I know exactly where it came from. There was a HoC Chat with the devs sometime into the NGE and a question was asked about allowing the old FRS jedi to let us have our titles (Like Elder Jedi Knight since it was a quest reward title that we earned etc etc etc) and the reply was that they couldn't do it because they lost all that information and so it was impossible to tell who exactly was a FRS jedi and who wasn't. Many took this as them saying they lost the code, which of course is not true.
I don't think I can link directly to the sites but do a search for Biophilia's Scrapbook. It has a bunch of dev quotes archived prior to when the old boards were taken down. And it includes all of smed's quotes.. or at least all of smed's quotes that weren't deleted by the time the archive was made. Here's what I've found in the scrapbook:
(helios 11/8/06)
Creature Handler and Bio Engineer will not be returning to SWG. The code for those profession is imcompatible with this version of SWG. If Creature Handler gameplay is to return to the game, most of those system will need to be re-written....
(smed 11/25/05)
Unfortunately we also can't put up a pre-NGE (or PRE-CU) version of SWG. That would require us to support 2 separate versions of the codebase and we're just not able to do that. We couldn't simply put up a version like this unsupported.. what if someone found a really bad exploit?
both allude to having the code. Couldn't find a quote saying they didn't have it, although quotes were deleted all the time on that forum. The quote from smed was only 10 days after the NGE went live, but what kunoulovesme said is mildly familiar to me. I can't say that didn't happen.
It is also stated in the infamous drunken "Om-nom-nom" blog by whatever damn programmer posted it, (before the moron sobered up and edited it) that SOE was maintaining both sets of code for the 6 weeks after the NGE. I am sure there is an unedited version of in here somewhere.
It was never about lost code or "couldn't" do a roll back or pre-cu server, it is that the arrogant waste of skin, known as Smed, could not bring himself to admitting a mistake or trying to fix it.
Which is incidentally why many vets (of which I am one) still hold a grudge against Smed et al: the absolute and total disrespect he/they had for their paying customers.
I think all the HoC chats are still around, so that quote should be easy to find. I'm too lazy atm.
Originally posted by Burntvet
It is also stated in the infamous drunken "Om-nom-nom" blog by whatever damn programmer posted it, (before the moron sobered up and edited it) that SOE was maintaining both sets of code for the 6 weeks after the NGE. I am sure there is an unedited version of in here somewhere. It was never about lost code or "couldn't" do a roll back or pre-cu server, it is that the arrogant waste of skin, known as Smed, could not bring himself to admitting a mistake or trying to fix it. Which is incidentally why many vets (of which I am one) still hold a grudge against Smed et al: the absolute and total disrespect he/they had for their paying customers.
I have a copy of the original text. It says:
"If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch Ive ever done.
We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.
We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation."
I have seen people on this forum and others that Smedley and other SOE DEVs have said that they lost the code to pre-CU/NGE and that is why they couldn't roll back or open classic servers. I never saw anyone official say that. Did anyone save these very important quotes? Any info on this would be helpful, especially any links and/or well referenced quotes. Thanks in advance.
That is not true, lucas arts just said your not using my intellectual property anymore. I think you are reading far too deep into this.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Forget about SoE. Even if they did bring back a Pre-CU forum, that's like an abused wife going back to her husband after she gets her ear cut off. Its just asking for more.
All we can do for Pre-CU is hope the emulation scene gets their act together. Although at this rate, they'll be releasing a working version of SWG Emu about the same time that Darkfall is released.
I have seen people on this forum and others that Smedley and other SOE DEVs have said that they lost the code to pre-CU/NGE and that is why they couldn't roll back or open classic servers. I never saw anyone official say that. Did anyone save these very important quotes? Any info on this would be helpful, especially any links and/or well referenced quotes. Thanks in advance.
That is not true, lucas arts just said your not using my intellectual property anymore. I think you are reading far too deep into this.
Do you have evidence to support this position? What exactly does it have to do with what I am asking about?
I'm not reading anything into anything. I made an observation of what people have said on these and other forums and am questioning it.
well all i could find is this, and in it he says :
"That other lesson is the infamous "New Game Experience" the team put into Star Wars Galaxies in 2005. On that, he was completely frank.
"With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made," he told us. "We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have, and it's not a mistake we're going to make again."
The NGE completely altered Star Wars Galaxies, a game that had launched in cooperation with LucasArts over two years before. Classes disappeared and the game fundamentally changed in almost every way. It came as no surprise to observers that this change was massively unpopular among the playerbase.
And what was the mistake SOE made that Smedley is sorry for?
"[The mistake was] to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix," he explained. "We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming and we were wrong."
He went on to point out that after two years, the game is once again stable and growing. They continue to update the game with new content and those fans, old and new, who enjoy the current incarnation of the game are being listened to. The old game won't come back - to change now would be as unfair as the first time they did it - but he believes SWG still has a solid future."
As i looked around to see if they said they lost it couldn't find anything, but from reading that sounds like they could go back but aren't going to, so that tells me they still have it, imo.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
well all i could find is this, and in it he says : "That other lesson is the infamous "New Game Experience" the team put into Star Wars Galaxies in 2005. On that, he was completely frank. "With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made," he told us. "We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have, and it's not a mistake we're going to make again." The NGE completely altered Star Wars Galaxies, a game that had launched in cooperation with LucasArts over two years before. Classes disappeared and the game fundamentally changed in almost every way. It came as no surprise to observers that this change was massively unpopular among the playerbase. And what was the mistake SOE made that Smedley is sorry for? "[The mistake was] to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix," he explained. "We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming and we were wrong." He went on to point out that after two years, the game is once again stable and growing. They continue to update the game with new content and those fans, old and new, who enjoy the current incarnation of the game are being listened to. The old game won't come back - to change now would be as unfair as the first time they did it - but he believes SWG still has a solid future."
