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I dont think some people understand the reality of a "sandbox"
First off, a little bit about my background. I started out with MMO's at a young age playing EQ at first, advancing onto DAOC, AO, FFXI, Wow, aoc, lotro, vanguard and much more ect. Basically all of the most heard of and popular MMORPGS. I had a blast playing all of them, mostly DAoC due to its depth and unusal attraction.
Then a few years ago i played my first sandbox, Face of mankind. Most people will tell you this game is shit. I agree, the depth and "content" were very limited and everything was zoned. The reason i played this mmorpg day and night for a few years was because of its true sandbox element. The usual skill based combat (skill meaning actual skill like FPS ect.) and the fact that it had full loot, and the fact that the story was player driven.
I still hold to this day that FoM was the most fun i've had in a MMORPG (next to early release WoW). The fun part of FoM was the fact that there were endless possibilites. When you went in a city, you didnt know what was going to happen and who would be there. Any small incidence with a member of an opposite faction could set off a war. Gathering troops, gearing up, sneaking up on the enemy in their coloney and having a massive battle was an absolute blast. Your actions TRULY shaped the course of the game. The roleplay events were awesome. Hunting down MW's, selling drugs, elections, prison, all the best roleplay elements.
Most people bitch about Darkfall because they don't have some features promised. Or they think graphics suck, combat sucks, ect ect ect. But i think they are missing the true element of a sandbox that defines the game. Imagination. Because anything can happen, and your actions shape the world and you are held responsible for them . Its as close to a RL scenario as you can get in a video game.
Now many people might laugh at the fact that I said imagination is what will make this game great, but the mechanics allow for it. Games these days are so linear there is no imagination required, you sit back and get taken through the experience with the game holding your hand.
If you haven't had the experience of playing a heart pounding, risk-reward, player driven game where you are truly free, then you wont know what im talking about.
The bulk of fun in Darkfall will be player constructed
Comments
Then why all the videos are somes guys running after someone, and drinking potions? Do the beta testers don't have imagination?
Thats my main concern for darkfall. The community.
Dont worry its not most people.
Its just this site, its got a clan of Darkfall haters that is actually quite interesting to behold.
Everywhere else its pretty much, game is great or game seems good but is not for me.
-Darkstar
Thats my main concern for darkfall. The community.
but in the empty world of Darkfall, The Community is all you will have
First of all, a game cannot be sandbox if it has an allignment system. Simple as that. So Darkfall is not a sandbox game at all.
Secondly, the whole point of sandbox play is you can do whatever you want and make your way how you want in the world. From all reviews of Darkfall there is only a few things that you can do and they all involve pvp and ganking. This is not sandbox play, this is just an fps game with some mmo characteristics.
If the game is a sandbox where you just go out in the game world and do what you want within the physics of that world that the developers have created, then why are there allignment systems and magic guard towers to control what the players do? This game is not sandbox at all. Not even remotely.
Of course, as everyone has described in Darkfall, and it is always the case, the allignment system and attempt to control player behavior only causes more griefing and harms the community, placing roadblocks in front of honorable players and special features which end up to the advantage of griefers and exploiters. This is why a game that is ACTUALLY a sandbox can be fun, because player can police their own communities and control the game world, an ACTUAL sandbox game quickly develops a rich culture with generally accepted standards of behavior that are policed by the community members. In a game world where the community is actually in control of the world, this happens automatically, in a game world like Darkfall it is impossible because the game mechanics do not allow true player freedom.
SUMMING IT UP: Darkfall is not a sandbox game. You should not be putting yourself out as an authority on sandbox play when you seem to understand very little about it, no offense.
The one and only.
It would've been a sanbox if the mechanics allowed the player to be whatever he wants, and be able to do what he pleases and have fun doing it. Right now, its a sandbox restricted to bashing other people's faces all the time pressing the LMB. Once they fix and balance production to be less tedious and more meaningful, make all banks seperate, the game will be a good sandbox MMO in my eyes(That is assuming that Naval and Siege work as intented and the combat is as engaging as most ppl claim it is).
The rules of Debate are really simple; once you have to stoop to insults instead of facts, logic, or reason to try and win your argument, you've lost.
I just want to edit the Topic, "I dont think MOST people UNDERSTAND that REALITY is the ULTIMATE SANDBOX.
p.s. If you can find a better sandbox then real life, tell me please ^_^
EvE is not the only Godamn sandbox game. Because DF doesnt have a small part of the sandbox quality doesnt disqualify it by a long shot. You dont consider pre-trammel UO to be a sandbox?
nonsense. a few towers to protect beginners has no bearing on the rest of the game.
