Warhammer hit a snag due to the wow expansion for sure, once the cools down I am sure we will see a rise in WAR. What amazes me however is why they even made Warhammer... why not make Warhammer 40K online and beat Blizzard to the SciFi MMO scene? Once they make (and they will..) Worlds of Starcraft it will be too late, and Warhammer will just be one of many trying to catch up.
Yes, let's see, Mythic creates a sci-fi to beat Blizzard to it. They release a game with the same quality and replayability as WAR. Blizzard then creates a sci-fi with the same quality and replayability of WoW.
Which game do you honestly think people will play with WAR in the back of their heads still and the huge failure it has proven to be? I doubt they can even get the funding from EA to begin creating one on top of that.
And besides Warhammer 40k is already being developed I believe, hopefully by someone quite a bit more competent than Mythic.
Oh and like the guy above me explained, it's getting seriously old to blame WoW for every single downfall of the new MMORPG's coming out. Maybe it's the games that are total crap, ever think of that? And most people had already quit by the time WoTLK came out. I'm not playing either of those 2 games right now but I stuck with WoW and the new expansion a heck of a lot longer than I did with WAR. And most likely I'll return to WoW sometime in the next few months. Will I return to WAR with the fluff "expansion"? Not a chance in hell.
neller, neller, neller. What 'er are we going to do with you? WAR may be a huge failure in your eyes, but to a lot of people that I group with every night, it's a blast. You really need to preface everything you say with the caveat "Personal Biased Opinion". As it is, you seem to think you are speaking for everyone when in truth you are just a hater who is trying to spoil things for others. Why don't you go back to the WoW boards and gush all over them about how great WoW is? With over 11 million subs, I'm sure you'll find someone who agrees with you.
Ion
Let's take it from a business perspective. Dropping 550.000 subscribers in roughly 2 months time due to people all quitting for the same reasons, one huge disaster and an incredible huge loss in perceived subscription income and other fees.
Do you think Mythic is partying right now, after having laid off people twice in a short period of time as well?
And I'm not playing WoW right now. I might play it again. Many others who quit WAR also might play WoW again. However if there's one thing I and they most likely never will do again, is play WAR.
But please, let's hear all about how a tiny handful of subscribers will save the game from shutting down within a year. The "expansion"? Two more classes and a new dungeon. Sure sounds awesome, more on the already huge pile of nothing to do. Now you can do nothing with 2 more classes, that's SURE to bring back a million or two new subscribers, right?
I do agree with you on one point. WoW from a business perspective is awesome, 11 million players and rising. Quite the contrast to Borehammer.
Just admit it, WAR is a huge failure. You and a few friends having fun doesn't mean a thing when 550.000 other people thought it was craptastic. It is boring. It has virtually zero endgame. It has virtually zero replayability on top when you realize there's nothing to aim for. I and 550.000 other people are seriously wondering what in the world you and the tiny amount of people compared to what they hoped for are still seeing in this game.
Originally posted by Oneish Warhammer hit a snag due to the wow expansion for sure, once the cools down I am sure we will see a rise in WAR.
"Warhammer Online was developed by Mythic Entertainment and simultaneously released in North and South Americas, Europe, Asia, Australia and New Zealand on September 18, 2008".
Two months pass....
"Wrath of the Lich King was released on November 13, 2008, selling 2.8 million copies within the first 24 hours of availability. This makes it the fastest selling computer game of all time, beating the record set by the previous World of Warcraft expansion The Burning Crusade, which sold 2.4 million within its first 24 hours".
Tons of people left Warhammer long before WOTLK released. They did not quit Warhammer in anticipation of WOTLK. They quit Warhammer for a variety of reasons, the most common being that after the first month the game went snoozy on you. Warhammer's fall had nothing to do with WoW setting snags and pulling people away from Warhammer. I know this is silly to ask, but can you provide a link to verify your claim? Warhammer got those subscriptions to run away all by itself. You really need to stop blaming Wow for Warhammer's ills and be honest about the situation. Letting Mythic off the hook by pointing at Wow is what they are hoping everyone will do.
Numbers get lost, even MJ is not fully forthcoming in his disclosures so no one can give "spot on" numbers if that's what your asking. So yeah, I'd have to agree with you on this one.. kind of silly to ask for a link to an "opinion" of mine. We just know there's a hole in Warhammer's sales that was already happening after they launched. Warhammer was #2 in PC sales for September, #5 for October and nowhere at all on the charts for November until present. I really don't think we can give all that to Wow.
Let me ask you this: Do you honestly think that tons of people left Warhammer to play WOTLK as the sole reason to leaving, when plenty already claim they were bored with Wow? Because the quote I'm talking about above is the suggestion there. He's saying WOTLK was a "snag", that was basically hindering WAR's growth. It simply looked like when people had a clear choice between Wow and Warhammer, Wow won almost every time later on. That is not Wow's fault, the people just thought its a better game, I guess. Wow wasn't giving free foot massages with every purchase.
