I keep wondering, why do you need to label games to enjoy it? If you hate the icecream you are eating, will it taste better suddenly if it is called a sandbox cone? Why not assess a game in terms of features? Why not list the aspects of games you enjoy then shop for games strong in those areas? I come to realise that sandbox is a term mixed with hardcore on this forum, and used by some elitists trying to distinguish themselves from the other side: "carebears". They want to show that they cannot stand "dumped down" games, and that by virtue of playing a different game, they are superior. By starting a post like that, you are basically feeding these ppl. Luckily they are either too busy or sleeping, and so far, the flame war has not yet started.
I never said I needed to label a game. That was done many years ago. I've never played what I would call a sandbox MMO, soooo, I was asking for opinions on it. I'm not quite sure why it rubbed you the wrong way, but the fact that it ISN'T a flame war just makes me wonder why you would even post something like the above?
We wouldn't need to label our favorite MMOs if developers didnt stray so far from the original intent of the genre. Bastardize the genre and this is what happens.
Blahhh... blahhh random stufff....... sub numbers.... blahhh.... Old MMOs suxerzzzz...... I need easy funzzzz !?!?!?!!!1111
Yeah I got ya.
Well I sure am happy not every developer caters to you guys. With what five sandbox games releasing this year?
Guess Devs are listening to us.
Oh and news flash buddy, MMos are still played by Nerds and geeks. dont think your special because your playing WoW.
Walk down any street and ask a normal person what they think of a person playing MMOs all day? you would get the same reaction as a person who played everquest back in 99.
We wouldn't need to label our favorite MMOs if developers didnt stray so far from the original intent of the genre. Bastardize the genre and this is what happens.
Blahhh... blahhh random stufff....... sub numbers.... blahhh.... Old MMOs suxerzzzz...... I need easy funzzzz !?!?!?!!!1111
Yeah I got ya.
Well I sure am happy not every developer caters to you guys. With what five sandbox games releasing this year?
Guess Devs are listening to us.
Oh and news flash buddy, MMos are still played by Nerds and geeks. dont think your special because your playing WoW.
Walk down any street and ask a normal person what they think of a person playing MMOs all day? you would get the same reaction as a person who played everquest back in 99.
News flash. MOST people don't play MMOs all day. Certainly not anymore, which is a damn good thing. Only the nerds and geeks still do. We're talking gamers anyway, not "normal people", hehe. Ask anyone who actually plays videogames semi-regularly what WOW is and I'd bet they know. Ask them what UO is and you know the response to that. I'm not special for playing WOW, but you're not special, more knowledgable, or more enlightened because you enjoyed UO or EQ either=) You didn't say it, but its quite common for MMO vets to come off as elitist, thinking all the stupid sheeple don't know any better.
News flash. MOST people don't play MMOs all day. Certainly not anymore, which is a damn good thing. Only the nerds and geeks still do. We're talking gamers anyway, not "normal people", hehe. Ask anyone who actually plays videogames semi-regularly what WOW is and I'd bet they know. Ask them what UO is and you know the response to that. I'm not special for playing WOW, but you're not special, more knowledgable, or more enlightened because you enjoyed UO or EQ either=) You didn't say it, but its quite common for MMO vets to come off as elitist, thinking all the stupid sheeple don't know any better.
Of course I didn't say I was superior. Bro these are video games. Also Geeks don't play MMOs all day losers without jobs do, Big difference.
For me the big difference between themepark and sandbox MMos are the game worlds.
To me a themepark is static, it stays the same, players dont really effect the world at all and Developers impose backward gating to your game world. (gating is when a developer creates new content making old worthless)
What's so wrong with wanting a non-static world? Do you enjoy the gating in WoW? my biggest complaint in WoW was when blizzard released an Xpac and made old Raid content and high level zones worthless.
In my games when a Xpac is released the content is added to the existing world, there's no gating. the old stuff is still meaningful.
Wouldn't you want that in WoW? wouldnt you rather every raid/zone to be worth something? instead of being pushed by blizzard in there new high level zones?
I know people that play WoW complain about blizzard making old content worthless. Hell with all that cash blizzard refuses to go back and make the old raids heroic version, they refuse to go back and make old high content zones heroic. Jesus dude they wont even let you guys fly in Azeroth. how easy would it be for blizzard to hire a team to do that stuff over time?
Why play an MMO if your limited to 3-4 zones?
I don't think wanting a non-static gameworld is a crime, wanting all the content I paid for to still be viable at high levels isnt too much to ask for.
When blizzard was asked about making old content worthless, they simply stated "we've been playing that content long enough, it's time to move on" .
Personally I refuse to give my money to a developer that acts like that. Telling me when I should move on...... and you call this the future of MMOs? They get to tell me what content im gonna play and what i should be finished with, Yet I have no say in how my money is spent?
They get to use our money for SC2, Diablo 3, a new mmo and battle.net revamps instead of stuff I really want like old dungeons/raids as a heroic version, flight in Azeroth and a reason to go back to azeroth that isnt a caverns of time instance.
For me the big difference between themepark and sandbox MMos are the game worlds. To me a themepark is static, it stays the same, players dont really effect the world at all and Developers impose backward gating to your game world. (gating is when a developer creates new content making old worthless) What's so wrong with wanting a non-static world? Do you enjoy the gating in WoW? my biggest complaint in WoW was when blizzard released an Xpac and made old Raid content and high level zones worthless. In my games when a Xpac is released the content is added to the existing world, there's no gating. the old stuff is still meaningful. Wouldn't you want that in WoW? wouldnt you rather every raid/zone to be worth something? instead of being pushed by blizzard in there new high level zones? I know people that play WoW complain about blizzard making old content worthless. Hell with all that cash blizzard refuses to go back and make the old raids heroic version, they refuse to go back and make old high content zones heroic. Jesus dude they wont even let you guys fly in Azeroth. how easy would it be for blizzard to hire a team to do that stuff over time? Why play an MMO if your limited to 3-4 zones? I don't think wanting a non-static gameworld is a crime, wanting all the content I paid for to still be viable at high levels isnt too much to ask for. When blizzard was asked about making old content worthless, they simply stated "we've been playing that content long enough, it's time to move on" . Personally I refuse to give my money to a developer that acts like that. Telling me when I should move on...... and you call this the future of MMOs? They get to tell me what content im gonna play and what i should be finished with, Yet I have no say in how my money is spent? They get to use our money for SC2, Diablo 3, a new mmo and battle.net revamps instead of stuff I really want like old dungeons/raids as a heroic version, flight in Azeroth and a reason to go back to azeroth that isnt a caverns of time instance.
