Honestly i think that in some respects the players and the game manufacturers killed the social aspects of gaming. I started with original EQ you didn't group unless you wanted to but you still made lots of friends in chat and kept them. Forced Grouping, Forced Raiding to attain end of game items or visit end of game zones, and Instant Gratification all played their part in the downfall. However the developers were giving (the "people"/ the vocal majority) us what "we" were asking for to the downfall of the social gaming.
Honestly i think that in some respects the players and the game manufacturers killed the social aspects of gaming. I started with original EQ you didn't group unless you wanted to but you still made lots of friends in chat and kept them. Forced Grouping, Forced Raiding to attain end of game items or visit end of game zones, and Instant Gratification all played their part in the downfall. However the developers were giving (the "people"/ the vocal majority) us what "we" were asking for to the downfall of the social gaming.
True again. "The squeeky wheel gets the grease" as is said. From nerfing PVP for the carebears (god I hate to use the term) to unbalancing the games to satisfy the soloists all it's done is turn us players into NPCs with no more validity as individuals than we can provide at the next Boss battle.
That was one of the coolest parts of Funcoms approach to the game community. They actually got involved. When I first played AO I had the same experience, almost verbatim, and I too was floored by it. In that moment of time where an ARK made me feel welcome and personally took a few moments to get me going made me feel special in a way I had never imagined any game company even caring to do for it's players. So many other comments in this thread hit on exactly why there is so little room for getting to know anyone in games anymore, questing, solo content and being rushed by group content... they all make very valid points. I can relate to each in regards to AO in that there was content of every sort and you could go from running solo content and questing to group farming insanely difficult mobs but there was always the opportunity to take a much needed break and just shoot the breeze without missing a thing. After running around the crater (I can't even recall the names of the mobs anymore! ) killing hundreds of them we would all sit out of range of the aggro and laugh our heads off over close calls and the enevitable "oh shit!" moments. There just isn't the same opportunities in so many games out there to get to know anyone and no reason other than convenience when you do. There's nothing that bonds people together through shared challenges since so many games have everything boiled down to specific jobs... a tank is a tank, the cleric heals... we all do our job and then it's just over. AO never felt like a job. I had a role to perform according to my skillset but questing wasn't like hitting up a hooker and going home for the night afterwards (pardon the analogy). The interactions always allowed everyone to shine and stand out in their own way and the inter-dependencies of the teams make-up made it so that we all palyed a significant role in the level of enjoyment that each of us shared. Games like AO (way back when) that granted it's players those opportunities definitely had a huge impact on the social atmosphere of the game and I have to agree with nearly every point made in this thread to this point.
hum. yep that is it. Every point here is exactly what has changed the MMO and is destroying the social aspect and you know what? We kind of all are to blame cause we all kind of asked for the changes.
I think you guys have hit on quite a few things that have contributed....One thing I know has really changed it is that there isnt much downtime in games anymore........When I started in EQ1 back in 2000 there was alot of downtime.......Now combine downtime with group play and you will have more chat.........Solo quests and no downtime have really hurt the genre no doubt, at least from a social perspective........
Quoted for the absolute truth. I can remember playing SWG years ago standing at a starport waiting 10 minutes for the ship to take us to another town/planet etc and everybody was very social something always happened. I went back a few months ago now the ships are there in 1 min and very few to none say a thing or no one is around. I have played wow since open beta up january of this year and it was always GO GO GO the only reason I continued to play this game was a handfull of friends play. And out of the timeframe I played WoW I made maybe 6 or 7 friends and this was at the begining of release when MMOs were not know very well by the general public.
I think you guys have hit on quite a few things that have contributed....One thing I know has really changed it is that there isnt much downtime in games anymore........When I started in EQ1 back in 2000 there was alot of downtime.......Now combine downtime with group play and you will have more chat.........Solo quests and no downtime have really hurt the genre no doubt, at least from a social perspective........
Quoted for the absolute truth. I can remember playing SWG years ago standing at a starport waiting 10 minutes for the ship to take us to another town/planet etc and everybody was very social something always happened. I went back a few months ago now the ships are there in 1 min and very few to none say a thing or no one is around. I have played wow since open beta up january of this year and it was always GO GO GO the only reason I continued to play this game was a handfull of friends play. And out of the timeframe I played WoW I made maybe 6 or 7 friends and this was at the begining of release when MMOs were not know very well by the general public.
When ya think about it all of this is pretty much reflection of how the real world has evolved round us in our daily lives. Decades ago you actually got to talk to a real person when you called a company for whatever reason... now you get voice-recognition software menus. Decades ago when you went for gas in your car someone came out and pumped it for you and made change...now you swipe a card and do it yourself. Decades ago you used to have to break out a board game and play it with friends or family...now you just flip a switch, left-click an icon and you're in a whole new world that has fake people talk to you and give you something to do.
I just had the craziest notion to step outside and go find my old baseball mitt but I can't think of anyone who would be there to toss the ball to.... Yep. We're evolving as a species. We can even go have children without having sex and the television makes a great babysitter until they can flip a switch, left-click an icon and enter their own new world.
Dunno if I'm all that happy with the prospect though
And you are right. But I dont understand why games are suppose to follow this type of advancement. A game last I check was meant to place you in a alternate life, a fantasy. By trying to match todays world I dont quite understand. Hell im better off playing a single player game, I get more depth in it then I do in just about any MMO i have tried recently. Really I had more fun exploring a world and running into monsters that ripped me to pieces and having to ASK for advice then having a arrow point me in the right directions without having to communicate with anybody.
The community has changed. It is the players that have killed the community, not the developers.
When I first played Everquest, I was mostly in a family friendly atmosphere. Kids played with their parents and good sportsmanship was encouraged. People did not fill local channels in busy zones with rubbish.
Now I find in all MMO's that too many people:
swear all the time - every second word is a swear word
are rude - I wonder if they speak the same way to people face to face
will join groups on misssions that they know they do not have the time to complete
fill global and local channels with with personal conversations
some take long breaks for smokes, etc
some do not take any breaks
some bag other players all the time
A couple of nights ago on LoTRO I watched a bunch of creeps (creepy creepside creeps) on Elendilmir server bully a player. One player taunted the victim using the fact that their mother had died. He/she followed the victim around using "laughing at you emote" for some time. A friend of the bullies volunteered to (falsely) report the victim as a gold seller. The excuse given for the despicable behaviour was it is only a game and that the victim did not fit in with the community. Sadly no one (including me) spoke out against this behaviour. If you speak out, the community just comes down on you as well.
In WoW the local channels were constantly spammed by Chuck Norris jokes. Offensive comments were used by trolls to generate arguments.
My impression now is that grouping only works with real life friends.
Didn't bother reading all the replies so if this has already been mentioned then excuse me.
This one is easy. 3 things has ruined socialization
1. Introduction of solo quest grinds
2. Instances.
3. Lack of beneficial buffs that has a great impact on advancing through the game.
-Explained further
1* 10 years ago you got the best exp from joining a full group grinding mobs. Because this was a tedious way of getting your levels, people would pass the time between pulls to actually talk to eachother in the chat.
2* 10 years ago when there was no such thing as instances you would meet other people in dungeons. On your way to the deepest part of the dungeon where you were to replace the healer, you would run into other groups on the way. You would buff them, heal them and even resurrect if needed. Sometimes a group in another spot would be in trouble and you could run up and help them. There are plenty of other examples how you got to know other players in these non instanced games.
3* Because we no longer have great buffs to offer people such as faster travel buffs. Better mana regenerative buffs. Faster attack buffs. There really isn't anything in place where you can stop and help somebody out with a good boost to their tedious grind. Nor is there anything to help people with at different camp spots. This is in part tied into introduction of quest grinds.If you don't have any tools to help other players out then that also kills an aspect of meeting new friends.
These three things alone has done more damage than anything else. Communities haven't changed. The games has changed. Regardless if quests or mob grinding is a preference there is no denying it had a great impact on killing the one thing that would make people talk to eachother. The fact games has become so solo friendly you see more and more people less inclined to socialize
The community has changed. It is the players that have killed the community, not the developers. When I first played Everquest, I was mostly in a family friendly atmosphere. Kids played with their parents and good sportsmanship was encouraged. People did not fill local channels in busy zones with rubbish. Now I find in all MMO's that too many people:
swear all the time - every second word is a swear word are rude - I wonder if they speak the same way to people face to face will join groups on misssions that they know they do not have the time to complete fill global and local channels with with personal conversations some take long breaks for smokes, etc some do not take any breaks some bag other players all the time
A couple of nights ago on LoTRO I watched a bunch of creeps (creepy creepside creeps) on Elendilmir server bully a player. One player taunted the victim using the fact that their mother had died. He/she followed the victim around using "laughing at you emote" for some time. A friend of the bullies volunteered to (falsely) report the victim as a gold seller. The excuse given for the despicable behaviour was it is only a game and that the victim did not fit in with the community. Sadly no one (including me) spoke out against this behaviour. If you speak out, the community just comes down on you as well. In WoW the local channels were constantly spammed by Chuck Norris jokes. Offensive comments were used by trolls to generate arguments. My impression now is that grouping only works with real life friends.
This is exactly what we were talking about eariler in the thread about no GM in game. In the old days the offending parties would have been banned. The GM kept the game in what is called 'the spirt of gameplay'
The community has changed. It is the players that have killed the community, not the developers. When I first played Everquest, I was mostly in a family friendly atmosphere. Kids played with their parents and good sportsmanship was encouraged. People did not fill local channels in busy zones with rubbish. Now I find in all MMO's that too many people:
swear all the time - every second word is a swear word are rude - I wonder if they speak the same way to people face to face will join groups on misssions that they know they do not have the time to complete fill global and local channels with with personal conversations some take long breaks for smokes, etc some do not take any breaks some bag other players all the time
A couple of nights ago on LoTRO I watched a bunch of creeps (creepy creepside creeps) on Elendilmir server bully a player. One player taunted the victim using the fact that their mother had died. He/she followed the victim around using "laughing at you emote" for some time. A friend of the bullies volunteered to (falsely) report the victim as a gold seller. The excuse given for the despicable behaviour was it is only a game and that the victim did not fit in with the community. Sadly no one (including me) spoke out against this behaviour. If you speak out, the community just comes down on you as well. In WoW the local channels were constantly spammed by Chuck Norris jokes. Offensive comments were used by trolls to generate arguments. My impression now is that grouping only works with real life friends.
The original premise for MMOs was to give people a new way to get together and discover a new world(s) and work together for common goals. They were intended at the outset to be social constructs. It's always been the responsibility of the community to police itself using the same social guidelines that we find acceptable in our daily lives when interacting with people and those guidelines grew from the values we were taught to abide by: courtesy, respect, fairplay and, as said, good sportsmanship.
The sad thing now is that those people who once took an active role in keeping the sanity of the game communities together and civil have been driven into the underground or have left the games entirely because they cannot abide by nor tolerate what is now considered acceptable behavior. Such reprehensible behavior as you have witnessed and the fact that you cannot do anything because you will suffer consequences yourself is now all too common. The bullies and the unrestrained have gained the upper hand all "good manners" are reserved for our very small inner circle of friends and we are forced to ever smaller and smaller circles.
Once the values that are necessary for polite and amicable socializing are no longer important to the majority of that community there is no way possible to reintroduce it without being "tarred and feathered" by the status quo. Gaming is what it is for good or bad and we have done it as much to ourselves as we have done it to each other and the rewards of it are what you saw the bullies do and your helplessness in the matter. There is no way back and when we enter a new game we can only hope for the best. Social atmosphere not the least of it.
And to think I was seriously entertaining the thought of a lifetime membership for LoTRO! Guess that goes back into the "wait and see" pile.
Well MMOs are no longer limited to the nerdy niche that inhabited them earlier, now more regular gamers play them, most of which have no desire to play the game to make friends. I don't think newer MMOs are easier though, since there was nothing really hard about the older ones they just forced you to group to do anything in a timely manner and even then took forever to go places and level. But going back to the group heavy focus won't make the communities like ye olde MMOs because there is no going back. Your best bet is to find a really niche game, like Ryzom, which is unknown and unappealing to a wider audience, if you like the game then you will probably like the community because it is comprised of people who think like you. I don't think WoW has a bad community, it just has a particular style, particularly for those people that like Chuck Norris jokes and visit 4chan. Exclusion makes the best communities, when people that all think similarly get together to do something they tend to enjoy themselves more.
OMG blasphemy... whats wrong with Chuck Norris jokes?h Ok, I guess he is a little old now, and most people have turned towards either Britney Spear jokes or Paris Hilton.. she is a joke in herself, but... dont you dare talk badly about our hero Chuck Norris !!
Things that have depleted the social element in recent MMO's:
1. Reduction of downtime (you need time to talk; cannot do this if you are busy mashing hotkeys)
2. Increased soloability of gameplay (you need "someone" to talk to)
3. Poor chat system (have to be able to read what folks are saying)
4. Vent-like systems. Arguably, Vent and similar systems detracts from roleplaying, and in fast-paced combat, simply degenerates into commands, such as a sports coach might give to players via a mike.
A great post and alot of good answers And Ive to agree that it is the players fault that it looks like this. We said what we wanted and the developers gave us that. And hopefully next great game in this genre is a game that puts social aspects in the frontier and not fat loot. Hopefully there will be mechanisms in the game that force pepole to enjoy the virtual world togheter and also force pepole to behave like a gotdamn human being
I for myself often see mmos as an refleaction of the modern world. For example a teenage boy sees how angry (in diffrent ways) his family gets when they cant afford the same standards as the next door family. He logs into his virtual world and links his epic loot in /general to create the same feeling for others, greed. Its sadly the poor mans way (often pepole in the lower teenage)
the WoW generation killed the social mmo experience. back when i first started playing mmo's like nexus and eq when it first launched, and daoc at launch. people were social butterflies, groups galore, and easy to make friends and guilds.
WoW was born, and the flood gates opened to the socially retarded
Well, vistakah, I think yourself and quite a few other posts nailed my perspective on it already.
When you said "I can say it started post WoW release thats for sure but from a chatty kathy perspected WOW has some busy general spam, mostly young kids. That type of chatter doesn't interest most mature gamers. So we turn general off.", there is a direct example of something that actually promotes killing the element of being social in an MMO game.
Is it a wrong decision? Nobody has a right to make that call. I beliieve anyone who has played MMO games for any length of time has done the exact same thing, I know I have. Another poster has it right when there is so much one-upmanship and desperate need for attention to 'fit' on such a massive scale by, the majority, of younger players, that it simply makes it a hard atmosphere to even try to be social in.
I've always compared it to an actual social situation scenario. Say you're at a party at a friend's house. Some people there you know, others are new people and you go about meeting them and just hanging out. You're talking to a guy or girl, when suddenly some guy you never met before steps in and just goes off in some meth-induced, saliva spewing rage about how amazing his new tricked out car is, and his designer shirt was $400.00, but he doesn't care because he obviously has style and will tell anyone he meets all about it. Repeatedly.
What do you do then? Stay there and listen to him monopolize the situation, knowing full well that there is absolutely no redeeming quality that would have you actually talk to that person in any other circumstance, let alone stand there after your conversation has been disrupted?
Or, simply excuse yourself and find another circle of people that you can actually relate to on a level you're comfortable with?
Now, this form of social retardation is something we can clearly see in about every MMO game, on varying scales. You can ask for assistance in a quest, and be shot at with every "n00b lawlz" overused internet cliche ever typed. You can ask to join someone's group, and be immediately dismissed because your spec was wrong, your skills and gear "unworthy", and then you feel like you've wasted your time even logging in.
Really, you guys know the examples, and you've seen them all. It's nothing new.
So, over time, you take your conversations to your friend lists, guilds and whispers. You form bonds with people you tolerate, and in some rare instances, even respect. It isn't to say that decent, fun communities don't exist (in my recent experience LotRO, offhand, comes to mind as being almost civil), and you never know what luck you'll have with a new PuG group in (insert game here) that actually surprises you with how cool the people you roll with turn out to be.
But in the end, I truly think that communities going badly is pretty much everyone's "fault". The "Awesomeleets" for trying to ruin it, and the rest for just refusing to participate in the silliness.
I've played UO, EQ, FFXI, DAOC, and many others. All of them had a more social community.
I think it was because they forced you to party with others to do ANYTHING, the solo / questing idea that wow introduced (and EQ2) caused people to not depend on each other as much.
The social aspect declined, its still there just not as strong.
Didn't bother reading all the replies so if this has already been mentioned then excuse me.
This one is easy. 3 things has ruined socialization 1. Introduction of solo quest grinds 2. Instances. 3. Lack of beneficial buffs that has a great impact on advancing through the game.
-Explained further 1* 10 years ago you got the best exp from joining a full group grinding mobs. Because this was a tedious way of getting your levels, people would pass the time between pulls to actually talk to eachother in the chat.
2* 10 years ago when there was no such thing as instances you would meet other people in dungeons. On your way to the deepest part of the dungeon where you were to replace the healer, you would run into other groups on the way. You would buff them, heal them and even resurrect if needed. Sometimes a group in another spot would be in trouble and you could run up and help them. There are plenty of other examples how you got to know other players in these non instanced games.
3* Because we no longer have great buffs to offer people such as faster travel buffs. Better mana regenerative buffs. Faster attack buffs. There really isn't anything in place where you can stop and help somebody out with a good boost to their tedious grind. Nor is there anything to help people with at different camp spots. This is in part tied into introduction of quest grinds.If you don't have any tools to help other players out then that also kills an aspect of meeting new friends. These three things alone has done more damage than anything else. Communities haven't changed. The games has changed. Regardless if quests or mob grinding is a preference there is no denying it had a great impact on killing the one thing that would make people talk to eachother. The fact games has become so solo friendly you see more and more people less inclined to socialize
I'm just going to quote myself because I'm a narcissist and because blaiming players is complete bull.
The reason you are blaming players is because of the reasons above. Nr 1 being you don't need anybody to advance anymore. That is purely a game designs fault. If people had to group to advance or atleast advance at much greater speed you would see a much better behaved community since reputations would start to matter. Since MMO's these days are 100% solo friendly nobody is accountable. Hence it is the game designs fault
the WoW generation killed the social mmo experience. back when i first started playing mmo's like nexus and eq when it first launched, and daoc at launch. people were social butterflies, groups galore, and easy to make friends and guilds. WoW was born, and the flood gates opened to the socially retarded
How did the WOW generation kill social MMO experience. Its your fault you dont try to make friends in the game. I have no probelm making friends in guild and Pug groups and in PVP ( Arenas). When I play AoC and WAR it the was the same. Its like looking for a job. The job just doesnt come to you. You need to put some effort into it.
All MMO's have grinds. If you don't like to Grind then MMO's are not for you.
Didn't bother reading all the replies so if this has already been mentioned then excuse me.
This one is easy. 3 things has ruined socialization 1. Introduction of solo quest grinds 2. Instances. 3. Lack of beneficial buffs that has a great impact on advancing through the game.
-Explained further 1* 10 years ago you got the best exp from joining a full group grinding mobs. Because this was a tedious way of getting your levels, people would pass the time between pulls to actually talk to eachother in the chat.
2* 10 years ago when there was no such thing as instances you would meet other people in dungeons. On your way to the deepest part of the dungeon where you were to replace the healer, you would run into other groups on the way. You would buff them, heal them and even resurrect if needed. Sometimes a group in another spot would be in trouble and you could run up and help them. There are plenty of other examples how you got to know other players in these non instanced games.
3* Because we no longer have great buffs to offer people such as faster travel buffs. Better mana regenerative buffs. Faster attack buffs. There really isn't anything in place where you can stop and help somebody out with a good boost to their tedious grind. Nor is there anything to help people with at different camp spots. This is in part tied into introduction of quest grinds.If you don't have any tools to help other players out then that also kills an aspect of meeting new friends. These three things alone has done more damage than anything else. Communities haven't changed. The games has changed. Regardless if quests or mob grinding is a preference there is no denying it had a great impact on killing the one thing that would make people talk to eachother. The fact games has become so solo friendly you see more and more people less inclined to socialize
I'm just going to quote myself because I'm a narcissist and because blaiming players is complete bull.
The reason you are blaming players is because of the reasons above. Nr 1 being you don't need anybody to advance anymore. That is purely a game designs fault. If people had to group to advance or atleast advance at much greater speed you would see a much better behaved community since reputations would start to matter. Since MMO's these days are 100% solo friendly nobody is accountable. Hence it is the game designs fault
Had you read the posts before your original (and I assume you didn't read any after) you would have seen that most of your points are included already. One thing I must point out, however, is that the game designs, as they stand in todays market, are the direct results of what players themselves have been asing for and supporting by purchasing or paying to play them, thus it is indeed the players fault that the games are designed to exclude the social elements as they used to exist.
Solo content is great for those who prefer it, and enjoy it, but I have grouped all the content, even the technical "solo" content, since my first MMO.
But that's, well... me. Who cares about another nameless, unknown forum poster on the intranetwebs?
I think it just comes down to what YOU, as a player, as a person with a distinct personality, really make of it. Some people are just not social, shy, intorverted, etc. Some really have a desire to meet new people to do thigns with, but are intimidated by a number of aspects that keep them from being more extroverted.
Others, not so much.
So if a game caters to all aspects social types, why would it ever be considered bad? If something doesn't interest you, let's say for sake of being on-topic, a conversation in an MMO general chat, just don't participate. It sounds simplistic, because it is.
The one thing I don't agree with, pegleg, is that finding companions to hang with is compared to a job. If finding some relaxed people to roll in my crew ever turns out to feel like a job in an MMO, then it's seriously time to rethink things...
Ok so I've discussed a bit of this and I agree on a lot of it people but here is a few things that have turned me into how you say selective socializer.
1. - Blind invites. I hate them with a passion even nice players can really irk me cause I can be in the middle of a fight and LOOSE it cause someone pops a big old window up that I have to cancel cause I can't group while in combat. They never ask me whether I want to do something they just assume I will. BIG pet peeve.
2. - Groups arguing over who gets what or a player that is group leader loot Nazi. I hate it so much I make sure group options is round robin or I just don't group. I been in groups that disband on stupid shit like a helm that probably drops 20 times in a run. Really another BIG peeve.
3. - Groups that have a Loafer. Nothing like a experience lecher to really screw a party. They appear afk 99% of the time but as soon as a good loot roll happens they make sure to roll on it. group wipes happen often in these kind of groups.
4. - Group leaders that take impossible encounters just to try to beat it. So they can think themselves pig e-peen. I mean we all get in over I head sometimes but these are just way over the groups capability.
5. - Last and biggest is getting in a group that the leader wipes the group on purpose cause he is 'done' for the night. This is probably the top of the heap cause I care a lot to NOT dieing. Nothing like working 10 levels NOT dieing and have a death cause someone was 'done' for the night. I care about character I role play not just level.
I disagree that instancing reduced the social element
When instancing was introduced in the LDoN expansion for Everquest, I grouped with more people than at any other time in the game. Players that previously never socialised outside of their raiding guilds were all of a sudden mixing with other players.
When I played City of Heroes/City of Villains there was heaps of grouping for the instanced missions, and very little grouping outside of the instanced missions. Grouping is more common in in CoH/CoV than for most games I have played.
Instancing is a tool that can work support the social element. It all depends on how it is implemented.
I think there are many reasons combined that contribute to the social aspects of gaming devolving.
GM's - Any game, especially competative a game, needs to have an unbiased mediator to ensure the game is played within the rules and in the "spirit of the game". This includes MMO's in my opinion. Early games had GM's actively moderating chat, observing players to ensure good behavior and generally moderating the game. Now it seems GM's don't have time to really do anything except superficial tasks. For example I am currently playing AOC and I have had help for broken quests but have no help when it comes to offensive or rude players (personally not IC), exploiters and players not playing "within the spirit of the game". They don't care or don't have the time. And why get rid of a bad egg when they are a source of income?
Time - Games are quicker now. This is partly due to the meeting of RP'ers and FPS'ers I believe. Early games you have time to talk, even during combat. Games nowadays are moving into fast paced or eevn twitch based combat which meant that you can't effecitvely type to communicate. So guilds use Vent or other voice communications. What that means is, only those you already know will communicate with you and strangers or potential friends pass by because no one has enough time to talk.
Faceless and nameless - No one has to take responsibility for their actions or what they say anymore. People have grown wise and realise that if you call someone a shit the best they can do is respond in kind. And so conversations become pointless troll sessions most of the time. And because people don't seem to have much self respect they abuse their invisibility.
There are of course many other reasons combined but for me those are the 3 key area's. The first 2 can be resolved by game makers but I think the 3rd is just a reflection of modern society and until we are forced to accept the consequences for our behavior online then little will change, although it might improve in the first 2 points are addressed.
Comments
Honestly i think that in some respects the players and the game manufacturers killed the social aspects of gaming. I started with original EQ you didn't group unless you wanted to but you still made lots of friends in chat and kept them. Forced Grouping, Forced Raiding to attain end of game items or visit end of game zones, and Instant Gratification all played their part in the downfall. However the developers were giving (the "people"/ the vocal majority) us what "we" were asking for to the downfall of the social gaming.
True again. "The squeeky wheel gets the grease" as is said. From nerfing PVP for the carebears (god I hate to use the term) to unbalancing the games to satisfy the soloists all it's done is turn us players into NPCs with no more validity as individuals than we can provide at the next Boss battle.
Players and devs killed it because the players didn't want to be dependent upon other players for fun and the devs gave it to them.
hum. yep that is it. Every point here is exactly what has changed the MMO and is destroying the social aspect and you know what? We kind of all are to blame cause we all kind of asked for the changes.
That is kind of err.. scary.
wow! This thread is a eye opener.
Quoted for the absolute truth. I can remember playing SWG years ago standing at a starport waiting 10 minutes for the ship to take us to another town/planet etc and everybody was very social something always happened. I went back a few months ago now the ships are there in 1 min and very few to none say a thing or no one is around. I have played wow since open beta up january of this year and it was always GO GO GO the only reason I continued to play this game was a handfull of friends play. And out of the timeframe I played WoW I made maybe 6 or 7 friends and this was at the begining of release when MMOs were not know very well by the general public.
Quoted for the absolute truth. I can remember playing SWG years ago standing at a starport waiting 10 minutes for the ship to take us to another town/planet etc and everybody was very social something always happened. I went back a few months ago now the ships are there in 1 min and very few to none say a thing or no one is around. I have played wow since open beta up january of this year and it was always GO GO GO the only reason I continued to play this game was a handfull of friends play. And out of the timeframe I played WoW I made maybe 6 or 7 friends and this was at the begining of release when MMOs were not know very well by the general public.
When ya think about it all of this is pretty much reflection of how the real world has evolved round us in our daily lives. Decades ago you actually got to talk to a real person when you called a company for whatever reason... now you get voice-recognition software menus. Decades ago when you went for gas in your car someone came out and pumped it for you and made change...now you swipe a card and do it yourself. Decades ago you used to have to break out a board game and play it with friends or family...now you just flip a switch, left-click an icon and you're in a whole new world that has fake people talk to you and give you something to do.
I just had the craziest notion to step outside and go find my old baseball mitt but I can't think of anyone who would be there to toss the ball to.... Yep. We're evolving as a species. We can even go have children without having sex and the television makes a great babysitter until they can flip a switch, left-click an icon and enter their own new world.
Dunno if I'm all that happy with the prospect though
And you are right. But I dont understand why games are suppose to follow this type of advancement. A game last I check was meant to place you in a alternate life, a fantasy. By trying to match todays world I dont quite understand. Hell im better off playing a single player game, I get more depth in it then I do in just about any MMO i have tried recently. Really I had more fun exploring a world and running into monsters that ripped me to pieces and having to ASK for advice then having a arrow point me in the right directions without having to communicate with anybody.
The community has changed. It is the players that have killed the community, not the developers.
When I first played Everquest, I was mostly in a family friendly atmosphere. Kids played with their parents and good sportsmanship was encouraged. People did not fill local channels in busy zones with rubbish.
Now I find in all MMO's that too many people:
A couple of nights ago on LoTRO I watched a bunch of creeps (creepy creepside creeps) on Elendilmir server bully a player. One player taunted the victim using the fact that their mother had died. He/she followed the victim around using "laughing at you emote" for some time. A friend of the bullies volunteered to (falsely) report the victim as a gold seller. The excuse given for the despicable behaviour was it is only a game and that the victim did not fit in with the community. Sadly no one (including me) spoke out against this behaviour. If you speak out, the community just comes down on you as well.
In WoW the local channels were constantly spammed by Chuck Norris jokes. Offensive comments were used by trolls to generate arguments.
My impression now is that grouping only works with real life friends.
Didn't bother reading all the replies so if this has already been mentioned then excuse me.
This one is easy. 3 things has ruined socialization
1. Introduction of solo quest grinds
2. Instances.
3. Lack of beneficial buffs that has a great impact on advancing through the game.
-Explained further
1* 10 years ago you got the best exp from joining a full group grinding mobs. Because this was a tedious way of getting your levels, people would pass the time between pulls to actually talk to eachother in the chat.
2* 10 years ago when there was no such thing as instances you would meet other people in dungeons. On your way to the deepest part of the dungeon where you were to replace the healer, you would run into other groups on the way. You would buff them, heal them and even resurrect if needed. Sometimes a group in another spot would be in trouble and you could run up and help them. There are plenty of other examples how you got to know other players in these non instanced games.
3* Because we no longer have great buffs to offer people such as faster travel buffs. Better mana regenerative buffs. Faster attack buffs. There really isn't anything in place where you can stop and help somebody out with a good boost to their tedious grind. Nor is there anything to help people with at different camp spots. This is in part tied into introduction of quest grinds.If you don't have any tools to help other players out then that also kills an aspect of meeting new friends.
These three things alone has done more damage than anything else. Communities haven't changed. The games has changed. Regardless if quests or mob grinding is a preference there is no denying it had a great impact on killing the one thing that would make people talk to eachother. The fact games has become so solo friendly you see more and more people less inclined to socialize
This is exactly what we were talking about eariler in the thread about no GM in game. In the old days the offending parties would have been banned. The GM kept the game in what is called 'the spirt of gameplay'
The original premise for MMOs was to give people a new way to get together and discover a new world(s) and work together for common goals. They were intended at the outset to be social constructs. It's always been the responsibility of the community to police itself using the same social guidelines that we find acceptable in our daily lives when interacting with people and those guidelines grew from the values we were taught to abide by: courtesy, respect, fairplay and, as said, good sportsmanship.
The sad thing now is that those people who once took an active role in keeping the sanity of the game communities together and civil have been driven into the underground or have left the games entirely because they cannot abide by nor tolerate what is now considered acceptable behavior. Such reprehensible behavior as you have witnessed and the fact that you cannot do anything because you will suffer consequences yourself is now all too common. The bullies and the unrestrained have gained the upper hand all "good manners" are reserved for our very small inner circle of friends and we are forced to ever smaller and smaller circles.
Once the values that are necessary for polite and amicable socializing are no longer important to the majority of that community there is no way possible to reintroduce it without being "tarred and feathered" by the status quo. Gaming is what it is for good or bad and we have done it as much to ourselves as we have done it to each other and the rewards of it are what you saw the bullies do and your helplessness in the matter. There is no way back and when we enter a new game we can only hope for the best. Social atmosphere not the least of it.
And to think I was seriously entertaining the thought of a lifetime membership for LoTRO! Guess that goes back into the "wait and see" pile.
OMG blasphemy... whats wrong with Chuck Norris jokes?h Ok, I guess he is a little old now, and most people have turned towards either Britney Spear jokes or Paris Hilton.. she is a joke in herself, but... dont you dare talk badly about our hero Chuck Norris !!
Things that have depleted the social element in recent MMO's:
1. Reduction of downtime (you need time to talk; cannot do this if you are busy mashing hotkeys)
2. Increased soloability of gameplay (you need "someone" to talk to)
3. Poor chat system (have to be able to read what folks are saying)
4. Vent-like systems. Arguably, Vent and similar systems detracts from roleplaying, and in fast-paced combat, simply degenerates into commands, such as a sports coach might give to players via a mike.
A great post and alot of good answers
And Ive to agree that it is the players fault that it looks like this. We said what we wanted and the developers gave us that. And hopefully next great game in this genre is a game that puts social aspects in the frontier and not fat loot. Hopefully there will be mechanisms in the game that force pepole to enjoy the virtual world togheter and also force pepole to behave like a gotdamn human being 
I for myself often see mmos as an refleaction of the modern world. For example a teenage boy sees how angry (in diffrent ways) his family gets when they cant afford the same standards as the next door family. He logs into his virtual world and links his epic loot in /general to create the same feeling for others, greed. Its sadly the poor mans way (often pepole in the lower teenage)
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
the WoW generation killed the social mmo experience. back when i first started playing mmo's like nexus and eq when it first launched, and daoc at launch. people were social butterflies, groups galore, and easy to make friends and guilds.
WoW was born, and the flood gates opened to the socially retarded
Well, vistakah, I think yourself and quite a few other posts nailed my perspective on it already.
When you said "I can say it started post WoW release thats for sure but from a chatty kathy perspected WOW has some busy general spam, mostly young kids. That type of chatter doesn't interest most mature gamers. So we turn general off.", there is a direct example of something that actually promotes killing the element of being social in an MMO game.
Is it a wrong decision? Nobody has a right to make that call. I beliieve anyone who has played MMO games for any length of time has done the exact same thing, I know I have. Another poster has it right when there is so much one-upmanship and desperate need for attention to 'fit' on such a massive scale by, the majority, of younger players, that it simply makes it a hard atmosphere to even try to be social in.
I've always compared it to an actual social situation scenario. Say you're at a party at a friend's house. Some people there you know, others are new people and you go about meeting them and just hanging out. You're talking to a guy or girl, when suddenly some guy you never met before steps in and just goes off in some meth-induced, saliva spewing rage about how amazing his new tricked out car is, and his designer shirt was $400.00, but he doesn't care because he obviously has style and will tell anyone he meets all about it. Repeatedly.
What do you do then? Stay there and listen to him monopolize the situation, knowing full well that there is absolutely no redeeming quality that would have you actually talk to that person in any other circumstance, let alone stand there after your conversation has been disrupted?
Or, simply excuse yourself and find another circle of people that you can actually relate to on a level you're comfortable with?
Now, this form of social retardation is something we can clearly see in about every MMO game, on varying scales. You can ask for assistance in a quest, and be shot at with every "n00b lawlz" overused internet cliche ever typed. You can ask to join someone's group, and be immediately dismissed because your spec was wrong, your skills and gear "unworthy", and then you feel like you've wasted your time even logging in.
Really, you guys know the examples, and you've seen them all. It's nothing new.
So, over time, you take your conversations to your friend lists, guilds and whispers. You form bonds with people you tolerate, and in some rare instances, even respect. It isn't to say that decent, fun communities don't exist (in my recent experience LotRO, offhand, comes to mind as being almost civil), and you never know what luck you'll have with a new PuG group in (insert game here) that actually surprises you with how cool the people you roll with turn out to be.
But in the end, I truly think that communities going badly is pretty much everyone's "fault". The "Awesomeleets" for trying to ruin it, and the rest for just refusing to participate in the silliness.
But then again...
ohmygodhididyouseemynewsword??omgursuchabadicantbelieveuevenloginhere,unsubturnoffurpcthenkillurself????
Now, really.. who could resist charm like that?
K~
Hurt people hurt people.
WoW
I'm not hating on it, I play wow.
I've played UO, EQ, FFXI, DAOC, and many others. All of them had a more social community.
I think it was because they forced you to party with others to do ANYTHING, the solo / questing idea that wow introduced (and EQ2) caused people to not depend on each other as much.
The social aspect declined, its still there just not as strong.
I'm just going to quote myself because I'm a narcissist and because blaiming players is complete bull.
The reason you are blaming players is because of the reasons above. Nr 1 being you don't need anybody to advance anymore. That is purely a game designs fault. If people had to group to advance or atleast advance at much greater speed you would see a much better behaved community since reputations would start to matter. Since MMO's these days are 100% solo friendly nobody is accountable. Hence it is the game designs fault
How did the WOW generation kill social MMO experience. Its your fault you dont try to make friends in the game. I have no probelm making friends in guild and Pug groups and in PVP ( Arenas). When I play AoC and WAR it the was the same. Its like looking for a job. The job just doesnt come to you. You need to put some effort into it.
All MMO's have grinds. If you don't like to Grind then MMO's are not for you.
I'm just going to quote myself because I'm a narcissist and because blaiming players is complete bull.
The reason you are blaming players is because of the reasons above. Nr 1 being you don't need anybody to advance anymore. That is purely a game designs fault. If people had to group to advance or atleast advance at much greater speed you would see a much better behaved community since reputations would start to matter. Since MMO's these days are 100% solo friendly nobody is accountable. Hence it is the game designs fault
Had you read the posts before your original (and I assume you didn't read any after) you would have seen that most of your points are included already. One thing I must point out, however, is that the game designs, as they stand in todays market, are the direct results of what players themselves have been asing for and supporting by purchasing or paying to play them, thus it is indeed the players fault that the games are designed to exclude the social elements as they used to exist.
In a manner of speaking, I agree with pegleg.
Solo content is great for those who prefer it, and enjoy it, but I have grouped all the content, even the technical "solo" content, since my first MMO.
But that's, well... me. Who cares about another nameless, unknown forum poster on the intranetwebs?
I think it just comes down to what YOU, as a player, as a person with a distinct personality, really make of it. Some people are just not social, shy, intorverted, etc. Some really have a desire to meet new people to do thigns with, but are intimidated by a number of aspects that keep them from being more extroverted.
Others, not so much.
So if a game caters to all aspects social types, why would it ever be considered bad? If something doesn't interest you, let's say for sake of being on-topic, a conversation in an MMO general chat, just don't participate. It sounds simplistic, because it is.
The one thing I don't agree with, pegleg, is that finding companions to hang with is compared to a job. If finding some relaxed people to roll in my crew ever turns out to feel like a job in an MMO, then it's seriously time to rethink things...
But I get your point.
K~
Hurt people hurt people.
Ok so I've discussed a bit of this and I agree on a lot of it people but here is a few things that have turned me into how you say selective socializer.
1. - Blind invites. I hate them with a passion even nice players can really irk me cause I can be in the middle of a fight and LOOSE it cause someone pops a big old window up that I have to cancel cause I can't group while in combat. They never ask me whether I want to do something they just assume I will. BIG pet peeve.
2. - Groups arguing over who gets what or a player that is group leader loot Nazi. I hate it so much I make sure group options is round robin or I just don't group. I been in groups that disband on stupid shit like a helm that probably drops 20 times in a run. Really another BIG peeve.
3. - Groups that have a Loafer. Nothing like a experience lecher to really screw a party. They appear afk 99% of the time but as soon as a good loot roll happens they make sure to roll on it. group wipes happen often in these kind of groups.
4. - Group leaders that take impossible encounters just to try to beat it. So they can think themselves pig e-peen. I mean we all get in over I head sometimes but these are just way over the groups capability.
5. - Last and biggest is getting in a group that the leader wipes the group on purpose cause he is 'done' for the night. This is probably the top of the heap cause I care a lot to NOT dieing. Nothing like working 10 levels NOT dieing and have a death cause someone was 'done' for the night. I care about character I role play not just level.
sorry for a rant
I disagree that instancing reduced the social element
When instancing was introduced in the LDoN expansion for Everquest, I grouped with more people than at any other time in the game. Players that previously never socialised outside of their raiding guilds were all of a sudden mixing with other players.
When I played City of Heroes/City of Villains there was heaps of grouping for the instanced missions, and very little grouping outside of the instanced missions. Grouping is more common in in CoH/CoV than for most games I have played.
Instancing is a tool that can work support the social element. It all depends on how it is implemented.
there was as many stupid dumies in EQ1. But back then you learned the names.
Now its main stream, so you get stupid losers + people that have absolutly no reason of playing a mmo.
what has changed is the lvl of nice players.
Not how many stupid ones
Nice players are worthe there weight in Gold.
I think there are many reasons combined that contribute to the social aspects of gaming devolving.
GM's - Any game, especially competative a game, needs to have an unbiased mediator to ensure the game is played within the rules and in the "spirit of the game". This includes MMO's in my opinion. Early games had GM's actively moderating chat, observing players to ensure good behavior and generally moderating the game. Now it seems GM's don't have time to really do anything except superficial tasks. For example I am currently playing AOC and I have had help for broken quests but have no help when it comes to offensive or rude players (personally not IC), exploiters and players not playing "within the spirit of the game". They don't care or don't have the time. And why get rid of a bad egg when they are a source of income?
Time - Games are quicker now. This is partly due to the meeting of RP'ers and FPS'ers I believe. Early games you have time to talk, even during combat. Games nowadays are moving into fast paced or eevn twitch based combat which meant that you can't effecitvely type to communicate. So guilds use Vent or other voice communications. What that means is, only those you already know will communicate with you and strangers or potential friends pass by because no one has enough time to talk.
Faceless and nameless - No one has to take responsibility for their actions or what they say anymore. People have grown wise and realise that if you call someone a shit the best they can do is respond in kind. And so conversations become pointless troll sessions most of the time. And because people don't seem to have much self respect they abuse their invisibility.
There are of course many other reasons combined but for me those are the 3 key area's. The first 2 can be resolved by game makers but I think the 3rd is just a reflection of modern society and until we are forced to accept the consequences for our behavior online then little will change, although it might improve in the first 2 points are addressed.