As i looked around to see if they said they lost it couldn't find anything, but from reading that sounds like they could go back but aren't going to, so that tells me they still have it, imo.
Yup that jives with everything I've seen on the subject.
well all i could find is this, and in it he says : "That other lesson is the infamous "New Game Experience" the team put into Star Wars Galaxies in 2005. On that, he was completely frank. "With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made," he told us. "We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have, and it's not a mistake we're going to make again." The NGE completely altered Star Wars Galaxies, a game that had launched in cooperation with LucasArts over two years before. Classes disappeared and the game fundamentally changed in almost every way. It came as no surprise to observers that this change was massively unpopular among the playerbase. And what was the mistake SOE made that Smedley is sorry for? "[The mistake was] to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix," he explained. "We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming and we were wrong." He went on to point out that after two years, the game is once again stable and growing. They continue to update the game with new content and those fans, old and new, who enjoy the current incarnation of the game are being listened to. The old game won't come back - to change now would be as unfair as the first time they did it - but he believes SWG still has a solid future."
As i looked around to see if they said they lost it couldn't find anything, but from reading that sounds like they could go back but aren't going to, so that tells me they still have it, imo.
Yup that jives with everything I've seen on the subject.
Although Smed will always be akin to a used car salesman in my book I do applaud them for not screwing over their current player base even though I would never trust what they say...ever...however...that is not an apology for doing the NGE but an apology for not communicating that they were doing it. Big difference IMHO.
I wonder if they consider it stable and growing now?
well all i could find is this, and in it he says : "That other lesson is the infamous "New Game Experience" the team put into Star Wars Galaxies in 2005. On that, he was completely frank. "With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made," he told us. "We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have, and it's not a mistake we're going to make again." The NGE completely altered Star Wars Galaxies, a game that had launched in cooperation with LucasArts over two years before. Classes disappeared and the game fundamentally changed in almost every way. It came as no surprise to observers that this change was massively unpopular among the playerbase. And what was the mistake SOE made that Smedley is sorry for? "[The mistake was] to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix," he explained. "We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming and we were wrong." He went on to point out that after two years, the game is once again stable and growing. They continue to update the game with new content and those fans, old and new, who enjoy the current incarnation of the game are being listened to. The old game won't come back - to change now would be as unfair as the first time they did it - but he believes SWG still has a solid future."
As i looked around to see if they said they lost it couldn't find anything, but from reading that sounds like they could go back but aren't going to, so that tells me they still have it, imo.
Yup that jives with everything I've seen on the subject.
Although Smed will always be akin to a used car salesman in my book I do applaud them for not screwing over their current player base even though I would never trust what they say...ever...however...that is not an apology for doing the NGE but an apology for not communicating that they were doing it. Big difference IMHO.
I wonder if they consider it stable and growing now?
Plus nothing there stops them from putting up classic servers. They can make the false claim that they can't afford to support two games, but they can -- station pass has them supporting several games, and of course the idea would be that any classic server would be either paid for with its own subscription or a part of station pass, like everything else.
No, the reason they don't do what vets want is it would prove they were wrong when the NGE servers died and people only played SWG Classic. Smedley can't afford to risk looking that bad.
As to not screwing ther player base, they did continue to screw their playerbase. The GCW, the C6CD, and other bad, sweeping changes they made to the game in the wake of the NGE still shows that, not only did they apologise for the wrong thing, it showed that they were quite capable of repeating the real mistake, that of destroying players' past efforts in a persistent world gaming environment, even if they would never repeat the degree.
Stable and growing now? I would say stable, but not growing.
Other than them compounding their own code problem by consolidating servers...LOL stable would be questionable on the high pops.
yeah, the lag is really bad now. It was always a problem but for many people the game is unplayable in a whole new way! Aside from the crappy UI and the bugs, that is!
Going Pre NGE would be admitting a mistake and as we see Corporations and Governments don't do that.
Corporations and governments admit to mistakes all the time (Coke, Ford, GE, President Bush, President Clinton, various governors). SOE does as well. Smedley jsut won't admit to a mistake that might cost HIM his job.
He even already admits to miscommunication, because that wasn't HIS doing.
If they "lost" the code, then SOE are completely unqualified to run so much as a company's internal IT shop, much less a software publisher. Of course, as we all know they've proven themselves this unqualifed OR WORSE in the past. Example: The rollbacks of Bloodfin and Chimaera of days to weeks on CU day BECAUSE THE MORONS DID A MAJOR DATABASE MIGRATION WITHOUT A CURRENT BACKUP! That right there would get most any IT admin fired, especially with the data loss involving not just company, but CUSTOMER data, but was done without so much as even a promise to "communicate better" which means SOE didn't even really acknowledge it as a problem. The word that best describes SOE's operations: shoddy. The same will happen with their new MMO's in development, which will lead to thier failure. They won't deal with those games differently than they do with their existing ones. Leopards don't change their spots. SOE's problem is company CULTURAL. As in, their company does not promote a culture of quality, productivity, and customer satisfaction, but rather the opposite.
Dead on right there, so many of the things SOE has done have turned out below industry standards so much it just boggles my mind, I've talked about this company wide epidemic myself and it is just amazing that they get away with the things they do without someone considering that the guys at the top aren't the right people for the job. My hope is thta that changes someday because in the long run gamers are the ones who really suffer because they seem to be able to turn a meager profit doing the things they do and a company with the backing that they have should be doing alot more to move the genre forward as opposed to taking it back as they do by setting the example to smaller companies that it is ok to practice business the way they do.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I have seen people on this forum and others that Smedley and other SOE DEVs have said that they lost the code to pre-CU/NGE and that is why they couldn't roll back or open classic servers. I never saw anyone official say that. Did anyone save these very important quotes? Any info on this would be helpful, especially any links and/or well referenced quotes. Thanks in advance.
