Originally posted by Litigator_AB I'll agree that a free month to old accounts would be a positive move. But like most cash strapped companies they will be too scared to do something that drastic. I'm sure they'll wimp out and give a free week or 10 days to old subscribers.
Please god no free month! 10-15 days max is good enough. You know darn well if you plan to resub in that time frame. What do you need a month for?
Well if you're familiar with AoC you'll know that many of the problems with AoC that caused people to leave the game don't become obvious until you hit 40+. I just used up a buddy key to play for 7 days, got to level 20 and frankly didn't see much different than before.
Also, based on how the launch went and how FC treated its customers, vets are owed, especially if FC wants them back.
Finally, why 'Please god no'? I understand you don't think people need it, but why would you be so against it?
Finally, why 'Please god no'? I understand you don't think people need it, but why would you be so against it?
Scroll up, I posted why a few posts back. Short story... I don't want free accounts that have no intention to resub or evaluate the game, but to log in and spam global chat and cause all kinds of trouble.
Finally, why 'Please god no'? I understand you don't think people need it, but why would you be so against it?
Scroll up, I posted why a few posts back. Short story... I don't want free accounts that have no intention to resub or evaluate the game, but to log in and spam global chat and cause all kinds of trouble.
Well I don't know if it'd be the same for returning vet accounts on trials, but right now on a buddy key you can't access regional or ooc chat or even send tells.
Still, seems if AoC is going to have a chance it needs people to come back (and of course like the game as well) and for a game like AoC that is so polished at the beginning it really could use a month to get a feel for it and find out if the reasons you quit before are valid or not.
Can't vote because your try again option didn't mention if it was free. No way I give FC money before I see the goods.
Problem with relaunching AoC anyway is that the game dynamic was geared towards attracting large guilds to join as groups and drive the game's core dynamics of pvp. Well a lot of those guilds tried it already and left. I don't see those guilds coming back en masse to try it again. Which means AoC will have a much longer cycle of getting a strong player base back into the game (IF the game is even any good in the future) to build up large strong guilds. And that long cycle time would be a heavy strain on a game that many see as failed already.
Yes I'd give AoC another chance if they fixed all the previous problems with the game and redesign some features of the game. All games deserve a second glance. I think the instanced story mode of AoC is pretty neat. Altho the pvp system sucked hardcore.
Yes I'd give AoC another chance if they fixed all the previous problems with the game and redesign some features of the game. All games deserve a second glance. I think the instanced story mode of AoC is pretty neat. Altho the pvp system sucked hardcore.
You can say that again. I've always said AoC is a pve game. Everyone who says AoC is a pvp game don't know anything about pvp.
I know many pvp guilds who waited for AoC for MONTHS only to quit during the first 3 months. This one guild was formed over a YEAR before launch and everyone was so hyped up. When they finally saw AoC the guild died in a matter of days
And if that's the case they would also benefit from a welcom back trial period, as if they quit during the first 3 months they can't really say they know how the game is today.
At the very least potential returning players would benefit of having some free time to try the game in a much better 8allegedly) state than when they got their free initial month.
Win situation for everyone, dunno what's the fuzz against it.
Win situation for everyone, dunno what's the fuzz against it.
Hey I have no problem with people using the free trial and trying the game. That is a good thing.
But I DO have a problem with kids using their hard earned money to resubscribe to Age of Conan after they read all these lies on these forums. The game has improved but it's basically still the same game.
IF YOU HATED AGE OF CONAN AT LAUNCH, YOU WILL HATE IT TODAY JUST AS MUCH.
IF YOU HATED BUGS IN AGE OF CONAN, YOU MIGHT LIKE IT TODAY (at least until you get to higher levels and see the "endgame")
Oh ..well..good you're looking out for the kids. As long as it's for the kids. Too bad the average mmo player is not what most would consider a "kid". I believe average age is 30. This one link...and I'm sure you can find more yourself..(but actual investigation might counter most of the negative speak in the forums...so it is no wonder that actual facts fail to accompany the posts).....states that it is 26 years of age and that actually, only 25% are kids. Since ..most of the AoC haters seem to think no one plays the game..then 1/4 of the "negligible" population isn't really that many "kids" spending their lunch money on this "fail" game. So your noble intentions are for naught. Thanks
So far these "kids" (in reality most of them that have posted are adults) that have posted here and in the official forums have found the game in a much better state and are enjoying the game, some others have not.