You once again single out WoW for having a characterestic that is common to ALL MMOs.
When a game releases new content that is superior yet similarly accessible to old content then people will abandom that old content. That is equally true for 'sandbox' games and 'linear' games.
Blizzard is not forcing anyone to 'move on'. They simply realize that the majority of players when presented with new content will choose to go ahead and leave old content behind. As such they will not devote significant resources to content that few people want to go back to. The old content is still there for anyone to play who wants to. It's hardly worthless. It's simply not the content with the most worth anymore.
Lets see right now we have Eve, Ryzom, Wurm and DF.
For the life of me I connot remember when a Xpac released for these games that made any content worthless.
Eve just released an Xpac what did they make worthless? hell eve even did What WoW couldn't do they created a new tier of item and didnt make the earlier tiers useless.
Think hard let me know what content is worthless, I'll be waiting a very long time.
Oh and when I speak of WoW im talking about every themepark.
Only using WoW as an example since you seem to think its popularity means WoW is the focus for todays MMOs.
Totally forgetting the themeparks that have released in the last 4 years that are all Niche lol.
LOL do you play Sandbox MMOs at all? Lets see right now we have Eve, Ryzom, Wurm and DF. For the life of me I connot remember when a Xpac released for these games that made any content worthless. Eve just released an Xpac what did they make worthless? hell eve even did What WoW couldn't do they created a new tier of item and didnt make the earlier tiers useless. Think hard let me know what content is worthless, I'll be waiting a very long time. Oh and when I speak of WoW im talking about every themepark. Only using WoW as an example since you seem to think its popularity means WoW is the focus for todays MMOs. Totally forgetting the themeparks that have released in the last 4 years that are all Niche lol. have a good day! lol
{Mod Edit}. You seem to hate on WoW and WoW clones just because for whatever reason. Saying old content gets useless is a pretty poor example when saying those things make the game suck. Something must be working since it only has I dunno more subs than all those MMOs you mentioned.
I'm just guessing you are a DF fan, at least you sound like one in your reasoning. That also is not a sandbox game even if they call it that. Set player housing + 50% of the features not working is not sandbox. Ryzom is hardly sandbox. What defines sandbox for you? open world pvp and a crafting system? Not having "gates" as you call it? If that is the case SWG is a sandbox game more so than all those others you mentioned.
LOL do you play Sandbox MMOs at all? Lets see right now we have Eve, Ryzom, Wurm and DF. For the life of me I connot remember when a Xpac released for these games that made any content worthless. Eve just released an Xpac what did they make worthless? hell eve even did What WoW couldn't do they created a new tier of item and didnt make the earlier tiers useless. Think hard let me know what content is worthless, I'll be waiting a very long time. Oh and when I speak of WoW im talking about every themepark. Only using WoW as an example since you seem to think its popularity means WoW is the focus for todays MMOs. Totally forgetting the themeparks that have released in the last 4 years that are all Niche lol. have a good day! lol
{Mod Edit}. You seem to hate on WoW and WoW clones just because for whatever reason. Saying old content gets useless is a pretty poor example when saying those things make the game suck. Something must be working since it only has I dunno more subs than all those MMOs you mentioned.
I'm just guessing you are a DF fan, at least you sound like one in your reasoning. That also is not a sandbox game even if they call it that. Set player housing + 50% of the features not working is not sandbox. Ryzom is hardly sandbox. What defines sandbox for you? open world pvp and a crafting system? Not having "gates" as you call it? If that is the case SWG is a sandbox game more so than all those others you mentioned.
{Mod Edit}
You are totally right I am a nerd *rolls eyes*
OH and awesome using the Subscription Defense when talking about WoW LOL! that was very original.
I'm sorry if you like limited content, limited customization and progression and a totally Static world.
I sure don't and thankfully other players agree with me. Enough that Devs are making new sandbox games, sure they may be niche but thats fine. Give me a tight knit community not filled with pre-teens that enjoy crafting, exploring and cutting eachother to bits and im good.
Have fun with that 11.5 million playerbase you got there, even though you dont even play with more then 3-5k due to server caps. I'll have my fun in Eve with almost 60k players in a single world thats actually a living breathing evolving Universe.
peace
Edit: Oh and I don't play DF sorry, Eves Xpac released to close to DFs release and now im back exploring a actual world simulation.
LOL do you play Sandbox MMOs at all? Lets see right now we have Eve, Ryzom, Wurm and DF. For the life of me I connot remember when a Xpac released for these games that made any content worthless. Eve just released an Xpac what did they make worthless? hell eve even did What WoW couldn't do they created a new tier of item and didnt make the earlier tiers useless. Think hard let me know what content is worthless, I'll be waiting a very long time. Oh and when I speak of WoW im talking about every themepark. Only using WoW as an example since you seem to think its popularity means WoW is the focus for todays MMOs. Totally forgetting the themeparks that have released in the last 4 years that are all Niche lol. have a good day! lol
{Mod Edit}. You seem to hate on WoW and WoW clones just because for whatever reason. Saying old content gets useless is a pretty poor example when saying those things make the game suck. Something must be working since it only has I dunno more subs than all those MMOs you mentioned.
I'm just guessing you are a DF fan, at least you sound like one in your reasoning. That also is not a sandbox game even if they call it that. Set player housing + 50% of the features not working is not sandbox. Ryzom is hardly sandbox. What defines sandbox for you? open world pvp and a crafting system? Not having "gates" as you call it? If that is the case SWG is a sandbox game more so than all those others you mentioned.
{Mod Edit}
You are totally right I am a nerd *rolls eyes*
OH and awesome using the Subscription Defense when talking about WoW LOL! that was very original.
I'm sorry if you like limited content, limited customization and progression and a totally Static world.
I sure don't and thankfully other players agree with me. Enough that Devs are making new sandbox games, sure they may be niche but thats fine. Give me a tight knit community not filled with pre-teens that enjoy crafting, exploring and cutting eachother to bits and im good.