Hi Fisher. I'm aware of a few pieces of information that I think people interpreted to mean that SOE "lost the code."
Here's what I read, and I'll putz around a bit to see if I can dig it up again. If I start getting eyestrain all bets are off though lol.
When LEC (not SOE btw) was asked about a rollback shortly after the NGE, their rep at the time (forget who it was at that moment) said that they were unable to roll-back due to "technical reasons."
More recently when asked to make improvements to JTL, one of the developers (again I forget which one, but I'm thinking it was Blix or Deadmeat) said that they did not understand the JTL code, and had no documentation on it; so the new dev team had to reverse engineer it.
Another SOE dev was reported to say that rollback to CU was technically feasible, but rollback to pre-cu was not. Again, I read the quote, the dev was referenced at the time, but this was years ago.
When asked about rollback to pre-cu, Jeff's comments were that he assumed (didn't know for sure or would not disclose) that the refusal was for business reasons.
So, as things go with SOE, there has been some ambiguity and even contradiction on this issue.
I think people came to the conclusing "we lost the code" on their own based on the disclosures about the JTL code, and the LEC reps comments that pre-cu was not technically possible. The LEC rep very clearly stated that this was not business related, but was a technical issue. If he can be trusted, it's not that much of a stretch to conclude that it is a coding problem.
For what it's worth, I think that when people like Vogel, Koster, Greenmarine and others hit the road, SOE lost the technical expertise to manage the pre-cu code. Even if they have it somewhere; it's probably like reading heiroglyphics to the newer, less experienced developers.
That's from my memory which isn't too bad usually, but like I said, I'll putz and see what I can find.
O.k. Fisher, here is the full interview with Casey Keefe of Lucas Arts, where he says that a rollback to pre-cu is not possible for technical and resource issues.
The comments you're looking for are in blue, below. "Lost the code" is probably a paraphrase that is not entirely accurate. It appears to be an oversimplification of the issues involved, though I can understand how people got this message.
My interpretation of the comments would be that they lost personnel that were familiar with the code, and they certainly did. Some quit, and others requested transfer to other assignments. One was granted. If people want to be entirely accurate though, the rollback was denied allegedly for reasons related to "technology" and "resources," and not for business reasons. That's as specific as it gets, I think.
"Casey Keefe is the Community & Press Relations Manager at LucasArts responsible for Star Wars Galaxies. Recently, Casey had a chance to answer a few of our questions about Star Wars Galaxies. These include the current state of the game, some questions on the recent NGE update and a look at what they have in store.
MMORPG.com: Tell us about Star Wars Galaxies how it stands today. What would a new player who has no experience with SWG find if they logged in today?
Casey Keefe: A new player will definitely find the game much easier to get into than before, as well as a much more compelling and story-driven adventure. We have taken a tutorial-style approach and integrated it into the first ten levels of the game, so that while the player is learning how to play, they are also leveling. For players searching for a true role-playing adventure steeped in Star Wars fiction, they have come to the right place.
MMORPG.com: Recently, server population numbers circulated online that someone allegedly uncovered. Can you comment on the accuracy of these numbers?
Casey Keefe: We never have and never will comment in regards to subscriber and player numbers.
MMORPG.com: What gameplay changes are currently on the developer’s agenda. Can you run us through some areas you plan to address – via patches – in the near future?
Casey Keefe: In addition to bug fixing and addressing other issues, the team is hard at work on introducing new content for each of the professions. You may have noticed the recent Publish 27 which added several new abilities to the Jedi profession. In addition to adding new abilities for each profession (not just Jedi), we plan on re-introducing specialization within professions via skills that will allow players to differentiate themselves more from others in the same profession.
Additionally, the team is working on bringing fresh story-driven content (missions, etc.) to the existing game as well.
MMORPG.com: You acknowledged in your last producer letter that one major flaw with the NGE’s introduction was broken content and that it was your goal to fix that. How did this happen in the first place?
Casey Keefe: No comment.
MMORPG.com: Do you have plans for another traditional expansion to SWG?
Casey Keefe: Look for announcements regarding future Galaxies projects to be coming soon.
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MMORPG.com: What message do you have to those players who quit Star Wars Galaxies after the NGE update?
Casey Keefe: After hearing the reasons why players left, we have gathered that feedback and used it in deciding future elements of the game. Even though we aren’t “rolling back” the game, we hope to re-introduce some of the older elements that players enjoyed in the context of the new direction of the game, such as what we are aiming to do with the specialization elements. Our hope is that reintroduction of these elements will draw said players back to the game.
MMORPG.com: You’ve mentioned over and over the desire to have more of a Star Wars experience. Specifically – in terms of story presentation - how do you intend to achieve this in the long run? Should players be expecting more instanced quests, more live events, more cinematics, all of the above or something entirely new?
Casey Keefe: Most likely a combination of all of the above, with an emphasis on instancing-type adventures that allows us to maximize the games technology (more on this element to come in the next few months).
MMORPG.com: We asked this before and the answer was no. However, today, I’d like to re-submit it. Are there any plans for a “classic server” that runs an older version of the game?
Casey Keefe: No, and not for business reasons – it is impossible in terms of technology and resources.
MMORPG.com: Looking forward, where do you see Star Wars Galaxies in a year?
Casey Keefe: Still going strong with an increased focus on bringing the infamous Galactic Civil War to life. One of the long-term development goals is to give players the ability to have a direct impact on this staple of Star Wars fiction and canon."
This is in the news section of these forums btw, February 2006, or late March.
