The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
As it stands it's simply a skill based, FPS, pvp, and conquest game.
Exactly.. And people should treat it as such..
it should be treated and judged by what it was and still is advertised as.
edit: any way i LOVE the people trying to justify macroing through realism. grow some balls and admit you are going to macro it to the max. if you can whack a spell into the air and gain points why cant you flail your sword wildly until you also magically gain points.
anybody care to adress the horrendous amounts of calculations done client side? really? any takers? just going to sit and take it i suppose. ready for how many cheaters that will bring to the game? please, please save yoursleves the embaressment if you think of saying no-one will cheat and it will get dealt with.
beta testers are very open about how they cheated and nothing came of it. if AV were really on the ball they would have stopped the cheats working but left the cheaters in to come up with new ones to fix them too..but alas no reports of bans or even basic cheats that stopped working
no-one for the running on the spot exploit? do you guys just want an exploit fest is that where the crucial differnce between fanboys and people are? i really want this game to succeed, im not mindlessly bashing it, but obviously flaws are just that.
i said before and i really think its 100% true, nobody on the DF team has played an mmo since they started work on DF
That's just idiotic.
A game should be judged based upon it's release state and progression after that. Not on what some percieve as advertisement. Not on hype built up by both haters and fans alike. Not on the perception that the game is something other then what it is. You can't fault the devs for others declaring it to be the second coming of UO when the devs themselves never claimed it to be such. The FAQ is still up and is still essentially accurate to what the beta testers have been saying, and the videos have shown.
People following the game declared it a sandbox, not Av as far as I've seen. At least I haven't seen it billed as a sandbox on thier official site.
In fact what I found on thier official site is: the focus of the game is kingdom building, clan warfare, and conquest.
The game hasn't released yet; people are still judging it on beta impressions. They are judging it on content that isn't available because the player base hasn't made it yet because there isn't a player base, just a couple thousand beta previewers.
How does anyone know how the economy is going to work before the player base is put in to create it. How does anyone know how crafting is going to shape up until the player base is put in place to harvest the mats. How is anyone supposed to know what matts are actually out there until the playerbase is in place to fully explore the world and find the mats.
The playerbase needs to be in place to actually find the recipies.
No, I'm not expecting a miracle patch, but I am expecting content that just isn't available because it requires a playerbase in place to actually utilize it. A few beta reviewers who have only 1 to 3 weeks of experience in game giving thier impressions is NOT the extent of the game.
Everyone sees only mana missiles in videos because everyone running around is doing on the base stuff and hasn't been able to get to the more advances spells and skills. They haven't crafted the more advanced armors and weapons.
My impression has been that the beta has been limited and thank god. It wouldn't do much good to upon up the entire game so that couple thousand people can figure out how to aquire everything before the actual playerbase is put in place at release. It would give a lot of people an unfair advantage.
And no, most betas do not open up the entire game to the testers prior to release. Most keep a good portion of the game blocked off and only allow the testers to test specific aspects. You don't need the testers to have access to all of the skills and abilities prior to release because balancing is an ongoing thing in an MMO.
This is just my impression though. Perhaps it's wrong, but something tells me that we haven't seen all of the game and that there is a good chunk that those in beta haven't had access to. We'll have to wait and see when the game is released and people have had time to actually explore it; at which time we'll have had adiquate information and experience to actually judge the game appropriately.
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Best to ignore this thread and those that agree with the OP. They simply have no idea what the difference between skill based and level based. Hence this thread.
Even someone with basic understanding of either system knows the difference.
Move on and pick another battle to fight this one isn't worth the effort or the time lol.
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Best to ignore this thread and those that agree with the OP. They simply have no idea what the difference between skill based and level based. Hence this thread.
Even someone with basic understanding of either system knows the difference.
Move on and pick another battle to fight this one isn't worth the effort or the time lol.
Yeah ur probably right. Its just argument for arguments sake.
Ofcourse u can call the individual skill thresholds for levels within the skills, but it is irrelevant when we are referring to the overall progress design of the game.
Wow has levels, and the whole game is designed around that, while Darkfall has skills that u progress and the game is designed around that.
Its a simple distinction really, but some people...
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Best to ignore this thread and those that agree with the OP. They simply have no idea what the difference between skill based and level based. Hence this thread.
Even someone with basic understanding of either system knows the difference.
