they can fix it but man that seems hard to do.
Comments
i agree on the city part, but as for the class balence. they still need to work on them ... they will start nerfing destro classes before you know it.
its one thing EA mythic is known for doing from time to time,. and thats bringing out the nerf bat and start playing baseball with retarded childrens heads
i suspect order to get some big time help.
as for simple things that they have yet to do like fix issues and such like with citys .. that will be placed on the back burner for about a year or two.
I'm reinstalling the game now because there isn no other game to play.
Class balance is fine. Because the classes are not supposed to be balanced. The sides are balanced the bigest issue is that the populations are not. Destro outnumbers Order by a significant amount.
Cities need improvement in both design and performance.
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
This is a classic missinterpretation of what a true class game is supposed to be. WAR actually has pulled it off quite nicely, please let me explain. No one class is able to outright DESTROY all classes from the other side. For each class there is basically an equal but opposite on the other side. The problem is that everyone is used to the WOW mentality that there, example hunter should be able to take on a paladin or a mage and have a fighting chance against every class. In reality a Hunter should get eaten alive by a quick mage or a Paladin every time. In a true class version of WOW any undead player should be terrified to see a Paladin comming at them because they should know they are about to die a second time. This is the nature of classes, this is also why so many people have problems with WAR. Teamwork is what WAR is all about, there is no "I" in team, you need your tanks to do just that hold the line while your range takes out that line. Tanks are not to be a DPS class they are a TANKING class, there job is to take as much punishment as they can so the mage behind them can destroy whatever is in front of them. Healers are just that a HEALING class, they have a job to guess what it is, to keep your Tanks up for as long as they can, and save a ranged dps dealer if needed. A team game is what WAR is but everyone wants to be the hero and that is why they complain about this game.
Yep it's all about teamwork. Except if you're WE. Then you can solo and can only be beaten by others playing in a team.
Okay WE are a little overpowered atm but if the "fake patch notes" are anything to go by they'll be brough down to size by next patch, allowing orders tanks to do what they do best.
Class balance can be solved in different ways. One way is rock-scissor-paper where a class easily beats another but don't have a chanse against a third. Then you have the Guildwars balance where all non healers are about on the same levels.
Having classes that mirror eachothers on two sides are not really balance, not only the sides need to balance up but the classes needs to be equally useful in a group even though they don't have to do the same dps.
I think WAR do need some more work on that part, a class should be as useful as another class if you play them right, and it takes a lot of work, Guildwars is still balancing their classes even though it have the best balance in any MMO I seen.
I would agree with zantax on the class balancing issue
however, I think the biggest problem atm for WAR are the fortresses...
ok, I can understand that they were trying to fix the lag first, but now that they have done that, they should fix fortress DESIGN, so it's not a thing of 600 players on both sides clashing on the stairs where 3 players can barely stand one beside another and it's absolutely not possible to take it unless one side outnumbers the other heavily
you've made a very good point about the classes that i agree with but i do think that in solo play people should be able to have a fair chance against eachother.
As someone who plays Destro and has a Chosen and a Witch Elf, the comments about Witch Elfs being able to destroy anyone anytime they chose it utter bullshit. Iron Breakers are far more overpowered then a Witch Elf, but its ok, Order has less players then Destro. Witch Elf will beat most squishies 1 on 1, die quick against a tank and die even quicker if ganged up upon. People crying about Witch Elfs are probably the ones caught alone on the way to a BO and got picked off and are crying becuase they missed out on their 500rp and 105inf.
LOL Some of us play both sides you know.'Die even quicker if ganged up upon' that says it all about everyone else has to play as a team and they play solo.
It looks a bit like they'll go the wow route of "class balancing" - 2 classes get a month or 2 in the sun as the current "overpowered class" to inspire people to make alts and increase sub longevity without any intention of actually settling on a final "balance". Then, 2 other classes get their time to shine..repeat over and over without actually making anything balanced - you just have to wait until it's your classes month to shine. It's been the cycle since that game launched.
There's no question to anyone unbiased that has played multiple classes across both realms that some classes are hands down more effective than others. It's not even a question of "if" some are, ofcourse they are, it's a matter of how powerful they are in comparison to others.
WAR wasn't designed around a 1v1 playing field, that's understandable, the focus is on a team of various classes working together and bringing something to the team. Some classes just happen to bring a LOT more to the field and other classes wouldn't be missed at all. Some of their balance decisions just left me scratching my head, they must have known certain abilities would be absurdly powerful and obviously unbalanced, but they left them in anyway...for now, until enough people have rerolled as fotm class. Then it'll be another 2-3 classes turn.