O.k. Fisher, here is the full interview with Casey Keefe of Lucas Arts, where he says that a rollback to pre-cu is not possible for technical and resource issues. The comments you're looking for are in blue, below. "Lost the code" is probably a paraphrase that is not entirely accurate. It appears to be an oversimplification of the issues involved, though I can understand how people got this message. My interpretation of the comments would be that they lost personnel that were familiar with the code, and they certainly did. Some quit, and others requested transfer to other assignments. One was granted. If people want to be entirely accurate though, the rollback was denied allegedly for reasons related to "technology" and "resources," and not for business reasons. That's as specific as it gets, I think. "Casey Keefe is the Community & Press Relations Manager at LucasArts responsible for Star Wars Galaxies. Recently, Casey had a chance to answer a few of our questions about Star Wars Galaxies. These include the current state of the game, some questions on the recent NGE update and a look at what they have in store. MMORPG.com: Tell us about Star Wars Galaxies how it stands today. What would a new player who has no experience with SWG find if they logged in today? Casey Keefe: A new player will definitely find the game much easier to get into than before, as well as a much more compelling and story-driven adventure. We have taken a tutorial-style approach and integrated it into the first ten levels of the game, so that while the player is learning how to play, they are also leveling. For players searching for a true role-playing adventure steeped in Star Wars fiction, they have come to the right place. MMORPG.com: Recently, server population numbers circulated online that someone allegedly uncovered. Can you comment on the accuracy of these numbers? Casey Keefe: We never have and never will comment in regards to subscriber and player numbers. MMORPG.com: What gameplay changes are currently on the developer’s agenda. Can you run us through some areas you plan to address – via patches – in the near future? Casey Keefe: In addition to bug fixing and addressing other issues, the team is hard at work on introducing new content for each of the professions. You may have noticed the recent Publish 27 which added several new abilities to the Jedi profession. In addition to adding new abilities for each profession (not just Jedi), we plan on re-introducing specialization within professions via skills that will allow players to differentiate themselves more from others in the same profession.
Additionally, the team is working on bringing fresh story-driven content (missions, etc.) to the existing game as well. MMORPG.com: You acknowledged in your last producer letter that one major flaw with the NGE’s introduction was broken content and that it was your goal to fix that. How did this happen in the first place? Casey Keefe: No comment. MMORPG.com: Do you have plans for another traditional expansion to SWG? Casey Keefe: Look for announcements regarding future Galaxies projects to be coming soon.
advertisement MMORPG.com: What message do you have to those players who quit Star Wars Galaxies after the NGE update? Casey Keefe: After hearing the reasons why players left, we have gathered that feedback and used it in deciding future elements of the game. Even though we aren’t “rolling back” the game, we hope to re-introduce some of the older elements that players enjoyed in the context of the new direction of the game, such as what we are aiming to do with the specialization elements. Our hope is that reintroduction of these elements will draw said players back to the game. MMORPG.com: You’ve mentioned over and over the desire to have more of a Star Wars experience. Specifically – in terms of story presentation - how do you intend to achieve this in the long run? Should players be expecting more instanced quests, more live events, more cinematics, all of the above or something entirely new? Casey Keefe: Most likely a combination of all of the above, with an emphasis on instancing-type adventures that allows us to maximize the games technology (more on this element to come in the next few months). MMORPG.com: We asked this before and the answer was no. However, today, I’d like to re-submit it. Are there any plans for a “classic server” that runs an older version of the game? Casey Keefe: No, and not for business reasons – it is impossible in terms of technology and resources. MMORPG.com: Looking forward, where do you see Star Wars Galaxies in a year? Casey Keefe: Still going strong with an increased focus on bringing the infamous Galactic Civil War to life. One of the long-term development goals is to give players the ability to have a direct impact on this staple of Star Wars fiction and canon." This is in the news section of these forums btw, February 2006, or late March.
Yup, none of that even remotely implies they "lost the code," or even that they no longer have it. What is implies is that they can't afford to run one. That's BS too of course, but it certainly has nothing to do with them losing the code, as far as my reading of that goes.
Sounds like LA wouldn't pay for both games, that is why it was impossible in terms of technology and resources.
O.k. Fisher, here's the other quote from Hanse about losing devs and not having documentation on JTL code:
"The space system introduced with Jump to Lightspeed has been tweaked and fixed in small ways in the last few years. New ships were added to the system later, but the designers who added those ships are no longer with the company and their methods for adding them were not documented."
There was a similar post on the SOE boards that detailed how they had to reverse engineer the code to figure out how to work with it. I'd dig for that too, but now I am getting eyestrain lol.
I think if you read these articles, it gives a more detailed explanation of why they didn't rollback. "Lost the code" is an understandable but oversimplified paraphrase I think . I still say lost the devs that understood the code, and had no way in hell of ever getting them back was probably more accurate lol.
Oh, and I read all that too. I really have read most if not all of the comments from the DEVs.
So once again, we only have a sooper sekrit conversation where Smed supposedly said this, and the rest is conjecture from cryptic statements made that obviously imply something else.
O.k. Fisher, here's the other quote from Hanse about losing devs and not having documentation on JTL code: "The space system introduced with Jump to Lightspeed has been tweaked and fixed in small ways in the last few years. New ships were added to the system later, but the designers who added those ships are no longer with the company and their methods for adding them were not documented." Found here: http://www.warcry.com/news/view/80692-SWG-Dev-Diary-Thomas-Hanse-Eidson. There was a similar post on the SOE boards that detailed how they had to reverse engineer the code to figure out how to work with it. I'd dig for that too, but now I am getting eyestrain lol. I think if you read these articles, it gives a more detailed explanation of why they didn't rollback. "Lost the code" is an understandable but oversimplified paraphrase I think . I still say lost the devs that understood the code, and had no way in hell of ever getting them back was probably more accurate lol.