Move on and pick another battle to fight this one isn't worth the effort or the time lol.
This will be my 1st and last post about Darkfall... An MMORPG can't be done as sandbox at all. The RPG part of the MMO requires some growth in the character. And growth can only be obtained by adding levels to something, either that be skills, or phisical levels as we're used to... I realy can't beleave that most ppl fail to see that
It makes a LOT more sense for their to be NO levels in a role playing game. You DO NOT NEED progression, get that out of your head. Progression doesn't make a game, sure, it might be how you measure success, but the way you put RPG states that you require growth, that is a LIE. You play a role in a game. ROLE, no where does progression work into that.
But that's really beside the point.. Darkfall is a level based game.. there has never been an MMORPG that didn't use a level progression setting. You run, your run skill increased to a different LEVEL. You swing a sword, your sword skill increases to a different level.
From the sounds of it, Asheron's Call was less of a level based game then Darkfall is. In AC, you might be able to force a spell with item magic skill of 180 (level 5s) Or even 160.. but you in Darkfall, there is no way to access the next power level of the spell at skill level 24..
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Skill based means that only skills used level.
Those skills still have levels but the overall character development is not level based. The skills themselves are.
Some would just rather twist and confuse the mechanics to make the sound like something they are not. The game isn't level based, the skills are.
Regardless of how those skills increase, whether it be through a soft cap system or a point for point system, it's still based if you can only level that skill through use.
If by level based you mean that as your character levels so do to all of the skills that character posses. Then no, DF is not level based.
People are arguing over symantics here.
UO is still level based as each skill gains a single point that point is a level and that skill improves.
so basically i have to lvl a skill at a time ? so isnt that worse than character lvl 'ing ? atleast when i lvl a character all my skills get lvl'ed
It's only worse if you prefer to have your characters development laid out for you. If you prefer a template type developement where everytime you level you level everything then I supposed a skill based system would be worse.
If you prefore open ended character development where you pick and choose what skills and abilities to level then no, it's not worse.
You can't really say that one is better then the other. I prefer a skill based system because I like being able to mold my character however I see fit. I don't like following a template and being stuck in a specific role throught the life of my character. My wow mage will never be able to use warlock spells and my hunter will never be able to use rogue abilities.
It's not about better or worse. It's about prefence. You either like one, the other, or both, but personal preference doesn't make one any better then the next.
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Because we are talking about the "traditional sense".
There are two kinds of MMOs, those where the players have to level up their character and those where the player has to skill up his abilities.
That is the distinction, what ur talking about isnt technically wrong, it just has nothing to do with what ppl mean when they say Skill based or level based.
It would be illogical to make skills incrementally more powerful every percentage point that they went up.
My two handed sword skill went up from 22 to 23. So now I do .087543 more damage?
It was my understanding that Aventurine wanted to limit the disparities between new players and vets, and in theory, a player with two handed sword 25 could go head to head with a player who had the same skill at level 100 (or whatever the cap is). Player skill was supposed to make it possible for the lower skill level player to win.
If this premise is true, there's not a lot of room to work with so it doesn't make sense to increment power each point.
Also, players need to have a sense of achievement. If the power went up each point, I'll bet few players would be able to tell the difference.
The way its set up now, there's a noticiable difference between SP's 24 and 25, so players feel the burn as it were.
Now this really isn't the same as 'levels' in the traditional sense.
In a game like DAOC, I can be a level 50 player and use a wooden stick and totally destroy a level 10 player no matter what he's holding. My character level alone gives me god-like abilities beyond the mere lowbie, (heck, in DAOC, a level 50 can pretty much destroy a level 47 or lower, player talent being even remotely similar)
So I think the OP is splitting hairs when saying the DF has 'levels'. Not in the traditional sense IMO.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah ur probably right. Its just argument for arguments sake.
Ofcourse u can call the individual skill thresholds for levels within the skills, but it is irrelevant when we are referring to the overall progress design of the game.
Wow has levels, and the whole game is designed around that, while Darkfall has skills that u progress and the game is designed around that.
Its a simple distinction really, but some people...
-Darkstar
You are stupid for trying to convince yourself of what is not. You want it to be something that it is not if what the OP is saying is true.
Technicaly every game is a level based game. Wether it be everytime you attack something with your sword and gain "points" in that skill, you just leveled up. As long as there is a difference in your character from one skill to the next time you use it, there is a level. Darkfall is a level based game just like EVERY other mmo. No matter how you try twist it, this is what it is.
