Crafting: The Mechanic that Time Forgot?

Gazimoff

Firstly, I aplogise humbly for the length of this post. I endeavour to keep things short and to the point, but alas brevity is elusive. That said, let me introduce the bafflement I have observed.

My introduction to the MMO genre was in the (now renamed) Horizons: Empire of Istaria. Although not without it's problems, one of the aspects I found so appealing was the crafting aspect. A number of proffesions were available, each with their own specialisations. You even had stonemasons and architects able to construct elaborate buildings such as shops and halls, leaving a lasting imprint on the game world like some intricate digital graffiti stating to the playerbase that "I was Here". For someone such as myself, brought up on a diet of Lego and Meccano, being able to indulge in this side of me was incredibly satisfying. If I desired I could venture out into the world and perform heroic feats, but sometimes I preffered to just gather materials, cart them back to my homestead and craft various useful items. It provided a way for me to choose what type of fun I wanted to have while still playing the same game and chatting to the same circle of friends. It was, at the time, a Good Thing. Since then I've heard stories from players experienced in Star Wars: Galaxies or EVE, stating that their own crafting experiences were similar and that they themselves extracted a large amount of enjoyment from them as a result.

But can the same be said of more "mainstream" MMO offerings? When one digs into a game such as World of Warcraft, one can't help but feel slightly underwhelmed by the crafting abilities available. Should a player wish to partake in every crafting possibility the game offers, they require a number of characters at a high enough level to be able to gain access to most of the recipies. Even then that isn't the end, with some plans, patterns, schematics or formulae tucked away in the back of some heavily defended raid dungeon. To be fair to Blizzard though, at least an effort has been made to cater for this aspect. Some games such as Warhammer provide even fewer crafting options. Others may choose to discard the mechanic entirely, streamlining gameplay into what is felt to be critical to the game. Such a spectrum of choice to me is as puzzling as it is baffling, which is why I now pose the question.

So, dear Forumites, I hand this one over to you. Do you feel that crafting as a mechanic is gradually falling out of favour? Do you forsee a time when almost all items will either be looted or bought, with no resource gathering or crafting required? Or do you see that crafting should be reated as a niche, much in the same way that PVP can be either be a heavy focus or ignored completely? Do you think that there is a trend away from the complex crafting capabilities to something that is simpler and more straightforward? Or perhaps you have a different view, something that in my haste to type this I may have missed?

Whatever your reason, I would be most interested to hear your opinions on this. And once again, apologies for the long post and my thanks for battling through my outdated mannerisms and syntax.

CactusmanX

I think crafting is losing favour because no game has really made it that interesting, you either farm materials and follow recipes to make items or in more complex crafting games you farm materials to follow more flexible recipes to make items, but either way they both rely on lots repetitive tasks and only appeal to a few people.

If crafting were actually about being creative, not just combining different materials to give items different stats, but also about visual creativity, so that players feel more like designers and less like labourers, you might renew interest.

Vrika

I don't think that crafting is forgotten, it's just adapted to the present situation. Most of the gamers really don't want to spend huge time gathering resources, or use a crafting system so complex they couldn't remember it by heart. They want to kill mobs, and games like WoW offer them just that, killing mobs and crafting as a side-entertainment while killing.

There's always a place for those games with really deep crafting for the crafting fans, but I think WoW style simple crafting or even no real crafting at all is the way of the future.

Z3R01

Crafting has become no more then a side profession these days.

Players no longer want to invest thousands of hours into a craft.

These days players would rather just take them up as a side job, easily level the skill and make a nice item for him/herself.

They don't want to be master crafters, they don't want a game where the majority of the items are crafted.

Crafting to these players is a grind, they would rather fight and run dungeons or quest all day.

I'm sorry friend but the days of UO,SWG and Eves depth of crafting are virtually over.

Only a handful of indy games still carry on the Depth of crafting we crave and the MMO communities are so picky games like these die. Look at Ryzom it has one of the best crafting systems yet about 5k players play this game (at the most).

Even darkfall from reading all the reviews seems to have a simplified crafting system.........

 

Quizzical

The number of players who like combat greatly exceeds the number who like crafting.  As such, many games have combat without crafting, or with only a token crafting system that is only something stupid to grind levels in.

There are still games with good crafting systems, but I'd be rather skeptical of any claim that that was ever the norm. 

xbellx777

crafting is not as important to the game as it used to be imo. all the new games dont require you to craft at all and i think that the developers just make it for players to do off to the side. i have never really been that big into crafting but i think it is an important part of mmo's, the ablility to make things yourself and sell them. to me it creates a more immersive environment. maybe some mmo will come out soon that will make crafting more relevent to the game and have it pay bigger dividends than it does now it some games (like war). idk just ranting

Loke666

Crafting have always sucked.

First of all, crafting is all about boring grind. You grind for resources and then you grind in some games for the crafting in itself. Boring.

Secondly the focus is on how you make the item, not the item in itself.

I want the crafting to be like when you create your character. You get a certain number of points which you can use on stuff like damage, durability, magic, effects and so on.

Then you make a skin by combing options like hilt, blade and so on, 3 to 5 of them is good. You chose the colour of each part and have the option to add gems that you actually see in the game to the item also. And the more skill you have, the more skins you chose from. You could also add if you failed so the item got 1 or more part odd looking.

The old system where everyone made the same looking item might have been a good idea in UO but with todays graphics it just plain sucks.

 

Another thing that suck is gathering. Like mining. It would take months to be able to make a knife from hacking out small pieces of rock in the open, they had copper mines already in the stone age and that is the only good way to get metal.

And skinning, really, I need to kill 10 mamoths to get a piece of leather for a belt? Almost all leather are coming from domestic animals and so have it been since people started to keep animals.

The whole system of nodes is kinda boring too, I would like to see herbs spawn like shinys in EQ2, that would work. You can collest herbs, fish, meat and so on but most of the stuff should really be bought from farmers and mines. It is just the same old boring timesink in every game.

I can buy that you can use a specific monster part to make something from (boss monster preferably), and in my system you could get a extra skin possible for something crafted with that part, like a dragon scale armour.

There is so much fun you could do with crafting...

Loke666

Originally posted by Quizzical


The number of players who like combat greatly exceeds the number who like crafting.  As such, many games have combat without crafting, or with only a token crafting system that is only something stupid to grind levels in.
There are still games with good crafting systems, but I'd be rather skeptical of any claim that that was ever the norm. 

 

Duh, that is because they made crafting so boring. It is kinda like having people to chose between a coke and some muddy water, everyone takes the coke then.

If they made crafting really fun a lot more would do it.

Z3R01

Originally posted by Loke666


Crafting have always sucked.
First of all, crafting is all about boring grind. You grind for resources and then you grind in some games for the crafting in itself. Boring.
Secondly the focus is on how you make the item, not the item in itself.
I want the crafting to be like when you create your character. You get a certain number of points which you can use on stuff like damage, durability, magic, effects and so on.
Then you make a skin by combing options like hilt, blade and so on, 3 to 5 of them is good. You chose the colour of each part and have the option to add gems that you actually see in the game to the item also. And the more skill you have, the more skins you chose from. You could also add if you failed so the item got 1 or more part odd looking.
The old system where everyone made the same looking item might have been a good idea in UO but with todays graphics it just plain sucks.
 
Another thing that suck is gathering. Like mining. It would take months to be able to make a knife from hacking out small pieces of rock in the open, they had copper mines already in the stone age and that is the only good way to get metal.
And skinning, really, I need to kill 10 mamoths to get a piece of leather for a belt? Almost all leather are coming from domestic animals and so have it been since people started to keep animals.
The whole system of nodes is kinda boring too, I would like to see herbs spawn like shinys in EQ2, that would work. You can collest herbs, fish, meat and so on but most of the stuff should really be bought from farmers and mines. It is just the same old boring timesink in every game.
I can buy that you can use a specific monster part to make something from (boss monster preferably), and in my system you could get a extra skin possible for something crafted with that part, like a dragon scale armour.
There is so much fun you could do with crafting...

 

Good post.

To think instead of evolving the gathering/crafting mechanic these new mmos sent it back to the stone age.

 

Arekaine

Yeah I was all about the crafting in Horizons too. Had a lvl 100 adult dragon that could craft pretty much anything I wanted. But I agree. That system of grind this amount to make this many items to gain this much XP is over done and dying. Maybe someday some drvs will sit down and come up with a fresh new crafting design system that will make people want to craft again by letting them create their own brands, styles etc etc, Untill then I will just kill things

Quizzical

Originally posted by Loke666
 
Duh, that is because they made crafting so boring. It is kinda like having people to chose between a coke and some muddy water, everyone takes the coke then.
If they made crafting really fun a lot more would do it.

 

Games built primarily around crafting have always been niche games.  There have been a handful of games that did crafting pretty well.

If a lot of people really want to do something, and no game does it really well, but some games do a passable job of it, quite a few people will play the games that do a passable job.  Consider, for example, PvP in MMORPGs.  It's a lot easier to find a good crafting game than a good PvP game, but there are a lot more people who play games for PvP than for crafting.