In other words they do not understand the code, which we all already know -- not that they lost the code. I;ve read all this before. None of it says nor implies they lost the code, or no longer have it. They obviously have it but can't figure it out. Those are completely different things that are barely related.
What you are saying, and I am agreeing with, is nothing like what people are saying.
O.k. Fisher, here is the full interview with Casey Keefe of Lucas Arts, where he says that a rollback to pre-cu is not possible for technical and resource issues. The comments you're looking for are in blue, below. "Lost the code" is probably a paraphrase that is not entirely accurate. It appears to be an oversimplification of the issues involved, though I can understand how people got this message. My interpretation of the comments would be that they lost personnel that were familiar with the code, and they certainly did. Some quit, and others requested transfer to other assignments. One was granted. If people want to be entirely accurate though, the rollback was denied allegedly for reasons related to "technology" and "resources," and not for business reasons. That's as specific as it gets, I think. "Casey Keefe is the Community & Press Relations Manager at LucasArts responsible for Star Wars Galaxies. Recently, Casey had a chance to answer a few of our questions about Star Wars Galaxies. These include the current state of the game, some questions on the recent NGE update and a look at what they have in store. MMORPG.com: Tell us about Star Wars Galaxies how it stands today. What would a new player who has no experience with SWG find if they logged in today? Casey Keefe: A new player will definitely find the game much easier to get into than before, as well as a much more compelling and story-driven adventure. We have taken a tutorial-style approach and integrated it into the first ten levels of the game, so that while the player is learning how to play, they are also leveling. For players searching for a true role-playing adventure steeped in Star Wars fiction, they have come to the right place. MMORPG.com: Recently, server population numbers circulated online that someone allegedly uncovered. Can you comment on the accuracy of these numbers? Casey Keefe: We never have and never will comment in regards to subscriber and player numbers. MMORPG.com: What gameplay changes are currently on the developer’s agenda. Can you run us through some areas you plan to address – via patches – in the near future? Casey Keefe: In addition to bug fixing and addressing other issues, the team is hard at work on introducing new content for each of the professions. You may have noticed the recent Publish 27 which added several new abilities to the Jedi profession. In addition to adding new abilities for each profession (not just Jedi), we plan on re-introducing specialization within professions via skills that will allow players to differentiate themselves more from others in the same profession.
Additionally, the team is working on bringing fresh story-driven content (missions, etc.) to the existing game as well. MMORPG.com: You acknowledged in your last producer letter that one major flaw with the NGE’s introduction was broken content and that it was your goal to fix that. How did this happen in the first place? Casey Keefe: No comment. MMORPG.com: Do you have plans for another traditional expansion to SWG? Casey Keefe: Look for announcements regarding future Galaxies projects to be coming soon.
advertisement MMORPG.com: What message do you have to those players who quit Star Wars Galaxies after the NGE update? Casey Keefe: After hearing the reasons why players left, we have gathered that feedback and used it in deciding future elements of the game. Even though we aren’t “rolling back” the game, we hope to re-introduce some of the older elements that players enjoyed in the context of the new direction of the game, such as what we are aiming to do with the specialization elements. Our hope is that reintroduction of these elements will draw said players back to the game. MMORPG.com: You’ve mentioned over and over the desire to have more of a Star Wars experience. Specifically – in terms of story presentation - how do you intend to achieve this in the long run? Should players be expecting more instanced quests, more live events, more cinematics, all of the above or something entirely new? Casey Keefe: Most likely a combination of all of the above, with an emphasis on instancing-type adventures that allows us to maximize the games technology (more on this element to come in the next few months). MMORPG.com: We asked this before and the answer was no. However, today, I’d like to re-submit it. Are there any plans for a “classic server” that runs an older version of the game? Casey Keefe: No, and not for business reasons – it is impossible in terms of technology and resources. MMORPG.com: Looking forward, where do you see Star Wars Galaxies in a year? Casey Keefe: Still going strong with an increased focus on bringing the infamous Galactic Civil War to life. One of the long-term development goals is to give players the ability to have a direct impact on this staple of Star Wars fiction and canon." This is in the news section of these forums btw, February 2006, or late March.
Yup, none of that even remotely implies they "lost the code," or even that they no longer have it. What is implies is that they can't afford to run one. That's BS too of course, but it certainly has nothing to do with them losing the code, as far as my reading of that goes.
Sounds like LA wouldn't pay for both games, that is why it was impossible in terms of technology and resources.
No money to do it, no talent to do it.
In fact, in Rubenfield's "Om nom nom" blog, he clearly stated that as he was developing the NGE, he was backing up the old code. This was CU though, not pre-cu. So, if that can be believed, the pre-NGE code itself was definitely available in Nov. 2005.
I think it's unlikely we will ever hear, "we can't run pre-cu because the devs that understood the code quit when we pulled the rug out from under our players." We know, however, from the likes of Raph Koster that this is exactly why they lost their experienced developers; some of whom wrote, implemented and maintained the original game code.
It's too bad they'll never be that specific. I think it's led to a lot of speculation and debate, that is obviously ongoing. Really though, a blunt admission of the exact nature of the problem would be extremely embarassing; and SOE/LEC have always been on damage control about these issues.
I love the "no comment" response from Keefe for example about horrific quality of the NGE code when it went live.
I remember exactly where it came from. After the NGE went live and the forums were in flames Smed made three or four posts trying to damage control. There was one huge thread where he was actually trying to respond to questions and in that thread several people asked if the reasons for not doing rollbacks were technical in nature or political/business related. He stated that they didn't have the old code so it was technically impossible to do a rollback even if they wanted to. Of course the forums were wiped when they upgraded their software so unless somebody has an archive available you're not going to see the actual post but that is where it came from. If there is an archive of the old forums it would have been within a week of the NGE live date. The reason I remember it so clearly is because in the days after the NGE I was on the forums a lot checking the dev tracker. I even had a bookmark of all of Smed's posts for easy reference and every time I clicked on that link I would see that post.
