With darkfall around the corner I figured I would do everyone a big favor and bust some of the so called sandbox myths for players wanting to try DF or any other sandbox game in the future. You guys know what I'm talking about. The "Sandbox mmo has no levels" myth and the "In a sandbox I can be viable at skill level 1". There's a bunch so i'm going to go over a few of the more popular ones, hopefully this will help newer players so they don't start up DF or any other sandbox and say "Hey!!! This game does have leveling!!@!!@!"
So here we go, "Sandbox MMOs don't have levels" This is completely untrue, Every mmo has levels. In a sandbox game you level up skills by doing instead of leveling an entire class you level a sword skill or a armor skill by fighting or performing your desired action. This is just like leveling in any other game, so whatever the fanbois tell you dont listen. You will grind mobs, gather or craft over and over and over just like you would in any other type of mmo.
"Sandbox Games give complete freedom, I can go to any part of the world at anytime" This is a big one, some people actually believe this. Well a sandbox gameworld is just as gated as a themepark gameworld. By gated I mean the zones have sometype of progression system, Lets say if you were skill level 1 in a sandbox you wouldn't be able to goto another zone and kill anything you wanted. The mobs would own you the same way a level 1 gets owned on his way through wetlands in WoW. So do sandbox players have complete freedom to wander their entire gameworld? nope not until they get high enough skill level to actually survive.
"In a Sandbox MMO I can be competitive at the start, Since the game has no levels I can take on a older player" WRONG!!! In a sanbox MMO if you are an hour old and you decide to fight a much older player, if that player is also skilled in combat you will die 100% of the time. It's just like fighting a level 1 with a level 40 in WAR. You get owned and there's nothing you could do about it.
"In a Sandbox If I wanted to be just a crafter I could and I wouldn't need to level combat" Now this one is actually true but does anyone playing these games actually do this???? nope! Maybe with an Alt. You can stay in a major city and level up crafting while funded by a combat alt even then you still actually leveled combat didnt ya? If a new player wants to gather and craft he will need sometype of defensive combat skills to survive the mobs and players that will attack him while he/she is doing he/shes thing. So can you as a new player actually be a gatherer/crafter without leveling combat? Sure but I wouldn't suggest doing that at all.
Well thats all for now, I'm sure I'll think of some more later. Before you flame me for being a sandbox hater, I'm not. I play Eve and ryzom and you really can't get anymore sandbox then those games unless you some how go back in a time machine and continued to play UO and SWG before they were changed into the sucky products they are today.
"Sandbox MMOs don't have levels" - Well, some DO have levels. And Yes, all of them DO have SOME sort of grind.
But I need to clarify one thing. You are saying that you are posting this so new players are not misled, but YOU are misleading them as well.
Truth is, most of them DONT have levels. But this has nothing to do with what you discussed.
The topic you mentioned is Sandbox MMO's dont have levels. Where in that statement does it say anything about a grind??
An MMO does NOT need levels to have a grind.
I have not EVER seen anyone say that ANY MMO did not have some sort of grind. This topic you bring up seems like you are just looking for something to mention so that you could back up your point...
You should change that myth from dont have levels, do "sandbox MMO's dont have a grind", and it would make more sense.
"Sandbox Games give complete freedom, I can go to any part of the world at anytime"
Again, your description of this one is midleading to any new players reading this. I really do not believe you are doing this for the new players, as much as your mentioning this as an attempted jab at fanboys.
That said, there IS a huge difference of how progression works in sandbox games, and you would be foolish to truely deny it.
In games like WoW, if your level 15, there is typically only one zone for you in each racial zone. Thats where you go. When you hit 20-25 youll move on to the next one, which is typically right next to the last one.
In Sandbox games, the first difference is there are far more options. And more open up as you level.
This is because of another major difference - when you progress past certain NPC's, they STILL give XP or Skill points. In WoW, you out level a zone and its useless. In Sandbox games, this does not happen. You still get the same things from the mobs as you did earlier. Take AC for example, a certain type of area will give you lets say 5k XP per kill if your level 10. If your level 100, it will still give 5k XP per kill. This means the higher level you get, the MORE options open up. In non-sandboxes you are restricted to only the areas in your level range.
Also, there is a signifcant difference because there is more of a risk vs reward factor. You may not be able to kill an NPC that is FAR FAR above you, but you CAN have a chance on many things that are much higher. Take AC again for example - if you hit the enemy or not directly related to your attack skill vs their defense skill. If your magic and you fight an enemy with low magic defense, you can beat them even if they are WAY higher level then you. Sure they will hit hard, but you can be avoidant and do other things to get around that.
Furthermore, it establishes a sense of community more in sandboxes. You can get some crazy gear on that character and take out things that you normally wouldnt until at least 3x the level you are. In AC again, if you give yourself good gear ul be takin out mobs u normally wouldnt until lvl 20-30 at level ONE. The reason I mentioned community - if you make a friend (or have a Vassal system like AC) they can assist you. Give a new lvl 1 player some buffs, and they will 1-shot mobs that they wouldnt be fighting till lvl 30. They can get from lvl 1-3 or 4 in 1 single kill as well.
You can not do anything of those sorts in non-sandbox games.
Long story short, many times you will never know if you could take an enemy or not without trying in sandboxes. In WoW you can tell simply by targeting them.
Finally, the spawn points are comppletely different. There are far more options, the spawn areas are much more open. They DO NOT progress by levels all of the time. You will often see a bunch of easy mobs around some very high ones as well. It is a more natural spawn system. If you were walking thru the wild IRL, you would see a variety of animals. You may see a squirrel, a deer, or a bear. In a WoW-style game, youll see a crap load of squirrels. Keep going and youll see deers all over. Keep going youll see bears all over.
The worst part of non-sandboxes in comparison is that you dont have that risk vs reward though. You will have no chance on anything darker then an orange no matter what. THey have bonus dmg jus cuz ur lower, you have reduced dmg, they hit u more u hit them less, and most of the time they will 1-2 hit you. In sandboxes, this rarely ever happens. Even if its out of your league, it deals damage based on its weapons, it does not get bonus damage jus because its bigger then you.
"In a Sandbox MMO I can be competitive at the start, Since the game has no levels I can take on a older player"
Again, I do not belive your saying this one is for now players because you are STILL misleading them.
Noone ever siad you could start a game and be able to SOLO a very high level player.
What people DO say is you can actually HIT and HURT a player higher then you.
In WoW, attack a level 80 as a noob. Even if hes a caster, you wont hit him. Even if you do manage to get thru, youll do 0 or 1 dmg no matter how much u normally do.
In sandboxes, youll still deal damage. If you normally do 30 dmg, youll still do 30 dmg.
In WoW, if you start playing an dyou have a lvl 80 friend, he wont be able to play with you until you catch up. In Sandboxes, if you have a lvl 80 friend, youll be able to group and play together all the same, and still get xp/skill points/whatever. In Eve for example, youll still deal the same dmg to a noob as a high lvl person. Also, your debuffs are just as effective.
Seems that again you are so dead-set on trying to prove people wrong, that you bend what people say, and contradict yourself when you claim to be posting this to help new players. If you were gona help new players you would take the things that players really say. Noone ever said you could solo someone much higher in any game.
Sure, you wont be taking high lvls at lvl 1, but for a realistic view of how it is, at level 40 in AC I was able to SOLO players that were like 60-90. It wasnt as easy, but it was completely possibly. If you were like 60-70 plus you had a chance on taking out pretty much anyone. Just try that in WoW and you will see the differences in sandboxes.
"In a Sandbox If I wanted to be just a crafter I could and I wouldn't need to level combat"
This one has already been discussed enough so I wont bother.
Sorry if your bothered by me disagreeing with you so much, but it just bothers me that you claim to be helping new players who are misled by peoples comments, when your misleading them just as much.
Be honest and say what your really doing - your taking a jab and fanboys, not helping new players.
Skill systems usually mean a much more shallow curve. Having 50 more points in a weapon skill will probably still make the character unbeatable, but not in the insta-wtfpwn way of having 100x damage modifier, on top of the 100x as much health, from being 50 levels higher. Then consider 5 points of skill, vs 5 levels, in your average skill and level games. So yes, but no. It does tend to be a big difference, not to have levels looming over everything so much.
