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Where loot comes from. Why is this such a hard concept for some?
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
Where does loot come from? I think people that have a hard time with this never played paper and pencil RPG's.
There's another thread, and this was the example:
You kill a dragon, and there's a loot chest. You loot the chest, and there's some armor, like leggings, that fit you. That's supposedly "immersive".
But, you kill a Wolf, and you find the same pants. That's supposedly "immersion breaking" because wolves don't drop pants, and you should only get wolf hide from a wolf.
But really, there's absolutely no difference in these two scenarios. You killed the wolf, and nearby is a deserted caravan that the wolves attacked and ate, and in the caravan you find the armor.
The wolf didn't actually drop armor out of it's butt. It's JUST like the Dragon. The Dragon didn't drop armor out of it's butt either, the stuff was found NEAR the Dragon after you defeated it.
Is this really so complicated? Do you need a line of text to tell you this? You killled the wolf. nearby you see something shiny in hte grass. It is a fallen adventurer the wolves probably ate, and when you investigate you find some armor. Ta Da. You kill the spider, and when you look under the web, you find some jewels. Probably an unlucky soul was wearing them and got stuck in the web, etc. Now are you immersed? Or do you still need wolves to drop only wolf pelts, and dragons to drop only dragon scales?
Comments
Pretty much.
And yes, it would make more sense if you were to, after you kill a dragon/wolf/whatever, actually gain access to some kind of loot, although not necessarily in the form of a direct chest/bag you can loot. And since you've mentioned dragons; in most Lores they're actually treasure hoarders (if not even compulsive hoarders of "shiny things") so they at least have some kind of excuse for all the gold and loot that's usually around them.
I'd have no problem with that if killing the wolf actually spawned a den I had to find and search. But if the leggings show up in a bag right where the wolf died ... then it does reduce immersion for me.
The dragon is a sentient being that activly seeks out and hoards valuables.
You random wolf in the woods does not.
Yes, there may be the occasional pre-set encounter involving wolves attacking a caravan, but that is not your standard random enounter.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Well, everyone is different. If you really need a line of text, or a den to explore, I suppose the devs could add it for you. But wouldnt' you get bored of that after 100 times or so? Wouldn't you complain that it was a waste of time, and couldnt' they just give you a bag to click on, and you get it that' there was a den you explored, and after a while you found the loot?
Would a line of text suffice? "After you kill the wolves, you discover a den. You search the den and find the remains of dead travelers. After poking through the clothes and debris, you find...."
You actually need to see this for it to work, every time?
instant gratification sells. MMO developers know that many people won't mind if a boar drops an epic sword or chest armor. there is something called Marketing. Of course, you can't please everybody, but in my opinion, I won't mind if a boar drops an epic sword bigger than the boar's corpse.
Uh, no. The wolves attacking the caravan is not a pre-set encounter. It happened maybe 5 years ago, maybe not even by THIS particular pack of wolves, but in this area, by some wolves. But, now that' you've killed the wolves in the area, you're able to explore unhindered, where no one else has ventured in quite some time, and find the abanonded caravan.
Or if you have an encounter in a shack in the woods, you find treasure that has nothing to do with the mobs you fight. The treaure was there the whole time, but no one was going to claiim it with giant lizard men roaming the area, etc., etc.
That's the way it always was in D&D paper n pencil games I played, even in the modules. There was some random loot, so you wouldn't just kill a wolf, and immediately get a magic sword. You might find one, you might find nothing.
How about if we disguise it even more? You kill so many Mobs, and then you find treasure because you are adventuring in dangerous seldom explored territory.
So, you kill a bunch of wolves, for example, and then you come across an ancient battle ground. You notice bones, rotted armor, etc, and see a skeletal arm sticking out of the dirt and grass, something gleaming between the bony fingers. You investigate, and it's a magic sword, the gleam is the ruby in the pommel.
No fight, you just randomly find the treasure based on how much fighting you've been doing recently. You explore a cave, a deserted shack, a secret passage way in the dungeon, etc., etc.
or... we could just find treasure for explorations sake too... why is that so hard? ive yet to see it in many games, you're wandering around and stumble upon what looks to be a pile of corpses, digging through them you find a shiny ring! i like that.
i was trying to get at a bit of realism though. as in like think of what you could take from something you just killed. a wolf has its hide and pointy bits (teeth/claws). and if the game has alchemy or something of the sort.. its blood and heart. People usually have clothing/armor, jewelery, money, weapons. etc etc etc
but i like your idea too
Well, everyone is different. If you really need a line of text, or a den to explore, I suppose the devs could add it for you. But wouldnt' you get bored of that after 100 times or so? Wouldn't you complain that it was a waste of time, and couldnt' they just give you a bag to click on, and you get it that' there was a den you explored, and after a while you found the loot?
Would a line of text suffice? "After you kill the wolves, you discover a den. You search the den and find the remains of dead travelers. After poking through the clothes and debris, you find...."
You actually need to see this for it to work, every time?
No, I wouldn't get bored with it. No, I wouldn't complain that it's a waste of time. That sort of complaining is what has lead to mmorpgs being dumbed-down over the years. I'm proud to be "not guilty" on that charge.
I don't want a line of text telling me I just did something interesting when I could actually do the interesting thing myself. Before you ask, yes, I'd find searching for a lair to loot just as interesting as actually killing the creature.