Doesn't matter though, out of every single fanboy you are the worst and have never accepted anything anyone has to say on any thread beyond greatness from this game.
It really isn't terribly hard to limit macroing in a skill based progression. Simply award no skill up for actions that are trivial. For example, you cannot level up your dagger on a mob whose defence skill is sorely outclassed by your dagger skill. You need to continually search for new opponents to challenge yourself.
The same would apply to magic. For offensive magic, the skill up is based on the resistances of the mob you are casting at. No more shooting at the sky. For healing magic, it only counts if it actually heals damage.
For the harvesting skills, assign difficulty values to resources. If a resource is at the stage where you can harvest succesfully every time, no skill up.
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Because we are talking about the "traditional sense".
There are two kinds of MMOs, those where the players have to level up their character and those where the player has to skill up his abilities.
That is the distinction, what ur talking about isnt technically wrong, it just has nothing to do with what ppl mean when they say Skill based or level based.
-Darkstar
Your wrong. The difference is one is leveling up your character. The other is leveling up his skills. You're trying to say shooting MM in the air for hours is using skill instead of leveling? You can try use the word "skill" as much as you want, it doesn't change anything.
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Because we are talking about the "traditional sense".
There are two kinds of MMOs, those where the players have to level up their character and those where the player has to skill up his abilities.
That is the distinction, what ur talking about isnt technically wrong, it just has nothing to do with what ppl mean when they say Skill based or level based.
-Darkstar
Your wrong. The difference is one is leveling up your character. The other is leveling up his skills. You're trying to say shooting MM in the air for hours is using skill instead of leveling? You can try use the word "skill" as much as you want, it doesn't change anything.
It really isn't terribly hard to limit macroing in a skill based progression. Simply award no skill up for actions that are trivial. For example, you cannot level up your dagger on a mob whose defence skill is sorely outclassed by your dagger skill. You need to continually search for new opponents to challenge yourself.
The same would apply to magic. For offensive magic, the skill up is based on the resistances of the mob you are casting at. No more shooting at the sky. For healing magic, it only counts if it actually heals damage.
For the harvesting skills, assign difficulty values to resources. If a resource is at the stage where you can harvest succesfully every time, no skill up.
wowgilder isnt terribly hard to use either.
Not sure about wotlk, but I know it will get u up to 70 in relatively short time.
You're trying to say shooting MM in the air for hours is using skill instead of leveling? You can try use the word "skill" as much as you want, it doesn't change anything.
I really like this part about the games defense. it takes skill to point at nothing. i mean there is so much to point at that finding that space of nothing requires dedication! as I said before I think most here are simply trying to hide behind their ability to macro and keep it that way.
other than maybe very low skills poitning at the air shouldnt give you skill. anybody can practice firing a crossbow into the air to get used to the mechanics of said crossbow. after that only hitting something and actually getting used to targetting is the way skill increases (talking IRL here). People arguing skill gains from no targets are realistic should wake up to this point.
and yes, it is level based! really now! say it with me, skill LEVELS are LEVELS!
I should probably end this post by once again saying I DO WANT DF TO SUCEED, I really genuinely want a nice pvp game set in a medieval persistant world thatd be just lovely. rabid fans defending everything blindly is what killed many, many mmos before, and will do in the future. everyones opinion is valid..but youve got to be able to seperate yourself from the game to try and bring yourself into objectivity.
constructive critisism isnt negative. thats why its called constructive criticism. i didnt just say' thats shit' and mostly in this thread nor have other people so no need to just call us trolls for wanting a logical discussion over the game
Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man!
Hold on. A level based game is where you get exp, for mostly killing stuff and finishing quests, and then when you ding to the next level then you can get new skills, your attribs go up and so on. These skills are usually tied to your class.
A skill based game is where either you use a skill to advance the skill or you use exp to raise a skill, any skill. The difference may be subtle but the outcome is that in skill based games you as a player have more control as to what skills you have but as in level based games you gain levels and only a limited set of skills are available to you.
Hold on. A level based game is where you get exp, for mostly killing stuff and finishing quests, and then when you ding to the next level then you can get new skills, your attribs go up and so on. These skills are usually tied to your class. A skill based game is where either you use a skill to advance the skill or you use exp to raise a skill, any skill. The difference may be subtle but the outcome is that in skill based games you as a player have more control as to what skills you have but as in level based games you gain levels and only a limited set of skills are available to you.