"Sandbox Games give complete freedom, I can go to any part of the world at anytime"
I don't know if that really has anything to do with whether a game is a sandbox game or not. Not IMHO, anyhow. Guess it helps feel more sandbox like, the less linear the gameworld is.
"In a Sandbox MMO I can be competitive at the start, Since the game has no levels I can take on a older player"
Another exaggeration, but often in sandbox games, newer characters can at least hurt more advanced characters, while in level-based games, being higher level makes a character pretty much invulnerable. That can bring lots of other variables into play, that levels don't trump everything, giving players more of a sense of freedom. It's a matter of degrees, but in essence, a grain of truth.
"In a Sandbox If I wanted to be just a crafter I could and I wouldn't need to level combat"
Yeah, this one is pretty true. One of the most important distinctions of what makes a sandbox game, I think. It gives the player the feeling of freedom, to be what they want, so even if they do grind for combat skills, they do so knowing they could be a pure crafter, too. The more choices along those lines, the better.
Even if one's pure crafter character is just an alt, that's pretty big, too. I like having alts that just craft, and mains that can't be bothered. Helps with the feeling of role playing. I'm not much of a role player, but I like when my characters have distinct personality like that.
To me, that's the essense of the sandbox game. That characters aren't just funnelled along linear paths, but rather progressing in whatever ways make sense to them, given some idea of who I want them to be. You really need options for that, rather than a class based levelling scheme, where the character just follows along.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
"Sandbox Games give complete freedom, I can go to any part of the world at anytime" This is a big one, some people actually believe this. Well a sandbox gameworld is just as gated as a themepark gameworld. By gated I mean the zones have sometype of progression system, Lets say if you were skill level 1 in a sandbox you wouldn't be able to goto another zone and kill anything you wanted. The mobs would own you the same way a level 1 gets owned on his way through wetlands in WoW. So do sandbox players have complete freedom to wander their entire gameworld? nope not until they get high enough skill level to actually survive.
Wrong, then it's not a true sandbox. Both Oblivion and fallout 3 you can go anywhere at level 1. There is no zoned progression. The entire game progresses as you do. So this could not be done in a MMO. But if there are progression zones than it's not a true sandbox sorry.
And skill based has nothing to do with a gaming being a sandbox, that's a separate issue. Although many sandbox games are skill based they don't have to be.
To me a sandbox is a true virtual world, not necessarily one that is cut up in heavily-restrictive level-based areas. The theme park MMO is of course one where the different areas of the game are very very restricted based on level and areas are very contrived atmospherically. Tight mob spawns for certain levels, built-for-purpose areas in themeparks are very opposite of sandbox building in which things are put in for the hell of it. Interestingly though LotRO is considered a themepark, it has world-like qualities to it. I come across a lot of things in the landscape that were obviously thrown in just for recreating the feel of Middle Earth. There is a cycle of time and weather that also makes the game world 'live' more than the average themepark game. For example, the shade in Bree which is only there at night, lots of role-play elements that are there to bring flavour to the game. However, LotRO is still a themepark because the areas are tightly regulated level-wise and the storyline is Part A, then Part B, etc.
I don't equate sandboxishness to having a leveling system or having skills. If there are professions in the sandbox, I can see them as providing the ability to shape and affect the game world... not just have crafting and/or combat. In real life, you have a wide gammit of professions, so a proper virtual world should too. That to me is what also makes a sandbox different from themepark where you only have a few non-combat roles you can pick up. EvE and A Tale in the Desert are the two sandboxes that come to my mind. Both have progression but in a way that is a lot less restrictive than themeparks. I don't know about Ryzome anymore since I haven't played it in ages. SWG was great because on top of the crafting and combat professions, you also had social professions like the politician, the entertainer, bioengineers, etc.
I see these games also as not having any grand goal, whereas the themepark has a tightly structured storyline and the endgoal is reaching max level and raiding or something of that nature. In sandboxes, you get to choose your own destiny: will you be a trader who goes into fleet battles for your corp and web people in EvE? Or perhaps you'll be a mission runner who does a bit of exploration on the side...
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
Lol i love how many posters stuffed things into the OP's mouth that he did not say.
The Op never said that a sandbox game is the same as the rest of the games out there. Seriously read his post . The Op also did not mention in any way you have no freedom of choice.
the 1st myth he mentioned about progression.
Regular games have lvl progression. Sandbox games have skill progression. while both are different you are still doing quite the same. grinding to lvl or grinding to lvl a skill. How many arrows must be plucked before you can actually do considerable dmg.having 5 skill on archery will not compare to having 50 skill. you still need to grind the skill to lvl it on mobs or in pvp. Its just a different way of lvling. And of course in a sandbox game even if your skills are modest you can put up a good fight compared to a lvl60 vs a lvl 70 in non sanboxed games. Thing is you cannot deny the fact that one way or another a skill must be grinded either by use (darkfall) or by time (eve) your just lvling your skill.
the 2nd myth is about the ability to go anywhere at anytime as a newb:
While yes in eve you can go to 0.0 space in a rookie ship. That doesnt mean you can achive things in said areas. there is no way you can fend off 3 cruisers and 2 battleships. you need to progress in skill to obtain better ships and battle skills to take them on. THIS IS WHAT THE OP WAS TALKING ABOUT. not about you just cant go there. you still need to progress. there will be areas in eve that go with your skill. as you get better skills and ships, you can do to more dangrous areas and survive. The same thing will be in darkfall. I know for one a recenlty made player can wander wherever he/she pleases. But comeon if you stumble on some ruins and see some mobs that quickly make waste of you that means while you could have gone there doesnt mean you could achive somthing there. its already been mentioned that while you travel you have no idea how hard mobs can be and will learn by trail and error. So while you can go there. you simply cannot kill the mobs in that area due to low skill ect. when you get better skill and some decent equipment then you find out you can take those mobs down and achive somthing. This is what the op ment.
the 3rd myth. a newly made char can compete vs a vet. We all know this is not true. however in eve a few newbs can cripple or destroy a vet. I do not know how this will work in darkfall but there can be a chance.The Op just ment that mr newb with starter wep cannot rush at mr vet with 100 shield/ block archery and magic ,ect and melt mr vets face, it wont happen.
the 4th and final one about crafting.
The op is right, if you simply cannot accept it you know nothing about sandbox games. While yes newbs can craft yes they can if they want but combat of one sort or another will be involved.
About the eve crafter/miners : if a player wants to be just a crafter said player must have money if they do not want to mine. In order to craft better, these players must build standings with the corporation they are doing their crafting at. these missions will sometimes pit them vs the enviorment. and some can be important you cannot drop missions or lose alot of standing. If your mining, mobs do appear so you do need some sort of defence. While combat is minimum. COMBAT IS THERE. THE OP ONLY SAID YOULL NEED SOME SORT OF COMBAT NOT FULL COMBAT IN ORDER TO HARVEST/CRAFT. gawd seriously everyone learn to read.
darkfall wont be different. you will encounter mobs that will attack you while you harvest. You can stay in town and craft but that means youll need someone else to get the materials for you. that person in some way or another will in one moment engage a mob.
if your new to the game you just cannot craft off the bat. you have no resorces or money. how can you buy mats form other players. you will have to start on your own looking for what you need and in one point you will engage somthing on the way. once you do have a profit, enought to buy mats from other people and craft items to make more money to keep the cycle going, then and only then you will have no need to get involved in combat. this statement is true for any sandbox game.
now that off the side. please guys stop trying to add words to the op;s mouth that he did not mention. or stop trying to add other points that have NOTHING to do with the topic.
Once again the OP is not insulting or dissing out sandbox game's .
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Not all crafters need to gather their own resources
regardless what game you start. Remember the op is mentioning WHEN YOU JOIN A GAME. you will not have any resorces to buy the materials you need to start your craft. so you cannot build somthing from nothing. you will have to start at 1st to get somthing to make it into a profit where it can sustain you from not having to harvest again.
On depending on other players to achive your goal defeats the purpose of the 4th myth the op was explaining. you just cannot join a game and off the bat bam your crafting with NO need to touch the rest of the world.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Not all crafters need to gather their own resources
regardless what game you start. Remember the op is mentioning WHEN YOU JOIN A GAME. you will not have any resorces to buy the materials you need to start your craft. so you cannot build somthing from nothing. you will have to start at 1st to get somthing to make it into a profit where it can sustain you from not having to harvest again.
On depending on other players to achive your goal defeats the purpose of the 4th myth the op was explaining. you just cannot join a game and off the bat bam your crafting with NO need to touch the rest of the world.
You'd be surprised with what you can get away with in a game designed for it. Something like WurmOnline a vast percent of people haven't spent more than a few hours with a sword in their hands.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
You rather blew it on the 4th reply. Lots of people were only crafters in games like UO and SWG. Did not have to do any combat or very little. Maybe from your perspective that is not what you call fun, but it is to many of us. You should be able to do that in any sandbox game. Even Eve you can be strictly a crafter and nerver pvp, there are lots of things to do even in Eve as such a player.
Im aware that people that played SWG and UO were strickly crafters, this is why I said the myth was actually right.
Do SWG and UO exist today in thier old forms? nope
My reply to the fourth was more of a tip for newer players since they only really have Ryzom and Darkfall to play as on foot sandboxes atm.
Maybe SWG not in it's old form but if YOU want you can still be a full crafter with NO combat.
Overall I believe the majority simply don't want or is able to play sandbox games and most of your OP I do agree on.
Lol i love how many posters stuffed things into the OP's mouth that he did not say. The Op never said that a sandbox game is the same as the rest of the games out there. Seriously read his post . The Op also did not mention in any way you have no freedom of choice. the 1st myth he mentioned about progression. Regular games have lvl progression. Sandbox games have skill progression. while both are different you are still doing quite the same. grinding to lvl or grinding to lvl a skill. How many arrows must be plucked before you can actually do considerable dmg.having 5 skill on archery will not compare to having 50 skill. you still need to grind the skill to lvl it on mobs or in pvp. Its just a different way of lvling. And of course in a sandbox game even if your skills are modest you can put up a good fight compared to a lvl60 vs a lvl 70 in non sanboxed games. Thing is you cannot deny the fact that one way or another a skill must be grinded either by use (darkfall) or by time (eve) your just lvling your skill.
the 2nd myth is about the ability to go anywhere at anytime as a newb: While yes in eve you can go to 0.0 space in a rookie ship. That doesnt mean you can achive things in said areas. there is no way you can fend off 3 cruisers and 2 battleships. you need to progress in skill to obtain better ships and battle skills to take them on. THIS IS WHAT THE OP WAS TALKING ABOUT. not about you just cant go there. you still need to progress. there will be areas in eve that go with your skill. as you get better skills and ships, you can do to more dangrous areas and survive. The same thing will be in darkfall. I know for one a recenlty made player can wander wherever he/she pleases. But comeon if you stumble on some ruins and see some mobs that quickly make waste of you that means while you could have gone there doesnt mean you could achive somthing there. its already been mentioned that while you travel you have no idea how hard mobs can be and will learn by trail and error. So while you can go there. you simply cannot kill the mobs in that area due to low skill ect. when you get better skill and some decent equipment then you find out you can take those mobs down and achive somthing. This is what the op ment. the 3rd myth. a newly made char can compete vs a vet. We all know this is not true. however in eve a few newbs can cripple or destroy a vet. I do not know how this will work in darkfall but there can be a chance.The Op just ment that mr newb with starter wep cannot rush at mr vet with 100 shield/ block archery and magic ,ect and melt mr vets face, it wont happen.
the 4th and final one about crafting. The op is right, if you simply cannot accept it you know nothing about sandbox games. While yes newbs can craft yes they can if they want but combat of one sort or another will be involved. About the eve crafter/miners : if a player wants to be just a crafter said player must have money if they do not want to mine. In order to craft better, these players must build standings with the corporation they are doing their crafting at. these missions will sometimes pit them vs the enviorment. and some can be important you cannot drop missions or lose alot of standing. If your mining, mobs do appear so you do need some sort of defence. While combat is minimum. COMBAT IS THERE. THE OP ONLY SAID YOULL NEED SOME SORT OF COMBAT NOT FULL COMBAT IN ORDER TO HARVEST/CRAFT. gawd seriously everyone learn to read. darkfall wont be different. you will encounter mobs that will attack you while you harvest. You can stay in town and craft but that means youll need someone else to get the materials for you. that person in some way or another will in one moment engage a mob. if your new to the game you just cannot craft off the bat. you have no resorces or money. how can you buy mats form other players. you will have to start on your own looking for what you need and in one point you will engage somthing on the way. once you do have a profit, enought to buy mats from other people and craft items to make more money to keep the cycle going, then and only then you will have no need to get involved in combat. this statement is true for any sandbox game.
now that off the side. please guys stop trying to add words to the op;s mouth that he did not mention. or stop trying to add other points that have NOTHING to do with the topic. Once again the OP is not insulting or dissing out sandbox game's .
Thanks for actually understanding.
In my post I never intended to take a Jab at the sandbox fanboi (would be stupid since I am one).
Anyway, I stopped responding since most people in the thread seem to want to shove words in my mouth or just go off topic and pick a fight.
In a game with a sandbox mode, a player may turn off or ignore game objectives. This can open up possibilities that were not intended by the game designer. A sandbox mode is an option in otherwise goal-oriented games, and should be distinguished from open-ended games with no objectives such as Sim City.
A sandbox-like structure of gameplay is featured prominently in the Grand Theft Auto franchise. Other games where players may ignore the game objectives and explore the world as a sandbox include Freelancer, Crackdown the Elder Scrolls series, Postal², Prototype, Hulk: Ultimate Destruction, recent Spider-Man games, inFamous, and the Pokémon video games. There is also a Sandbox mod for Battlefield 2 which allows players to freely build creations with in-game objects, or simply roam around in the maps.
Going by the true definition of sandbox, there are no sandbox MMOs (that have progression). Sorry Darkfall is not a sandbox. Where Oblivion is because you can go anywhere at any time, and do anything because the game progresses with you.
The only way a MMO could be a sandbox is if there were no levels, or progression at all. Every MMORPG that is calling its self a sandbox is misusing the term.
Going by the true definition of sandbox, there are no sandbox MMOs (that have progression). Sorry Darkfall is not a sandbox. Where Oblivion is because you can go anywhere at any time, and do anything because the game progresses with you. The only way a MMO could be a sandbox is if there were no levels, or progression at all. Every MMORPG that is calling its self a sandbox is misusing the term.
Even though your post is way off topic I might as well ask about the line i highlighted.
Isn't there character progression in Elderscrolls?
I know in the original ES games you needed to actually level up ur skills so you could take on monsters in harder areas.
Of course this was changed with Oblivion since the entire freaking game world leveled with you.
But still Oblivion still has sometype of character progression, so I guess Oblivion isn't a sandbox either?
Going by the true definition of sandbox, there are no sandbox MMOs (that have progression). Sorry Darkfall is not a sandbox. Where Oblivion is because you can go anywhere at any time, and do anything because the game progresses with you. The only way a MMO could be a sandbox is if there were no levels, or progression at all. Every MMORPG that is calling its self a sandbox is misusing the term.
Even though your post is way off topic I might as well ask about the line i highlighted.
Isn't there character progression in Elderscrolls?
I know in the original ES games you needed to actually level up ur skills so you could take on monsters in harder areas.
Of course this was changed with Oblivion since the entire freaking game world leveled with you.
But still Oblivion still has sometype of character progression, so I guess Oblivion isn't a sandbox either?
Yes but the game progresses with you, which you can't do in a MMO (because you have more than one player). So in a elderscrolls game you really can go anywhere at any level cause everything in the game is relative to your level. (the mobs level up with you). You can't do this with a MMO - unless there were no levels at all.
In no way in my original post did I challenge what a sandbox mmo was.
It was only a small clarification of certain myths sandbox fans seem to enjoy posting.
As an example.
A darkfall fanboi will say "Darkfall is awesome, Im totally free to roam anywhere I want in a none instanced gameworld" or "Darkfall is awesome, I can grab a sword right after character creation and challenge a vet on even footing".
Players spouting nonsense like this makes new players actually try the game, then they try to explore and find out they actually need to level skills to travel without getting WTFpwn'd or they grab a weapon and get spanked in two hits by a master swordsman and say "WTF" and rage quit.
My post is attempting to help the new players understand what type of game thier getting into before they play.
in no way am I challenging what a sandbox is. the OP isnt about sandbox games being true sandboxes or not.
This is how you are off topic, unless you were quoting someone else?
Yes but the game progresses with you, which you can't do in a MMO (because you have more than one player). So in a elderscrolls game you really can go anywhere at any level cause everything in the game is relative to your level. (the mobs level up with you). You can't do this with a MMO - unless there were no levels at all.
That depends on which TES game you have in mind, mobs don't level with the player the same way in all of them. In Oblivion, mobs did level right along with the player - however there were mods that changed that. I felt it made it feel less linear, not more so, that the gameworld didn't progress with the player. The player could still go anywhere, it was just more dangerous to do so. Is that really less sandbox-like?
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Great post. I think you hit the nail on the head rather well. I have been saying this for a while. One difference is the feel between sandbox and themeparks
I apologize for not having been a bit more open-minded. The truth I guess is that a sandbox MMO can be anything the individual person sees it as. I look at sandboxes like big huge open canvases for excellent roleplay, I tend to not care as much about the game's actual core mechanics. I hate coming off as an arrogant RPer or something so I do apologize for criticizing the OP's points.
I think that right now most of us talking in this thread are all pretty much sandbox lovers but so far there hasn't been much for us, which sucks.
I didn't get the impression you were attacking sandbox games at all, just disspelling some of the myths which is fine, I agree overall with the OP in that sense, though not all sandboxes are the same. I wanted to point out that sandboxes tend to be just that: a huge sandbox that you can play in, no developer-made goals. If I am slapping on my own label and confusing people, I apologise for that. I was merely pointing out that that is what the name is evocative of to me. So whether a sandbox has a linear progression system or a skill-based system, areas with a level range or no level range, etc., I think is a moot point, and perhaps gamers get a little carried away when they think about sandboxes vs themeparks.
Quite a few games have elements of both: EQ is a 'themepark' but its world is huge, well-developed and feels like a proper world. LotRO is a 'themepark' also with a well-developed world that seems alive. On the other hand, EvE has areas with a 'level range' in the sense that if you want to pop rats, newbs can only really pop them in 0.7-0.8 sec whereas veteran PvE combat pilots can go all the way to 0.0 if they want to to kill battleships. I don't think there is any 'pure' sandbox or 'pure' themepark game out.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
actually, i know plenty of people who only played crafters (never fired a shot/swung a sword in their entire lives) and i think that is one of the reasons why Sandboxes are awesome. Aside from that your pretty much spot on. Anyone with half a brain can see where levels fit into sandbox games its just more obvious in some games than it is in others.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Lol i love how many posters stuffed things into the OP's mouth that he did not say. The Op never said that a sandbox game is the same as the rest of the games out there. Seriously read his post . The Op also did not mention in any way you have no freedom of choice. the 1st myth he mentioned about progression. Regular games have lvl progression. Sandbox games have skill progression. while both are different you are still doing quite the same. grinding to lvl or grinding to lvl a skill. How many arrows must be plucked before you can actually do considerable dmg.having 5 skill on archery will not compare to having 50 skill. you still need to grind the skill to lvl it on mobs or in pvp. Its just a different way of lvling. And of course in a sandbox game even if your skills are modest you can put up a good fight compared to a lvl60 vs a lvl 70 in non sanboxed games. Thing is you cannot deny the fact that one way or another a skill must be grinded either by use (darkfall) or by time (eve) your just lvling your skill.
the 2nd myth is about the ability to go anywhere at anytime as a newb: While yes in eve you can go to 0.0 space in a rookie ship. That doesnt mean you can achive things in said areas. there is no way you can fend off 3 cruisers and 2 battleships. you need to progress in skill to obtain better ships and battle skills to take them on. THIS IS WHAT THE OP WAS TALKING ABOUT. not about you just cant go there. you still need to progress. there will be areas in eve that go with your skill. as you get better skills and ships, you can do to more dangrous areas and survive. The same thing will be in darkfall. I know for one a recenlty made player can wander wherever he/she pleases. But comeon if you stumble on some ruins and see some mobs that quickly make waste of you that means while you could have gone there doesnt mean you could achive somthing there. its already been mentioned that while you travel you have no idea how hard mobs can be and will learn by trail and error. So while you can go there. you simply cannot kill the mobs in that area due to low skill ect. when you get better skill and some decent equipment then you find out you can take those mobs down and achive somthing. This is what the op ment. the 3rd myth. a newly made char can compete vs a vet. We all know this is not true. however in eve a few newbs can cripple or destroy a vet. I do not know how this will work in darkfall but there can be a chance.The Op just ment that mr newb with starter wep cannot rush at mr vet with 100 shield/ block archery and magic ,ect and melt mr vets face, it wont happen.
the 4th and final one about crafting. The op is right, if you simply cannot accept it you know nothing about sandbox games. While yes newbs can craft yes they can if they want but combat of one sort or another will be involved. About the eve crafter/miners : if a player wants to be just a crafter said player must have money if they do not want to mine. In order to craft better, these players must build standings with the corporation they are doing their crafting at. these missions will sometimes pit them vs the enviorment. and some can be important you cannot drop missions or lose alot of standing. If your mining, mobs do appear so you do need some sort of defence. While combat is minimum. COMBAT IS THERE. THE OP ONLY SAID YOULL NEED SOME SORT OF COMBAT NOT FULL COMBAT IN ORDER TO HARVEST/CRAFT. gawd seriously everyone learn to read. darkfall wont be different. you will encounter mobs that will attack you while you harvest. You can stay in town and craft but that means youll need someone else to get the materials for you. that person in some way or another will in one moment engage a mob. if your new to the game you just cannot craft off the bat. you have no resorces or money. how can you buy mats form other players. you will have to start on your own looking for what you need and in one point you will engage somthing on the way. once you do have a profit, enought to buy mats from other people and craft items to make more money to keep the cycle going, then and only then you will have no need to get involved in combat. this statement is true for any sandbox game.
now that off the side. please guys stop trying to add words to the op;s mouth that he did not mention. or stop trying to add other points that have NOTHING to do with the topic. Once again the OP is not insulting or dissing out sandbox game's .
Thanks for actually understanding.
In my post I never intended to take a Jab at the sandbox fanboi (would be stupid since I am one).
Anyway, I stopped responding since most people in the thread seem to want to shove words in my mouth or just go off topic and pick a fight.
Anyway thanks again.
Well, sorry to throw more fuel on the fire, but if this is the case, then how come you are misleading others who read what you write? You say you are trying to prevent new players from being misled, but your post is just as misleading to new players as if they have believed all these myths to be true in the first place.
As I said in my original post in here, if you were really trying to help new players to sandboxes, you would take the things that people actually say about sandboxes. In reality, you twisted things up just so you could turn them in to myths.
Example - you said the first myth was "the games have no levels" - but your description of this did not fit that. Your description of that myth would have been correct if Myth #1 was "Sandbox games had no grind".
There is where i see your claims fall apart. Noone says that Sandbox games have no grind. Nor does anyone say they do not have levels because actually some of them do - like Asherons Call. It is a similar situation for the 2nd and 3rd myth as I described in my first post as well.
And I HAVE NOT put any words in to your mouth. I am only pointing out that all but one of the "Myths" you named are spun in a way so that you could call them Myths - the only one you did not spin is the Crafting one. All the rest are not used in the context you are putting them in to, which is very misleading to the people you claim to be "setting the record straight" for.
And I honestly believe that if a new player read this post and took it all to heart, it would do them more help then good for the reasons I described.
One can only assume that the only reason you would bother to spin things that people do not really say, would be to take a jab at the fanboys, no?
So I apoligize if I misunderstand, but I honestly do not believe you are trying to do this for the reasons you claim. If you really are doing them for the reasons you claim, I suggest you re-write your post a bit so that you actually help them instead of doing more harm. Include some real myths, not fabricated and spun ones.
First of all, I think it's a little ridiculous to try and write some rules for all sandbox games. There are very few features that are constant for all sandbox, so there really is no point to try and put them all under the same label. That being said, I can think of some examples that prove the OP's myths wrong and also a few myths of my own to break.
Levels- Second Life. No levels. No skills. Straight "sandbox," if you will.
Exploration- No sandbox games that I know of limit content based on skill level. Sure, you're better off waiting until you have better skills, but if you really want to go see something then you're welcome to try. Most linear games actually limit certain content based on level. The "sandbox" style of gameplay allows players to choose for themselves instead of being forced to adhere to some nonsense game mechanic.
Veteran v. Noob - First of all, I don't think there are any people who try to make this argument. However, once again, Second Life proves this wrong as well.
Crafter - You're just wrong here. Plenty of people play straight crafters in games like EvE and Ryzom.
There are both good and bad myths about sandbox games that can be debunked by certain examples or just aren't true at all.
Myth: Sandbox games are more hardcore
First of all, define "hardcore." I know plenty of linear games that enforce strict death penalties.
Myth: Sandbox games are PvP based
No, sandbox does not determine the type of conflicts most players will engage in (Second Life as an axample yet again).
Myth: Sandbox games have no content
For some games this is definitely true, but many sandbox games have solid content from the developers and allow players to add to and axpand that content,
If I even tried to use those I would have even been more misread and this topic would have been even more thrown off topic by butt hurt fans that think my post is actually criticising sandbox games. Myth: Sandbox games are more hardcore First of all, define "hardcore." I know plenty of linear games that enforce strict death penalties. "hardcore is Subjective to be honest" Myth: Sandbox games are PvP based No, sandbox does not determine the type of conflicts most players will engage in (Second Life as an axample yet again). This one wouldn't work, the best sandboxes imo didn't force pvp up your ass and turn it sideways. Good pveish sandbox games? Ryzom and Swg Myth: Sandbox games have no content For some games this is definitely true, but many sandbox games have solid content from the developers and allow players to add to and axpand that content, Also subjective, Ryzom has optional quests yet everyone says that game doesn't have content. Meanwhile I've played ryzom for the last 6-7 months and have had more fun with its content then my last 6-7 months in WoW.
In my post I listed three myths that apply to Every sandbox game...easily.
The forth i agreed with but then gave my tips to new players since both Ryzom and DF (the only two current sandbox mmos other then eve) are easier to play as a crafter/gatherer if you level combat skills to defend yourself. it was more of a "make the game easier for yourself" tip.
I knew by writing the fourth people would disagree, but I hoped people would understand what I meant. they clearly didnt, they even are accusing me of actually taking shit about sandbox mmos lol.
Saying sandbox MMOs has a basic leveling system, have gated sections of a game world through mob difficulty and that there is a power gap between a new player and a vet is totally true, so there really isnt much else to say to be honest.
You say it doesn't apply to every game? but it does
I didn't know the OP was the foremost authority on what a sandbox game truly is. Most of your points are wrong and sound heavily biased, as if you are thinking of other games and comparing them to each other in your mind. Your logic is entirely flawed. You've given your opinion on what a sandbox is and that's all there is to it. While I agree to some tiny bits of your post most of it is completely wrong. By your standard there's almost no such thing as a sandbox game out there, meaning the only real choice for a person looking for a sandbox MMO is Second Life. You also only look at the technical aspect of a sandbox game. It isn't just about game mechanics. A sandbox is in essence a place where you can be whatever you want to be. This doesn't mean you can do anything you want such as take a brand new character to the top of Flamebroiled Mountain or some such, it means you can be Dorb Ooblejang, mystical battle mage and noted scribe, traveler of the 1,337 corners of the globe. It's this sort of thing that also makes a sandbox game. When people say freedom, they don't necessarily mean freedom within the game's own core mechanics, they mean freedom to create and roleplay the unique character they have in mind. Using Second Life as an unbiased example, you can make an avatar and without any skills to choose, levels to attain, or quests to pursue you can be whoever or whatever you want. That to me is a big part of what a sandbox really is.
Thats always been my view on a Sandbox game aswell, Freedom being the main word. Not being restricted to just 1 character type or 1 path to take.
What the OP has posted is just common sense issues that you will find in any game that has no distinctive lvls, I'm sure we all fully understand that a master swordsman is going to beat the living crap out of a plain old swordsman, thats a given because of the amount of practice one has put in over the other, you can't get away from that in any type of MMO.
Even in EQ1 a lvl 1 character you go practically anywhere they chose, it was bloody dangerous but it was possible to do it if you where careful, it's how EQMaps came about, ofc as the game grew some content became locked due to needing key requirements or flagging and this ofc put a stop to lvl 1 characters being able to explore the whole game, but that won't be true for a Sandbox game, yes it will be dangerous as hell but it will be possible to go everywhere and see everything, just not possible to take on the encounters until you have the neccessary skills to do so.
In my post I listed three myths that apply to Every sandbox game...easily. The forth i agreed with but then gave my tips to new players since both Ryzom and DF (the only two current sandbox mmos other then eve) are easier to play as a crafter/gatherer if you level combat skills to defend yourself. it was more of a "make the game easier for yourself" tip. I knew by writing the fourth people would disagree, but I hoped people would understand what I meant. they clearly didnt, they even are accusing me of actually taking shit about sandbox mmos lol. Saying sandbox MMOs has a basic leveling system, have gated sections of a game world through mob difficulty and that there is a power gap between a new player and a vet is totally true, so there really isnt much else to say to be honest. You say it doesn't apply to every game? but it does
It doesn't apply to every game. In fact, I'm fairly certain I gave you an example: Second Life. Second Life is a sandbox game where vets/noobs are no different in skill values and can travel to any of the same areas of the game world. I agree that the vast majority of games have differences between vets and noobs and that exploration is limited by character skill level, that's a given, but not all games do. Once again, please do not try to make a comprehensive feature list for sandbox games, there are very few game mechanics that apply to all of them.
Also, EvE, Ryzom, and Darkfall are not the only sandboxes out right now, so please do research before making claims that apply to "all sandbox" games. Sure, most of the claims you made do apply to EvE, Ryzom, and Darkfall, but that doesn't mean they apply to all sandbox games.
In my post I listed three myths that apply to Every sandbox game...easily. The forth i agreed with but then gave my tips to new players since both Ryzom and DF (the only two current sandbox mmos other then eve) are easier to play as a crafter/gatherer if you level combat skills to defend yourself. it was more of a "make the game easier for yourself" tip. I knew by writing the fourth people would disagree, but I hoped people would understand what I meant. they clearly didnt, they even are accusing me of actually taking shit about sandbox mmos lol. Saying sandbox MMOs has a basic leveling system, have gated sections of a game world through mob difficulty and that there is a power gap between a new player and a vet is totally true, so there really isnt much else to say to be honest. You say it doesn't apply to every game? but it does
It doesn't apply to every game. In fact, I'm fairly certain I gave you an example: Second Life. Second Life is a sandbox game where vets/noobs are no different in skill values and can travel to any of the same areas of the game world. I agree that the vast majority of games have differences between vets and noobs and that exploration is limited by character skill level, that's a given, but not all games do. Once again, please do not try to make a comprehensive feature list for sandbox games, there are very few game mechanics that apply to all of them.
Also, EvE, Ryzom, and Darkfall are not the only sandboxes out right now, so please do research before making claims that apply to "all sandbox" games. Sure, most of the claims you made do apply to EvE, Ryzom, and Darkfall, but that doesn't mean they apply to all sandbox games.
Seriously enough with the second life crap, Once it stops being a player run AD campaign i'll consider it a game.
Now for a list of sandbox games that arent like Secondlife? Eve,Ryzom,Wurm,ToD,Mabinogi and the hybrids? AO and Runescape. Did i miss any that weren't real cash scams like SL?
Hell I could add in about 5 sandbox games coming out before 2010 also, believe me I know whats out there.
Hell I've only been playing sandbox games since UO, I guess I know nothing
Comments
"Sandbox MMOs don't have levels" - Well, some DO have levels. And Yes, all of them DO have SOME sort of grind.
But I need to clarify one thing. You are saying that you are posting this so new players are not misled, but YOU are misleading them as well.
Truth is, most of them DONT have levels. But this has nothing to do with what you discussed.
The topic you mentioned is Sandbox MMO's dont have levels. Where in that statement does it say anything about a grind??
An MMO does NOT need levels to have a grind.
I have not EVER seen anyone say that ANY MMO did not have some sort of grind. This topic you bring up seems like you are just looking for something to mention so that you could back up your point...
You should change that myth from dont have levels, do "sandbox MMO's dont have a grind", and it would make more sense.
"Sandbox Games give complete freedom, I can go to any part of the world at anytime"
Again, your description of this one is midleading to any new players reading this. I really do not believe you are doing this for the new players, as much as your mentioning this as an attempted jab at fanboys.
That said, there IS a huge difference of how progression works in sandbox games, and you would be foolish to truely deny it.
In games like WoW, if your level 15, there is typically only one zone for you in each racial zone. Thats where you go. When you hit 20-25 youll move on to the next one, which is typically right next to the last one.
In Sandbox games, the first difference is there are far more options. And more open up as you level.
This is because of another major difference - when you progress past certain NPC's, they STILL give XP or Skill points. In WoW, you out level a zone and its useless. In Sandbox games, this does not happen. You still get the same things from the mobs as you did earlier. Take AC for example, a certain type of area will give you lets say 5k XP per kill if your level 10. If your level 100, it will still give 5k XP per kill. This means the higher level you get, the MORE options open up. In non-sandboxes you are restricted to only the areas in your level range.
Also, there is a signifcant difference because there is more of a risk vs reward factor. You may not be able to kill an NPC that is FAR FAR above you, but you CAN have a chance on many things that are much higher. Take AC again for example - if you hit the enemy or not directly related to your attack skill vs their defense skill. If your magic and you fight an enemy with low magic defense, you can beat them even if they are WAY higher level then you. Sure they will hit hard, but you can be avoidant and do other things to get around that.
Furthermore, it establishes a sense of community more in sandboxes. You can get some crazy gear on that character and take out things that you normally wouldnt until at least 3x the level you are. In AC again, if you give yourself good gear ul be takin out mobs u normally wouldnt until lvl 20-30 at level ONE. The reason I mentioned community - if you make a friend (or have a Vassal system like AC) they can assist you. Give a new lvl 1 player some buffs, and they will 1-shot mobs that they wouldnt be fighting till lvl 30. They can get from lvl 1-3 or 4 in 1 single kill as well.
You can not do anything of those sorts in non-sandbox games.
Long story short, many times you will never know if you could take an enemy or not without trying in sandboxes. In WoW you can tell simply by targeting them.
Finally, the spawn points are comppletely different. There are far more options, the spawn areas are much more open. They DO NOT progress by levels all of the time. You will often see a bunch of easy mobs around some very high ones as well. It is a more natural spawn system. If you were walking thru the wild IRL, you would see a variety of animals. You may see a squirrel, a deer, or a bear. In a WoW-style game, youll see a crap load of squirrels. Keep going and youll see deers all over. Keep going youll see bears all over.
The worst part of non-sandboxes in comparison is that you dont have that risk vs reward though. You will have no chance on anything darker then an orange no matter what. THey have bonus dmg jus cuz ur lower, you have reduced dmg, they hit u more u hit them less, and most of the time they will 1-2 hit you. In sandboxes, this rarely ever happens. Even if its out of your league, it deals damage based on its weapons, it does not get bonus damage jus because its bigger then you.
"In a Sandbox MMO I can be competitive at the start, Since the game has no levels I can take on a older player"
Again, I do not belive your saying this one is for now players because you are STILL misleading them.
Noone ever siad you could start a game and be able to SOLO a very high level player.
What people DO say is you can actually HIT and HURT a player higher then you.
In WoW, attack a level 80 as a noob. Even if hes a caster, you wont hit him. Even if you do manage to get thru, youll do 0 or 1 dmg no matter how much u normally do.
In sandboxes, youll still deal damage. If you normally do 30 dmg, youll still do 30 dmg.
In WoW, if you start playing an dyou have a lvl 80 friend, he wont be able to play with you until you catch up. In Sandboxes, if you have a lvl 80 friend, youll be able to group and play together all the same, and still get xp/skill points/whatever. In Eve for example, youll still deal the same dmg to a noob as a high lvl person. Also, your debuffs are just as effective.
Seems that again you are so dead-set on trying to prove people wrong, that you bend what people say, and contradict yourself when you claim to be posting this to help new players. If you were gona help new players you would take the things that players really say. Noone ever said you could solo someone much higher in any game.
Sure, you wont be taking high lvls at lvl 1, but for a realistic view of how it is, at level 40 in AC I was able to SOLO players that were like 60-90. It wasnt as easy, but it was completely possibly. If you were like 60-70 plus you had a chance on taking out pretty much anyone. Just try that in WoW and you will see the differences in sandboxes.
"In a Sandbox If I wanted to be just a crafter I could and I wouldn't need to level combat"
This one has already been discussed enough so I wont bother.
Sorry if your bothered by me disagreeing with you so much, but it just bothers me that you claim to be helping new players who are misled by peoples comments, when your misleading them just as much.
Be honest and say what your really doing - your taking a jab and fanboys, not helping new players.
"Sandbox MMOs don't have levels"
Skill systems usually mean a much more shallow curve. Having 50 more points in a weapon skill will probably still make the character unbeatable, but not in the insta-wtfpwn way of having 100x damage modifier, on top of the 100x as much health, from being 50 levels higher. Then consider 5 points of skill, vs 5 levels, in your average skill and level games. So yes, but no. It does tend to be a big difference, not to have levels looming over everything so much.
"Sandbox Games give complete freedom, I can go to any part of the world at anytime"
I don't know if that really has anything to do with whether a game is a sandbox game or not. Not IMHO, anyhow. Guess it helps feel more sandbox like, the less linear the gameworld is.
"In a Sandbox MMO I can be competitive at the start, Since the game has no levels I can take on a older player"
Another exaggeration, but often in sandbox games, newer characters can at least hurt more advanced characters, while in level-based games, being higher level makes a character pretty much invulnerable. That can bring lots of other variables into play, that levels don't trump everything, giving players more of a sense of freedom. It's a matter of degrees, but in essence, a grain of truth.
"In a Sandbox If I wanted to be just a crafter I could and I wouldn't need to level combat"
Yeah, this one is pretty true. One of the most important distinctions of what makes a sandbox game, I think. It gives the player the feeling of freedom, to be what they want, so even if they do grind for combat skills, they do so knowing they could be a pure crafter, too. The more choices along those lines, the better.
Even if one's pure crafter character is just an alt, that's pretty big, too. I like having alts that just craft, and mains that can't be bothered. Helps with the feeling of role playing. I'm not much of a role player, but I like when my characters have distinct personality like that.
To me, that's the essense of the sandbox game. That characters aren't just funnelled along linear paths, but rather progressing in whatever ways make sense to them, given some idea of who I want them to be. You really need options for that, rather than a class based levelling scheme, where the character just follows along.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Wrong, then it's not a true sandbox. Both Oblivion and fallout 3 you can go anywhere at level 1. There is no zoned progression. The entire game progresses as you do. So this could not be done in a MMO. But if there are progression zones than it's not a true sandbox sorry.
And skill based has nothing to do with a gaming being a sandbox, that's a separate issue. Although many sandbox games are skill based they don't have to be.
There is quite a bit to think about in the OP.
To me a sandbox is a true virtual world, not necessarily one that is cut up in heavily-restrictive level-based areas. The theme park MMO is of course one where the different areas of the game are very very restricted based on level and areas are very contrived atmospherically. Tight mob spawns for certain levels, built-for-purpose areas in themeparks are very opposite of sandbox building in which things are put in for the hell of it. Interestingly though LotRO is considered a themepark, it has world-like qualities to it. I come across a lot of things in the landscape that were obviously thrown in just for recreating the feel of Middle Earth. There is a cycle of time and weather that also makes the game world 'live' more than the average themepark game. For example, the shade in Bree which is only there at night, lots of role-play elements that are there to bring flavour to the game. However, LotRO is still a themepark because the areas are tightly regulated level-wise and the storyline is Part A, then Part B, etc.
I don't equate sandboxishness to having a leveling system or having skills. If there are professions in the sandbox, I can see them as providing the ability to shape and affect the game world... not just have crafting and/or combat. In real life, you have a wide gammit of professions, so a proper virtual world should too. That to me is what also makes a sandbox different from themepark where you only have a few non-combat roles you can pick up. EvE and A Tale in the Desert are the two sandboxes that come to my mind. Both have progression but in a way that is a lot less restrictive than themeparks. I don't know about Ryzome anymore since I haven't played it in ages. SWG was great because on top of the crafting and combat professions, you also had social professions like the politician, the entertainer, bioengineers, etc.
I see these games also as not having any grand goal, whereas the themepark has a tightly structured storyline and the endgoal is reaching max level and raiding or something of that nature. In sandboxes, you get to choose your own destiny: will you be a trader who goes into fleet battles for your corp and web people in EvE? Or perhaps you'll be a mission runner who does a bit of exploration on the side...
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
Lol i love how many posters stuffed things into the OP's mouth that he did not say.
The Op never said that a sandbox game is the same as the rest of the games out there. Seriously read his post . The Op also did not mention in any way you have no freedom of choice.
the 1st myth he mentioned about progression.
Regular games have lvl progression. Sandbox games have skill progression. while both are different you are still doing quite the same. grinding to lvl or grinding to lvl a skill. How many arrows must be plucked before you can actually do considerable dmg.having 5 skill on archery will not compare to having 50 skill. you still need to grind the skill to lvl it on mobs or in pvp. Its just a different way of lvling. And of course in a sandbox game even if your skills are modest you can put up a good fight compared to a lvl60 vs a lvl 70 in non sanboxed games. Thing is you cannot deny the fact that one way or another a skill must be grinded either by use (darkfall) or by time (eve) your just lvling your skill.
the 2nd myth is about the ability to go anywhere at anytime as a newb:
While yes in eve you can go to 0.0 space in a rookie ship. That doesnt mean you can achive things in said areas. there is no way you can fend off 3 cruisers and 2 battleships. you need to progress in skill to obtain better ships and battle skills to take them on. THIS IS WHAT THE OP WAS TALKING ABOUT. not about you just cant go there. you still need to progress. there will be areas in eve that go with your skill. as you get better skills and ships, you can do to more dangrous areas and survive. The same thing will be in darkfall. I know for one a recenlty made player can wander wherever he/she pleases. But comeon if you stumble on some ruins and see some mobs that quickly make waste of you that means while you could have gone there doesnt mean you could achive somthing there. its already been mentioned that while you travel you have no idea how hard mobs can be and will learn by trail and error. So while you can go there. you simply cannot kill the mobs in that area due to low skill ect. when you get better skill and some decent equipment then you find out you can take those mobs down and achive somthing. This is what the op ment.
the 3rd myth. a newly made char can compete vs a vet. We all know this is not true. however in eve a few newbs can cripple or destroy a vet. I do not know how this will work in darkfall but there can be a chance.The Op just ment that mr newb with starter wep cannot rush at mr vet with 100 shield/ block archery and magic ,ect and melt mr vets face, it wont happen.
the 4th and final one about crafting.
The op is right, if you simply cannot accept it you know nothing about sandbox games. While yes newbs can craft yes they can if they want but combat of one sort or another will be involved.
About the eve crafter/miners : if a player wants to be just a crafter said player must have money if they do not want to mine. In order to craft better, these players must build standings with the corporation they are doing their crafting at. these missions will sometimes pit them vs the enviorment. and some can be important you cannot drop missions or lose alot of standing. If your mining, mobs do appear so you do need some sort of defence. While combat is minimum. COMBAT IS THERE. THE OP ONLY SAID YOULL NEED SOME SORT OF COMBAT NOT FULL COMBAT IN ORDER TO HARVEST/CRAFT. gawd seriously everyone learn to read.
darkfall wont be different. you will encounter mobs that will attack you while you harvest. You can stay in town and craft but that means youll need someone else to get the materials for you. that person in some way or another will in one moment engage a mob.
if your new to the game you just cannot craft off the bat. you have no resorces or money. how can you buy mats form other players. you will have to start on your own looking for what you need and in one point you will engage somthing on the way. once you do have a profit, enought to buy mats from other people and craft items to make more money to keep the cycle going, then and only then you will have no need to get involved in combat. this statement is true for any sandbox game.
now that off the side. please guys stop trying to add words to the op;s mouth that he did not mention. or stop trying to add other points that have NOTHING to do with the topic.
Once again the OP is not insulting or dissing out sandbox game's .
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Not all crafters need to gather their own resources
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
regardless what game you start. Remember the op is mentioning WHEN YOU JOIN A GAME. you will not have any resorces to buy the materials you need to start your craft. so you cannot build somthing from nothing. you will have to start at 1st to get somthing to make it into a profit where it can sustain you from not having to harvest again.
On depending on other players to achive your goal defeats the purpose of the 4th myth the op was explaining. you just cannot join a game and off the bat bam your crafting with NO need to touch the rest of the world.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
regardless what game you start. Remember the op is mentioning WHEN YOU JOIN A GAME. you will not have any resorces to buy the materials you need to start your craft. so you cannot build somthing from nothing. you will have to start at 1st to get somthing to make it into a profit where it can sustain you from not having to harvest again.
On depending on other players to achive your goal defeats the purpose of the 4th myth the op was explaining. you just cannot join a game and off the bat bam your crafting with NO need to touch the rest of the world.
You'd be surprised with what you can get away with in a game designed for it. Something like WurmOnline a vast percent of people haven't spent more than a few hours with a sword in their hands.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Im aware that people that played SWG and UO were strickly crafters, this is why I said the myth was actually right.
Do SWG and UO exist today in thier old forms? nope
My reply to the fourth was more of a tip for newer players since they only really have Ryzom and Darkfall to play as on foot sandboxes atm.
Maybe SWG not in it's old form but if YOU want you can still be a full crafter with NO combat.
Overall I believe the majority simply don't want or is able to play sandbox games and most of your OP I do agree on.
Thanks for actually understanding.
In my post I never intended to take a Jab at the sandbox fanboi (would be stupid since I am one).
Anyway, I stopped responding since most people in the thread seem to want to shove words in my mouth or just go off topic and pick a fight.
Anyway thanks again.
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From Wikipedia
Sandbox mode
In a game with a sandbox mode, a player may turn off or ignore game objectives. This can open up possibilities that were not intended by the game designer. A sandbox mode is an option in otherwise goal-oriented games, and should be distinguished from open-ended games with no objectives such as Sim City.
A sandbox-like structure of gameplay is featured prominently in the Grand Theft Auto franchise. Other games where players may ignore the game objectives and explore the world as a sandbox include Freelancer, Crackdown the Elder Scrolls series, Postal², Prototype, Hulk: Ultimate Destruction, recent Spider-Man games, inFamous, and the Pokémon video games. There is also a Sandbox mod for Battlefield 2 which allows players to freely build creations with in-game objects, or simply roam around in the maps.
Going by the true definition of sandbox, there are no sandbox MMOs (that have progression). Sorry Darkfall is not a sandbox. Where Oblivion is because you can go anywhere at any time, and do anything because the game progresses with you.
The only way a MMO could be a sandbox is if there were no levels, or progression at all. Every MMORPG that is calling its self a sandbox is misusing the term.
Even though your post is way off topic I might as well ask about the line i highlighted.
Isn't there character progression in Elderscrolls?
I know in the original ES games you needed to actually level up ur skills so you could take on monsters in harder areas.
Of course this was changed with Oblivion since the entire freaking game world leveled with you.
But still Oblivion still has sometype of character progression, so I guess Oblivion isn't a sandbox either?
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Even though your post is way off topic I might as well ask about the line i highlighted.
Isn't there character progression in Elderscrolls?
I know in the original ES games you needed to actually level up ur skills so you could take on monsters in harder areas.
Of course this was changed with Oblivion since the entire freaking game world leveled with you.
But still Oblivion still has sometype of character progression, so I guess Oblivion isn't a sandbox either?
Yes but the game progresses with you, which you can't do in a MMO (because you have more than one player). So in a elderscrolls game you really can go anywhere at any level cause everything in the game is relative to your level. (the mobs level up with you). You can't do this with a MMO - unless there were no levels at all.
And how is my post off topic?
In no way in my original post did I challenge what a sandbox mmo was.
It was only a small clarification of certain myths sandbox fans seem to enjoy posting.
As an example.
A darkfall fanboi will say "Darkfall is awesome, Im totally free to roam anywhere I want in a none instanced gameworld" or "Darkfall is awesome, I can grab a sword right after character creation and challenge a vet on even footing".
Players spouting nonsense like this makes new players actually try the game, then they try to explore and find out they actually need to level skills to travel without getting WTFpwn'd or they grab a weapon and get spanked in two hits by a master swordsman and say "WTF" and rage quit.
My post is attempting to help the new players understand what type of game thier getting into before they play.
in no way am I challenging what a sandbox is. the OP isnt about sandbox games being true sandboxes or not.
This is how you are off topic, unless you were quoting someone else?
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That depends on which TES game you have in mind, mobs don't level with the player the same way in all of them. In Oblivion, mobs did level right along with the player - however there were mods that changed that. I felt it made it feel less linear, not more so, that the gameworld didn't progress with the player. The player could still go anywhere, it was just more dangerous to do so. Is that really less sandbox-like?
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Great post. I think you hit the nail on the head rather well. I have been saying this for a while. One difference is the feel between sandbox and themeparks
I apologize for not having been a bit more open-minded. The truth I guess is that a sandbox MMO can be anything the individual person sees it as. I look at sandboxes like big huge open canvases for excellent roleplay, I tend to not care as much about the game's actual core mechanics. I hate coming off as an arrogant RPer or something so I do apologize for criticizing the OP's points.
I think that right now most of us talking in this thread are all pretty much sandbox lovers but so far there hasn't been much for us, which sucks.
I didn't get the impression you were attacking sandbox games at all, just disspelling some of the myths which is fine, I agree overall with the OP in that sense, though not all sandboxes are the same. I wanted to point out that sandboxes tend to be just that: a huge sandbox that you can play in, no developer-made goals. If I am slapping on my own label and confusing people, I apologise for that. I was merely pointing out that that is what the name is evocative of to me. So whether a sandbox has a linear progression system or a skill-based system, areas with a level range or no level range, etc., I think is a moot point, and perhaps gamers get a little carried away when they think about sandboxes vs themeparks.
Quite a few games have elements of both: EQ is a 'themepark' but its world is huge, well-developed and feels like a proper world. LotRO is a 'themepark' also with a well-developed world that seems alive. On the other hand, EvE has areas with a 'level range' in the sense that if you want to pop rats, newbs can only really pop them in 0.7-0.8 sec whereas veteran PvE combat pilots can go all the way to 0.0 if they want to to kill battleships. I don't think there is any 'pure' sandbox or 'pure' themepark game out.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
actually, i know plenty of people who only played crafters (never fired a shot/swung a sword in their entire lives) and i think that is one of the reasons why Sandboxes are awesome. Aside from that your pretty much spot on. Anyone with half a brain can see where levels fit into sandbox games its just more obvious in some games than it is in others.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Thanks for actually understanding.
In my post I never intended to take a Jab at the sandbox fanboi (would be stupid since I am one).
Anyway, I stopped responding since most people in the thread seem to want to shove words in my mouth or just go off topic and pick a fight.
Anyway thanks again.
Well, sorry to throw more fuel on the fire, but if this is the case, then how come you are misleading others who read what you write? You say you are trying to prevent new players from being misled, but your post is just as misleading to new players as if they have believed all these myths to be true in the first place.
As I said in my original post in here, if you were really trying to help new players to sandboxes, you would take the things that people actually say about sandboxes. In reality, you twisted things up just so you could turn them in to myths.
Example - you said the first myth was "the games have no levels" - but your description of this did not fit that. Your description of that myth would have been correct if Myth #1 was "Sandbox games had no grind".
There is where i see your claims fall apart. Noone says that Sandbox games have no grind. Nor does anyone say they do not have levels because actually some of them do - like Asherons Call. It is a similar situation for the 2nd and 3rd myth as I described in my first post as well.
And I HAVE NOT put any words in to your mouth. I am only pointing out that all but one of the "Myths" you named are spun in a way so that you could call them Myths - the only one you did not spin is the Crafting one. All the rest are not used in the context you are putting them in to, which is very misleading to the people you claim to be "setting the record straight" for.
And I honestly believe that if a new player read this post and took it all to heart, it would do them more help then good for the reasons I described.
One can only assume that the only reason you would bother to spin things that people do not really say, would be to take a jab at the fanboys, no?
So I apoligize if I misunderstand, but I honestly do not believe you are trying to do this for the reasons you claim. If you really are doing them for the reasons you claim, I suggest you re-write your post a bit so that you actually help them instead of doing more harm. Include some real myths, not fabricated and spun ones.
First of all, I think it's a little ridiculous to try and write some rules for all sandbox games. There are very few features that are constant for all sandbox, so there really is no point to try and put them all under the same label. That being said, I can think of some examples that prove the OP's myths wrong and also a few myths of my own to break.
Levels- Second Life. No levels. No skills. Straight "sandbox," if you will.
Exploration- No sandbox games that I know of limit content based on skill level. Sure, you're better off waiting until you have better skills, but if you really want to go see something then you're welcome to try. Most linear games actually limit certain content based on level. The "sandbox" style of gameplay allows players to choose for themselves instead of being forced to adhere to some nonsense game mechanic.
Veteran v. Noob - First of all, I don't think there are any people who try to make this argument. However, once again, Second Life proves this wrong as well.
Crafter - You're just wrong here. Plenty of people play straight crafters in games like EvE and Ryzom.
There are both good and bad myths about sandbox games that can be debunked by certain examples or just aren't true at all.
Myth: Sandbox games are more hardcore
First of all, define "hardcore." I know plenty of linear games that enforce strict death penalties.
Myth: Sandbox games are PvP based
No, sandbox does not determine the type of conflicts most players will engage in (Second Life as an axample yet again).
Myth: Sandbox games have no content
For some games this is definitely true, but many sandbox games have solid content from the developers and allow players to add to and axpand that content,
In my post I listed three myths that apply to Every sandbox game...easily.
The forth i agreed with but then gave my tips to new players since both Ryzom and DF (the only two current sandbox mmos other then eve) are easier to play as a crafter/gatherer if you level combat skills to defend yourself. it was more of a "make the game easier for yourself" tip.
I knew by writing the fourth people would disagree, but I hoped people would understand what I meant. they clearly didnt, they even are accusing me of actually taking shit about sandbox mmos lol.
Saying sandbox MMOs has a basic leveling system, have gated sections of a game world through mob difficulty and that there is a power gap between a new player and a vet is totally true, so there really isnt much else to say to be honest.
You say it doesn't apply to every game? but it does
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Thats always been my view on a Sandbox game aswell, Freedom being the main word. Not being restricted to just 1 character type or 1 path to take.
What the OP has posted is just common sense issues that you will find in any game that has no distinctive lvls, I'm sure we all fully understand that a master swordsman is going to beat the living crap out of a plain old swordsman, thats a given because of the amount of practice one has put in over the other, you can't get away from that in any type of MMO.
Even in EQ1 a lvl 1 character you go practically anywhere they chose, it was bloody dangerous but it was possible to do it if you where careful, it's how EQMaps came about, ofc as the game grew some content became locked due to needing key requirements or flagging and this ofc put a stop to lvl 1 characters being able to explore the whole game, but that won't be true for a Sandbox game, yes it will be dangerous as hell but it will be possible to go everywhere and see everything, just not possible to take on the encounters until you have the neccessary skills to do so.
It doesn't apply to every game. In fact, I'm fairly certain I gave you an example: Second Life. Second Life is a sandbox game where vets/noobs are no different in skill values and can travel to any of the same areas of the game world. I agree that the vast majority of games have differences between vets and noobs and that exploration is limited by character skill level, that's a given, but not all games do. Once again, please do not try to make a comprehensive feature list for sandbox games, there are very few game mechanics that apply to all of them.
Also, EvE, Ryzom, and Darkfall are not the only sandboxes out right now, so please do research before making claims that apply to "all sandbox" games. Sure, most of the claims you made do apply to EvE, Ryzom, and Darkfall, but that doesn't mean they apply to all sandbox games.
It doesn't apply to every game. In fact, I'm fairly certain I gave you an example: Second Life. Second Life is a sandbox game where vets/noobs are no different in skill values and can travel to any of the same areas of the game world. I agree that the vast majority of games have differences between vets and noobs and that exploration is limited by character skill level, that's a given, but not all games do. Once again, please do not try to make a comprehensive feature list for sandbox games, there are very few game mechanics that apply to all of them.
Also, EvE, Ryzom, and Darkfall are not the only sandboxes out right now, so please do research before making claims that apply to "all sandbox" games. Sure, most of the claims you made do apply to EvE, Ryzom, and Darkfall, but that doesn't mean they apply to all sandbox games.
Seriously enough with the second life crap, Once it stops being a player run AD campaign i'll consider it a game.
Now for a list of sandbox games that arent like Secondlife? Eve,Ryzom,Wurm,ToD,Mabinogi and the hybrids? AO and Runescape. Did i miss any that weren't real cash scams like SL?
Hell I could add in about 5 sandbox games coming out before 2010 also, believe me I know whats out there.
Hell I've only been playing sandbox games since UO, I guess I know nothing
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