Have fun with that 11.5 million playerbase you got there, even though you dont even play with more then 3-5k due to server caps. I'll have my fun in Eve with almost 60k players in a single world thats actually a living breathing evolving Universe.
peace
Edit: Oh and I don't play DF sorry, Eves Xpac released to close to DFs release and now im back exploring a actual world simulation.
{Mod Edit}
I also love the downplaying of those "million" of players also. Elvis was the King of Rock and Roll because he was the first MILLION seller RnR'ller. The Beatles were the King of the 60 because of the first million new POP sales.
As it happens to be, Wow is the King of MMORPG's (and commercially wise even to ALL video games of the last 30 years) to "sell" such insane amounts of long term subscriptions. (5.000.000 * 6 bimonthly subcards = the equivalent of 30.000.000 copies each year in the western world ALONE).
So leave Brittney Spears out of the discussion, she is just another pop artist, she can't be compared in her industry with the gigantic sales AND subs hit Wow is.
---
We understand you don't like Wow. But this "grown up" stuff and "I play the BIG mmorpg's" is so childish.
So be prepared to be frustrated even the following decades as Elvis is already more than 30 years dead and he is still considered to be the King of the Rock and roll "genre".
Going off with my self crafted helicopter and chopper and ... I didn't have to do one quest to craft it.
Vrrroom... Whatch out for your feet in EVE ... (oh I didn't see them...).
There are as many definitions of an mmorpg as there are players. Sandbox is just one of those 20.000.000 definitions.
Is the vanity of the WoW fanboy such that they can't accept another game being popular on its own merits? Who cares if EVE Online is popular? Who cares if they don't have helicopters or avatars? People don't play EVE for those. CCP isn't even after the WoW market -- and now you're blaming them for that? After saying how all the other MMO's in the past year have come short because they paled in comparison to WoW?
EVE doesn't try to be WoW.
Darkfall doesn't try to be WoW.
Pirates of the Burning Sea doesn't try to be WoW.
And that's just the three games that come to mind, either because they have completely different settings (one scifi, the other historical), or because they have mechanics that WoW would never even consider doing (full-loot PvP, meaningful RvR). Would you want to see them gone, all to the last one, because they offer an alternative to WoW? If they fail, let it be on their own flaws, not because they're not World of Warcraft. It's bad enough that it is what WAR tried to do and fell flat on its face.
If I want to blame EVE for anything, it's their general idea that scamming and extortion are fine. Having no avatars is way, way down my list. (And if you want to know, guess what they've been saying about Pirates of the Burning Sea? That avatars should have been left out of the game, as it was originally intended, to focus on ship combat. Probably would flunk the Zorndorf Board of Review, but meh.)
LOL do you play Sandbox MMOs at all? Lets see right now we have Eve, Ryzom, Wurm and DF. For the life of me I connot remember when a Xpac released for these games that made any content worthless. Eve just released an Xpac what did they make worthless? hell eve even did What WoW couldn't do they created a new tier of item and didnt make the earlier tiers useless. Think hard let me know what content is worthless, I'll be waiting a very long time. Oh and when I speak of WoW im talking about every themepark. Only using WoW as an example since you seem to think its popularity means WoW is the focus for todays MMOs. Totally forgetting the themeparks that have released in the last 4 years that are all Niche lol. have a good day! lol
{Mod Edit}. You seem to hate on WoW and WoW clones just because for whatever reason. Saying old content gets useless is a pretty poor example when saying those things make the game suck. Something must be working since it only has I dunno more subs than all those MMOs you mentioned.
I'm just guessing you are a DF fan, at least you sound like one in your reasoning. That also is not a sandbox game even if they call it that. Set player housing + 50% of the features not working is not sandbox. Ryzom is hardly sandbox. What defines sandbox for you? open world pvp and a crafting system? Not having "gates" as you call it? If that is the case SWG is a sandbox game more so than all those others you mentioned.
{Mod Edit}
You are totally right I am a nerd *rolls eyes*
OH and awesome using the Subscription Defense when talking about WoW LOL! that was very original.
I'm sorry if you like limited content, limited customization and progression and a totally Static world.
I sure don't and thankfully other players agree with me. Enough that Devs are making new sandbox games, sure they may be niche but thats fine. Give me a tight knit community not filled with pre-teens that enjoy crafting, exploring and cutting eachother to bits and im good.
Have fun with that 11.5 million playerbase you got there, even though you dont even play with more then 3-5k due to server caps. I'll have my fun in Eve with almost 60k players in a single world thats actually a living breathing evolving Universe.
peace
Edit: Oh and I don't play DF sorry, Eves Xpac released to close to DFs release and now im back exploring a actual world simulation.
{Mod Edit}
I also love the downplaying of those "million" of players also. Elvis was the King of Rock and Roll because he was the first MILLION seller RnR'ller. The Beatles were the King of the 60 because of the first million new POP sales.
As it happens to be, Wow is the King of MMORPG's (and commercially wise even to ALL video games of the last 30 years) to "sell" such insane amounts of long term subscriptions. (5.000.000 * 6 bimonthly subcards = the equivalent of 30.000.000 copies each year in the western world ALONE).
So leave Brittney Spears out of the discussion, she is just another pop artist, she can't be compared in her industry with the gigantic sales AND subs hit Wow is.
---
We understand you don't like Wow. But this "grown up" stuff and "I play the BIG mmorpg's" is so childish.
So be prepared to be frustrated even the following decades as Elvis is already more than 30 years dead and he is still considered to be the King of the Rock and roll "genre".
Going off with my self crafted helicopter and chopper and ... I didn't have to do one quest to craft it.
Vrrroom... Whatch out for your feet in EVE ... (oh I didn't see them...).
There are as many definitions of an mmorpg as there are players. Sandbox is just one of those 20.000.000 definitions.
Is the vanity of the WoW fanboy such that they can't accept another game being popular on its own merits? Who cares if EVE Online is popular? Who cares if they don't have helicopters or avatars? People don't play EVE for those. CCP isn't even after the WoW market -- and now you're blaming them for that? After saying how all the other MMO's in the past year have come short because they paled in comparison to WoW?
EVE doesn't try to be WoW.
Darkfall doesn't try to be WoW.
Pirates of the Burning Sea doesn't try to be WoW.
And that's just the three games that come to mind, either because they have completely different settings (one scifi, the other historical), or because they have mechanics that WoW would never even consider doing (full-loot PvP, meaningful RvR). Would you want to see them gone, all to the last one, because they offer an alternative to WoW? If they fail, let it be on their own flaws, not because they're not World of Warcraft. It's bad enough that it is what WAR tried to do and fell flat on its face.