I always translated loot to mean that you gut whatever you have killed and what was in the contains of its stomach was the remains of its last meal. Dragons have bigger guts and so drop more.
At first I thought this thread might be more patronising saying that loot comes from 01010111's on a HDD from a server somewhere, but I wouldn't be that churlish.
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/MMORPG
WIth something like dragons i reckon they shouldnt drop chests or anything. You should be able to loot the body it self and find some sort of a key which then opens like a secret doorway in that dungeon or opens a chest.
For something like wolves or boars they should just drop realistic stuff if found in the wild. But you can find something like attacked caravans or caves or dead people who can have loot on them which u only get access to when u kill the wolf or what not. Something like Age of Empires 3 animals guarding the treasures.
To me, I think loot should come from the creature you slayed. If you kill a giant rat, it shouldnt have a long sword and 20 silver, LOLOL.. I mean wtf. Right?
Like if a goblin is attacking you w/ a short sword you should be able to loot it, thats if that weapon did nont break in battle. and exct..
Game on
I've never been much of an immersion whore, but I never really liked the concept of random loot.
Personally, I think that the only loot that you should get from a wolf are things like pelt, teeth, claws, and meat. Parts that are actually useful in some sense or other. Armour and weapons should come from craftsmen; the whole concept of "epic drops" is absurd; and why are ancient magical weapons always so much more powerful than contemporary ones?
One would imagine that the skills of craftsmen would advance in a thousand years, not devolve.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Yeah, like oblivion did it. when you kill a wolf you get skin and teeth i do beleave .
I think this explains it pretty well. From the comic strip "The Noob"
I think you need more than a line of text to understand your nonsense. One thing is finding items in a skeleton in a web and another a piece of armor and coins inside the stomach of every wolf and rat you kill. A wolf might swallow accidentally a coin from one corpse but that should be a 1 in one hundred wolves.
And comparing that to a dragon keeping a chest is completely absurd.
LMAO, no doubt. this is actualy a good post.
As a old PnP RPGer, I wholeheartly agree with the OP. Full random loot table makes any game much more fun. And for me, its more immersive to imagine me tracking the wolf to its den and finding a half eaten corpse clinging to a magical sword, than skinning every wolf, bear, boar and rat for its teeth, skin, ears, tails etc.
Another point is; with loot systems like lotro, wow, vanguard etc, there is 0% chance of finding something cool on creatures. With a random loot system like, AC1 & 2, you atleast had a % to find something cool, a small chance, but it could atleast happen.
Not sure what you mean here. WoW has always had a World Drop chance so a random creature out in the world always can drop an epic item or a rare recipe.
Not sure what you mean here. WoW has always had a World Drop chance so a random creature out in the world always can drop an epic item or a rare recipe.
I remember finding "Intense" weapons and armor of random drops from common mobs in RF online... but alas that was the Codemasters version years ago (pre-Item Shop days of RF today).
The OP brings up a very good point.
Sure finding a giant rat that carries a sword may be odd for you and me. But it's not odd for a guy with a blue and red bar floating over his head.
And it's definitely not odd for some guy who has died 30 times today but for some reason is still walking around.
Or for the guy who is just a physically capable when he is just about to die as he is with full health.
Good point. Personally, I've played WAY too many RPGs and MMOs (Tabletop and computer) over the last 25 years to bother about minutiae like that any more. See game - play game. It's called "Suspension of Disbelief". Some people should try it.
Well, everyone is different. If you really need a line of text, or a den to explore, I suppose the devs could add it for you. But wouldnt' you get bored of that after 100 times or so? Wouldn't you complain that it was a waste of time, and couldnt' they just give you a bag to click on, and you get it that' there was a den you explored, and after a while you found the loot?
Would a line of text suffice? "After you kill the wolves, you discover a den. You search the den and find the remains of dead travelers. After poking through the clothes and debris, you find...."
You actually need to see this for it to work, every time?
No, I wouldn't get bored with it. No, I wouldn't complain that it's a waste of time. That sort of complaining is what has lead to mmorpgs being dumbed-down over the years. I'm proud to be "not guilty" on that charge.
I don't want a line of text telling me I just did something interesting when I could actually do the interesting thing myself. Before you ask, yes, I'd find searching for a lair to loot just as interesting as actually killing the creature.
As long as the lighting isn't so horrible you can't make out anything, and as long as the environment was as interactive as it appeared to be (so you didn't have to look for the magical movable stone among a bunch of other normal stones), then I agree with this 100%.
Well, if you are using PnP RPG, then think of this: You DO NOT SEE the world around you, so you can imagine anything up based on what the DM says so. But in MMORPG, you DO SEE the world around you, hence a better way to keep the immersion in is to build it so that you can SEE where the loot is coming from...
That's the difference here.
And I have no problem with wolf skin/dragon scale as loot as long as they can be sell off or made into something like a leather armor/dragon scale armor.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
How about this? A wolf only drops skin, teeth, bone, and whatever else a wolf would normally have. A dragon does the same thing. Then, a CRAFTER makes an item from these drops? Then you don't have to make up some stupid story about how every god damn wolf in this pack of 500 that are all sitting in the middle of nowhere doing nothing happened to individually raid a caravan just before you got there.
For weapon and armor drops, well they should only drop from NPC's that are actually wearing armor and using weapons. Is that such a hard concept?
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.