You know what? I also remember Smed posting on the forums about this and he did mention that there were issues related to the code that prevented a rollback. As this person stated, the forums were wiped clean. Bio's scrapbook doesn't have it unfortunately, and every link I clicked that would refer me to Smed's comments today took me to the SWG "BUY NOW" page lmao; I'm not kidding. Man that's priceless.
I think it's clear there are code related issues; I still think "lost" isn't the right word though exactly--at least in the sense of misplaced. They did "lose" devs though, and those devs were the pre-cu code experts.
I remember exactly where it came from. After the NGE went live and the forums were in flames Smed made three or four posts trying to damage control. There was one huge thread where he was actually trying to respond to questions and in that thread several people asked if the reasons for not doing rollbacks were technical in nature or political/business related. He stated that they didn't have the old code so it was technically impossible to do a rollback even if they wanted to. Of course the forums were wiped when they upgraded their software so unless somebody has an archive available you're not going to see the actual post but that is where it came from. If there is an archive of the old forums it would have been within a week of the NGE live date. The reason I remember it so clearly is because in the days after the NGE I was on the forums a lot checking the dev tracker. I even had a bookmark of all of Smed's posts for easy reference and every time I clicked on that link I would see that post.
You know what? I also remember Smed posting on the forums about this and he did mention that there were issues related to the code that prevented a rollback. As this person stated, the forums were wiped clean. Bio's scrapbook doesn't have it unfortunately, and every link I clicked that would refer me to Smed's comments today took me to the SWG "BUY NOW" page lmao; I'm not kidding. Man that's priceless.
I think it's clear there are code related issues; I still think "lost" isn't the right word though exactly--at least in the sense of misplaced. They did "lose" devs though, and those devs were the pre-cu code experts.
Yeah I'm pretty sure he never said they lost the code...the way he phrased it was more like they no longer had the code or something like that. Of course it was an outright lie either way but I don't think he ever said that they lost the code...like they misplaced it or something.
He was just grasping at straws trying to get the forums calmed down.
Comments
Yeah, I vaguely remember that chat.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I believe thats an excuse to avoid the players tbh. SOE messed up BIG TIME.
In Bioware we Trust xD
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
both allude to having the code. Couldn't find a quote saying they didn't have it, although quotes were deleted all the time on that forum. The quote from smed was only 10 days after the NGE went live, but what kunoulovesme said is mildly familiar to me. I can't say that didn't happen.
It is also stated in the infamous drunken "Om-nom-nom" blog by whatever damn programmer posted it, (before the moron sobered up and edited it) that SOE was maintaining both sets of code for the 6 weeks after the NGE. I am sure there is an unedited version of in here somewhere.
It was never about lost code or "couldn't" do a roll back or pre-cu server, it is that the arrogant waste of skin, known as Smed, could not bring himself to admitting a mistake or trying to fix it.
Which is incidentally why many vets (of which I am one) still hold a grudge against Smed et al: the absolute and total disrespect he/they had for their paying customers.
I think all the HoC chats are still around, so that quote should be easy to find. I'm too lazy atm.
I have a copy of the original text. It says:
"If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch Ive ever done.
We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.
We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation."
nothing was said about 6 weeks into the NGE.
That is not true, lucas arts just said your not using my intellectual property anymore. I think you are reading far too deep into this.
Forget about SoE. Even if they did bring back a Pre-CU forum, that's like an abused wife going back to her husband after she gets her ear cut off. Its just asking for more.
All we can do for Pre-CU is hope the emulation scene gets their act together. Although at this rate, they'll be releasing a working version of SWG Emu about the same time that Darkfall is released.
That is not true, lucas arts just said your not using my intellectual property anymore. I think you are reading far too deep into this.
Do you have evidence to support this position? What exactly does it have to do with what I am asking about?
I'm not reading anything into anything. I made an observation of what people have said on these and other forums and am questioning it.
fishermage.blogspot.com
So far, all we have actual evidence for is that they did save the code, and said so.
fishermage.blogspot.com
www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/2301-John-Smedley-Exclusive-Interview-with-the-SOE-CEO.2
well all i could find is this, and in it he says :
"That other lesson is the infamous "New Game Experience" the team put into Star Wars Galaxies in 2005. On that, he was completely frank.
"With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made," he told us. "We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have, and it's not a mistake we're going to make again."
The NGE completely altered Star Wars Galaxies, a game that had launched in cooperation with LucasArts over two years before. Classes disappeared and the game fundamentally changed in almost every way. It came as no surprise to observers that this change was massively unpopular among the playerbase.
And what was the mistake SOE made that Smedley is sorry for?
"[The mistake was] to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix," he explained. "We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming and we were wrong."
He went on to point out that after two years, the game is once again stable and growing. They continue to update the game with new content and those fans, old and new, who enjoy the current incarnation of the game are being listened to. The old game won't come back - to change now would be as unfair as the first time they did it - but he believes SWG still has a solid future."
As i looked around to see if they said they lost it couldn't find anything, but from reading that sounds like they could go back but aren't going to, so that tells me they still have it, imo.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
Yup that jives with everything I've seen on the subject.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Yup that jives with everything I've seen on the subject.
Although Smed will always be akin to a used car salesman in my book I do applaud them for not screwing over their current player base even though I would never trust what they say...ever...however...that is not an apology for doing the NGE but an apology for not communicating that they were doing it. Big difference IMHO.
I wonder if they consider it stable and growing now?
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Yup that jives with everything I've seen on the subject.
Although Smed will always be akin to a used car salesman in my book I do applaud them for not screwing over their current player base even though I would never trust what they say...ever...however...that is not an apology for doing the NGE but an apology for not communicating that they were doing it. Big difference IMHO.