If I want to blame EVE for anything, it's their general idea that scamming and extortion are fine. Having no avatars is way, way down my list. (And if you want to know, guess what they've been saying about Pirates of the Burning Sea? That avatars should have been left out of the game, as it was originally intended, to focus on ship combat. Probably would flunk the Zorndorf Board of Review, but meh.)
I don't wanna blame EVE for anything. All I said was that there are 20.000.000 different definitions of an mmorpg.
Apparently a moderator has gone snip-snip over most of what you had written about EVE. I seem to recall something about "spreadsheets", but I'm not sure why that was cut. To each his own, really. If EVE has a functional economy, all the better -- I wasn't really impressed with what I saw of the economy in WoW.
And "sandbox" is just one of those 20.000.000 definitions. Everyone makes one up. THAT IS the TOPIC dude.
I agree that there are many variations on what people would consider a sandbox. But by my standards, WoW ain't one of those.
So stating that one mmorpg is for the "real" or "bigger" or "harder" mmorpg player or "sandboxer" is false.
I for one never argued this. I perfectly agree with you on this. I find that whole e-peen measurement thing repulsive and laughable, and it's what makes those sandbox games pretty much unplayable if you seek something else. Latest case in point: Darkfall. With all that has been recorded about that game, why would I want to even try it?
I use the examples above to show it to you. A crafted helicopter in "themeparc" Wow and a feetlless ever sitting avatar in "sandbox" Eve.
But you only want to hate Zorndorf without reading his posts. So better read the lines I type next time.
I'm too busy reading between them, where the fun is.
PS The Britney Spears analogy doesn't make sense because she represents no u n i q u e "King" or "Queen" status in pop music, like Elvis or The Beatles were. In YOUR analogy BS is something in the order of a weak Vanguard commercial success. Good for some sold units, but no commercial "trend" success in the pop scene in the long run. And of course Wow is the King in its branche. King status is more than just a quick "popular" object. It means SINGLE most succesful in the complete branche. There is only one King.
I disagree with this on two counts.
1) Assuming there is a "King" just creates a pecking order among things. If Elvis is "King", what does that make Jerry Lee Lewis? Johnny Cash? Any other rock or R&B artist? Losers? Does that say they are inferior artistically? Which brings in Number 2,
2) The pecking order it creates is purely commercial. Quality can't readily be measured (and the standards would vary anyway), but record sales can. It does not justify, however, that whoever ends up on top is necessarily better. Say that WoW is commercial king of MMO's and I don't think you will find anyone willing to dispute that -- because you'd be clearly setting out which criterion you're using to reach that conclusion.
You might say that #2 is the only criterion that matters for people publishing games, and both my realism and cynicism agree with you on this. But here's the thing -- we're not game publishers. I'm not even a stockholder. I am a player, and nothing more. Talk to me of commercial success and I'm thinking, none of this goes into my pocket, why should I care? As long as the game is popular enough for the plug not to be pulled on it, financial considerations don't matter per se. And ironically, they might have a twisted influence on other games being made, and that would go in the list of arguments against WoW instead of for it. I think of Wal-Mart as an apt comparison point here: If it is successful at the expense of everything else, is that really a good thing?
But the Britney analogy is valid, because (1) she is popular and (2) has been lambasted by critics. What the Britney example demonstrates is that Popular does not equal Good, nor does it equal Bad. That Elvis had 50,000,000 fans doesn't necessarily make them right, nor does it necessarily make them wrong.Doesn't matter who you pick, Celine Dion or Madonna would do equally well, I'm sure. If you want, make the comparison with Budweiser, the King of Beers (remark also how royalty status is easily picked up by marketing departments). Popularity is meaningless outside of commercial considerations, which isn't what we as gamers need to worry about.
Poor little Z and the WoW action squad. Following me into threads linking old quotes of me talking about my son(a little 10 year old) enjoying WoW? That's kind of scarey, A little obsessed? boarderline harassment? You take this stuff too seriously Z.
You should be having fun on these boards, not attacking people that have a negative opinion on a videogame lol.
Yeah, it's all part of Z's charm.
Until the moderators of this site bother checking out what he writes and decide to act accordingly, just go through his back posts and quote him back. The journey is as pleasant as a guided tour down a septic tank.
Poor little Z and the WoW action squad. Following me into threads linking old quotes of me talking about my son(a little 10 year old) enjoying WoW? That's kind of scarey, A little obsessed? boarderline harassment? You take this stuff too seriously Z.
You should be having fun on these boards, not attacking people that have a negative opinion on a videogame lol.
Yeah, it's all part of Z's charm.
Until the moderators of this site bother checking out what he writes and decide to act accordingly, just go through his back posts and quote him back. The journey is as pleasant as a guided tour down a septic tank.
I consider quoting old threads and following a specific poster around to discredit them harassment.
I personally wouldnt do that.
While I may have a more unpleasent view on most themepark games in the genre, the way he and others act in my threads is quite shocking. Like children fighting over which superhero would win in a fight, then having that verbal fight lead into momma jokes and ultimately leading to a school yard brawl.
Poor little Z and the WoW action squad. Following me into threads linking old quotes of me talking about my son(a little 10 year old) enjoying WoW? That's kind of scarey, A little obsessed? boarderline harassment? You take this stuff too seriously Z.
You should be having fun on these boards, not attacking people that have a negative opinion on a videogame lol.
Yeah, it's all part of Z's charm.
Until the moderators of this site bother checking out what he writes and decide to act accordingly, just go through his back posts and quote him back. The journey is as pleasant as a guided tour down a septic tank.
I consider quoting old threads and following a specific poster around to discredit them harassment.
I personally wouldnt do that.
While I may have a more unpleasent view on most sandbox games in the genre, the way he and others act in my threads is quite shocking. Like children fighting over which superhero would win in a fight, then having that verbal fight lead into momma jokes and ultimately leading to a school yard brawl.
It's childish behavior tbh. I'm above that.
I tend to be of the view that if the purpose is to show inconsistencies or double standards on the part of someone, it is perfectly acceptable. I just call it research material. But you're right, it is a very fine line indeed between building up an argument with evidence and cyberstalking. I myself would want nothing to do with the latter.