Nicrox

There are alot of crafters who are looking for mmo's with creative crafting systems but can't find them. Most crafters will say that swg had one of the best crafting systems in any mmo. But with anything in life you have players who are only casual players that whine that they don't have enough time to invest into crafting if they like it. Then you have players with little or no attention span which demeans crafting altogether.

What it really comes down to is the fastest way too make in game monies...killing mobs or crafting.

Loke666

Originally posted by Quizzical
Games built primarily around crafting have always been niche games.  There have been a handful of games that did crafting pretty well.
If a lot of people really want to do something, and no game does it really well, but some games do a passable job of it, quite a few people will play the games that do a passable job.  Consider, for example, PvP in MMORPGs.  It's a lot easier to find a good crafting game than a good PvP game, but there are a lot more people who play games for PvP than for crafting.

 

It doesn't have to evolve around crafting but crafting should still be fun. The only fun in most games are killing stuff and maybe exploring. That is not enough, there are so many other fun stuff you could do in a game.

And you don't have to cut down on combat as crafting always is a optional thing.

As I see it, there is no really fun crafting in any game. You at least have a few games with fun PvP like Guildwars.

In some games crafted items are good and in other bad but the fact is still that it is always boring to make them, and consist only of grind.

nariusseldon

Originally posted by Nicrox


There are alot of crafters who are looking for mmo's with creative crafting systems but can't find them. Most crafters will say that swg had one of the best crafting systems in any mmo. But with anything in life you have players who are only casual players that whine that they don't have enough time to invest into crafting if they like it. Then you have players with little or no attention span which demeans crafting altogether.
What it really comes down to is the fastest way too make in game monies...killing mobs or crafting.

 

It boils down to which activity people find more fun. The fact that combat oriented game is so popular (if u include all the shooters, all the action RPGs like Diablo and so on ...) , I would say players want combat >>>>> crafting.

I know of no one, including myself, who would want to just craft. MMORPG is about power & hack-n-slash these days. When I craft, I care about the end result (the item), not the crafting process itself. And it is difficult to design a fun crafting experience. There is really little to be done except some mini games. You will never get the thrill of combat.

TidusR

I do enjoy crafting in its current form, but as has been said it would be more fun If people used mini games and depending on how well you are at them, changes the quality of the item.

Loke666

Originally posted by nariusseldo
It boils down to which activity people find more fun. The fact that combat oriented game is so popular (if u include all the shooters, all the action RPGs like Diablo and so on ...) , I would say players want combat >>>>> crafting.
I know of no one, including myself, who would want to just craft. MMORPG is about power & hack-n-slash these days. When I craft, I care about the end result (the item), not the crafting process itself. And it is difficult to design a fun crafting experience. There is really little to be done except some mini games. You will never get the thrill of combat.

 

You didn't read my first post about how to make it fun?

But no, you will never risk dying with crafting, but designing a very specific item would be very fun in itself. Like a specific armor part made for a specific person. 

Have the person you are doing it for pop up as a model in the crafting program, and then build the armour on him chosing from many small parts and colour them to look just right. This is not something I would like to do 100% of the time but I could do it 20% or so and have very fun doing it.

Minigames wont work since they will also be a grind and it is grinding that is boring, and this go for both combat and crafting.

Loke666

Originally posted by TidusR


I do enjoy crafting in its current form, but as has been said it would be more fun If people used mini games and depending on how well you are at them, changes the quality of the item.

 

Eq2 and Vanguard already have that, it get's really boring when you made it a few hundred times...

nariusseldon

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by nariusseldo
It boils down to which activity people find more fun. The fact that combat oriented game is so popular (if u include all the shooters, all the action RPGs like Diablo and so on ...) , I would say players want combat >>>>> crafting.
I know of no one, including myself, who would want to just craft. MMORPG is about power & hack-n-slash these days. When I craft, I care about the end result (the item), not the crafting process itself. And it is difficult to design a fun crafting experience. There is really little to be done except some mini games. You will never get the thrill of combat.

 

You didn't read my first post about how to make it fun?

But no, you will never risk dying with crafting, but designing a very specific item would be very fun in itself. Like a specific armor part made for a specific person. 

Have the person you are doing it for pop up as a model in the crafting program, and then build the armour on him chosing from many small parts and colour them to look just right. This is not something I would like to do 100% of the time but I could do it 20% or so and have very fun doing it.

Minigames wont work since they will also be a grind and it is grinding that is boring, and this go for both combat and crafting.

 

Fun for you .. but not for most people. I don't want to design an item. I want to kill monster to get cool items. See .. two different views. Developers count up which view has more players .. and we all know the results.

Loira

One thing that I alway thought could really make crafting more worthwhile was Player/Guild Housing.  Hear me out for a couple while I explain.

Flash back to DAOC.  Player Housing was in a seperate zone.  The more money you made you could get a bigger house and even get more houses if you want.  Now picture a system like this where you start the game with a cart or maybe in a shared housing barracks like structure.  You can choose what craft you want to do, but lets use cultivating and skinning for example.

First you start in this small barrack or with a small cart that you can only grow a few things at a time.  You go to the vendor or kill a few mobs and get some seeds and plant your crops.  You grow the few plants you can and the harvest them for the herb.  You use the herbs to make a few potions that you can then sell.  You do this for awhile and make some money and then you can afford a bigger house.  You get more land you can grow more thing to make more stuff to make some more money to get a bigger house.

Yoou can follow this same thing for all gathering professions.  Skinning and butchering you have a farm.  Mining you have a small mine. Ect Ect

when you get better at your profession you can grow new things, get new more and new exotic animals, you can get bigger mines that have new materials in them.

For that actual crafting you can add to your house to have newer, better looms, forges, alchemy tables, ect, ect.

You can even add an experimental thing like the way WAR's crafting is that you can pick random stuff to combine and make new recipes based on your experiments.  You could then sell these recipies to other for profit. 

This system could easily be coverted to a scf-fi based game, much the way Eve is.  In Eve you start with a small ammount of money and you can buy stuff to make some basic stuff, rent a factory, make the item, sell it to make money, then slowly build up to have several factories and making bigger and better stuff. 

 

Just a thought

Quizzical

Originally posted by Loke666
Minigames wont work since they will also be a grind and it is grinding that is boring, and this go for both combat and crafting.

 

Click on a button to combine items, wait a few seconds, and you're done could almost be taken as the canonical example of grinding.  So far, that seems to be the alternative to minigames.

Cleffy

I think its smart to not include crafting at first if at all in an mmo.  With MMOs now reaching $100 million in budget.  Adding on many systems and doing them poorly is not a proper means to success.  You really have to do 1 thing really well to have a chance, and then add on those extras if you can do them just as good.

Although I would love crafting in a mmo, I wouldn't want to play one using a crappy system.

skeaser

Hate to hijack, but I tried Istaria at one point and this game seems to be everything that we've forgotten.

I would love to see a well done game in the vein of Istaria, I loved the entire concept, but the implementation wasn't there. Most of all I really liked the dragon class mechanics.

stayontarget

Now days players only want to reach end game as fast as they can so crafting is a no go for them.  Funny thing is when they do hit end game they realize they need crafted goods in order to compete. And they all hate crafters because they have all the best gear and gold.

Waterlily

WoW's crafting is a bit underwhelmed, nod. It is profitable though, I'll give them that. In many game crafting is useless unless you're a price gauger and know the market, or simply bots have cornered the market. I craft casually in most games usually, just to try it out, some of my friends are pure crafters though, they play MMO just to craft oO, which is cool.

demc

This is just my observation of several games and crafting progression.

In Dark Age of Camelot in the beginning of the game before all the big changes you took on one craft to become legendary at and stuck with it. The end result was the best item in the game came from your craft. As time progressed the game developers added new recipes and a lot of items to keep the crafter happy. However the raiders soon started complaining and loot tables started to change slightly so equal powerful items could be obtained elsewhere. Slowly the crafting was for 'solo and duo players' where as the best stuff to get was raided items. (ToA)Eventually the developers allowed a crafter to do EVERY craft on one character which made a few players happy but really set the tailspin on the market.

In EQ2 originally the same concept but as time progressed the crafting again took a side turn and looted items were better and in EQ2 a crafter is a profession that requires leveling just as an adventurer. End result is the same baseline as DAoC. SOE however allows only one craft and a secondary profession like Tinkering or transmuting.

AoC crafting is pure joke compared to the above as looted items are way better and that is not saying much cause looted items take a back seat to skills. Itemization in AoC and crafting are on the low end of the gameplay.

I expect that in any game there is always going to be a controversy over weather a crafter makes the best or the raid loots it. I expect that the raid method is probably going to win.

 

Moodah

with some bright exceptions, crafting is a grind in every game. Its all about gathering million resources which is a mind-numbing thing on it's own, and then using those to produce things in another mind-numbing process of watching the bar go up.

Sadly, they miss the poing of crafting entirely and what drives people to create. People who love crafting are the people who liked Lego as kids, who like fiddling with stuff, dissasembling and assembling it back. I winder why no one figured out to create basic components in a game (like lego blocks) and then give the players the option to put them together in different ways.

People that potentialy like crafting, like being creative but sadly, there is nothing creative in today's standard crafting.

Eve is on a good road with T3 ships, as they are assembled together from different parts, which imo can be a game on it's own.