I wonder if they consider it stable and growing now?
Plus nothing there stops them from putting up classic servers. They can make the false claim that they can't afford to support two games, but they can -- station pass has them supporting several games, and of course the idea would be that any classic server would be either paid for with its own subscription or a part of station pass, like everything else.
No, the reason they don't do what vets want is it would prove they were wrong when the NGE servers died and people only played SWG Classic. Smedley can't afford to risk looking that bad.
As to not screwing ther player base, they did continue to screw their playerbase. The GCW, the C6CD, and other bad, sweeping changes they made to the game in the wake of the NGE still shows that, not only did they apologise for the wrong thing, it showed that they were quite capable of repeating the real mistake, that of destroying players' past efforts in a persistent world gaming environment, even if they would never repeat the degree.
Stable and growing now? I would say stable, but not growing.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Other than them compounding their own code problem by consolidating servers...LOL
stable would be questionable on the high pops.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
yeah, the lag is really bad now. It was always a problem but for many people the game is unplayable in a whole new way! Aside from the crappy UI and the bugs, that is!
fishermage.blogspot.com
Corporations and governments admit to mistakes all the time (Coke, Ford, GE, President Bush, President Clinton, various governors). SOE does as well. Smedley jsut won't admit to a mistake that might cost HIM his job.
He even already admits to miscommunication, because that wasn't HIS doing.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Dead on right there, so many of the things SOE has done have turned out below industry standards so much it just boggles my mind, I've talked about this company wide epidemic myself and it is just amazing that they get away with the things they do without someone considering that the guys at the top aren't the right people for the job. My hope is thta that changes someday because in the long run gamers are the ones who really suffer because they seem to be able to turn a meager profit doing the things they do and a company with the backing that they have should be doing alot more to move the genre forward as opposed to taking it back as they do by setting the example to smaller companies that it is ok to practice business the way they do.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Hi Fisher. I'm aware of a few pieces of information that I think people interpreted to mean that SOE "lost the code."
Here's what I read, and I'll putz around a bit to see if I can dig it up again. If I start getting eyestrain all bets are off though lol.
When LEC (not SOE btw) was asked about a rollback shortly after the NGE, their rep at the time (forget who it was at that moment) said that they were unable to roll-back due to "technical reasons."
More recently when asked to make improvements to JTL, one of the developers (again I forget which one, but I'm thinking it was Blix or Deadmeat) said that they did not understand the JTL code, and had no documentation on it; so the new dev team had to reverse engineer it.
Another SOE dev was reported to say that rollback to CU was technically feasible, but rollback to pre-cu was not. Again, I read the quote, the dev was referenced at the time, but this was years ago.
When asked about rollback to pre-cu, Jeff's comments were that he assumed (didn't know for sure or would not disclose) that the refusal was for business reasons.
So, as things go with SOE, there has been some ambiguity and even contradiction on this issue.
I think people came to the conclusing "we lost the code" on their own based on the disclosures about the JTL code, and the LEC reps comments that pre-cu was not technically possible. The LEC rep very clearly stated that this was not business related, but was a technical issue. If he can be trusted, it's not that much of a stretch to conclude that it is a coding problem.
For what it's worth, I think that when people like Vogel, Koster, Greenmarine and others hit the road, SOE lost the technical expertise to manage the pre-cu code. Even if they have it somewhere; it's probably like reading heiroglyphics to the newer, less experienced developers.
That's from my memory which isn't too bad usually, but like I said, I'll putz and see what I can find.
O.k. Fisher, here is the full interview with Casey Keefe of Lucas Arts, where he says that a rollback to pre-cu is not possible for technical and resource issues.
The comments you're looking for are in blue, below. "Lost the code" is probably a paraphrase that is not entirely accurate. It appears to be an oversimplification of the issues involved, though I can understand how people got this message.
My interpretation of the comments would be that they lost personnel that were familiar with the code, and they certainly did. Some quit, and others requested transfer to other assignments. One was granted. If people want to be entirely accurate though, the rollback was denied allegedly for reasons related to "technology" and "resources," and not for business reasons. That's as specific as it gets, I think.
"Casey Keefe is the Community & Press Relations Manager at LucasArts responsible for Star Wars Galaxies. Recently, Casey had a chance to answer a few of our questions about Star Wars Galaxies. These include the current state of the game, some questions on the recent NGE update and a look at what they have in store.
MMORPG.com: Tell us about Star Wars Galaxies how it stands today. What would a new player who has no experience with SWG find if they logged in today?
Casey Keefe: A new player will definitely find the game much easier to get into than before, as well as a much more compelling and story-driven adventure. We have taken a tutorial-style approach and integrated it into the first ten levels of the game, so that while the player is learning how to play, they are also leveling. For players searching for a true role-playing adventure steeped in Star Wars fiction, they have come to the right place.
MMORPG.com: Recently, server population numbers circulated online that someone allegedly uncovered. Can you comment on the accuracy of these numbers?
Casey Keefe: We never have and never will comment in regards to subscriber and player numbers.
MMORPG.com: What gameplay changes are currently on the developer’s agenda. Can you run us through some areas you plan to address – via patches – in the near future?
Casey Keefe: In addition to bug fixing and addressing other issues, the team is hard at work on introducing new content for each of the professions. You may have noticed the recent Publish 27 which added several new abilities to the Jedi profession. In addition to adding new abilities for each profession (not just Jedi), we plan on re-introducing specialization within professions via skills that will allow players to differentiate themselves more from others in the same profession.
Additionally, the team is working on bringing fresh story-driven content (missions, etc.) to the existing game as well.
MMORPG.com: You acknowledged in your last producer letter that one major flaw with the NGE’s introduction was broken content and that it was your goal to fix that. How did this happen in the first place?