I'm just sorry he dragged your kid into this. But things are weird in that WoW forum, as though the climate of intimidation were so strong that nobody would dare denounce how outrageously some of those posters behave.
LOL do you play Sandbox MMOs at all? Lets see right now we have Eve, Ryzom, Wurm and DF. For the life of me I connot remember when a Xpac released for these games that made any content worthless. Eve just released an Xpac what did they make worthless? hell eve even did What WoW couldn't do they created a new tier of item and didnt make the earlier tiers useless. Think hard let me know what content is worthless, I'll be waiting a very long time. Oh and when I speak of WoW im talking about every themepark. Only using WoW as an example since you seem to think its popularity means WoW is the focus for todays MMOs. Totally forgetting the themeparks that have released in the last 4 years that are all Niche lol. have a good day! lol
I first played EVE back in 2003 for about four months. In 2008 I went back and played it for two months.
There were significant changes between how the game played in 2003 and 2008. My 2008 character was much richer and powerful after two months of gameplay then my 2003 was after twice that long. In 2003 I also played many more hours per day then I can now. My 2008 character had access to tools and progression paths that were not available in 2003. As such I could skip a lot of 'start-up' content and concentrate on other areas I now had reasonable access to. I could still do things the way I did back in 2003 but there was no real reason to since superior alternatives were available and I did not really like that content to begin with. It was a necessary part of the progression path in 2003 but since then the game had evolved and it was now an obsolete way of doing things.
LOL do you play Sandbox MMOs at all? Lets see right now we have Eve, Ryzom, Wurm and DF. For the life of me I connot remember when a Xpac released for these games that made any content worthless. Eve just released an Xpac what did they make worthless? hell eve even did What WoW couldn't do they created a new tier of item and didnt make the earlier tiers useless. Think hard let me know what content is worthless, I'll be waiting a very long time. Oh and when I speak of WoW im talking about every themepark. Only using WoW as an example since you seem to think its popularity means WoW is the focus for todays MMOs. Totally forgetting the themeparks that have released in the last 4 years that are all Niche lol. have a good day! lol
I first played EVE back in 2003 for about four months. In 2008 I went back and played it for two months.
There were significant changes between how the game played in 2003 and 2008. My 2008 character was much richer and powerful after two months of gameplay then my 2003 was after twice that long. In 2003 I also played many more hours per day then I can now. My 2008 character had access to tools and progression paths that were not available in 2003. As such I could skip a lot of 'start-up' content and concentrate on other areas I now had reasonable access to. I could still do things the way I did back in 2003 but there was no real reason to since superior alternatives were available and I did not really like that content to begin with. It was a necessary part of the progression path in 2003 but since then the game had evolved and it was now an obsolete way of doing things.
Care to give me some example of these "Start-up" content your talking about?
I would also like to know what content you felt there was no reason to do anymore?
Also please give me an example of Obsolete features/content in Eve.
I find this post interesting and news to me since i've been playing eve almost 4 years and nothing is obsolete.
Comments
I never said I needed to label a game. That was done many years ago. I've never played what I would call a sandbox MMO, soooo, I was asking for opinions on it. I'm not quite sure why it rubbed you the wrong way, but the fact that it ISN'T a flame war just makes me wonder why you would even post something like the above?
Z
http://www.TheIronZ.com
Blahhh... blahhh random stufff....... sub numbers.... blahhh.... Old MMOs suxerzzzz...... I need easy funzzzz !?!?!?!!!1111Yeah I got ya.
Well I sure am happy not every developer caters to you guys. With what five sandbox games releasing this year?
Guess Devs are listening to us.
Oh and news flash buddy, MMos are still played by Nerds and geeks. dont think your special because your playing WoW.
Walk down any street and ask a normal person what they think of a person playing MMOs all day? you would get the same reaction as a person who played everquest back in 99.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Blahhh... blahhh random stufff....... sub numbers.... blahhh.... Old MMOs suxerzzzz...... I need easy funzzzz !?!?!?!!!1111Yeah I got ya.
Well I sure am happy not every developer caters to you guys. With what five sandbox games releasing this year?
Guess Devs are listening to us.
Oh and news flash buddy, MMos are still played by Nerds and geeks. dont think your special because your playing WoW.
Walk down any street and ask a normal person what they think of a person playing MMOs all day? you would get the same reaction as a person who played everquest back in 99.
News flash. MOST people don't play MMOs all day. Certainly not anymore, which is a damn good thing. Only the nerds and geeks still do. We're talking gamers anyway, not "normal people", hehe. Ask anyone who actually plays videogames semi-regularly what WOW is and I'd bet they know. Ask them what UO is and you know the response to that. I'm not special for playing WOW, but you're not special, more knowledgable, or more enlightened because you enjoyed UO or EQ either=) You didn't say it, but its quite common for MMO vets to come off as elitist, thinking all the stupid sheeple don't know any better.
Words....
Words.....News flash. MOST people don't play MMOs all day. Certainly not anymore, which is a damn good thing. Only the nerds and geeks still do. We're talking gamers anyway, not "normal people", hehe. Ask anyone who actually plays videogames semi-regularly what WOW is and I'd bet they know. Ask them what UO is and you know the response to that. I'm not special for playing WOW, but you're not special, more knowledgable, or more enlightened because you enjoyed UO or EQ either=) You didn't say it, but its quite common for MMO vets to come off as elitist, thinking all the stupid sheeple don't know any better.
Of course I didn't say I was superior. Bro these are video games. Also Geeks don't play MMOs all day losers without jobs do, Big difference.
For me the big difference between themepark and sandbox MMos are the game worlds.
To me a themepark is static, it stays the same, players dont really effect the world at all and Developers impose backward gating to your game world. (gating is when a developer creates new content making old worthless)
What's so wrong with wanting a non-static world? Do you enjoy the gating in WoW? my biggest complaint in WoW was when blizzard released an Xpac and made old Raid content and high level zones worthless.
In my games when a Xpac is released the content is added to the existing world, there's no gating. the old stuff is still meaningful.
Wouldn't you want that in WoW? wouldnt you rather every raid/zone to be worth something? instead of being pushed by blizzard in there new high level zones?
I know people that play WoW complain about blizzard making old content worthless. Hell with all that cash blizzard refuses to go back and make the old raids heroic version, they refuse to go back and make old high content zones heroic. Jesus dude they wont even let you guys fly in Azeroth. how easy would it be for blizzard to hire a team to do that stuff over time?