This game will never be balanced. You just have to hope the degree of imbalance and frustration isn't enough to drive people away.
Why nerf Dest classes?
Lets see ( and you can check Warhammeralliance.com to see this is not just my opinion )
Best main tank ingame and with best CCs, IronBreaker (Order)
Best main healer ingame today RunePriest (Order)
Best ranged DPS today BW (Order)
The WH WE dilema is almost over as a lot of WH are expressing themselves as on par with WE, WH has better CC, WE has higher DPS, but SM, IB, WP and Kotbs can solo a WE without much trouble.
In most cases a WP has better performance than a DoK
In most cases a SM will kill a BG (they are role mirrors not mechanic mirrors)
I dont see any of these classes as OP and the superiority of this classes is not exacly huge, just a small advantage, but after analizing this, can you tell me wich Dest should be nerfed?
People that play both sides know Im telling the truth, as I said, just check WHA.
In RP servers Order sometimes has more players than Destruction, in some servers Dest is more populated, but there is not a general rule anymore.
Balance is not the main issue, performance, content and too many empty servers are REAL issues.
Some classes can use some love, Chosen, Magus, S.Warrior, S.Master, but you can find "weak" classes(this is questionable) in both sides.
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I hated WEs and thought they were overpowered and unbalancing, until I took the time to study my SW's abilities closely. After doing that (I was in my 20s by then), I discovered that I had 2 skills that evened the playing field with WEs somewhat, and gave me a fighting chance. The first is Whirling Pin, which is an AoE root. Quickly follow that with Opportunistic Strike (Disarm), and you can just see the WE saying "Oh, Crap!".
I think if those players who are complaining about unbalanced classes would take the time to study their class (yes, to play WAR well takes some thinking, unlike WoW), they just might find their class is stronger than they think it is. Get to know your toon, it will be rewarding.
Ion
EDIT: Drats! I clicked on the wrong reply button. This was to be in response to sallan75's post above.
However, now that I am here, I agree with Jexster. Games do need consequences and WAR doesn't really have any. It's not a game breaker for me, but if consequences existed, it would make the game more fun.
Yes I dont see the Iron Breaker as a OP class, but it is by far one of the most powerful.
I really belive IB will suffer some kind of nerf soon, because the class is an issue to both sides (Dest and Order)
Today a SM and a Kotbs are subpar tanks if we compare to IBs in pve, so there are of course a lot of Chosens and BGs a bit upset with the IB superiority, but there are A LOT of SM and Kotbs in the order side even more upset as they are just not usefull as MT anymore.
When a tank has superior defense, superior damage output (with full grudge) and superior CC than every other tank, well, it is when something need to change.
Personally I think a boost in the weaker side is always better than a nerf in the stronger side.
But again, content, performance and empty servers are the main issues in my opinion.
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Yes I dont see the Iron Breaker as a OP class, but it is by far one of the most powerful.
I really belive IB will suffer some kind of nerf soon, because the class is an issue to both sides (Dest and Order)
Today a SM and a Kotbs are subpar tanks if we compare to IBs in pve, so there are of course a lot of Chosens and BGs a bit upset with the IB superiority, but there are A LOT of SM and Kotbs in the order side even more upset as they are just not usefull as MT anymore.
When a tank has superior defense, superior damage output (with full grudge) and superior CC than every other tank, well, it is when something need to change.
Personally I think a boost in the weaker side is always better than a nerf in the stronger side.
But again, content, performance and empty servers are the main issues in my opinion.
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Order has the slighlty better end of the stick with most classes. But IB is a really tough proposition solo or when grouped. There is nothing more deflating then on my Chosen and using my DoT's and Bane Shield and then watch them use Grumble an' Mutter and heal themselves or hit full grudge and watch them destroy you like your Heavy Armour turmed into wet newspaper. They have far more usefulness then any other tank in the game.
I have a feeling that people will still play this game, just because of the fact so many people are gameless.
LOL Some of us play both sides you know.'Die even quicker if ganged up upon' that says it all about everyone else has to play as a team and they play solo.
Witch Elf is suppose to play like that. Pick off the straglers or the one isolated from the herd. Without high DPS and stealth, what would be the point to a WE? They die quicker then a clothy, they only get a snare using the throwing dagger on a target if its running away, without that burst of DPS, WE would not be able to kill anyone since they have no real CC.
