This Genre Will Fail

JK-Kanosi

I know it's a bold statement, and no, I don't have a crystal ball. Maybe the genre won't "technically" fail, but the genre is failing for me and probably for most. Here is why:

1. The gameplay is tedious and uninteresting. MMORPG's, by name, should be a massive multiplayer game that is a RPG at heart. RPG's are fun and interesting for their fans, because they get to create their own character (looks and abilities) and experience a world that of not their own. It differs from Action Adventure games, because instead of requiring you to play a prebuilt hero with an already determined skill path, you can create your own hero and choose your own skill path. Questing in an RPG are and have always been epic in nature. You weren't sent to do chores or tasks as a hero, nor would you want to, but the majority of MMORPG's provide you with chores and tasks and relable them as "quests." These quests have become a staple for MMORPG's and it's the sole and most viable way to "level up."  MMORPG's started out with gameplay that mimmicked that of a virtual world simulation, which made more sense for an online RPG genre. Now it's nothing more than a grindy single player game, with online capabilities.

2. The community sucks. The community used to be made up of mature people. At least it was in DAoC when I started playing MMORPG's in 2002. I'd go out on a limb and say that the genre itself only appealed to a certain cast of people, who naturally were more respectful and sociable than the current community in the genre. I'm not saying that old community doesn't still play, but finding people like that is not easy, and you're much more likely to run across the 133t lol pvp noob playerbase or the disrespectful kiddie or adult bunch. The community is practically tearing itself apart, not realizing we are camradre's in the same genre. Look at these boards as an example. People are tearing each other apart over the stupidist shit. This same sort of arguing and bickering goes on in-game. It's forcing more mature people, who love to group, to become solo players to avoid the asshats or leave the genre, which I'm seriously contemplating right now.

Further more, you have this divide where players are split between hardcore and casual; pve players and pvp players. Remember what RPG's are meant for and then ask yourself how could the "lol noob" pvp types have any interest in a RPG game? Just because a RPG has MMO attached to it, doesn't nullify the purpose of RPG"s. No one gets along, which I know is similar to real life, but problems are compounded in this genre, because you're faced with them on a daily basis, rather than every once in a while, like in real life. This makes for a bootcamp where normal people are climatized to being jaded, intollerant, and eventually they become asshats themselves.

3. The over analyzation of the genre is bad. People analyze everything. It's probably just the way we are wired. Developers and company analyze the best way to make money, which includes grinding, false advertisement, hype, and the list goes on. Players analyze the game and compare it to others and are able to rip the game apart before it even hits the shelves. It's not that the negatives aren't there, it's just that with a single player game, you wouldn't even bother worrying about it, because you'll likely only buy games in a genre you like and are excited about in the first place. These games cost more than MMORPG's and provide for less gameplay in one month than a MMORPG does, yet people spend their lives on forum boards analyzing a game to its death. No game will stand to this kind of analyzation, because nothing is perfect. Further more, once a game does release, people analyze the mechanics and figure out AND public the best way to spec, level up, and many other things to the point where if you don't follow these "proven" guides, you're shit out of luck. That turns a RPG, which is supposed to be a fun way to experience a new world, into a job of making sure you have x before y and so on. People shouldn't be so worried about that stuff and try to just have fun in a game. I have nothing against PvP and I enjoy it myself, but PvP is the main cause for this and could be said that it's the main reason for many of the things I've pointed out already. Without PvP, there isn't really a need to be cookie cutter. Without PvP, the "lol noob pvp" types go back to playing Counter Strike or some other FPS game. On the other hand, you have the raiders who have turned raiding into a job, and have analyzed things to the point where devs have to create raids hard enough where you actually need to maximize your character if you ever want to be able to complete that content. Raids existed before this happened and people would just gather up and do the raid. IT'd be fun, but now it's just another job.

Basically, the genre started out good, but instead of evolving into a genre that could provide a better way to experience another life or world, it evolved into an addictive money making machine that draws out the worst people the world has to offer.

Now have fun overanalyzing my post and tearing each other apart, because that's what you all have devolved to. You all, most of you all, are responsible for sucking the fun out of the genre.