For you the game still is not good, all fine and dandy, take a look, thread by thread, for the ones that have returned and you'll see a diferent trend, some people that disliked the lack of content now find it much better, some people that found the instanced encounters boring find them revamped, People that disliked the one shots produced from gems find it changed, it's not just bug fixes what has been added, class balance have been tweaked 8and still requires more tweaking) itemization has been improved (still needs a lot more work), most left before any changes to the Pvp system were implemented, before raids worked, before sieges were actually doable.
You say you have a problems with others making decisions for themselves and chosing to spend their time and money in resubbing, yet most of the ressubing 8allegedly) opinions say it's worth the sub now.
you call the (lies) that misguide people bakc into the game, but it would be as easy to call lies the opinions and posts of those (that are minory here and in the official forums) that say it is still not good. On top of it a lot of the bashing comes form people that say they haven't played in months.
let people decide, give your opinion, but don't try to impose it as the absolute truth, "if people didin't like AoC at launch..." you don't have a real idea of what they might think of it right now, as they are not you.
"IF YOU HATED AGE OF CONAN AT LAUNCH, YOU WILL HATE IT TODAY JUST AS MUCH."
IF YOU HATED BUGS IN AGE OF CONAN, YOU MIGHT LIKE IT TODAY (at least until you get to higher levels and see the "endgame")"
this kind of statements demerit any change of taking your opinion as unbiased or objective, just as much as "AoC is now the best possible game ever and it's flawless" would be if not more.
The only reason why I left aoc was for the lack of content 55+. There was nothing for me to do except grind, and that was not fun at all. Yes, they did nerf a few things that pissed me off and there where some bugs but it was the lack of content that killed it in the end for me. I would try a free trial but I hope that they have addressed all the issues before sending out the invites for this free trial. I still have the game installed, and I hope this trial shows me that I don't need to finaly delete the game from my computer. Only time and a free trial will tell if they can truly make the game into something that's worth playing.
Just as a reinder, in case you don't know, you can patch the game without an account, this would save you from having to dedicate time into one long patching process, and patching before activating any trial (or welcome back trial for old accounts) would allow you to use the full trial period instead or losing patching time.
The only reason why I left aoc was for the lack of content 55+. There was nothing for me to do except grind, and that was not fun at all. Yes, they did nerf a few things that pissed me off and there where some bugs but it was the lack of content that killed it in the end for me. I would try a free trial but I hope that they have addressed all the issues before sending out the invites for this free trial. I still have the game installed, and I hope this trial shows me that I don't need to finaly delete the game from my computer. Only time and a free trial will tell if they can truly make the game into something that's worth playing.
This is the exact same for me. Activate my old account for 30 free days, you can guarentee I'll give it another go with my 57 ass to see some additional content. If there wasn't enough added, that will be that I guess.
The only reason why I left aoc was for the lack of content 55+. There was nothing for me to do except grind, and that was not fun at all. Yes, they did nerf a few things that pissed me off and there where some bugs but it was the lack of content that killed it in the end for me. I would try a free trial but I hope that they have addressed all the issues before sending out the invites for this free trial. I still have the game installed, and I hope this trial shows me that I don't need to finaly delete the game from my computer. Only time and a free trial will tell if they can truly make the game into something that's worth playing.
If you though level 55+ lacked content then wait until you get to level 70+. You need to grind half the xp for each level, maybe more. It's a painful task but somehow you find the energy to do it because you want to reach level 80 and start the endgame.
Then when you finally hit 80 you realize there is no endgame and you quit.
The only reason why I left aoc was for the lack of content 55+. There was nothing for me to do except grind, and that was not fun at all. Yes, they did nerf a few things that pissed me off and there where some bugs but it was the lack of content that killed it in the end for me. I would try a free trial but I hope that they have addressed all the issues before sending out the invites for this free trial. I still have the game installed, and I hope this trial shows me that I don't need to finaly delete the game from my computer. Only time and a free trial will tell if they can truly make the game into something that's worth playing.
If you though level 55+ lacked content then wait until you get to level 70+. You need to grind half the xp for each level, maybe more. It's a painful task but somehow you find the energy to do it because you want to reach level 80 and start the endgame.
Then when you finally hit 80 you realize there is no endgame and you quit.
Timo is it still the same today? I know this was the big issue as well...level 80 being a total letdown. Do you know if anything has been added? Sorry I haven't kept up with that game lately.
Aionix: In my opinion, considering the amount of new quests added, a new entire area for mid levels and many other tweaks the content gaps are not there anymore, i wouldn't say it's the game with the most content out there, but it has much more than at launch and several months after that. losts of the low and mid level areas, specially the instances have received overhauls too.
you should however check the forums for the additions, in order to have a more clear idea, opinions of others are good, but take all of what we said as potentially just a part of the story
Just observing that 75% have voted "Yes", yet the thread contains about 80% bile. Guess some just don't bother to stick their head out on these forums anymore. Sad what the "usual crowd" does to these mmorpg.com forums.
I would say that FC should give a longer time for welcome back "trials" considering people already paid for the game and all, than on the regular trial offers they might do, too.
Timo is it still the same today? I know this was the big issue as well...level 80 being a total letdown. Do you know if anything has been added? Sorry I haven't kept up with that game lately.
They added a new zone Ymir's Pass with much needed lvl 55+ content but lvl 70+ is still mostly grinding in Kheshatta while being constantly ganked by other players.
And like you said lvl 80 is a total letdown. Age of Conan basically ends at level 80 and you have to either reroll or quit.
Originally posted by Timoshenko Age of Conan basically ends at level 80 and you have to either reroll or quit.
Huh? PvE raids to get better armor. Helping your guild finish building your city and sieging for a battlekeep, whilst perhaps trying to get up those PvP levels. Increasing your tradeskills and perhaps getting those insanely fast mounts.
I seriously don't understand how with that you still feel players HAVE to reroll or stop playing
Originally posted by Timoshenko Age of Conan basically ends at level 80 and you have to either reroll or quit.
Huh? PvE raids to get better armor. Helping your guild finish building your city and sieging for a battlekeep, whilst perhaps trying to get up those PvP levels. Increasing your tradeskills and perhaps getting those insanely fast mounts.
I seriously don't understand how with that you still feel players HAVE to reroll or stop playing
haha, to true. I've had no time to just roll another alt. I've got gear to get, just got attuned/keyed. Loads of Sieges/Raids/PvP/Gathering/Skills/did i miss anything?
Timo is it still the same today? I know this was the big issue as well...level 80 being a total letdown. Do you know if anything has been added? Sorry I haven't kept up with that game lately.
They added a new zone Ymir's Pass with much needed lvl 55+ content but lvl 70+ is still mostly grinding in Kheshatta while being constantly ganked by other players.
And like you said lvl 80 is a total letdown. Age of Conan basically ends at level 80 and you have to either reroll or quit.
Added zones and Instances:
Ymirs pass, Cradle of decay,Slaughter House, Xibaluku, Black Ring Citadel Wing 3.
Thats 5 content bumps not just 1.
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Timoshenko
Originally posted by 03cobradude
The only reason why I left aoc was for the lack of content 55+. There was nothing for me to do except grind, and that was not fun at all. Yes, they did nerf a few things that pissed me off and there where some bugs but it was the lack of content that killed it in the end for me. I would try a free trial but I hope that they have addressed all the issues before sending out the invites for this free trial. I still have the game installed, and I hope this trial shows me that I don't need to finaly delete the game from my computer. Only time and a free trial will tell if they can truly make the game into something that's worth playing.
If you though level 55+ lacked content then wait until you get to level 70+. You need to grind half the xp for each level, maybe more. It's a painful task but somehow you find the energy to do it because you want to reach level 80 and start the endgame.
Then when you finally hit 80 you realize there is no endgame and you quit.
I quit Conan this week. I have one level 80 and a couple of lvl 60+.
Yes, I know how pvp rewards work. Yes, in theory there is no incentive to kill lowbies but in reality it happens a lot. You go to Kheshatta with a level 70 character and someone will kill you in 30 sec, that is a fact. Go level up and try it.
Before the pvp patch there was no incentive either but that didn't stop ganking and griefing. Why should it stop now? Yes this patch 3.0 will change things but I'm not talking about the future, I'm talking about now.
You are level 45 or something, You probably haven't even been to Kheshatta. You haven't seen the gankfest. Why do you talk about things you don't know anything about?
Does anyone else find it strange how Pezz is always so well informed about all aspects of AoC? Technical, financial, everything. Yet he claims to be be a new player who has played for only 3 weeks. I guess he has done a lot of research or something..
Hey Timo, I remember when you posted that back in October, so you only played from July to October? Because you made it clear that week you quit. Then pretty much 4 months you re-appear saying the same stuff?
That would mean that you never tried Ymirs Pass, nor any patch including that one or thereafter. Nor there at launch.
Remember in that thread and those at the time you were putting people down and telling them you were talking about the game then?
It seems you contradict yourself many times in this thread.
Well 5 months nearly have gone past. Still informed? It doesn't look like it to me.
Oblivious to changes - yep, looks like it. Maybe you decided that you just don't want to hear about the changes as you are not accepting they happened. Or maybe you don't like the poll results. Whatever the case they speak for themselves..
Quite a few changes have happened, people are moving from Kesh to the Border Kingdoms (all 3) for the PvP resources and drops now. Or they are trying out all the extra endgame content that has been put in, the improved sieges and crafting too.
Things are pretty good in flowing to level 80 now and thereafter. Patch 1.05 soon to hit test server will have Tarantia Commons, whole high level zone with dungeons too. Not to mention the whole reitemization project which has been in the works behind the scenes since October 2008.
Comments
Please god no free month! 10-15 days max is good enough. You know darn well if you plan to resub in that time frame. What do you need a month for?
Well if you're familiar with AoC you'll know that many of the problems with AoC that caused people to leave the game don't become obvious until you hit 40+. I just used up a buddy key to play for 7 days, got to level 20 and frankly didn't see much different than before.
Also, based on how the launch went and how FC treated its customers, vets are owed, especially if FC wants them back.
Finally, why 'Please god no'? I understand you don't think people need it, but why would you be so against it?
Scroll up, I posted why a few posts back. Short story... I don't want free accounts that have no intention to resub or evaluate the game, but to log in and spam global chat and cause all kinds of trouble.
.. .... .- - . - .-. --- .-.. .-.. ... .-- .... --- .-. . .--. --- .-. - .-.-.-
--------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
Scroll up, I posted why a few posts back. Short story... I don't want free accounts that have no intention to resub or evaluate the game, but to log in and spam global chat and cause all kinds of trouble.
Well I don't know if it'd be the same for returning vet accounts on trials, but right now on a buddy key you can't access regional or ooc chat or even send tells.
Still, seems if AoC is going to have a chance it needs people to come back (and of course like the game as well) and for a game like AoC that is so polished at the beginning it really could use a month to get a feel for it and find out if the reasons you quit before are valid or not.
Man, read the Poll question before you post.....
Yes I'd give AoC another chance if they fixed all the previous problems with the game and redesign some features of the game. All games deserve a second glance. I think the instanced story mode of AoC is pretty neat. Altho the pvp system sucked hardcore.
You can say that again. I've always said AoC is a pve game. Everyone who says AoC is a pvp game don't know anything about pvp.
I know many pvp guilds who waited for AoC for MONTHS only to quit during the first 3 months. This one guild was formed over a YEAR before launch and everyone was so hyped up. When they finally saw AoC the guild died in a matter of days
And if that's the case they would also benefit from a welcom back trial period, as if they quit during the first 3 months they can't really say they know how the game is today.
At the very least potential returning players would benefit of having some free time to try the game in a much better 8allegedly) state than when they got their free initial month.
Win situation for everyone, dunno what's the fuzz against it.
Hey I have no problem with people using the free trial and trying the game. That is a good thing.
But I DO have a problem with kids using their hard earned money to resubscribe to Age of Conan after they read all these lies on these forums. The game has improved but it's basically still the same game.
IF YOU HATED AGE OF CONAN AT LAUNCH, YOU WILL HATE IT TODAY JUST AS MUCH.
IF YOU HATED BUGS IN AGE OF CONAN, YOU MIGHT LIKE IT TODAY (at least until you get to higher levels and see the "endgame")
Oh ..well..good you're looking out for the kids. As long as it's for the kids. Too bad the average mmo player is not what most would consider a "kid". I believe average age is 30. This one link...and I'm sure you can find more yourself..(but actual investigation might counter most of the negative speak in the forums...so it is no wonder that actual facts fail to accompany the posts).....states that it is 26 years of age and that actually, only 25% are kids. Since ..most of the AoC haters seem to think no one plays the game..then 1/4 of the "negligible" population isn't really that many "kids" spending their lunch money on this "fail" game. So your noble intentions are for naught. Thanks
www.nickyee.com/daedalus/gateway_demographics.html
So far these "kids" (in reality most of them that have posted are adults) that have posted here and in the official forums have found the game in a much better state and are enjoying the game, some others have not.
For you the game still is not good, all fine and dandy, take a look, thread by thread, for the ones that have returned and you'll see a diferent trend, some people that disliked the lack of content now find it much better, some people that found the instanced encounters boring find them revamped, People that disliked the one shots produced from gems find it changed, it's not just bug fixes what has been added, class balance have been tweaked 8and still requires more tweaking) itemization has been improved (still needs a lot more work), most left before any changes to the Pvp system were implemented, before raids worked, before sieges were actually doable.
You say you have a problems with others making decisions for themselves and chosing to spend their time and money in resubbing, yet most of the ressubing 8allegedly) opinions say it's worth the sub now.
you call the (lies) that misguide people bakc into the game, but it would be as easy to call lies the opinions and posts of those (that are minory here and in the official forums) that say it is still not good. On top of it a lot of the bashing comes form people that say they haven't played in months.
let people decide, give your opinion, but don't try to impose it as the absolute truth, "if people didin't like AoC at launch..." you don't have a real idea of what they might think of it right now, as they are not you.
"IF YOU HATED AGE OF CONAN AT LAUNCH, YOU WILL HATE IT TODAY JUST AS MUCH."
IF YOU HATED BUGS IN AGE OF CONAN, YOU MIGHT LIKE IT TODAY (at least until you get to higher levels and see the "endgame")"
this kind of statements demerit any change of taking your opinion as unbiased or objective, just as much as "AoC is now the best possible game ever and it's flawless" would be if not more.
The only reason why I left aoc was for the lack of content 55+. There was nothing for me to do except grind, and that was not fun at all. Yes, they did nerf a few things that pissed me off and there where some bugs but it was the lack of content that killed it in the end for me. I would try a free trial but I hope that they have addressed all the issues before sending out the invites for this free trial. I still have the game installed, and I hope this trial shows me that I don't need to finaly delete the game from my computer. Only time and a free trial will tell if they can truly make the game into something that's worth playing.
Just as a reinder, in case you don't know, you can patch the game without an account, this would save you from having to dedicate time into one long patching process, and patching before activating any trial (or welcome back trial for old accounts) would allow you to use the full trial period instead or losing patching time.
This is the exact same for me. Activate my old account for 30 free days, you can guarentee I'll give it another go with my 57 ass to see some additional content. If there wasn't enough added, that will be that I guess.
If you though level 55+ lacked content then wait until you get to level 70+. You need to grind half the xp for each level, maybe more. It's a painful task but somehow you find the energy to do it because you want to reach level 80 and start the endgame.
Then when you finally hit 80 you realize there is no endgame and you quit.
If you though level 55+ lacked content then wait until you get to level 70+. You need to grind half the xp for each level, maybe more. It's a painful task but somehow you find the energy to do it because you want to reach level 80 and start the endgame.
Then when you finally hit 80 you realize there is no endgame and you quit.
Timo is it still the same today? I know this was the big issue as well...level 80 being a total letdown. Do you know if anything has been added? Sorry I haven't kept up with that game lately.
No, the game just isn't ready for a relaunch anytime soon. Maybe 6-12 months from now I might be interested in coming back.
Aionix: In my opinion, considering the amount of new quests added, a new entire area for mid levels and many other tweaks the content gaps are not there anymore, i wouldn't say it's the game with the most content out there, but it has much more than at launch and several months after that. losts of the low and mid level areas, specially the instances have received overhauls too.
you should however check the forums for the additions, in order to have a more clear idea, opinions of others are good, but take all of what we said as potentially just a part of the story
Thank you Gargola. Well then hell yea if they give me free time I'm going to use it duh!
Just observing that 75% have voted "Yes", yet the thread contains about 80% bile. Guess some just don't bother to stick their head out on these forums anymore. Sad what the "usual crowd" does to these mmorpg.com forums.
I would say that FC should give a longer time for welcome back "trials" considering people already paid for the game and all, than on the regular trial offers they might do, too.
Timo is it still the same today? I know this was the big issue as well...level 80 being a total letdown. Do you know if anything has been added? Sorry I haven't kept up with that game lately.
They added a new zone Ymir's Pass with much needed lvl 55+ content but lvl 70+ is still mostly grinding in Kheshatta while being constantly ganked by other players.
And like you said lvl 80 is a total letdown. Age of Conan basically ends at level 80 and you have to either reroll or quit.
Huh? PvE raids to get better armor. Helping your guild finish building your city and sieging for a battlekeep, whilst perhaps trying to get up those PvP levels. Increasing your tradeskills and perhaps getting those insanely fast mounts.
I seriously don't understand how with that you still feel players HAVE to reroll or stop playing
It is preferable not to travel with a dead man.
Huh? PvE raids to get better armor. Helping your guild finish building your city and sieging for a battlekeep, whilst perhaps trying to get up those PvP levels. Increasing your tradeskills and perhaps getting those insanely fast mounts.
I seriously don't understand how with that you still feel players HAVE to reroll or stop playing
haha, to true. I've had no time to just roll another alt. I've got gear to get, just got attuned/keyed. Loads of Sieges/Raids/PvP/Gathering/Skills/did i miss anything?
Timo is it still the same today? I know this was the big issue as well...level 80 being a total letdown. Do you know if anything has been added? Sorry I haven't kept up with that game lately.
They added a new zone Ymir's Pass with much needed lvl 55+ content but lvl 70+ is still mostly grinding in Kheshatta while being constantly ganked by other players.
And like you said lvl 80 is a total letdown. Age of Conan basically ends at level 80 and you have to either reroll or quit.
Added zones and Instances:
Ymirs pass, Cradle of decay,Slaughter House, Xibaluku, Black Ring Citadel Wing 3.
Thats 5 content bumps not just 1.
If you though level 55+ lacked content then wait until you get to level 70+. You need to grind half the xp for each level, maybe more. It's a painful task but somehow you find the energy to do it because you want to reach level 80 and start the endgame.
Then when you finally hit 80 you realize there is no endgame and you quit.
Originally posted by Timoshenko: October 2008:
I quit Conan this week. I have one level 80 and a couple of lvl 60+.
Yes, I know how pvp rewards work. Yes, in theory there is no incentive to kill lowbies but in reality it happens a lot. You go to Kheshatta with a level 70 character and someone will kill you in 30 sec, that is a fact. Go level up and try it.
Before the pvp patch there was no incentive either but that didn't stop ganking and griefing. Why should it stop now? Yes this patch 3.0 will change things but I'm not talking about the future, I'm talking about now.
You are level 45 or something, You probably haven't even been to Kheshatta. You haven't seen the gankfest. Why do you talk about things you don't know anything about?
Does anyone else find it strange how Pezz is always so well informed about all aspects of AoC? Technical, financial, everything. Yet he claims to be be a new player who has played for only 3 weeks. I guess he has done a lot of research or something..
Hey Timo, I remember when you posted that back in October, so you only played from July to October? Because you made it clear that week you quit. Then pretty much 4 months you re-appear saying the same stuff?
That would mean that you never tried Ymirs Pass, nor any patch including that one or thereafter. Nor there at launch.
Remember in that thread and those at the time you were putting people down and telling them you were talking about the game then?
It seems you contradict yourself many times in this thread.
Well 5 months nearly have gone past. Still informed? It doesn't look like it to me.
Oblivious to changes - yep, looks like it. Maybe you decided that you just don't want to hear about the changes as you are not accepting they happened. Or maybe you don't like the poll results. Whatever the case they speak for themselves..
Quite a few changes have happened, people are moving from Kesh to the Border Kingdoms (all 3) for the PvP resources and drops now. Or they are trying out all the extra endgame content that has been put in, the improved sieges and crafting too.
Things are pretty good in flowing to level 80 now and thereafter. Patch 1.05 soon to hit test server will have Tarantia Commons, whole high level zone with dungeons too. Not to mention the whole reitemization project which has been in the works behind the scenes since October 2008.