LOL Some of us play both sides you know.'Die even quicker if ganged up upon' that says it all about everyone else has to play as a team and they play solo.
Witch Elf is suppose to play like that. Pick off the straglers or the one isolated from the herd. Without high DPS and stealth, what would be the point to a WE? They die quicker then a clothy, they only get a snare using the throwing dagger on a target if its running away, without that burst of DPS, WE would not be able to kill anyone since they have no real CC.
I guess so. I never really understood their need in a team game. I do notice that even if they aren't OPed their reputation means they get targeted now by everyone as they all panic as soon as they see one. It must make life harder.
The IB is a powerful class, but to say that order has the more powerful overall is nonsense, furthermore, citing Warhammer Alliance which is known for it's destruction bias (most of the mods unabashedly display destruction career tags in their avatars) as a source for this material is not solid.
Order has more failed classes than destro:
The AM -which it is still being determined is this is a result of bad design or over the top overpowered WE abilities.
The SM- which simply has no true role and is disappearing from the game, SM has been referred to as a harmless "light show" in other forums by destruction players.
The SW- which again can be a result of the over the top witchelf.
You will find a vast majority of players view the AM as the worst class in the game overall, I personally think it is the SM simply because the AM can heal and the SW does have ranged attacks, the SM essentially wastes space.
Every server is dominated by destro which has much higher populations which is indeed attributed to more developer attention to this faction, it is simply more attractive to players.
AND someone recently posted (VN forums) stat comparisons on all bloodfist weapons for both factions and every single one of the destro weapons had higher stat bonuses. It is there plain to see and indisputable.
The witchelf is purely overpowered there is little debate, the WE can down tanks as easily as she can down clothies, suffering no counter class, with the exception of a large zerg situation.
The WE argument here is that 1v1 does not matter in the game but it is essential for the WE to preserve 1v1 dominance, it simply does not make sense.
I put it up for further amusement.
dont you guys know? SIDES ARE PERFECTLY BALANCED!
Mythic released the figures and its exact %50 to %50. There is no balance issue whatsoever. But somehow I still dont know why 1 order warband is ganked by 3 destro warbands in most of the servers... Is it because all Order players dance naked in altdorf?
And it seems you are a destro player with a lot of bias toward order classes..see what I did there?
Order may have the best tank I do concede that. Your mild assessment of WEs is laughable they do change the course of the battle single handedly here is why:
WEs kill AMs so quickly that they are considered the worst class and a failed class. Your own Warhammer Alliance forum is a testament to this as well as the VN forum. To say they are anything but is a diservice to them and to players planning to purhase the game. WEs eliminate AMs so much and so quickly one could almost deem it a denial of service, making this class infrequent and unplayable
WEs have made the prospect of a tank using a 2h weapon or speccing in any other tree except the high defense trees simply not viable. Now you might argue that is the way a tank should be played, it eliminates player choice. The OP nature of the WE forces order players into one path if that is not OP nothing is
SWs? please, second most slaughtered class to the WE these guys live perhaps one second longer than AMs, making them undesirable as well.
This idea that the WH causes as much havoc in the ranks as the WE is absolutely ridiculous.
Ask any WE how threatened they feel by any KoTBS or Swordmaster, then ask any BO how threatened he feels by a WH, and yes I have seen many WEs brag about how the smoke IBs, you simply close your eyes to it.
Most WEs on the forum state that they feel the WE "deserves 1v1 absolute dominance" because they die often in zergs! Talk about wrecking a game for your own benefit.
Hey I know the solution every orer player can roll IBs then it will be good after all the WE is not OP and players don't have to be forced into certain play parameters to counter them.
It is also funny that you are obviously a destro player and accuse me of bias etc and you simply display an extreme amount of bias from the other side.
If you like playing in a faction that has every advantage thats your choice, I hope for the sake of the game Mythic does something about it.
PS
Very convenient to leave the Bloodfist stat disparity out of your rebuttal.
I think the swordmaster is a very formidable opponent when it is played correctly.
I also agree with Zantax, this game is about Teamwork. There is no solo dimension to it.
the game is not meant to be, but frequently is, pugged, you are supposed to have premades against each other.
I submit that if you have an entire scenario of just 2 premades, 1 full Dest, and 1 full Order, there would be a close game.
General imbalance, I think, is a perception of players who PUG and get under performing players of intendedly powerful and useful classes.