Casey Keefe: No comment.
MMORPG.com: Do you have plans for another traditional expansion to SWG?
Casey Keefe: Look for announcements regarding future Galaxies projects to be coming soon.
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MMORPG.com: What message do you have to those players who quit Star Wars Galaxies after the NGE update?
Casey Keefe: After hearing the reasons why players left, we have gathered that feedback and used it in deciding future elements of the game. Even though we aren’t “rolling back” the game, we hope to re-introduce some of the older elements that players enjoyed in the context of the new direction of the game, such as what we are aiming to do with the specialization elements. Our hope is that reintroduction of these elements will draw said players back to the game.
MMORPG.com: You’ve mentioned over and over the desire to have more of a Star Wars experience. Specifically – in terms of story presentation - how do you intend to achieve this in the long run? Should players be expecting more instanced quests, more live events, more cinematics, all of the above or something entirely new?
Casey Keefe: Most likely a combination of all of the above, with an emphasis on instancing-type adventures that allows us to maximize the games technology (more on this element to come in the next few months).
MMORPG.com: We asked this before and the answer was no. However, today, I’d like to re-submit it. Are there any plans for a “classic server” that runs an older version of the game?
Casey Keefe: No, and not for business reasons – it is impossible in terms of technology and resources.
MMORPG.com: Looking forward, where do you see Star Wars Galaxies in a year?
Casey Keefe: Still going strong with an increased focus on bringing the infamous Galactic Civil War to life. One of the long-term development goals is to give players the ability to have a direct impact on this staple of Star Wars fiction and canon."
This is in the news section of these forums btw, February 2006, or late March.
Yup, none of that even remotely implies they "lost the code," or even that they no longer have it. What is implies is that they can't afford to run one. That's BS too of course, but it certainly has nothing to do with them losing the code, as far as my reading of that goes.
Sounds like LA wouldn't pay for both games, that is why it was impossible in terms of technology and resources.
No money to do it, no talent to do it.
fishermage.blogspot.com
O.k. Fisher, here's the other quote from Hanse about losing devs and not having documentation on JTL code:
"The space system introduced with Jump to Lightspeed has been tweaked and fixed in small ways in the last few years. New ships were added to the system later, but the designers who added those ships are no longer with the company and their methods for adding them were not documented."
Found here: http://www.warcry.com/news/view/80692-SWG-Dev-Diary-Thomas-Hanse-Eidson.
There was a similar post on the SOE boards that detailed how they had to reverse engineer the code to figure out how to work with it. I'd dig for that too, but now I am getting eyestrain lol.
I think if you read these articles, it gives a more detailed explanation of why they didn't rollback. "Lost the code" is an understandable but oversimplified paraphrase I think
. I still say lost the devs that understood the code, and had no way in hell of ever getting them back was probably more accurate lol.
Oh, and I read all that too. I really have read most if not all of the comments from the DEVs.
So once again, we only have a sooper sekrit conversation where Smed supposedly said this, and the rest is conjecture from cryptic statements made that obviously imply something else.
fishermage.blogspot.com
In other words they do not understand the code, which we all already know -- not that they lost the code. I;ve read all this before. None of it says nor implies they lost the code, or no longer have it. They obviously have it but can't figure it out. Those are completely different things that are barely related.
What you are saying, and I am agreeing with, is nothing like what people are saying.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Yup, none of that even remotely implies they "lost the code," or even that they no longer have it. What is implies is that they can't afford to run one. That's BS too of course, but it certainly has nothing to do with them losing the code, as far as my reading of that goes.
Sounds like LA wouldn't pay for both games, that is why it was impossible in terms of technology and resources.
No money to do it, no talent to do it.
In fact, in Rubenfield's "Om nom nom" blog, he clearly stated that as he was developing the NGE, he was backing up the old code. This was CU though, not pre-cu. So, if that can be believed, the pre-NGE code itself was definitely available in Nov. 2005.
I think it's unlikely we will ever hear, "we can't run pre-cu because the devs that understood the code quit when we pulled the rug out from under our players." We know, however, from the likes of Raph Koster that this is exactly why they lost their experienced developers; some of whom wrote, implemented and maintained the original game code.
It's too bad they'll never be that specific. I think it's led to a lot of speculation and debate, that is obviously ongoing. Really though, a blunt admission of the exact nature of the problem would be extremely embarassing; and SOE/LEC have always been on damage control about these issues.
I love the "no comment" response from Keefe for example about horrific quality of the NGE code when it went live.
You know what? I also remember Smed posting on the forums about this and he did mention that there were issues related to the code that prevented a rollback. As this person stated, the forums were wiped clean. Bio's scrapbook doesn't have it unfortunately, and every link I clicked that would refer me to Smed's comments today took me to the SWG "BUY NOW" page lmao; I'm not kidding. Man that's priceless.
I think it's clear there are code related issues; I still think "lost" isn't the right word though exactly--at least in the sense of misplaced. They did "lose" devs though, and those devs were the pre-cu code experts.
You know what? I also remember Smed posting on the forums about this and he did mention that there were issues related to the code that prevented a rollback. As this person stated, the forums were wiped clean. Bio's scrapbook doesn't have it unfortunately, and every link I clicked that would refer me to Smed's comments today took me to the SWG "BUY NOW" page lmao; I'm not kidding. Man that's priceless.
I think it's clear there are code related issues; I still think "lost" isn't the right word though exactly--at least in the sense of misplaced. They did "lose" devs though, and those devs were the pre-cu code experts.
Yeah I'm pretty sure he never said they lost the code...the way he phrased it was more like they no longer had the code or something like that. Of course it was an outright lie either way but I don't think he ever said that they lost the code...like they misplaced it or something.
He was just grasping at straws trying to get the forums calmed down.