Why play an MMO if your limited to 3-4 zones?
I don't think wanting a non-static gameworld is a crime, wanting all the content I paid for to still be viable at high levels isnt too much to ask for.
When blizzard was asked about making old content worthless, they simply stated "we've been playing that content long enough, it's time to move on" .
Personally I refuse to give my money to a developer that acts like that. Telling me when I should move on...... and you call this the future of MMOs? They get to tell me what content im gonna play and what i should be finished with, Yet I have no say in how my money is spent?
They get to use our money for SC2, Diablo 3, a new mmo and battle.net revamps instead of stuff I really want like old dungeons/raids as a heroic version, flight in Azeroth and a reason to go back to azeroth that isnt a caverns of time instance.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
You once again single out WoW for having a characterestic that is common to ALL MMOs.
When a game releases new content that is superior yet similarly accessible to old content then people will abandom that old content. That is equally true for 'sandbox' games and 'linear' games.
Blizzard is not forcing anyone to 'move on'. They simply realize that the majority of players when presented with new content will choose to go ahead and leave old content behind. As such they will not devote significant resources to content that few people want to go back to. The old content is still there for anyone to play who wants to. It's hardly worthless. It's simply not the content with the most worth anymore.
LOL do you play Sandbox MMOs at all?
Lets see right now we have Eve, Ryzom, Wurm and DF.
For the life of me I connot remember when a Xpac released for these games that made any content worthless.
Eve just released an Xpac what did they make worthless? hell eve even did What WoW couldn't do they created a new tier of item and didnt make the earlier tiers useless.
Think hard let me know what content is worthless, I'll be waiting a very long time.
Oh and when I speak of WoW im talking about every themepark.
Only using WoW as an example since you seem to think its popularity means WoW is the focus for todays MMOs.
Totally forgetting the themeparks that have released in the last 4 years that are all Niche lol.
have a good day! lol
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
{Mod Edit}. You seem to hate on WoW and WoW clones just because for whatever reason. Saying old content gets useless is a pretty poor example when saying those things make the game suck. Something must be working since it only has I dunno more subs than all those MMOs you mentioned.
I'm just guessing you are a DF fan, at least you sound like one in your reasoning. That also is not a sandbox game even if they call it that. Set player housing + 50% of the features not working is not sandbox. Ryzom is hardly sandbox. What defines sandbox for you? open world pvp and a crafting system? Not having "gates" as you call it? If that is the case SWG is a sandbox game more so than all those others you mentioned.
{Mod Edit}
{Mod Edit}. You seem to hate on WoW and WoW clones just because for whatever reason. Saying old content gets useless is a pretty poor example when saying those things make the game suck. Something must be working since it only has I dunno more subs than all those MMOs you mentioned.
I'm just guessing you are a DF fan, at least you sound like one in your reasoning. That also is not a sandbox game even if they call it that. Set player housing + 50% of the features not working is not sandbox. Ryzom is hardly sandbox. What defines sandbox for you? open world pvp and a crafting system? Not having "gates" as you call it? If that is the case SWG is a sandbox game more so than all those others you mentioned.
{Mod Edit}
You are totally right I am a nerd *rolls eyes*
OH and awesome using the Subscription Defense when talking about WoW LOL! that was very original.
I'm sorry if you like limited content, limited customization and progression and a totally Static world.
I sure don't and thankfully other players agree with me. Enough that Devs are making new sandbox games, sure they may be niche but thats fine. Give me a tight knit community not filled with pre-teens that enjoy crafting, exploring and cutting eachother to bits and im good.
Have fun with that 11.5 million playerbase you got there, even though you dont even play with more then 3-5k due to server caps. I'll have my fun in Eve with almost 60k players in a single world thats actually a living breathing evolving Universe.
peace
Edit: Oh and I don't play DF sorry, Eves Xpac released to close to DFs release and now im back exploring a actual world simulation.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
{Mod Edit}. You seem to hate on WoW and WoW clones just because for whatever reason. Saying old content gets useless is a pretty poor example when saying those things make the game suck. Something must be working since it only has I dunno more subs than all those MMOs you mentioned.
I'm just guessing you are a DF fan, at least you sound like one in your reasoning. That also is not a sandbox game even if they call it that. Set player housing + 50% of the features not working is not sandbox. Ryzom is hardly sandbox. What defines sandbox for you? open world pvp and a crafting system? Not having "gates" as you call it? If that is the case SWG is a sandbox game more so than all those others you mentioned.
{Mod Edit}
You are totally right I am a nerd *rolls eyes*
OH and awesome using the Subscription Defense when talking about WoW LOL! that was very original.
I'm sorry if you like limited content, limited customization and progression and a totally Static world.
I sure don't and thankfully other players agree with me. Enough that Devs are making new sandbox games, sure they may be niche but thats fine. Give me a tight knit community not filled with pre-teens that enjoy crafting, exploring and cutting eachother to bits and im good.
Have fun with that 11.5 million playerbase you got there, even though you dont even play with more then 3-5k due to server caps. I'll have my fun in Eve with almost 60k players in a single world thats actually a living breathing evolving Universe.
peace
Edit: Oh and I don't play DF sorry, Eves Xpac released to close to DFs release and now im back exploring a actual world simulation.
{Mod Edit}I also love the downplaying of those "million" of players also. Elvis was the King of Rock and Roll because he was the first MILLION seller RnR'ller. The Beatles were the King of the 60 because of the first million new POP sales.
As it happens to be, Wow is the King of MMORPG's (and commercially wise even to ALL video games of the last 30 years) to "sell" such insane amounts of long term subscriptions. (5.000.000 * 6 bimonthly subcards = the equivalent of 30.000.000 copies each year in the western world ALONE).
So leave Brittney Spears out of the discussion, she is just another pop artist, she can't be compared in her industry with the gigantic sales AND subs hit Wow is.
---
We understand you don't like Wow. But this "grown up" stuff and "I play the BIG mmorpg's" is so childish.
So be prepared to be frustrated even the following decades as Elvis is already more than 30 years dead and he is still considered to be the King of the Rock and roll "genre".
Going off with my self crafted helicopter and chopper and ... I didn't have to do one quest to craft it.
Vrrroom... Whatch out for your feet in EVE ... (oh I didn't see them...).