The reality was, without links, that people had been leaving after the first month subscription ran out. Not because WOTLK was coming and they were resting their fingers in anticipation, lol.
As for a link, maybe I can give you something better. Direct quote by Jacobs talking about Warhammer subs today:
"Actually Jeff is quite right. First, our sub numbers have been increasing and second, we never announced our subscription numbers prior to the recent earnings call. Our news item from the Herald announced quite clearly that 750K registered for the game not subscribed to the game. This is no different that pretty much every other MMO maker has done in the past whether they call it players registered, boxes sold, etc. We would have done the boxes sold thing but we sold a lot of copies digitally. It would have been a really cool to have said we had 750K (especially that early in October) but to have 750K subs before even their free month expired would be impossible. Thus, I can say 100%, that we never had 750,000 subscribers. Keep in mind that there is a world of difference between boxes sold and subscribers. The percentage of people that become subscribers after their free month is generally called "conversion rate" and no game, not even WoW, had a 100% conversion rate. DAoC, which was quite successful by the standards of the times, had a very nice conversion rate but it was nowhere near 100% and neither was EQ or any other subscription-based MMORPG that I aware of. I've talked about this subject a number of times before and I'm sure my exact quote about DAoC can be found on the 'Net."
Yep, that's Jacobs saying today, that Warhammer never, ever had 750k subs. How is that WOTLK's fault?
Its yet more proof that if you give the masses an alternative to wow theyll flock to it. 800 thousand for conan, 800 thousand for war. Trouble is that both games couldnt hold people due to far too many bugs and broken features,so they went back to wow,counter strike or their xbox.
Reading warhammer alliance lately shocks me with the amount of excuses that fans will make for that 500k loss of players: its the economy,its blizzards fault,its wotlk,its because wow players cant take the hardcore pvp (that one was especially ridiculous),its because of transitional gamers,its because people have lost their jobs,its because people are spoilt by wow..it goes on and on. Whilst no doubt the economic crisis and wotlk will have caused a few casualties,theres been no proof of other games taking a hit of half a million customers.
None of them seem to be willing to admit the real problems,like tier 4 being a complete mess,horrible combat thats still not fixed,mobs that animate like somethign from a 1997 psone game,CTDs,optimisation problems..no,it cant be that,it must be the evil empire,blizzard. Its not,its because Mythic rushed it out 6 months too early.
That topic on VNboards has some interesting questions attached to it but whether MJ will answer any of them remains to be seen.
People compare WAR to AOC a lot, but seems to me, AOC was released 6 months too early and is now a very playable solid MMO, that given another 6 months may even have a great endgame - something most MMOs *never* have. While WAR, OTOH, is fundamentally FUBAR. In 6 months they'll have a new dungeon and two new classes, but still be the same awful game.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
People compare WAR to AOC a lot, but seems to me, AOC was released 6 months too early and is now a very playable solid MMO, that given another 6 months may even have a great endgame - something most MMOs *never* have. While WAR, OTOH, is fundamentally FUBAR. In 6 months they'll have a new dungeon and two new classes, but still be the same awful game.
Right.
My opinion is just the other way around. AOC is fundamentally FUBAR. And WaR has a solid base where with work on tweaks, additional content and changes, a good game can be made.
People compare WAR to AOC a lot, but seems to me, AOC was released 6 months too early and is now a very playable solid MMO, that given another 6 months may even have a great endgame - something most MMOs *never* have. While WAR, OTOH, is fundamentally FUBAR. In 6 months they'll have a new dungeon and two new classes, but still be the same awful game.
Right.
My opinion is just the other way around. AOC is fundamentally FUBAR. And WaR has a solid base where with work on tweaks, additional content and changes, a good game can be made.
Guess its in the eye of the observer.
Heh, to a degree
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Its yet more proof that if you give the masses an alternative to wow theyll flock to it. 800 thousand for conan, 800 thousand for war. Trouble is that both games couldnt hold people due to far too many bugs and broken features,so they went back to wow,counter strike or their xbox. Reading warhammer alliance lately shocks me with the amount of excuses that fans will make for that 500k loss of players: its the economy,its blizzards fault,its wotlk,its because wow players cant take the hardcore pvp (that one was especially ridiculous),its because of transitional gamers,its because people have lost their jobs,its because people are spoilt by wow..it goes on and on. Whilst no doubt the economic crisis and wotlk will have caused a few casualties,theres been no proof of other games taking a hit of half a million customers. None of them seem to be willing to admit the real problems,like tier 4 being a complete mess,horrible combat thats still not fixed,mobs that animate like somethign from a 1997 psone game,CTDs,optimisation problems..no,it cant be that,it must be the evil empire,blizzard. Its not,its because Mythic rushed it out 6 months too early. That topic on VNboards has some interesting questions attached to it but whether MJ will answer any of them remains to be seen.
I think you have an interesting point made here about the DESIRE for something new...and how obvious it is given the massive player shifts each time a new game turns out. There ARE factors that contribute to the inevitable loss these games face after release (all games suffer loss, after all).
The biggest one will remain being WoW. It has more, and has had more time to polish its system. Its familiar, it has your friends. Its team is massive, and can afford to make tons of new additions at the drop of a hat.
what I don't understand is that this game was in development since 2004. that 4 years, with the the team of 400 people from 2006, this is the best work they can produce?
I may not know how hard it is to make mmos but that is heck of a long time and heck of long staff to come up with buggy version of WAR that we see today. Some bugs in the newbie zones on release was simple server optimization that was required and should have been fixed in open beta. Atleast it was released in better shape then AoC.
Not to mention, no clear direction at endgame. I can't really comment on the end game because the game got boring for me in tier 2 and didn't bother resubbing.
All those numbers come into place, but I still don't hear an explanation here what happened to those 800 K and 1.2 and 1.5 million figures ...
These might have been copies that sold to stores ?
The 800k aka 750k was never subs like many of us have been stating but the fanbois were unwilling to believe They were just ht enumber of boxes sold in the first month and the mysterious undefined "people playing" in the previous quarterly result. The other numbers are simply boxes sold to retailers, numbers which we'd already seen before released *as* boxes sold to retailers + the again obscure "units sold" used in the quarterly result for an economic report where really only boxes sold matters, not whether they reached the retailers or the consumers.
Aka, at least *i* was right all this time
Still means they lost 400+ players in 3 months + the number of people who bought the game since then.
Numbers get lost, even MJ is not fully forthcoming in his disclosures so no one can give "spot on" numbers if that's what your asking. So yeah, I'd have to agree with you on this one.. kind of silly to ask for a link to an "opinion" of mine. We just know there's a hole in Warhammer's sales that was already happening after they launched. Warhammer was #2 in PC sales for September, #5 for October and nowhere at all on the charts for November until present. I really don't think we can give all that to Wow.
Let me ask you this: Do you honestly think that tons of people left Warhammer to play WOTLK as the sole reason to leaving, when plenty already claim they were bored with Wow? Because the quote I'm talking about above is the suggestion there. He's saying WOTLK was a "snag", that was basically hindering WAR's growth. It simply looked like when people had a clear choice between Wow and Warhammer, Wow won almost every time later on. That is not Wow's fault, the people just thought its a better game, I guess. Wow wasn't giving free foot massages with every purchase.
The reality was, without links, that people had been leaving after the first month subscription ran out. Not because WOTLK was coming and they were resting their fingers in anticipation, lol.
As for a link, maybe I can give you something better. Direct quote by Jacobs talking about Warhammer subs today:
"Actually Jeff is quite right. First, our sub numbers have been increasing and second, we never announced our subscription numbers prior to the recent earnings call. Our news item from the Herald announced quite clearly that 750K registered for the game not subscribed to the game. This is no different that pretty much every other MMO maker has done in the past whether they call it players registered, boxes sold, etc. We would have done the boxes sold thing but we sold a lot of copies digitally. It would have been a really cool to have said we had 750K (especially that early in October) but to have 750K subs before even their free month expired would be impossible. Thus, I can say 100%, that we never had 750,000 subscribers. Keep in mind that there is a world of difference between boxes sold and subscribers. The percentage of people that become subscribers after their free month is generally called "conversion rate" and no game, not even WoW, had a 100% conversion rate. DAoC, which was quite successful by the standards of the times, had a very nice conversion rate but it was nowhere near 100% and neither was EQ or any other subscription-based MMORPG that I aware of. I've talked about this subject a number of times before and I'm sure my exact quote about DAoC can be found on the 'Net."
Yep, that's Jacobs saying today, that Warhammer never, ever had 750k subs. How is that WOTLK's fault?
Well, well, well ...TRUTH comes out after all......
So the people on this forum were right after all. 750K were just users "created" on the servers. Including all those thousands of free given open Beta testers and free players who happened to have preordered the game but did cancel even before launch.
Now let's see: WHERE are the 800.000 ? ... that EA spoke about in their financial report from June to Sep 2008.
Handy to come up with 750.000 now, but EA spoke clearly of 800K USERS - at the end of September.
And so where are all those others -where did they go to ? I mean the so called 1.2 million copies mentioned "sold" by EA in their report or ... where are the 1.5 million copies of War (remember 'the biggest pre order PC game sale in the history of EA with 1.5 M"? ).
All those numbers come into place, but I still don't hear an explanation here what happened to those 800 K and 1.2 and 1.5 million figures ...
So MORE truth please. ... or should I say truth about the fake hype ???
With all the above it is clear EA is far from happy with War at the moment and truth may be even harder than we think. ...
For who says that even 300K was the right number THIS time? Xfire still shows a number around 180K subscriptions if you compare it with other MMO's we know the sub numbers from (EVE = 250 K and Wow = 5 M).
So if the 800K were fake in Sep who says the 300K this time is right.... My bet is that the ratio of 150.000 Xfire users show far more credibility than numbers put out by Mythic in the past ...
-------
According to the present Xfire ratio... WAR is down to 180 K subs. In the past this ratio was reliable - we now know - so ....
aren't the actions of 2 staff cuts (one even with key development personnel) not in accordance with the rule of having going UNDER the point of return on investment EA said for WAR was ... 250 K subs back in September at launch ?
It all comes out eventually doesn't it ?
This is like watching a 10 year old trying to make sense of a detective novel. What's the matter with you pple ?
Number of user on a new mmo only shows how many people bought it and opened an account to play for the free month, it has nothing to do with the number of subs. Subscriptions are PAYING customers so you can;t even get those numbers until after people run out of fee month, and that will be different time for different people depending on when they use their retail key.
So nobody lied about numbers, you shmuck, you just don't understand what you're reading.
WAR did loose alot of people after the free month though, that goes without saying.
This is like watching a 10 year old trying to make sense of a detective novel. What's the matter with you pple ? Number of user on a new mmo only shows how many people bought it and opened an account to play for the free month, it has nothing to do with the number of subs. Subscriptions are PAYING customers so you can;t even get those numbers until after people run out of fee month, and that will be different time for different people depending on when they use their retail key.
So nobody lied about numbers, you shmuck, you just don't understand what you're reading. WAR did loose alot of people after the free month though, that goes without saying.
I was waiting for that one
300 K subs in December EA said, .... but ... they did NOT give a definition of "subscriptions" did they?
With Blizzard they include also all new players who bought the basic box and are still in their first free month playing (NOT the free trials - these are not counted as subs).
So if taking this definition; we have the Christmas sales + the guys playing longer than the first free month.
So easy to estimate: we had 800K (EA own figure) + November sales + December sales (Xmas) at reduced prices to finish off the old stock (1.2 or 1.5 M you choose).
Meaning the 300K left over are far more than the "750 not even achieved" MJ is talking about isn't it ?
So taking 80 K Christmas reduced price sales into that 300 K figure and counted as "subs"... hmmm.. it shows a lot more to that 200K downward road Xfire is showing right now these days. (compared to eve and wow ratio's, it shows a current 180K War players ...).
Meaning War lost a LOT more than 450 K players in these last 4 months and 300 K subs is a "very optimistic view" for the future.
So it will be interesting which number they will come up with in the next quarterly results EA publshes. Like you see above EA doesn't lie in a financial report, but they did NOT give a definition either .....
----
In fact all signs of lay off show that the bottom target of break even - 250 K subs EA own words at launch .... - is no longer met as of January 2009.
TWO waves of lay offs in 10 days time as a result.
Blizzard subs don't include people in there free month it only includes paying subs.
This is like watching a 10 year old trying to make sense of a detective novel. What's the matter with you pple ? Number of user on a new mmo only shows how many people bought it and opened an account to play for the free month, it has nothing to do with the number of subs. Subscriptions are PAYING customers so you can;t even get those numbers until after people run out of fee month, and that will be different time for different people depending on when they use their retail key.
So nobody lied about numbers, you shmuck, you just don't understand what you're reading. WAR did loose alot of people after the free month though, that goes without saying.
I was waiting for that one
300 K subs in December EA said, .... but ... they did NOT give a definition of "subscriptions" did they?
With Blizzard they include also all new players who bought the basic box and are still in their first free month playing (NOT the free trials - these are not counted as subs).
So if taking this definition; we have the Christmas sales + the guys playing longer than the first free month.
So easy to estimate: we had 800K (EA own figure) + November sales + December sales (Xmas) at reduced prices to finish off the old stock (1.2 or 1.5 M you choose).
Meaning the 300K left over are far more than the "750 not even achieved" MJ is talking about isn't it ?
So taking 80 K Christmas reduced price sales into that 300 K figure and counted as "subs"... hmmm.. it shows a lot more to that 200K downward road Xfire is showing right now these days. (compared to eve and wow ratio's, it shows a current 180K War players ...).
Meaning War lost a LOT more than 450 K players in these last 4 months and 300 K subs is a "very optimistic view" for the future.
So it will be interesting which number they will come up with in the next quarterly results EA publshes. Like you see above EA doesn't lie in a financial report, but they did NOT give a definition either .....
----
In fact all signs of lay off show that the bottom target of break even - 250 K subs EA own words at launch .... - is no longer met as of January 2009.
TWO waves of lay offs in 10 days time as a result.
Blizzard subs don't include people in there free month it only includes paying subs.
It actually *does* include people in their free month. Which isn't really that off unless you measure your subs only at times the game releases in new areas. (US/EU/Russia)
This is like watching a 10 year old trying to make sense of a detective novel. What's the matter with you pple ? Number of user on a new mmo only shows how many people bought it and opened an account to play for the free month, it has nothing to do with the number of subs. Subscriptions are PAYING customers so you can;t even get those numbers until after people run out of fee month, and that will be different time for different people depending on when they use their retail key.
So nobody lied about numbers, you shmuck, you just don't understand what you're reading. WAR did loose alot of people after the free month though, that goes without saying.
I was waiting for that one
300 K subs in December EA said, .... but ... they did NOT give a definition of "subscriptions" did they?
With Blizzard they include also all new players who bought the basic box and are still in their first free month playing (NOT the free trials - these are not counted as subs).
So if taking this definition; we have the Christmas sales + the guys playing longer than the first free month.
So easy to estimate: we had 800K (EA own figure) + November sales + December sales (Xmas) at reduced prices to finish off the old stock (1.2 or 1.5 M you choose).
Meaning the 300K left over are far more than the "750 not even achieved" MJ is talking about isn't it ?
So taking 80 K Christmas reduced price sales into that 300 K figure and counted as "subs"... hmmm.. it shows a lot more to that 200K downward road Xfire is showing right now these days. (compared to eve and wow ratio's, it shows a current 180K War players ...).
Meaning War lost a LOT more than 450 K players in these last 4 months and 300 K subs is a "very optimistic view" for the future.
So it will be interesting which number they will come up with in the next quarterly results EA publshes. Like you see above EA doesn't lie in a financial report, but they did NOT give a definition either .....
----
In fact all signs of lay off show that the bottom target of break even - 250 K subs EA own words at launch .... - is no longer met as of January 2009.
TWO waves of lay offs in 10 days time as a result.
Blizzard subs don't include people in there free month it only includes paying subs.
It actually *does* include people in their free month. Which isn't really that off unless you measure your subs only at times the game releases in new areas. (US/EU/Russia)
No the official subs released by Blizzard have a disclaimer on them which say the numbers are paying subs only and don't include those on free trails or in there free month.
This is like watching a 10 year old trying to make sense of a detective novel. What's the matter with you pple ? Number of user on a new mmo only shows how many people bought it and opened an account to play for the free month, it has nothing to do with the number of subs. Subscriptions are PAYING customers so you can;t even get those numbers until after people run out of fee month, and that will be different time for different people depending on when they use their retail key.
So nobody lied about numbers, you shmuck, you just don't understand what you're reading. WAR did loose alot of people after the free month though, that goes without saying.
I was waiting for that one
300 K subs in December EA said, .... but ... they did NOT give a definition of "subscriptions" did they?
With Blizzard they include also all new players who bought the basic box and are still in their first free month playing (NOT the free trials - these are not counted as subs).
So if taking this definition; we have the Christmas sales + the guys playing longer than the first free month.
So easy to estimate: we had 800K (EA own figure) + November sales + December sales (Xmas) at reduced prices to finish off the old stock (1.2 or 1.5 M you choose).
Meaning the 300K left over are far more than the "750 not even achieved" MJ is talking about isn't it ?
So taking 80 K Christmas reduced price sales into that 300 K figure and counted as "subs"... hmmm.. it shows a lot more to that 200K downward road Xfire is showing right now these days. (compared to eve and wow ratio's, it shows a current 180K War players ...).
Meaning War lost a LOT more than 450 K players in these last 4 months and 300 K subs is a "very optimistic view" for the future.
So it will be interesting which number they will come up with in the next quarterly results EA publshes. Like you see above EA doesn't lie in a financial report, but they did NOT give a definition either .....
----
In fact all signs of lay off show that the bottom target of break even - 250 K subs EA own words at launch .... - is no longer met as of January 2009.
TWO waves of lay offs in 10 days time as a result.
Blizzard subs don't include people in there free month it only includes paying subs.
It actually *does* include people in their free month. Which isn't really that off unless you measure your subs only at times the game releases in new areas. (US/EU/Russia)
No the official subs released by Blizzard have a disclaimer on them which say the numbers are paying subs only and don't include those on free trails or in there free month.
If you're gonna hold on to a theory it would really suit you to verify them when it's as easily done as this one
"World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access."
Originally posted by Pheace Originally posted by Newhopes No the official subs released by Blizzard have a disclaimer on them which say the numbers are paying subs only and don't include those on free trails or in there free month.
If you're gonna hold on to a theory it would really suit you to verify them when it's as easily done as this one
"World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access."
Again with the facts.. will you just cut it out, Pheace? You are stopping good conjecture here. Internet rumor is fun.
At least use made up facts or something, dammit...
Comments
Yes, let's see, Mythic creates a sci-fi to beat Blizzard to it. They release a game with the same quality and replayability as WAR. Blizzard then creates a sci-fi with the same quality and replayability of WoW.
Which game do you honestly think people will play with WAR in the back of their heads still and the huge failure it has proven to be? I doubt they can even get the funding from EA to begin creating one on top of that.
And besides Warhammer 40k is already being developed I believe, hopefully by someone quite a bit more competent than Mythic.
Oh and like the guy above me explained, it's getting seriously old to blame WoW for every single downfall of the new MMORPG's coming out. Maybe it's the games that are total crap, ever think of that? And most people had already quit by the time WoTLK came out. I'm not playing either of those 2 games right now but I stuck with WoW and the new expansion a heck of a lot longer than I did with WAR. And most likely I'll return to WoW sometime in the next few months. Will I return to WAR with the fluff "expansion"? Not a chance in hell.
neller, neller, neller. What 'er are we going to do with you? WAR may be a huge failure in your eyes, but to a lot of people that I group with every night, it's a blast. You really need to preface everything you say with the caveat "Personal Biased Opinion". As it is, you seem to think you are speaking for everyone when in truth you are just a hater who is trying to spoil things for others. Why don't you go back to the WoW boards and gush all over them about how great WoW is? With over 11 million subs, I'm sure you'll find someone who agrees with you.
Ion
Let's take it from a business perspective. Dropping 550.000 subscribers in roughly 2 months time due to people all quitting for the same reasons, one huge disaster and an incredible huge loss in perceived subscription income and other fees.
Do you think Mythic is partying right now, after having laid off people twice in a short period of time as well?
And I'm not playing WoW right now. I might play it again. Many others who quit WAR also might play WoW again. However if there's one thing I and they most likely never will do again, is play WAR.
But please, let's hear all about how a tiny handful of subscribers will save the game from shutting down within a year. The "expansion"? Two more classes and a new dungeon. Sure sounds awesome, more on the already huge pile of nothing to do. Now you can do nothing with 2 more classes, that's SURE to bring back a million or two new subscribers, right?
I do agree with you on one point. WoW from a business perspective is awesome, 11 million players and rising. Quite the contrast to Borehammer.
Just admit it, WAR is a huge failure. You and a few friends having fun doesn't mean a thing when 550.000 other people thought it was craptastic. It is boring. It has virtually zero endgame. It has virtually zero replayability on top when you realize there's nothing to aim for. I and 550.000 other people are seriously wondering what in the world you and the tiny amount of people compared to what they hoped for are still seeing in this game.
Numbers get lost, even MJ is not fully forthcoming in his disclosures so no one can give "spot on" numbers if that's what your asking. So yeah, I'd have to agree with you on this one.. kind of silly to ask for a link to an "opinion" of mine. We just know there's a hole in Warhammer's sales that was already happening after they launched. Warhammer was #2 in PC sales for September, #5 for October and nowhere at all on the charts for November until present. I really don't think we can give all that to Wow.
Let me ask you this: Do you honestly think that tons of people left Warhammer to play WOTLK as the sole reason to leaving, when plenty already claim they were bored with Wow? Because the quote I'm talking about above is the suggestion there. He's saying WOTLK was a "snag", that was basically hindering WAR's growth. It simply looked like when people had a clear choice between Wow and Warhammer, Wow won almost every time later on. That is not Wow's fault, the people just thought its a better game, I guess. Wow wasn't giving free foot massages with every purchase.
The reality was, without links, that people had been leaving after the first month subscription ran out. Not because WOTLK was coming and they were resting their fingers in anticipation, lol.
As for a link, maybe I can give you something better. Direct quote by Jacobs talking about Warhammer subs today:
Yep, that's Jacobs saying today, that Warhammer never, ever had 750k subs. How is that WOTLK's fault?
"TO MICHAEL!"
Have a link to that Pop?
EditL Nevermind, got it ^^
I like to make people work for it. They appreciate it better in the long run. :P
"TO MICHAEL!"
I like to make people work for it. They appreciate it better in the long run. :P
Urgh I hate work...
Its yet more proof that if you give the masses an alternative to wow theyll flock to it. 800 thousand for conan, 800 thousand for war. Trouble is that both games couldnt hold people due to far too many bugs and broken features,so they went back to wow,counter strike or their xbox.
Reading warhammer alliance lately shocks me with the amount of excuses that fans will make for that 500k loss of players: its the economy,its blizzards fault,its wotlk,its because wow players cant take the hardcore pvp (that one was especially ridiculous),its because of transitional gamers,its because people have lost their jobs,its because people are spoilt by wow..it goes on and on. Whilst no doubt the economic crisis and wotlk will have caused a few casualties,theres been no proof of other games taking a hit of half a million customers.
None of them seem to be willing to admit the real problems,like tier 4 being a complete mess,horrible combat thats still not fixed,mobs that animate like somethign from a 1997 psone game,CTDs,optimisation problems..no,it cant be that,it must be the evil empire,blizzard. Its not,its because Mythic rushed it out 6 months too early.
That topic on VNboards has some interesting questions attached to it but whether MJ will answer any of them remains to be seen.
People compare WAR to AOC a lot, but seems to me, AOC was released 6 months too early and is now a very playable solid MMO, that given another 6 months may even have a great endgame - something most MMOs *never* have. While WAR, OTOH, is fundamentally FUBAR. In 6 months they'll have a new dungeon and two new classes, but still be the same awful game.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Right.
My opinion is just the other way around. AOC is fundamentally FUBAR. And WaR has a solid base where with work on tweaks, additional content and changes, a good game can be made.
Guess its in the eye of the observer.
Right.
My opinion is just the other way around. AOC is fundamentally FUBAR. And WaR has a solid base where with work on tweaks, additional content and changes, a good game can be made.
Guess its in the eye of the observer.
Heh, to a degree
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I think you have an interesting point made here about the DESIRE for something new...and how obvious it is given the massive player shifts each time a new game turns out. There ARE factors that contribute to the inevitable loss these games face after release (all games suffer loss, after all).
The biggest one will remain being WoW. It has more, and has had more time to polish its system. Its familiar, it has your friends. Its team is massive, and can afford to make tons of new additions at the drop of a hat.
what I don't understand is that this game was in development since 2004. that 4 years, with the the team of 400 people from 2006, this is the best work they can produce?
I may not know how hard it is to make mmos but that is heck of a long time and heck of long staff to come up with buggy version of WAR that we see today. Some bugs in the newbie zones on release was simple server optimization that was required and should have been fixed in open beta. Atleast it was released in better shape then AoC.
Not to mention, no clear direction at endgame. I can't really comment on the end game because the game got boring for me in tier 2 and didn't bother resubbing.
These might have been copies that sold to stores ?
These might have been copies that sold to stores ?
The 800k aka 750k was never subs like many of us have been stating but the fanbois were unwilling to believe
They were just ht enumber of boxes sold in the first month and the mysterious undefined "people playing" in the previous quarterly result. The other numbers are simply boxes sold to retailers, numbers which we'd already seen before released *as* boxes sold to retailers + the again obscure "units sold" used in the quarterly result for an economic report where really only boxes sold matters, not whether they reached the retailers or the consumers.
Aka, at least *i* was right all this time
Still means they lost 400+ players in 3 months + the number of people who bought the game since then.
Yep, that's Jacobs saying today, that Warhammer never, ever had 750k subs. How is that WOTLK's fault?
Well, well, well ...TRUTH comes out after all......
So the people on this forum were right after all. 750K were just users "created" on the servers. Including all those thousands of free given open Beta testers and free players who happened to have preordered the game but did cancel even before launch.
Now let's see: WHERE are the 800.000 ? ... that EA spoke about in their financial report from June to Sep 2008.
Handy to come up with 750.000 now, but EA spoke clearly of 800K USERS - at the end of September.
And so where are all those others -where did they go to ? I mean the so called 1.2 million copies mentioned "sold" by EA in their report or ... where are the 1.5 million copies of War (remember 'the biggest pre order PC game sale in the history of EA with 1.5 M"? ).
All those numbers come into place, but I still don't hear an explanation here what happened to those 800 K and 1.2 and 1.5 million figures ...
So MORE truth please. ... or should I say truth about the fake hype ???
With all the above it is clear EA is far from happy with War at the moment and truth may be even harder than we think. ...
For who says that even 300K was the right number THIS time? Xfire still shows a number around 180K subscriptions if you compare it with other MMO's we know the sub numbers from (EVE = 250 K and Wow = 5 M).
So if the 800K were fake in Sep who says the 300K this time is right.... My bet is that the ratio of 150.000 Xfire users show far more credibility than numbers put out by Mythic in the past ...
-------
According to the present Xfire ratio... WAR is down to 180 K subs. In the past this ratio was reliable - we now know - so ....
aren't the actions of 2 staff cuts (one even with key development personnel) not in accordance with the rule of having going UNDER the point of return on investment EA said for WAR was ... 250 K subs back in September at launch ?
It all comes out eventually doesn't it ?
This is like watching a 10 year old trying to make sense of a detective novel. What's the matter with you pple ?
Number of user on a new mmo only shows how many people bought it and opened an account to play for the free month, it has nothing to do with the number of subs. Subscriptions are PAYING customers so you can;t even get those numbers until after people run out of fee month, and that will be different time for different people depending on when they use their retail key.
So nobody lied about numbers, you shmuck, you just don't understand what you're reading.
WAR did loose alot of people after the free month though, that goes without saying.
Sinister Savant MMORPG Community
I was waiting for that one
300 K subs in December EA said, .... but ... they did NOT give a definition of "subscriptions" did they?
With Blizzard they include also all new players who bought the basic box and are still in their first free month playing (NOT the free trials - these are not counted as subs).
So if taking this definition; we have the Christmas sales + the guys playing longer than the first free month.
So easy to estimate: we had 800K (EA own figure) + November sales + December sales (Xmas) at reduced prices to finish off the old stock (1.2 or 1.5 M you choose).
Meaning the 300K left over are far more than the "750 not even achieved" MJ is talking about isn't it ?
So taking 80 K Christmas reduced price sales into that 300 K figure and counted as "subs"... hmmm.. it shows a lot more to that 200K downward road Xfire is showing right now these days. (compared to eve and wow ratio's, it shows a current 180K War players ...).
Meaning War lost a LOT more than 450 K players in these last 4 months and 300 K subs is a "very optimistic view" for the future.
So it will be interesting which number they will come up with in the next quarterly results EA publshes. Like you see above EA doesn't lie in a financial report, but they did NOT give a definition either .....
----
In fact all signs of lay off show that the bottom target of break even - 250 K subs EA own words at launch .... - is no longer met as of January 2009.
TWO waves of lay offs in 10 days time as a result.
Blizzard subs don't include people in there free month it only includes paying subs.
I was waiting for that one
300 K subs in December EA said, .... but ... they did NOT give a definition of "subscriptions" did they?
With Blizzard they include also all new players who bought the basic box and are still in their first free month playing (NOT the free trials - these are not counted as subs).
So if taking this definition; we have the Christmas sales + the guys playing longer than the first free month.
So easy to estimate: we had 800K (EA own figure) + November sales + December sales (Xmas) at reduced prices to finish off the old stock (1.2 or 1.5 M you choose).
Meaning the 300K left over are far more than the "750 not even achieved" MJ is talking about isn't it ?
So taking 80 K Christmas reduced price sales into that 300 K figure and counted as "subs"... hmmm.. it shows a lot more to that 200K downward road Xfire is showing right now these days. (compared to eve and wow ratio's, it shows a current 180K War players ...).
Meaning War lost a LOT more than 450 K players in these last 4 months and 300 K subs is a "very optimistic view" for the future.
So it will be interesting which number they will come up with in the next quarterly results EA publshes. Like you see above EA doesn't lie in a financial report, but they did NOT give a definition either .....
----
In fact all signs of lay off show that the bottom target of break even - 250 K subs EA own words at launch .... - is no longer met as of January 2009.
TWO waves of lay offs in 10 days time as a result.
Blizzard subs don't include people in there free month it only includes paying subs.
It actually *does* include people in their free month. Which isn't really that off unless you measure your subs only at times the game releases in new areas. (US/EU/Russia)
I was waiting for that one
300 K subs in December EA said, .... but ... they did NOT give a definition of "subscriptions" did they?
With Blizzard they include also all new players who bought the basic box and are still in their first free month playing (NOT the free trials - these are not counted as subs).
So if taking this definition; we have the Christmas sales + the guys playing longer than the first free month.
So easy to estimate: we had 800K (EA own figure) + November sales + December sales (Xmas) at reduced prices to finish off the old stock (1.2 or 1.5 M you choose).
Meaning the 300K left over are far more than the "750 not even achieved" MJ is talking about isn't it ?
So taking 80 K Christmas reduced price sales into that 300 K figure and counted as "subs"... hmmm.. it shows a lot more to that 200K downward road Xfire is showing right now these days. (compared to eve and wow ratio's, it shows a current 180K War players ...).
Meaning War lost a LOT more than 450 K players in these last 4 months and 300 K subs is a "very optimistic view" for the future.
So it will be interesting which number they will come up with in the next quarterly results EA publshes. Like you see above EA doesn't lie in a financial report, but they did NOT give a definition either .....
----
In fact all signs of lay off show that the bottom target of break even - 250 K subs EA own words at launch .... - is no longer met as of January 2009.
TWO waves of lay offs in 10 days time as a result.
Blizzard subs don't include people in there free month it only includes paying subs.
It actually *does* include people in their free month. Which isn't really that off unless you measure your subs only at times the game releases in new areas. (US/EU/Russia)
No the official subs released by Blizzard have a disclaimer on them which say the numbers are paying subs only and don't include those on free trails or in there free month.
I was waiting for that one
300 K subs in December EA said, .... but ... they did NOT give a definition of "subscriptions" did they?
With Blizzard they include also all new players who bought the basic box and are still in their first free month playing (NOT the free trials - these are not counted as subs).
So if taking this definition; we have the Christmas sales + the guys playing longer than the first free month.
So easy to estimate: we had 800K (EA own figure) + November sales + December sales (Xmas) at reduced prices to finish off the old stock (1.2 or 1.5 M you choose).
Meaning the 300K left over are far more than the "750 not even achieved" MJ is talking about isn't it ?
So taking 80 K Christmas reduced price sales into that 300 K figure and counted as "subs"... hmmm.. it shows a lot more to that 200K downward road Xfire is showing right now these days. (compared to eve and wow ratio's, it shows a current 180K War players ...).
Meaning War lost a LOT more than 450 K players in these last 4 months and 300 K subs is a "very optimistic view" for the future.
So it will be interesting which number they will come up with in the next quarterly results EA publshes. Like you see above EA doesn't lie in a financial report, but they did NOT give a definition either .....
----
In fact all signs of lay off show that the bottom target of break even - 250 K subs EA own words at launch .... - is no longer met as of January 2009.
TWO waves of lay offs in 10 days time as a result.
Blizzard subs don't include people in there free month it only includes paying subs.
It actually *does* include people in their free month. Which isn't really that off unless you measure your subs only at times the game releases in new areas. (US/EU/Russia)
No the official subs released by Blizzard have a disclaimer on them which say the numbers are paying subs only and don't include those on free trails or in there free month.
If you're gonna hold on to a theory it would really suit you to verify them when it's as easily done as this one
"World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access."
If you're gonna hold on to a theory it would really suit you to verify them when it's as easily done as this one
"World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access."
Again with the facts.. will you just cut it out, Pheace? You are stopping good conjecture here. Internet rumor is fun.
At least use made up facts or something, dammit...
"TO MICHAEL!"