In every other aspect the games leave it to the player to police themeselves.
Thats why Darkfall is called a Sandbox MMO.
-Darkstar
nonsense. a few towers to protect beginners has no bearing on the rest of the game.
In every other aspect the games leave it to the player to police themeselves.
Thats why Darkfall is called a Sandbox MMO.
-Darkstar
Then why are people worried about "going grey", "going red", if it doesn't have any bearing on the rest of the game?
The one and only.
Darkfall is fun.
You know the problem with sandbox games? 99% of the people nattering away about what sandbox games are and arent haven't got a clue. A sand box game is a game that allows nonliniar game play. Super Mario Brothers is a linear game. World of Warcraft is a non-linear game. So is darkfall and for the same reason even though the games are completely different. You don't have to complete every task in a set order before progressing to the next task.
I think the real problem is that "sandbox game" is [just like 'vaporware'] a kind of Internet slang that means different things to different people and does not have an official or generally agreed upon definition.
I don't mind the way you define sandbox game as a game that is non-linear [I think that's what you said], but to me and most of the times I have seen the term used, what it is referring to is the freedom of the players within the game world. In other words, a sandbox game should be like playing in a sandbox, nobody tells you what to do, nobody tells you whether to dig holes or build a sand castle, or fling sand around with a shovel, or drive your toy trucks over the sand, you just go to the sandbox and have fun doing whatever you want to do. This is what a sandbox game means to most people, imo, but of course there are different ideas about the term, and the definition is not written in stone.
An allignment system is, by definion, telling the player what to do. It is like going to the sandbox and having some teacher standing over you telling you 'do this' or 'don't do that', if you do 'xyz' then you get your name on the board, if you do 'abc' then you get a detention. This is against the spirit of sandbox play, imo, that is why I say that with an allignment system you have already built something that is essentially NOT a sandbox game.
The one and only.
You know the problem with sandbox games? 99% of the people nattering away about what sandbox games are and arent haven't got a clue. A sand box game is a game that allows nonliniar game play. Super Mario Brothers is a linear game. World of Warcraft is a non-linear game. So is darkfall and for the same reason even though the games are completely different. You don't have to complete every task in a set order before progressing to the next task.
I think the real problem is that "sandbox game" is [just like 'vaporware'] a kind of Internet slang that means different things to different people and does not have an official or generally agreed upon definition.
I don't mind the way you define sandbox game as a game that is non-linear [I think that's what you said], but to me and most of the times I have seen the term used, what it is referring to is the freedom of the players within the game world. In other words, a sandbox game should be like playing in a sandbox, nobody tells you what to do, nobody tells you whether to dig holes or build a sand castle, or fling sand around with a shovel, or drive your toy trucks over the sand, you just go to the sandbox and have fun doing whatever you want to do. This is what a sandbox game means to most people, imo, but of course there are different ideas about the term, and the definition is not written in stone.
An allignment system is, by definion, telling the player what to do. It is like going to the sandbox and having some teacher standing over you telling you 'do this' or 'don't do that', if you do 'xyz' then you get your name on the board, if you do 'abc' then you get a detention. This is against the spirit of sandbox play, imo, that is why I say that with an allignment system you have already built something that is essentially NOT a sandbox game.
Sandbox does not mean that there can be no consequences for your actions. You are free to do what you want in Darkfall but if you do certain things there will be reactions to you doing them. You are perfectly free to go kill every member of your own race that you see, but if you do there will be consequences.
That is what sandbox means to me, you have the option to do anything you want, but some of those things may have an affect that you dont like.
I remember playing in sandboxes to. I remember playing with my trucks however i wanted. And i also remember that when i decided it would be fun to throw sand in my brothers face my mom had something to say about that.
nonsense. a few towers to protect beginners has no bearing on the rest of the game.
In every other aspect the games leave it to the player to police themeselves.
Thats why Darkfall is called a Sandbox MMO.
-Darkstar
Then why are people worried about "going grey", "going red", if it doesn't have any bearing on the rest of the game?
Because they are in the beginner zones and they themselves are beginners.
After that it matters very little.
Look at the vids of the ppl who have gotten further, if u look at the pointer info during the fights ull see its a mismash of red/grey/blue on every side of the battle.
-Darkstar
The allignment system becomes pretty null and void outside of the starting areas.
The only reason for it is so people arn't just killing noobs all day long.
So once you get a good base in the game and wander away form the starting zone no one really cares about alignment, also if your in an all race clan lol just let your clanmate leave the clan while you kill him a few times to get blue again.
So yeah the game is a sandbox and there is alot to do in it. I can't wait to play on release.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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You know the problem with sandbox games? 99% of the people nattering away about what sandbox games are and arent haven't got a clue. A sand box game is a game that allows nonliniar game play. Super Mario Brothers is a linear game. World of Warcraft is a non-linear game. So is darkfall and for the same reason even though the games are completely different. You don't have to complete every task in a set order before progressing to the next task.
I lol'd.
Thanks for a laugh
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Well, you certainly wont find it on a gaming forum.
A game cannot be a sandbox if it has any predefined ANYTHING. The only game (if you want to call it that) worthy of the designation sandbox, IMHO, is Second Life.
It has goals, even goals you can assign yourself, that need not be completed in a prticular order or at all. What makes Darkfall different from WoW is the reliance on emergent behavior to provide content instead of providing a large quantitty of preprogrammed content.
So whats the goals, the objective, the so call "end-game" content, for players in DF?
RIP Orc Choppa
It has goals, even goals you can assign yourself, that need not be completed in a prticular order or at all. What makes Darkfall different from WoW is the reliance on emergent behavior to provide content instead of providing a large quantitty of preprogrammed content.
So whats the goals, the objective, the so call "end-game" content, for players in DF?
City building and sieging. Same as in Shadowbane.
I guess there are some raid type dungeons in the game, and from what Ive read there will be certain event type superbosses, or DemiGods that will pop in from time to time.
But mostly its the pvp game.
-Darkstar
You know the problem with sandbox games? 99% of the people nattering away about what sandbox games are and arent haven't got a clue. A sand box game is a game that allows nonliniar game play. Super Mario Brothers is a linear game. World of Warcraft is a non-linear game. So is darkfall and for the same reason even though the games are completely different. You don't have to complete every task in a set order before progressing to the next task.
I lol'd.
Thanks for a laugh
OMG did he just call WoW a sandbox ?
by his def it is !!
I guess we owe WoW a big i am sorry .. not this is why Df fanboys are nuts 
You know the problem with sandbox games? 99% of the people nattering away about what sandbox games are and arent haven't got a clue. A sand box game is a game that allows nonliniar game play. Super Mario Brothers is a linear game. World of Warcraft is a non-linear game. So is darkfall and for the same reason even though the games are completely different. You don't have to complete every task in a set order before progressing to the next task.
I think the real problem is that "sandbox game" is [just like 'vaporware'] a kind of Internet slang that means different things to different people and does not have an official or generally agreed upon definition.
I don't mind the way you define sandbox game as a game that is non-linear [I think that's what you said], but to me and most of the times I have seen the term used, what it is referring to is the freedom of the players within the game world. In other words, a sandbox game should be like playing in a sandbox, nobody tells you what to do, nobody tells you whether to dig holes or build a sand castle, or fling sand around with a shovel, or drive your toy trucks over the sand, you just go to the sandbox and have fun doing whatever you want to do. This is what a sandbox game means to most people, imo, but of course there are different ideas about the term, and the definition is not written in stone.
An allignment system is, by definion, telling the player what to do. It is like going to the sandbox and having some teacher standing over you telling you 'do this' or 'don't do that', if you do 'xyz' then you get your name on the board, if you do 'abc' then you get a detention. This is against the spirit of sandbox play, imo, that is why I say that with an allignment system you have already built something that is essentially NOT a sandbox game.
No there is an actual definition. Just because most people haven't botherered to educate themselves doesn't mean it doesn't have one, I told you what it was you just reject it to put your own incorrect interpretation on it.
Read this
I don't think you understand linguistics very well. The idea that a word "means" xyz because some website says so is absurd. For new words, and new language, the meaning tends to be variable depending on who is doing the talking and what community they are a part of. Over time, a new word or new language takes on a widely accepted definition or stops being used because of a lack of accepted definition. This [when the word takes on a widely accepted meaning] is usually the point at which the word will be incorporated into standard dictionaries such as Webster's, although it is always true that language meaning is controlled by language as it is actually used, not by some book about it. In other words, dictionaries do not define what words mean, it is the other way around. The way that native speakers use a word within a given language cannot be incorrect, but dictionaries can be [and often are].
Btw, juding by the posts in this thread and the tenor of the article you posted, I would say your preferred definition for "sandbox game" is a minority definition at best, and you are pretty much fighting an uphill battle by trying to hold onto it.
The one and only.
You know the problem with sandbox games? 99% of the people nattering away about what sandbox games are and arent haven't got a clue. A sand box game is a game that allows nonliniar game play. Super Mario Brothers is a linear game. World of Warcraft is a non-linear game. So is darkfall and for the same reason even though the games are completely different. You don't have to complete every task in a set order before progressing to the next task.
I think the real problem is that "sandbox game" is [just like 'vaporware'] a kind of Internet slang that means different things to different people and does not have an official or generally agreed upon definition.
I don't mind the way you define sandbox game as a game that is non-linear [I think that's what you said], but to me and most of the times I have seen the term used, what it is referring to is the freedom of the players within the game world. In other words, a sandbox game should be like playing in a sandbox, nobody tells you what to do, nobody tells you whether to dig holes or build a sand castle, or fling sand around with a shovel, or drive your toy trucks over the sand, you just go to the sandbox and have fun doing whatever you want to do. This is what a sandbox game means to most people, imo, but of course there are different ideas about the term, and the definition is not written in stone.
An allignment system is, by definion, telling the player what to do. It is like going to the sandbox and having some teacher standing over you telling you 'do this' or 'don't do that', if you do 'xyz' then you get your name on the board, if you do 'abc' then you get a detention. This is against the spirit of sandbox play, imo, that is why I say that with an allignment system you have already built something that is essentially NOT a sandbox game.
No there is an actual definition. Just because most people haven't botherered to educate themselves doesn't mean it doesn't have one, I told you what it was you just reject it to put your own incorrect interpretation on it.
Read this
I don't think you understand linguistics very well. The idea that a word "means" xyz because some website says so is absurd. For new words, and new language, the meaning tends to be variable depending on who is doing the talking and what community they are a part of. Over time, a new word or new language takes on a widely accepted definition or stops being used because of a lack of accepted definition. This [when the word takes on a widely accepted meaning] is usually the point at which the word will be incorporated into standard dictionaries such as Webster's, although it is always true that language meaning is controlled by language as it is actually used, not by some book about it. In other words, dictionaries do not define what words mean, it is the other way around. The way that native speakers use a word within a given language cannot be incorrect, but dictionaries can be [and often are].
Btw, juding by the posts in this thread and the tenor of the article you posted, I would say your preferred definition for "sandbox game" is a minority definition at best, and you are pretty much fighting an uphill battle by trying to hold onto it.
I couldnt agree more, in the context of our subculture it is the meaning of the word WITHIN our subculture that defines its purpose.
Look at any game reviewer talking about Darkfall throughout its 8 year development, it has always been reffered to as a Sandbox style MMO.
And looking at the reviews that has come out after the NDA lift, its the same classification almost all around.
Clearly defining the game safely within the classifications we choose to follow for a Sandbox game.
-Darkstar
It has goals, even goals you can assign yourself, that need not be completed in a prticular order or at all. What makes Darkfall different from WoW is the reliance on emergent behavior to provide content instead of providing a large quantitty of preprogrammed content.
So whats the goals, the objective, the so call "end-game" content, for players in DF?
City building and sieging. Same as in Shadowbane.
I guess there are some raid type dungeons in the game, and from what Ive read there will be certain event type superbosses, or DemiGods that will pop in from time to time.
But mostly its the pvp game.
-Darkstar
Thx, but i do wonder why they in dungeons, superboss thing, since gear have no value in this game. Pardon me, never play a sandbox like this before.
RIP Orc Choppa
I think it's nice and easy for fans of darkfall to try and pigeonhole everyone that does not agree with them. The op, from the list he gave, never played a real sandbox game... and thats a shame. Some folks around these forums claim to have played UO and launch version of SWG before the umpteen revamps that avoided the real issues. However from their posts it would seem that they never did.
Yes a sandbox is a do what you want when you want sort of game. However there are supposed to be options. Options to do very many things. Just wander the countryside and hunt, take some odd jobs from npc's, camp resource nodes etc etc etc etc etc etc. While Darkfall may have a huge countryside from what I am reading there is nothing in it. Sure you can see the mountain in the distance and walk to it, big freakin deal
I live in California, if I want to go to the mountains they are a short hour drive away and they look far better than anything that any game can provide. And from what I am hearing I have a better chance of facing off against a mountain lion or a bear irl than I would in Darkfall 
I do hope darkfall meets with some measure of success. I would love for a real sandbox mmo to come along because of the successes of games like eve and darkfall. One with the content, the game balance, and the wide open world that allows for a true game. Not one where I have to be the content designer.
I think the OP has his/her own idea of what a sandbox is, but to claim that people do not understand the concept because it does not equate with theirs is narcissistic at best.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012