There are as many definitions of an mmorpg as there are players. Sandbox is just one of those 20.000.000 definitions.
Is the vanity of the WoW fanboy such that they can't accept another game being popular on its own merits? Who cares if EVE Online is popular? Who cares if they don't have helicopters or avatars? People don't play EVE for those. CCP isn't even after the WoW market -- and now you're blaming them for that? After saying how all the other MMO's in the past year have come short because they paled in comparison to WoW?
EVE doesn't try to be WoW.
Darkfall doesn't try to be WoW.
Pirates of the Burning Sea doesn't try to be WoW.
And that's just the three games that come to mind, either because they have completely different settings (one scifi, the other historical), or because they have mechanics that WoW would never even consider doing (full-loot PvP, meaningful RvR). Would you want to see them gone, all to the last one, because they offer an alternative to WoW? If they fail, let it be on their own flaws, not because they're not World of Warcraft. It's bad enough that it is what WAR tried to do and fell flat on its face.
As for Britney Spears, the comparison holds. Something being popular doesn't make it good -- as you've been told time and again.
If I want to blame EVE for anything, it's their general idea that scamming and extortion are fine. Having no avatars is way, way down my list. (And if you want to know, guess what they've been saying about Pirates of the Burning Sea? That avatars should have been left out of the game, as it was originally intended, to focus on ship combat. Probably would flunk the Zorndorf Board of Review, but meh.)
{Mod Edit}. You seem to hate on WoW and WoW clones just because for whatever reason. Saying old content gets useless is a pretty poor example when saying those things make the game suck. Something must be working since it only has I dunno more subs than all those MMOs you mentioned.
I'm just guessing you are a DF fan, at least you sound like one in your reasoning. That also is not a sandbox game even if they call it that. Set player housing + 50% of the features not working is not sandbox. Ryzom is hardly sandbox. What defines sandbox for you? open world pvp and a crafting system? Not having "gates" as you call it? If that is the case SWG is a sandbox game more so than all those others you mentioned.
{Mod Edit}
You are totally right I am a nerd *rolls eyes*
OH and awesome using the Subscription Defense when talking about WoW LOL! that was very original.
I'm sorry if you like limited content, limited customization and progression and a totally Static world.
I sure don't and thankfully other players agree with me. Enough that Devs are making new sandbox games, sure they may be niche but thats fine. Give me a tight knit community not filled with pre-teens that enjoy crafting, exploring and cutting eachother to bits and im good.
Have fun with that 11.5 million playerbase you got there, even though you dont even play with more then 3-5k due to server caps. I'll have my fun in Eve with almost 60k players in a single world thats actually a living breathing evolving Universe.
peace
Edit: Oh and I don't play DF sorry, Eves Xpac released to close to DFs release and now im back exploring a actual world simulation.
{Mod Edit}I also love the downplaying of those "million" of players also. Elvis was the King of Rock and Roll because he was the first MILLION seller RnR'ller. The Beatles were the King of the 60 because of the first million new POP sales.
As it happens to be, Wow is the King of MMORPG's (and commercially wise even to ALL video games of the last 30 years) to "sell" such insane amounts of long term subscriptions. (5.000.000 * 6 bimonthly subcards = the equivalent of 30.000.000 copies each year in the western world ALONE).
So leave Brittney Spears out of the discussion, she is just another pop artist, she can't be compared in her industry with the gigantic sales AND subs hit Wow is.
---
We understand you don't like Wow. But this "grown up" stuff and "I play the BIG mmorpg's" is so childish.
So be prepared to be frustrated even the following decades as Elvis is already more than 30 years dead and he is still considered to be the King of the Rock and roll "genre".
Going off with my self crafted helicopter and chopper and ... I didn't have to do one quest to craft it.
Vrrroom... Whatch out for your feet in EVE ... (oh I didn't see them...).
There are as many definitions of an mmorpg as there are players. Sandbox is just one of those 20.000.000 definitions.
Is the vanity of the WoW fanboy such that they can't accept another game being popular on its own merits? Who cares if EVE Online is popular? Who cares if they don't have helicopters or avatars? People don't play EVE for those. CCP isn't even after the WoW market -- and now you're blaming them for that? After saying how all the other MMO's in the past year have come short because they paled in comparison to WoW?
EVE doesn't try to be WoW.
Darkfall doesn't try to be WoW.
Pirates of the Burning Sea doesn't try to be WoW.
And that's just the three games that come to mind, either because they have completely different settings (one scifi, the other historical), or because they have mechanics that WoW would never even consider doing (full-loot PvP, meaningful RvR). Would you want to see them gone, all to the last one, because they offer an alternative to WoW? If they fail, let it be on their own flaws, not because they're not World of Warcraft. It's bad enough that it is what WAR tried to do and fell flat on its face.
As for Britney Spears, the comparison holds. Something being popular doesn't make it good -- as you've been told time and again.
If I want to blame EVE for anything, it's their general idea that scamming and extortion are fine. Having no avatars is way, way down my list. (And if you want to know, guess what they've been saying about Pirates of the Burning Sea? That avatars should have been left out of the game, as it was originally intended, to focus on ship combat. Probably would flunk the Zorndorf Board of Review, but meh.)
I don't wanna blame EVE for anything. All I said was that there are 20.000.000 different definitions of an mmorpg.
Apparently a moderator has gone snip-snip over most of what you had written about EVE. I seem to recall something about "spreadsheets", but I'm not sure why that was cut. To each his own, really. If EVE has a functional economy, all the better -- I wasn't really impressed with what I saw of the economy in WoW.
And "sandbox" is just one of those 20.000.000 definitions. Everyone makes one up. THAT IS the TOPIC dude.
I agree that there are many variations on what people would consider a sandbox. But by my standards, WoW ain't one of those.
So stating that one mmorpg is for the "real" or "bigger" or "harder" mmorpg player or "sandboxer" is false.
I for one never argued this. I perfectly agree with you on this. I find that whole e-peen measurement thing repulsive and laughable, and it's what makes those sandbox games pretty much unplayable if you seek something else. Latest case in point: Darkfall. With all that has been recorded about that game, why would I want to even try it?
I use the examples above to show it to you. A crafted helicopter in "themeparc" Wow and a feetlless ever sitting avatar in "sandbox" Eve.
But you only want to hate Zorndorf without reading his posts. So better read the lines I type next time.