Stormwave1

Unfortunately, I completely agree with all of your points. I'm not sure if it will mean the death of the genre, but it certainly needs something different before it dies off.

I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ1 first launched.

The first MMORPGs were for a more niche market, but when the larger companies realised the amount of money that could be made, lots followed suit. Resulting in much higher production games, which also means more of a financial risk. The answer to that was to attract the casual market, as it's much bigger, which is exactly what WoW did (and is still reaping the benefits of). This resulted in a huge watering down of many features though, like travelling, communicating, role-playing.

Most people play MMORPGs now just to get to the next level. There is no slow pace option anymore. I tend to walk around, explore, talk to people, help people out, etc, but this just results in me getting left behind, and being called a "n00b" etc. I do also hate the way every single quest, levelling possibilities, maps, skill sets are studied to death, and unless you follow an exact path you are "gimped". There is also no exploration, no hidden secrets that nobody else knows, absolutely nothing unique. It has also resulted in the genre becoming a lot easier, there is no real penatly for death in any MMORPG any more, meaning there is no tension when you get in trouble, just die and respawn. Everything is also handed to you, every quest has map points, so much information you never have to think, sometimes even shortcuts to get there to prevent the "tedious" task of enjoying the world.

I used to spend hours on EQ just sitting round talking, or walking from place to place for fun, playing games, or exploring. None of that exists anymore, it's just grind, grind, grind and when you get to the top level, moan that theres nothing to do.

EVE is a nice alternative to this generic formula, but I'm giving up on MMORPGs for now. Hopefully FML will be fun

Clippe

I agree with the OP's points too, but I doubt that the MMORPG genre will ever die out. I've played plenty of MMOs and plenty of games from other genres, and my best gaming memories are without a doubt from playing MMOs. Games like CS have their charm but there's nothing like playing an open PvP game with a good guild, that's what gaming is all about for me. Sure, there are plenty of asses in MMOs, but I guess that's just the way of the internet, and if you don't know how to avoid them you might be better off just selling that computer :P

JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Stormwave1


Unfortunately, I completely agree with all of your points. I'm not sure if it will mean the death of the genre, but it certainly needs something different before it dies off.
I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ1 first launched.
The first MMORPGs were for a more niche market, but when the larger companies realised the amount of money that could be made, lots followed suit. Resulting in much higher production games, which also means more of a financial risk. The answer to that was to attract the casual market, as it's much bigger, which is exactly what WoW did (and is still reaping the benefits of). This resulted in a huge watering down of many features though, like travelling, communicating, role-playing.
Most people play MMORPGs now just to get to the next level. There is no slow pace option anymore. I tend to walk around, explore, talk to people, help people out, etc, but this just results in me getting left behind, and being called a "n00b" etc. I do also hate the way every single quest, levelling possibilities, maps, skill sets are studied to death, and unless you follow an exact path you are "gimped". There is also no exploration, no hidden secrets that nobody else knows, absolutely nothing unique. It has also resulted in the genre becoming a lot easier, there is no real penatly for death in any MMORPG any more, meaning there is no tension when you get in trouble, just die and respawn. Everything is also handed to you, every quest has map points, so much information you never have to think, sometimes even shortcuts to get there to prevent the "tedious" task of enjoying the world.
I used to spend hours on EQ just sitting round talking, or walking from place to place for fun, playing games, or exploring. None of that exists anymore, it's just grind, grind, grind and when you get to the top level, moan that theres nothing to do.
EVE is a nice alternative to this generic formula, but I'm giving up on MMORPGs for now. Hopefully FML will be fun

 

Thank you for contributing to the discussion. For the others, who reply after this, I won't get to thank you all personally, but if you did contribute to the discussion, I thank you too.

I don't know the best way or even how to go about to say this, but the whole casual v. hardcore thing is what contributes to the downfall of the genre. Casual players didn't ruin the genre really, they just encouraged developers to make things more accessible in a shorter period of time. This isn't bad, it's just a different way to play a RPG, but it's still playing the RPG as RPG"s were designed to be played (IMO). No, I think it's the hardcore people who contributes the most to the genre's destruction. While casual players are happy to experience the game slowly and sniff the roses (so to speak), hardcore gamers complain about leveling being too slow, class balance, PvP problems, raiding problems, not enough content and etc, even though they fail to realize that their playstyle is unhealthy and if developers catered to them, the developers would be enablers. The hardcore players are the ones who seek out every advantage to the point of counting every percentage of a stat to find out the best way to play a character. They're the ones who find out the fastest way to level from 1 to whatever. They're the ones who post guides on how to do this, which makes it common knowledge, which leads to the unwritten requirement to follow these methods or be gimped. So yes, it was casual players who complained about travel times and grinding that made developers add teleporters, faster travel options, chores/tasks (quests), and guided progression, but the hardcore players contributed equally with their own load of bullshit.

I'm not here to tell developers or gamers how to play, but I do ask that a genre remains what it was designed to be. Faster travel times or a guided progression doesn't hurt anyone, because you can still choose to take the horse instead of the faster methods, but there's no way around what hardcore players do to a game.

My personal opinion is that MMORPG's should have stayed more like virtual simulations of a world, rather than a single player RPG, but even an online RPG that is as good as an offline RPG is evolution, even if it isn't down the path I'd of rather the genre take.

banthis

I'm right on par I'm so disenchanted with how MMO's have turned out lately.   Maybe I'm just getting old or something who knwos but it seems like since the EQ1 / DAoC days (and UO) they've just gottten more simplified more 'focused' on a particular path and its really disheartening.   I miss being able to sit and just craft or teach people the different languages I knew in EQ1, sure we had raiders and hard core players but they didn't completely dominate the community nor was their playstyle overly catered too. 

Gone are the days where you could just wander the world and create your own story.  Now everyone just rushes for end end end....so out the window the importance of the Journey.   I lament the loss..god I've joined the club of people missing the old days..this is utter hell for me!

 

I dont think MMOs will die out...there's hope there...but as long as people try to copy WoW instead of branching out and looking at the successful attributes of other games..we won't see a change anytime soon.  

JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Clippe


I agree with the OP's points too, but I doubt that the MMORPG genre will ever die out. I've played plenty of MMOs and plenty of games from other genres, and my best gaming memories are without a doubt from playing MMOs. Games like CS have their charm but there's nothing like playing an open PvP game with a good guild, that's what gaming is all about for me. Sure, there are plenty of asses in MMOs, but I guess that's just the way of the internet, and if you don't know how to avoid them you might be better off just selling that computer :P

 

Was that last comment really necessary?

The thing about MMORPG's is that they require communication. If you want to avoid asshats, you need to cut off that communication, which in result cuts off the good as well. So if you're the type that's active in the community, then you have to become inactive all of a sudden. Sure, the alternative is to use the /ignore feature, but you can only ignore so many people before the list fills up and I stand by my comment that the majority of people out there are not even worth talking to, which means the list fills up quick in any game that has a decently sized population. Another alternative is to join guilds, but no one should be forced into a guild for the sole purpose of avoiding the bad apples. Guilds are meant to be organized groups of people, with common goals and ideals. Those take a while to find, yet most guilds nowadays are just another chat channel. You're right in that the internet allows people to be ignorant, sexist, racist, and immature without consequences, but that doesn't nullify the knowledge that can be gained from the rest of the internet, so your last comment was rediculously stupid and unneeded. And no, typing :P doesn't give you the license to type whatever you want and think it'll just roll off a persons back. It also didn't escape my notice that you agreed with me, but your post reeked of the "adapt or get out" attitude that is prevelant in the current community. I've already went through the adaptation process, and now I'm waking up. I'm a 28 yr old man being dragged down by a bunch of no lifes and I've decided to voice my opinion in hopes that people will snap out of it.

I like the genre, and wish people will quit tearing themselves and each other apart. The genre can be much more if we banded together and were unified in our choices, but that's asking way to much from people who care little more than gaming. I know it won't happen, but imagine if MMO gamers did band together, canceled their accounts, and created a website that explained our terms and conditions of subscribing to another game. Developers would listen quick and our game would be here much sooner than later. But the developers know gamers will not follow another person and will remain divided in their dislike of the genre in its current form and probably look at us as sheep, who can be lead wherever they want us to go with pretty words and shiny loot. Well have fun, but I refuse to play another MMORPG unless it really offers something that grabs my attention. No more buying of every MMORPG that enters the market in hopes that it'll give me that feeling I lost long ago. That's not a hobby, that's an addiction.

astrob0y

A really well written post by you JK that i partly agree with.

My single tip for you is to try out Vanguard that has a really friendly and mature community, small populated games usually has that. There is alot of guilds with an common goal within the guild, for example exploring every single corner of the game with an large ship togheter, and thats something that Ive not seen in any mmo Ive ever played.

edit; and the genre is idd failing becuse of us players

Capn23

/ignore

 

/leave Regional

 

/kick [Insert Name]

 

beautiful additions to MMORPGs.

JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by astrob0y


A really well written post by you JK that i partly agree with.
My single tip for you is to try out Vanguard that has a really friendly and mature community, small populated games usually has that. There is alot of guilds with an common goal within the guild, for example exploring every single corner of the game with an large ship togheter, and thats something that Ive not seen in any mmo Ive ever played.
edit; and the genre is idd failing becuse of us players

 

Thanks for the recommendation, but I already tried and playe Vanguard on multiple occasions, most recently being last month.

The game does have a lot to offer for the explorer, but the community is extremely small and overly defensive of the game to where they snap on anyone that asks a question or comments on stability issues or bugs. The game also is quest centric, but to a lesser degree than other games. It has its fair share of menial labor quests, but grouping up and dungeon crawling is actually somewhat of a viable alternative. I love that they had several starting areas, many races, and many classes to try out. Vanguard was a great concept that was never really realized due to a poor release and slow development by its current developers.

 

Clippe

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Clippe


I agree with the OP's points too, but I doubt that the MMORPG genre will ever die out. I've played plenty of MMOs and plenty of games from other genres, and my best gaming memories are without a doubt from playing MMOs. Games like CS have their charm but there's nothing like playing an open PvP game with a good guild, that's what gaming is all about for me. Sure, there are plenty of asses in MMOs, but I guess that's just the way of the internet, and if you don't know how to avoid them you might be better off just selling that computer :P

 

Was that last comment really necessary?

The thing about MMORPG's is that they require communication. If you want to avoid asshats, you need to cut off that communication, which in result cuts off the good as well. So if you're the type that's active in the community, then you have to become inactive all of a sudden. Sure, the alternative is to use the /ignore feature, but you can only ignore so many people before the list fills up and I stand by my comment that the majority of people out there are not even worth talking to, which means the list fills up quick in any game that has a decently sized population. Another alternative is to join guilds, but no one should be forced into a guild for the sole purpose of avoiding the bad apples. Guilds are meant to be organized groups of people, with common goals and ideals. Those take a while to find, yet most guilds nowadays are just another chat channel. You're right in that the internet allows people to be ignorant, sexist, racist, and immature without consequences, but that doesn't nullify the knowledge that can be gained from the rest of the internet, so your last comment was rediculously stupid and unneeded. And no, typing :P doesn't give you the license to type whatever you want and think it'll just roll off a persons back. It also didn't escape my notice that you agreed with me, but your post reeked of the "adapt or get out" attitude that is prevelant in the current community. I've already went through the adaptation process, and now I'm waking up. I'm a 28 yr old man being dragged down by a bunch of no lifes and I've decided to voice my opinion in hopes that people will snap out of it.

I like the genre, and wish people will quit tearing themselves and each other apart. The genre can be much more if we banded together and were unified in our choices, but that's asking way to much from people who care little more than gaming. I know it won't happen, but imagine if MMO gamers did band together, canceled their accounts, and created a website that explained our terms and conditions of subscribing to another game. Developers would listen quick and our game would be here much sooner than later. But the developers know gamers will not follow another person and will remain divided in their dislike of the genre in its current form and probably look at us as sheep, who can be lead wherever they want us to go with pretty words and shiny loot. Well have fun, but I refuse to play another MMORPG unless it really offers something that grabs my attention. No more buying of every MMORPG that enters the market in hopes that it'll give me that feeling I lost long ago. That's not a hobby, that's an addiction.

 

First of all, learn to take a joke, maybe if you chilled out a little bit you wouldn't think most people are asshats in the first place. Second of all, do you really believe that every person you meet in a game is going to become your best friend? I meet people all the time in games that I have a great time with, even while I played WoW. I also meet people who are asses and I simply smile and wave because it doesn't matter. There's no need to cut everybody off and become the antisocial solo gamer, nobody is forcing you to group with people you don't enjoy playing with. My point is, lighten up and don't take everything so seriously, and maybe you'll find MMOs a much more tolerable experience

 

JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Capn23


/ignore
 
/leave Regional
 
/kick [Insert Name]
 
beautiful additions to MMORPGs.

 

You're right, but let's look at the big picture here. Did you always need those features in this genre? Not from my experience. You needed them only when MMORPG's hit the mainstream. Don't forget that the need for those options shows how bad the community has gotten, which is one of my points in my OP.

I realize gaming is a hobby, and it's a hobby of mine. But have you ever wondered or really cared why our hobby carries such a bad name compared to others? Well, look at the majority of the topics on this website for some examples of why gamers aren't taken seriously. Look at how some hardcore gamers let the hobby effect their lives (people dying or not feeding their kids). Look at how silly people get in-game (e-peen waving, geeked out about system specs, turning a game into a job).

Yeah, it's about time for me to find another hobby, which sucks, because I really like to game. I plan to continue to game, but I'll approach things more warily now that I know it can ruin your life. A bit dramatic you're probably thinking to yourself, well I point to all the examples out there. If you're not spending hours out of your day gaming, you can surely see others who do. That's a life ruining behavior. People dying or not feeding their kids is a life ruining behavior. Losing ambition and drive due to game addiction is a life ruining behavior. You don't believe that people lose ambition and drive? Just ask around or maybe take a look at yourself. What could or would you be doing with your life if you weren't playing games so much? Becoming jaded and bitter towards others due to the amount of ignorance that's prevalent on gaming forums and the games themselves ruins your life, because you approach people more negatively than you might of if you didn't surround yourself by so many idiots on a daily basis. So at first glance, it sounds dramatic, but it's the reality of a gamer whose hobby takes over their life and the genre is full of those types.

TheGrue

Rude people have existed in online games since Neverwinter Nights, they were in EQ, DAoC,AO and so on the only change is the genre itself, to lump an entire gaming populous into the 'suck' catergory is unfair and i take mild offence to that as will others, i am a seasoned vet of many games and i treat people with the respect they deserve....the community doesn't suck, but certain people within it do.

When games like Neverwinter Nights and EQ were new online gaming was for nerds or geeks, i can't begin to tell you how many times i've heard those two words assoicated with online gaming back in the day...then online gaming started becoming more mainstream, more and more people were coming in and now you have what we have now, an oversaturated online market with gamers who at one time called others geeks for playing are now working on their third character themselves.

You run into more rude people because more people are playing online games, it's like that small town person moving to New York...more people, more conflict, more problems...that's life and yes sometime it sucks, it's how you deal with it that matters.

The genre won't fail because it's roots are too firmly dug in but we are going to see a 'thinning-out' on online gaming over the course of this year,  it is my opinion that Sony will start shutting off some online games that simply don't have the population to keep them running and will instead start focusing on two or three games, again just my opinion.

Gameplay is all in the perception of the gamer, to call it 'tedious' and 'unintresting' is your opinion and you're most certanaly entitled to it, i'm certain i have a game here on my shelf that you think is the most boring game ever and vice-versa, it's just a different tastes.

Over-analyzation of the genre has existed since the birth of online gaming, i think it's pretty safe to assume that the higher-up at Sony weren't playing tiddly-winks when EQ was quietly humming away in the background, no...they were making advertizing spots, trying to get more and more people into the game, adding new content to draw in more and bring back vets...it's the nature of the beast and it won't change, gamers do it as well...that too will not change.

Is it good or bad? i can't say.

Online gaming hasn't evolved, it's changed this is true...but there is a difference between change and evolving, by reading many, many post of these forums it suggests that quite a few seeing the genre as de-evolving into a dumbed-down version on what they know...i too believe that it is going downhill because the online gaming world is noe surrounded by this safety-net that makes certain that all gamers are secure no matter what happens, little risk, little reward, little point.

We cannot go back, the days of EQ being fresh and new are over...maybe a developer will try to bring back the gaming of the 90's but i very much doubt it, instead this machine will push on they way it always has.

 

 

Evasia

TL;DR

Well some small parts then realise its said before and Wall of txt ugh, ugh:(

Livett

 I agree with what you have said, but I don't think it will die out.

 

Why mmorpgs have not been that great lately? Every company want's to churn out a game as quick as possible just to make a "fast buck" i think the expression is.

 

Shame really. 

Evasia

I thought all these years Darkfall would be different then they start introducing universial banks savezones  in race citys with insanely stupid starwars towers, alignment system that protect the carebears.

Community overall is just terible in that game but im for gameplay and luckely chat is limited in that game.

My believe in genre is dropped to all time low.

But as ive experience also in a game like AC2 some community can be great AC2 had such acommunity it was unbelievele how good that community was and i dont mean when chat was down but overall it was great.

Then years go by and i thought i would never see such a great community untill i started saga of ryzom last year when it relaunched it have also a very mature and nice community where vetrans help and people act normal in chat and answer your nub questions politely.

So in many ways i also have not much faith left but its still posible to have a nice player community, saga of ryzom is one of those few exceptions:)

Quizzical

1.  Television is tedious and uninteresting.  All you do is sit there.  Literally.  You don't get to customize it, and nothing you do can change what happens, at all.

2.  The television community is non-existent.  Seriously.  You sit there and watch, and other people sit there and watch from their own homes, and you can't communicate with them.  Ever.

3.  Television is overanalyzed.  People rate shows, people get really caught up in what this or that fictional character did or meant or could have done, and the like.  There are even award shows for TV programs where people breathlessly act like someone out there cares.

Therefore, television will fail.

J_Hurry

Fail? Never.

Evasia

i only watch sometimes news but for rest i dont even watch movies anymore or series ill buy series on dvd.

Im more on internet then tv in last few years.

Vynt

I have felt that MMOs were becoming a bit stagnant also. Like previously said, people were wanting to make a fast buck. It is a business and people do want to make money, but I think companies are realizing that trying to clone WoW and make some generic MMO is not working.

Why play a poor copy of WoW when you can play WoW. I am hoping companies realize this and start to think outside the box with what people consider a "niche" game. A lot of the upcoming games I see, seem to offer a different style of gameplay. Games that focus on alternative gameplay like pvp, rvr, hardcore pve, non quest based pve, etc will gather a community.

Companies do not need 11 million subs to be a success, nor even 1 million. A nice sustained based of 100-200k, more if lucky is just fine. I have a little hope for the next few years that some quality MMOs will surface, even if it is not something I enjoy.

 

On a side not, I played Vanguard off and on. About a year ago, the game was running very smoothly for me. I tried to go back to it during that free period and the lag was horrendous everywhere for me, with various settings. Not sure what happened, but the game got worse for me, so I didn't bother to try it again.

spades07

Agreed mmorpgs need to be more about rpg.

Community- agreed it is bad which means you got to look harder and create your own communities(aka guilds)

Overanalyzing- agree to a point but in what way is WoW the product of overanalying?

Blaming the community? I suppose the mmorpg community is like sport's fans- you got the ones who are critical of their team and you got the ones heart-on-sleeve and always passionate about their team.

Draccan

"This genre will fail"

 

Yes. I feel the same about the Internets

Kyleran

I think OP's angst can boiled down to a couple of simple things.

When MMO's started out the developers worked very hard to create virtual worlds, and it drew in a certain portion of the gaming community, (geeks if you will) but a large portion of consumers avoided them for the very same reason. (among others, including accessability)

Slowly but surely, Dev's realized if they made MMO's more like 'games' and not worlds, more players would be willing participate.

WOW was merely the finalist in a long line of games that kept trying to be more causal consumer friendly, appealing, and their large fanbase today shows that it must have worked.

But you can't out-wow WOW, and too many Devs since then keep trying to 'improve' on WOW when in fact, it really can't be if you stay true to their forumula, they have it nailed.

To really succeed, someone's going to have to go off the trail.  Not sure going retro is the right thing, one of big complaints against Vanguard was that it was too retro in areas (timesinks) that modern players dont like, such as long travel times, punative death penalties and corpse runs, and time consuming crafting.

I remember back in the day riding 20 minutes one way to my favorite leveling spot every day, and sometimes traveling even further to get to a decent RVR area.

We tolerated it back in the day, but now that we've tasted the forbidden fruit of easier gaming most don't want to go back.

 

astrob0y

Everything was so much more fun when we geeks had our games for ourself. Now its so causal so I have to cry everytime I play an Wii game.  And I do as well remember strange doings before wow, like an real life an such, but things wasnt so bad before that. That journey you made for some level grinding was maybe boring then but is wow+quest helper the way to go? I dont think so.  Just becuse its so much easier and attracts more pepole it dosent have to be the greatest thing made (just like mcdonalds, sorry had to do that).  

And Vanguard had alot of good ideas that was trashed and sadly became an clone with a diffrent skin.

But you are right when you wrote about the developers that worked hard to create virtual worlds to attract some type of pepole. I want them back so they can produce a time killer that attracts my geeky nerve. Like a steampunk fantasy mmo

GreenChaos

MMO's face many challenges that other games don't.

The biggest are: no ending, persistency, players playing at different paces.

Those are just a few I could list about one hundred.

Personally I think someone needs to rethink the MMORPG from the ground up. They are still just graphical MUDs, but MUDs have small communities and active GMs, making roleplay much more viable.

Lets face it MMOs suck. And the best way to make a great MMO is to not make a MMO. Make a great single player game, then slowly add multiplayer components until it becomes an MMO. That's what I would do.

JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Kyleran


I think OP's angst can boiled down to a couple of simple things.
When MMO's started out the developers worked very hard to create virtual worlds, and it drew in a certain portion of the gaming community, (geeks if you will) but a large portion of consumers avoided them for the very same reason. (among others, including accessability)
Slowly but surely, Dev's realized if they made MMO's more like 'games' and not worlds, more players would be willing participate.
WOW was merely the finalist in a long line of games that kept trying to be more causal consumer friendly, appealing, and their large fanbase today shows that it must have worked.
But you can't out-wow WOW, and too many Devs since then keep trying to 'improve' on WOW when in fact, it really can't be if you stay true to their forumula, they have it nailed.
To really succeed, someone's going to have to go off the trail.  Not sure going retro is the right thing, one of big complaints against Vanguard was that it was too retro in areas (timesinks) that modern players dont like, such as long travel times, punative death penalties and corpse runs, and time consuming crafting.
I remember back in the day riding 20 minutes one way to my favorite leveling spot every day, and sometimes traveling even further to get to a decent RVR area.
We tolerated it back in the day, but now that we've tasted the forbidden fruit of easier gaming most don't want to go back.
 

 

I often have to remind people that MMORPG's are just games and should be approached the same way as you approach other games, within reason. That's why I feel the need to remind people what the term MMO-RPG means. MMO is what defines the genre; what makes it unique compared to another genre. RPG is just the sub-genre of the MMO. RPG could easily be replaced with RTS, FPS, Action Adventure and etc with their own varying degree of success. So to be clear, I'm concentrating on the MMORPG games, not the other sub genre's.

So, I approach the MMORPG genre the same way I would the RPG genre, with a couple exceptions of course to account for the uniqueness of the genre. As I've stated already, I look for good character custimization, and an interesting advancement system. That really is what makes the RPG genre unique in itself. Being able to play and communicate with others, and having your character saved in a persistent world for a FEE is what makes the MMO genre unique. So combine the two terms, and you have a game that allows you to create your own character look, customize his abilities through advancement, while being able to communicate and play with other people in a persistent world, if you pay monthly for the privelage.

Many people say you can't out-wow WoW. Well, that's like saying you can't out-WoW the Ultima series, the Final Fantasy series, the KoToR series, Mass Effect, Fable, Elder scroll's etc etc. The truth is that all of these games are in the same genre and offer similar gameplay, yet we still buy them without bitching or moaning and we enjoy them. So why can't the MMORPG genre have similar gameplay in every MMORPG, since RPG's have similar gameplay and are successful? I think the only valid argument is because of the subscription fee.

The subscription fee is what it all comes down to. In regular RPG's, people are willing to buy future releases, even though they are like past releases, because it's better than playing the old game over and over again. You get to experience a new world, maybe a slightly different take on the character creation and advancement system. But the games are pretty similar. The games evolve not so much by altering core gameplay features from previous titles, yet they evolve by creating better graphics, animations, and by introducing one or two new features that has never or has rarely been put in an RPG before. Normal RPG's could release every 3-6 months and possibly less and still be bought up, because people would rather try out these new games than play the old ones. So why are MMORPG's so different?

They are different, because the community chooses to approach the two genre's differently. You can pay for a subscription to a MMORPG until the next one releases, but people choose not to. It's not really because the new games are a copy of the old games, because people prefer to play through new stories and play new characters rather than stick with old characters or replay content. It could be the friends you make in that older game your playing that's keeping you there. That's a possibility. Another possibility is that the new games are actually subpar or doesn't evolve the genre forward, the way single player RPG's tend to do.

So I don't think MMORPG's necessarily have to go off the beaten trail, because the history of other genre's show us that people will buy new games that aren't much different than an older game, to experience new content.

Regarding your last point, about introducing outdated game mechanics, I have to agree with you on that. If a company created a 2d single player RPG, it probably would fail. It's no different in the MMORPG genre when a game like Vanguard implements old MMORPG mechanics, such as death penalties and other time sinks. I don't think this is a bad thing either. The genre evolved from being a game only "no-lifes" can play, to a genre that any person can play instead of watching T.V. or whatever it is they do in the evenings, and actually achieve something meaningful. Making games more accessible doesn't mean they have to make them tedious though. Doing chores for NPC's that no hero in their right mind would ever do, doesn't constitute a great gameplay experience and that's what the genre has devolved to. So the genre is evolving in accessibility and graphics, but is devolving in other areas.

I'd like to take a moment to name of some positive improvements in the genre in the last few years. Some notable achievements and evolutions in the genre since WoW include world phasing (ie. LoTRO & GW); twitch combat (DDO); refined PvP system (WAR), refined arena pvp (GW); companion characters (GW). I'm sure you all can name quite a few more. I'm personally looking forward to SW:ToR for a MMORPG that has evolved into be more of a RPG than previous games. I do think it "may" hurt the MMO part of the genre, but the way the community has devolved into, that can't be a bad thing (for me).

JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by astrob0y


Everything was so much more fun when we geeks had our games for ourself. Now its so causal so I have to cry everytime I play an Wii game.  And I do as well remember strange doings before wow, like an real life an such, but things wasnt so bad before that. That journey you made for some level grinding was maybe boring then but is wow+quest helper the way to go? I dont think so.  Just becuse its so much easier and attracts more pepole it dosent have to be the greatest thing made (just like mcdonalds, sorry had to do that).  
And Vanguard had alot of good ideas that was trashed and sadly became an clone with a diffrent skin.
But you are right when you wrote about the developers that worked hard to create virtual worlds to attract some type of pepole. I want them back so they can produce a time killer that attracts my geeky nerve. Like a steampunk fantasy mmo

 

I heard an older gentlemen (super geek, old school) at Gamestop (a customer) talking about how he's excited for the Firefly MMORPG to release in 2009. I haven't heard anything about a Firefly MMORPG, but if what he says is true, that may be exciting.