I really like this part about the games defense. it takes skill to point at nothing. i mean there is so much to point at that finding that space of nothing requires dedication! as I said before I think most here are simply trying to hide behind their ability to macro and keep it that way.
other than maybe very low skills poitning at the air shouldnt give you skill. anybody can practice firing a crossbow into the air to get used to the mechanics of said crossbow. after that only hitting something and actually getting used to targetting is the way skill increases (talking IRL here). People arguing skill gains from no targets are realistic should wake up to this point.
and yes, it is level based! really now! say it with me, skill LEVELS are LEVELS!
You are arguing two different points here. First of all skill levels is NOT the same as levels. Levels are not tied to any particular skill where as skill levels are, thats a major difference and the difference lies in that you as a player has control as to what skills to raise.
Then your second point is about how raising skills are done and there I agree that you should not be gaining any skill points in doing the same thing over and over again (such as hitting in the air). The skill gain should depend on the target, if there is one for said skill, and if there is none and gaining can only be done by using it without a target (such as running) then the gain should be exponential. Meaning the more you do it the less will the gain be/time.
You're trying to say shooting MM in the air for hours is using skill instead of leveling? You can try use the word "skill" as much as you want, it doesn't change anything.
I really like this part about the games defense. it takes skill to point at nothing.
Ho, dont get confused here.
Skill as in a game attribute with a numerical value attached to it.
Not skill as in that person is very good at something.
Darkfall is a skill based MMO game means the former, even thou the latter is also true.
You're trying to say shooting MM in the air for hours is using skill instead of leveling? You can try use the word "skill" as much as you want, it doesn't change anything.
I really like this part about the games defense. it takes skill to point at nothing.
Ho, dont get confused here.
Skill as in a game attribute with a numerical value attached to it.
Not skill as in that person is very good at something.
Darkfall is a skill based MMO game means the former, even thou the latter is also true.
-Darkstar
oh i knwo that darky. but its been used as a defense before lol. at poster above dark, skills have levels. whether you gain them throuhg exp/using or random luck. not only that but its very defined levels. yes to whoever said getting one more point shud result in 0.42323 more dps thats kinda like how it is in real life isnt it. get stronger, hit harder. hit more get better at hitting. dividing up the outoput gains introduces intrinsic level based gameplay. argue semantics all you like you wont change anything
Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man!
Comments
The game at its core is level based, I have tried and tried to convince fanbois of this time and time again, but they lack any shred of commen since. granted its skill levels and you can choose what it is you level but its still Levels. If it were not level based there would be no levels. There will be levels in every single MMO there has to be a way to advance. Otherwise it will be just like FPS games, fun for a few months then your bored of it.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Exactly.. And people should treat it as such..
it should be treated and judged by what it was and still is advertised as.
edit: any way i LOVE the people trying to justify macroing through realism. grow some balls and admit you are going to macro it to the max. if you can whack a spell into the air and gain points why cant you flail your sword wildly until you also magically gain points.
anybody care to adress the horrendous amounts of calculations done client side? really? any takers? just going to sit and take it i suppose. ready for how many cheaters that will bring to the game? please, please save yoursleves the embaressment if you think of saying no-one will cheat and it will get dealt with.
beta testers are very open about how they cheated and nothing came of it. if AV were really on the ball they would have stopped the cheats working but left the cheaters in to come up with new ones to fix them too..but alas no reports of bans or even basic cheats that stopped working
no-one for the running on the spot exploit? do you guys just want an exploit fest is that where the crucial differnce between fanboys and people are? i really want this game to succeed, im not mindlessly bashing it, but obviously flaws are just that.
i said before and i really think its 100% true, nobody on the DF team has played an mmo since they started work on DF
That's just idiotic.
A game should be judged based upon it's release state and progression after that. Not on what some percieve as advertisement. Not on hype built up by both haters and fans alike. Not on the perception that the game is something other then what it is. You can't fault the devs for others declaring it to be the second coming of UO when the devs themselves never claimed it to be such. The FAQ is still up and is still essentially accurate to what the beta testers have been saying, and the videos have shown.
People following the game declared it a sandbox, not Av as far as I've seen. At least I haven't seen it billed as a sandbox on thier official site.
In fact what I found on thier official site is: the focus of the game is kingdom building, clan warfare, and conquest.
The game hasn't released yet; people are still judging it on beta impressions. They are judging it on content that isn't available because the player base hasn't made it yet because there isn't a player base, just a couple thousand beta previewers.
How does anyone know how the economy is going to work before the player base is put in to create it. How does anyone know how crafting is going to shape up until the player base is put in place to harvest the mats. How is anyone supposed to know what matts are actually out there until the playerbase is in place to fully explore the world and find the mats.
The playerbase needs to be in place to actually find the recipies.
No, I'm not expecting a miracle patch, but I am expecting content that just isn't available because it requires a playerbase in place to actually utilize it. A few beta reviewers who have only 1 to 3 weeks of experience in game giving thier impressions is NOT the extent of the game.
Everyone sees only mana missiles in videos because everyone running around is doing on the base stuff and hasn't been able to get to the more advances spells and skills. They haven't crafted the more advanced armors and weapons.
My impression has been that the beta has been limited and thank god. It wouldn't do much good to upon up the entire game so that couple thousand people can figure out how to aquire everything before the actual playerbase is put in place at release. It would give a lot of people an unfair advantage.
And no, most betas do not open up the entire game to the testers prior to release. Most keep a good portion of the game blocked off and only allow the testers to test specific aspects. You don't need the testers to have access to all of the skills and abilities prior to release because balancing is an ongoing thing in an MMO.
This is just my impression though. Perhaps it's wrong, but something tells me that we haven't seen all of the game and that there is a good chunk that those in beta haven't had access to. We'll have to wait and see when the game is released and people have had time to actually explore it; at which time we'll have had adiquate information and experience to actually judge the game appropriately.
I really wish MMO's would quit doing open betas.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Best to ignore this thread and those that agree with the OP. They simply have no idea what the difference between skill based and level based. Hence this thread.
Even someone with basic understanding of either system knows the difference.
Move on and pick another battle to fight this one isn't worth the effort or the time lol.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Best to ignore this thread and those that agree with the OP. They simply have no idea what the difference between skill based and level based. Hence this thread.
Even someone with basic understanding of either system knows the difference.
Move on and pick another battle to fight this one isn't worth the effort or the time lol.
Yeah ur probably right. Its just argument for arguments sake.
Ofcourse u can call the individual skill thresholds for levels within the skills, but it is irrelevant when we are referring to the overall progress design of the game.
Wow has levels, and the whole game is designed around that, while Darkfall has skills that u progress and the game is designed around that.
Its a simple distinction really, but some people...
-Darkstar
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Best to ignore this thread and those that agree with the OP. They simply have no idea what the difference between skill based and level based. Hence this thread.
Even someone with basic understanding of either system knows the difference.
Move on and pick another battle to fight this one isn't worth the effort or the time lol.
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How many levels of Wrong is this post??
DEFINE MMORPG. Massively Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING GAME.
It makes a LOT more sense for their to be NO levels in a role playing game. You DO NOT NEED progression, get that out of your head. Progression doesn't make a game, sure, it might be how you measure success, but the way you put RPG states that you require growth, that is a LIE. You play a role in a game. ROLE, no where does progression work into that.
But that's really beside the point.. Darkfall is a level based game.. there has never been an MMORPG that didn't use a level progression setting. You run, your run skill increased to a different LEVEL. You swing a sword, your sword skill increases to a different level.
From the sounds of it, Asheron's Call was less of a level based game then Darkfall is. In AC, you might be able to force a spell with item magic skill of 180 (level 5s) Or even 160.. but you in Darkfall, there is no way to access the next power level of the spell at skill level 24..
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so basically i have to lvl a skill at a time ? so isnt that worse than character lvl 'ing ? atleast when i lvl a character all my skills get lvl'ed
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Skill based means that only skills used level.
Those skills still have levels but the overall character development is not level based. The skills themselves are.
Some would just rather twist and confuse the mechanics to make the sound like something they are not. The game isn't level based, the skills are.
Regardless of how those skills increase, whether it be through a soft cap system or a point for point system, it's still based if you can only level that skill through use.
If by level based you mean that as your character levels so do to all of the skills that character posses. Then no, DF is not level based.
People are arguing over symantics here.
UO is still level based as each skill gains a single point that point is a level and that skill improves.
You really have no clue what you're talking about...
It's only worse if you prefer to have your characters development laid out for you. If you prefer a template type developement where everytime you level you level everything then I supposed a skill based system would be worse.
If you prefore open ended character development where you pick and choose what skills and abilities to level then no, it's not worse.
You can't really say that one is better then the other. I prefer a skill based system because I like being able to mold my character however I see fit. I don't like following a template and being stuck in a specific role throught the life of my character. My wow mage will never be able to use warlock spells and my hunter will never be able to use rogue abilities.
It's not about better or worse. It's about prefence. You either like one, the other, or both, but personal preference doesn't make one any better then the next.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Because we are talking about the "traditional sense".
There are two kinds of MMOs, those where the players have to level up their character and those where the player has to skill up his abilities.
That is the distinction, what ur talking about isnt technically wrong, it just has nothing to do with what ppl mean when they say Skill based or level based.
-Darkstar
I can't see the big deal really.
It would be illogical to make skills incrementally more powerful every percentage point that they went up.
My two handed sword skill went up from 22 to 23. So now I do .087543 more damage?
It was my understanding that Aventurine wanted to limit the disparities between new players and vets, and in theory, a player with two handed sword 25 could go head to head with a player who had the same skill at level 100 (or whatever the cap is). Player skill was supposed to make it possible for the lower skill level player to win.
If this premise is true, there's not a lot of room to work with so it doesn't make sense to increment power each point.
Also, players need to have a sense of achievement. If the power went up each point, I'll bet few players would be able to tell the difference.
The way its set up now, there's a noticiable difference between SP's 24 and 25, so players feel the burn as it were.
Now this really isn't the same as 'levels' in the traditional sense.
In a game like DAOC, I can be a level 50 player and use a wooden stick and totally destroy a level 10 player no matter what he's holding. My character level alone gives me god-like abilities beyond the mere lowbie, (heck, in DAOC, a level 50 can pretty much destroy a level 47 or lower, player talent being even remotely similar)
So I think the OP is splitting hairs when saying the DF has 'levels'. Not in the traditional sense IMO.
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Yeah ur probably right. Its just argument for arguments sake.
Ofcourse u can call the individual skill thresholds for levels within the skills, but it is irrelevant when we are referring to the overall progress design of the game.
Wow has levels, and the whole game is designed around that, while Darkfall has skills that u progress and the game is designed around that.
Its a simple distinction really, but some people...
-Darkstar
You are stupid for trying to convince yourself of what is not. You want it to be something that it is not if what the OP is saying is true.
Technicaly every game is a level based game. Wether it be everytime you attack something with your sword and gain "points" in that skill, you just leveled up. As long as there is a difference in your character from one skill to the next time you use it, there is a level. Darkfall is a level based game just like EVERY other mmo. No matter how you try twist it, this is what it is.
Doesn't matter though, out of every single fanboy you are the worst and have never accepted anything anyone has to say on any thread beyond greatness from this game.
It really isn't terribly hard to limit macroing in a skill based progression. Simply award no skill up for actions that are trivial. For example, you cannot level up your dagger on a mob whose defence skill is sorely outclassed by your dagger skill. You need to continually search for new opponents to challenge yourself.
The same would apply to magic. For offensive magic, the skill up is based on the resistances of the mob you are casting at. No more shooting at the sky. For healing magic, it only counts if it actually heals damage.
For the harvesting skills, assign difficulty values to resources. If a resource is at the stage where you can harvest succesfully every time, no skill up.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Because we are talking about the "traditional sense".
There are two kinds of MMOs, those where the players have to level up their character and those where the player has to skill up his abilities.
That is the distinction, what ur talking about isnt technically wrong, it just has nothing to do with what ppl mean when they say Skill based or level based.
-Darkstar
Your wrong. The difference is one is leveling up your character. The other is leveling up his skills. You're trying to say shooting MM in the air for hours is using skill instead of leveling? You can try use the word "skill" as much as you want, it doesn't change anything.
Character levels are not the same as numerical value in levels.
-Darkstar
Ok so its not the traditional level based game, but its still level based, I fail to understand how people can say that its not level based when there are skill levels.
Its like saying your not a homo sapien your a human. Its the same thing just differnt lagnuages. character level vs skill level same thing just a diferent twist. I am sorry but anything with a numerical value representing something is a level.
Because we are talking about the "traditional sense".
There are two kinds of MMOs, those where the players have to level up their character and those where the player has to skill up his abilities.
That is the distinction, what ur talking about isnt technically wrong, it just has nothing to do with what ppl mean when they say Skill based or level based.
-Darkstar
Your wrong. The difference is one is leveling up your character. The other is leveling up his skills. You're trying to say shooting MM in the air for hours is using skill instead of leveling? You can try use the word "skill" as much as you want, it doesn't change anything.
No im not wrong.
These are simple MMO distinctions.
-Darkstar
wowgilder isnt terribly hard to use either.
Not sure about wotlk, but I know it will get u up to 70 in relatively short time.
-Darkstar
I really like this part about the games defense. it takes skill to point at nothing. i mean there is so much to point at that finding that space of nothing requires dedication! as I said before I think most here are simply trying to hide behind their ability to macro and keep it that way.
other than maybe very low skills poitning at the air shouldnt give you skill. anybody can practice firing a crossbow into the air to get used to the mechanics of said crossbow. after that only hitting something and actually getting used to targetting is the way skill increases (talking IRL here). People arguing skill gains from no targets are realistic should wake up to this point.
and yes, it is level based! really now! say it with me, skill LEVELS are LEVELS!
I should probably end this post by once again saying I DO WANT DF TO SUCEED, I really genuinely want a nice pvp game set in a medieval persistant world thatd be just lovely. rabid fans defending everything blindly is what killed many, many mmos before, and will do in the future. everyones opinion is valid..but youve got to be able to seperate yourself from the game to try and bring yourself into objectivity.
constructive critisism isnt negative. thats why its called constructive criticism. i didnt just say' thats shit' and mostly in this thread nor have other people so no need to just call us trolls for wanting a logical discussion over the game
Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man!
Hold on. A level based game is where you get exp, for mostly killing stuff and finishing quests, and then when you ding to the next level then you can get new skills, your attribs go up and so on. These skills are usually tied to your class.
A skill based game is where either you use a skill to advance the skill or you use exp to raise a skill, any skill. The difference may be subtle but the outcome is that in skill based games you as a player have more control as to what skills you have but as in level based games you gain levels and only a limited set of skills are available to you.
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-Darkstar
I really like this part about the games defense. it takes skill to point at nothing. i mean there is so much to point at that finding that space of nothing requires dedication! as I said before I think most here are simply trying to hide behind their ability to macro and keep it that way.
other than maybe very low skills poitning at the air shouldnt give you skill. anybody can practice firing a crossbow into the air to get used to the mechanics of said crossbow. after that only hitting something and actually getting used to targetting is the way skill increases (talking IRL here). People arguing skill gains from no targets are realistic should wake up to this point.
and yes, it is level based! really now! say it with me, skill LEVELS are LEVELS!
You are arguing two different points here. First of all skill levels is NOT the same as levels. Levels are not tied to any particular skill where as skill levels are, thats a major difference and the difference lies in that you as a player has control as to what skills to raise.
Then your second point is about how raising skills are done and there I agree that you should not be gaining any skill points in doing the same thing over and over again (such as hitting in the air). The skill gain should depend on the target, if there is one for said skill, and if there is none and gaining can only be done by using it without a target (such as running) then the gain should be exponential. Meaning the more you do it the less will the gain be/time.
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I really like this part about the games defense. it takes skill to point at nothing.
Ho, dont get confused here.
Skill as in a game attribute with a numerical value attached to it.
Not skill as in that person is very good at something.
Darkfall is a skill based MMO game means the former, even thou the latter is also true.
-Darkstar
I really like this part about the games defense. it takes skill to point at nothing.
Ho, dont get confused here.
Skill as in a game attribute with a numerical value attached to it.
Not skill as in that person is very good at something.
Darkfall is a skill based MMO game means the former, even thou the latter is also true.
-Darkstar
oh i knwo that darky. but its been used as a defense before lol. at poster above dark, skills have levels. whether you gain them throuhg exp/using or random luck. not only that but its very defined levels. yes to whoever said getting one more point shud result in 0.42323 more dps thats kinda like how it is in real life isnt it. get stronger, hit harder. hit more get better at hitting. dividing up the outoput gains introduces intrinsic level based gameplay. argue semantics all you like you wont change anything
Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man!