I'm too busy reading between them, where the fun is.
PS The Britney Spears analogy doesn't make sense because she represents no u n i q u e "King" or "Queen" status in pop music, like Elvis or The Beatles were. In YOUR analogy BS is something in the order of a weak Vanguard commercial success. Good for some sold units, but no commercial "trend" success in the pop scene in the long run. And of course Wow is the King in its branche. King status is more than just a quick "popular" object. It means SINGLE most succesful in the complete branche. There is only one King.
I disagree with this on two counts.
1) Assuming there is a "King" just creates a pecking order among things. If Elvis is "King", what does that make Jerry Lee Lewis? Johnny Cash? Any other rock or R&B artist? Losers? Does that say they are inferior artistically? Which brings in Number 2,
2) The pecking order it creates is purely commercial. Quality can't readily be measured (and the standards would vary anyway), but record sales can. It does not justify, however, that whoever ends up on top is necessarily better. Say that WoW is commercial king of MMO's and I don't think you will find anyone willing to dispute that -- because you'd be clearly setting out which criterion you're using to reach that conclusion.
You might say that #2 is the only criterion that matters for people publishing games, and both my realism and cynicism agree with you on this. But here's the thing -- we're not game publishers. I'm not even a stockholder. I am a player, and nothing more. Talk to me of commercial success and I'm thinking, none of this goes into my pocket, why should I care? As long as the game is popular enough for the plug not to be pulled on it, financial considerations don't matter per se. And ironically, they might have a twisted influence on other games being made, and that would go in the list of arguments against WoW instead of for it. I think of Wal-Mart as an apt comparison point here: If it is successful at the expense of everything else, is that really a good thing?
But the Britney analogy is valid, because (1) she is popular and (2) has been lambasted by critics. What the Britney example demonstrates is that Popular does not equal Good, nor does it equal Bad. That Elvis had 50,000,000 fans doesn't necessarily make them right, nor does it necessarily make them wrong. Doesn't matter who you pick, Celine Dion or Madonna would do equally well, I'm sure. If you want, make the comparison with Budweiser, the King of Beers (remark also how royalty status is easily picked up by marketing departments). Popularity is meaningless outside of commercial considerations, which isn't what we as gamers need to worry about.
Poor little Z and the WoW action squad.
Following me into threads linking old quotes of me talking about my son(a little 10 year old) enjoying WoW?
That's kind of scarey, A little obsessed? boarderline harassment?
You take this stuff too seriously Z.
You should be having fun on these boards, not attacking people that have a negative opinion on a videogame lol.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Yeah, it's all part of Z's charm.
Until the moderators of this site bother checking out what he writes and decide to act accordingly, just go through his back posts and quote him back. The journey is as pleasant as a guided tour down a septic tank.
Yeah, it's all part of Z's charm.
Until the moderators of this site bother checking out what he writes and decide to act accordingly, just go through his back posts and quote him back. The journey is as pleasant as a guided tour down a septic tank.
I consider quoting old threads and following a specific poster around to discredit them harassment.
I personally wouldnt do that.
While I may have a more unpleasent view on most themepark games in the genre, the way he and others act in my threads is quite shocking. Like children fighting over which superhero would win in a fight, then having that verbal fight lead into momma jokes and ultimately leading to a school yard brawl.
It's childish behavior tbh. I'm above that.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Yeah, it's all part of Z's charm.
Until the moderators of this site bother checking out what he writes and decide to act accordingly, just go through his back posts and quote him back. The journey is as pleasant as a guided tour down a septic tank.
I consider quoting old threads and following a specific poster around to discredit them harassment.
I personally wouldnt do that.
While I may have a more unpleasent view on most sandbox games in the genre, the way he and others act in my threads is quite shocking. Like children fighting over which superhero would win in a fight, then having that verbal fight lead into momma jokes and ultimately leading to a school yard brawl.
It's childish behavior tbh. I'm above that.
I tend to be of the view that if the purpose is to show inconsistencies or double standards on the part of someone, it is perfectly acceptable. I just call it research material. But you're right, it is a very fine line indeed between building up an argument with evidence and cyberstalking. I myself would want nothing to do with the latter.
I'm just sorry he dragged your kid into this. But things are weird in that WoW forum, as though the climate of intimidation were so strong that nobody would dare denounce how outrageously some of those posters behave.
The sandbox is a dynamic virtual world.
The ideal sandbox would be one from the movie "The Matrix".
Most games have sandbox options where there is a main storyline, but you can ignore it all together.
With sandbox games you don't feel shoehorned into a specific path in playing.
Some examples of games with sandbox options are: Eldar Scrolls IV, Grand Theft Auto and Mabinogi.
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/RZetlin
I totally forgot about Mabinogi.
I mostly look over it since its F2p.
might check that out thanks for reminding me
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
I first played EVE back in 2003 for about four months. In 2008 I went back and played it for two months.
There were significant changes between how the game played in 2003 and 2008. My 2008 character was much richer and powerful after two months of gameplay then my 2003 was after twice that long. In 2003 I also played many more hours per day then I can now. My 2008 character had access to tools and progression paths that were not available in 2003. As such I could skip a lot of 'start-up' content and concentrate on other areas I now had reasonable access to. I could still do things the way I did back in 2003 but there was no real reason to since superior alternatives were available and I did not really like that content to begin with. It was a necessary part of the progression path in 2003 but since then the game had evolved and it was now an obsolete way of doing things.
I first played EVE back in 2003 for about four months. In 2008 I went back and played it for two months.
There were significant changes between how the game played in 2003 and 2008. My 2008 character was much richer and powerful after two months of gameplay then my 2003 was after twice that long. In 2003 I also played many more hours per day then I can now. My 2008 character had access to tools and progression paths that were not available in 2003. As such I could skip a lot of 'start-up' content and concentrate on other areas I now had reasonable access to. I could still do things the way I did back in 2003 but there was no real reason to since superior alternatives were available and I did not really like that content to begin with. It was a necessary part of the progression path in 2003 but since then the game had evolved and it was now an obsolete way of doing things.
Care to give me some example of these "Start-up" content your talking about?
I would also like to know what content you felt there was no reason to do anymore?
Also please give me an example of Obsolete features/content in Eve.
I find this post interesting and news to me since i've been playing eve almost 4 years and nothing is obsolete.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing