Why should i stop complaining? Thats what this forum is for. Oh I don't know, maybe you could have joined one of the other so many threads about this subject instead of starting a new one to pollute the forums. And another thing: if You dont like my complaining change the thread mate, no one is forcing You to read through it, and complain about my complaining. See the above. Point is: i think not having a neutral (free to choose quests from either side if You prefer) characters is not only a lack of innovation its a simplification that SW and not Bioware is known for. And dont say about money, please. Their yearly napkin budget could probably buy You a nice car. Here is what I'm saying. Neutral (being human as you put it) plays no major roll in most Star Wars games. Even then this is back in the old republic days not what we seen in movies. Maybe in this day and age people didn't have a choice. The SITH were much more fierce then the imperials. They were brutal and dealt with things in a merciless manner. In KOTOR II Kreia said even before that time they were masters of the force and nobody could imagine the power they held. Now look at Star Wars ep. 1-6 and they are hardly that discription. Basically you can take this and see that they have slowly lost touch with the powers they held. So by bring it back to TOR maybe they are far more powerfull then in the movies and neutrals were forced (or so scared) they had to pick a side. Its obvious the SITH are powerfull, look at timeline 1. They took half the galaxy in a short amount of time and forced a cease fire without second thought. People often fight for what they belive in, not many sit idle and watch everything roll down hill. It is human nature to get involved. So if you are saying being neutral and working for both sides is possible, think again. The Sith would more then likely dispose of you for any involvment with the Republic and the Republic would cast you out for dealing with the Sith. This is about th reason I see fit. I've finished both KOTORs with the GvE scale in the middle. I chose some of the more morally questionable options and also noble ones, depending on the situation and my mood, You know, that's called being human - or neutral in Your language. And I played through three times with Red, Blue, Grey meters. Either way it came out to making the ultimate decision. To save or destroy. The grey area is only for so long. This is another reason it is obsolete in TOR. I believe storywise Bioware will give its best, as i've enjoyed each and every title they released. I agree. And lets hope they put the same time and effort they did into KOTOR with TOR. Just respect their choices for the time being. If it turns out all that bad then you attack. Attacking the game this early for these choices is rather silly considering you have no idea how the game play is and if neutral could fit into this world.
funny You think i'm attacking the game...
I'm confident that BioWare devs are the only thing standing in Georgies' minions way to assure the quality of the game and not a kiddie Clone Wars episodes cartoon nonsensicals.
funny You think i'm attacking the game... I'm confident that BioWare devs are the only thing standing in Georgies' minions way to assure the quality of the game and not a kiddie Clone Wars episodes cartoon nonsensicals.
Sorry poor choice of words on my part. All I'm saying is give it more time, wait for the outcome and see what it's missing and how neutral could have played a roll.
Why should i stop complaining? Thats what this forum is for. And another thing: if You dont like my complaining change the thread mate, no one is forcing You to read through it, and complain about my complaining. Point is: i think not having a neutral (free to choose quests from either side if You prefer) characters is not only a lack of innovation its a simplification that SW and not Bioware is known for. And dont say about money, please. Their yearly napkin budget could probably buy You a nice car. I've finished both KOTORs with the GvE scale in the middle. I chose some of the more morally questionable options and also noble ones, depending on the situation and my mood, You know, that's called being human - or neutral in Your language. I believe storywise Bioware will give its best, as i've enjoyed each and every title they released.
I see where you are coming from, but the concept of a neutral party simply cannot work in this type of game. Bioware loves to put tons of choices throughout their games. These choices have direct control over the path your character takes throughout the game. Some people will choose to make "good" choices, while some will make "evil" choices, but in the end your character's overall alignment will be one more than the other.
You can choose to be somewhere in the middle by sometimes making good choices and sometimes making bad ones, but there is always some point in the game (at least in previous Bioware titles) where your true alignment is chosen. Do you save the good guys and bring peace to the universe or do you choose the dark side and bring about an era of oppression? That is the choice that they gave us in KOTOR. Both choices had very real consequences in the game world and changed the outcome of the story significantly.
The thing you have to remember here is that this game is about the STORY they are trying to tell. There will likely be no story for a neutral party because that faction has nothing interesting to contribute to the greater galactic struggle. Bioware is not going to spend the tremendous time and energy to flesh out a neutral faction because it just isn't relevant in the grand scheme of things... and even if it was, the very design of this game would FORCE certain choices along the way. There is no sandbox element to this type of game specifically because of the choices made along the way.
Believe me, I very much appreciate the type of sandbox environment that you find ideal and I have enjoyed every game that has attempted this thus far. Unfortunately, this game is just not going to provide that for you no matter how much you want it to. However, if you appreciate the type of games Bioware makes and the energy and polish they put into their products, I think you will be very happy with the end result of their efforts. But don't waste your time wishing for something that is not going to happen... it will only disappoint you in the end.
I mean most of the people who watched the original trilogy were teenagers back then. World was simple: good vs evil, nothing in between, everything's clear. Now, that generation is in it's 40s, 30s and that view of the world seems too naive. That's why Bioware's devs quote: "not a Star Wars Neutral guy game" really annoyed me. I want to be neutral. I want to be able to work for the Siths or Republic like a pro Bounty Hunter. That's what pros do, they work for the highest bidder. The same with being a smuggler. Why not transport supplies for a Sith? They pay, i dont kill anyone everyone wins. Got to feed the family hive, right? Of course this game is shaping up to be based on an good ole' WoW model. Sith vs Republic. Lame. After SW KOTOR i was expecting the best from BioWare.
That would be a very difficult concept to develop interesting none the less but in reality it wont happen not just because it would be hard to make but because it would be hard to incorporate into star wars lore sure neutral characters existed but not enough for a whole faction.
What the Bioware defenders are missing is the difference between an MMO and a stand alone solo RPG. It is a whole lot easier to have seperate and meaningful story arcs in a solo game, just as it is easier to have meaningful "moral" decisions for a character who is in the center of his own story. The problem, and what some of us are worried greatly about, is what happens when you try and translate that to an MMO format.
Because you can easily either end up with a Massively-Single Player RPG where you are constantly immersed in "heroic" instances and really interacting with the masses much; or you end up old SOE style "choices" which you and 99999 other people do.
Example: if it is possible to start as a "Jedi" and go "Sith", there will likely be a template/pathway published within a few weeks of launch that tells you "go here, kill guy X", run quest Z five times and poof! you're a "Sith". Which would hardly make you a "unique" element now would it?
Bioware has written some great stuff - but pulling off anything but the cookie cutter approach in an MMO while avoiding the constant instancing/solo storyline will be really hard...and from what they have said I am not sure they are even trying.
I know there will be a good/evil meter like in KotOR, but I don't see why a non-jedi...ala-Bounty Hunters can't be good and work for the Sith Empire. Bounty Hunters are generally neutral with bad attitdues that can be mistaken for being evil.
Actually, jedi can be evil and still be an aliiance loyalist, half the jedi in KotOR turned out to be evil but stil fought for the republic against the Mandalorians. Good vs. Evil just adds flavor the gameplay, nothing about it is too childish IMO.
I Reject your Reality and Substitute it with My Own!
I am so tired of people posting about this game who clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Before any of you make baseless claims about the way this game will be, please do us all a favor and PLAY SOME BIOWARE GAMES. Most importantly, play KOTOR and you will have a very good idea of where they are coming from creatively. Those of you who have not played KOTOR or other Bioware games have NO business spewing your ignorant comments at the community. It is so very clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what a Bioware game is like. I am so sick and tired of hearing people compare this game to WoW, when everything I know about the company and previous titles would indicate that this game will be very different. This game will NOT be WoW in Space... but neither will it be a sandbox. This game is about the war between the light and dark sides of the force, plain and simple. This has been the overarching theme in EVERY Star Wars movie, book, or game. Why any of you would find this surprising is mind-boggling.
So true. Anyone saying this will be another World of Warcraft is just a complete and utter moron. I played KOTOR and it was as close to being WOW as an astronaut is to being a farmer.Just because a game isn't a boring sandbox doesn't mean that it automatically is trying to copy WOW. And criticizing a game before it even hits BETA makes no sense to me. Those are usually the type of people who are never happy with any game and spend time in every gaming forum telling that community why their game sucks.
Interesting posts above... I am still not convinced that SW TOR will cater to the original SW Trilogy generation. Dissapointment of the new trilogy and relentess "Kiddiezation" of SW IP is enough to expect the same from this game. Just look at what's happening to SW right now; the SW Clone wars series: great animation, action non stop, but the plots of the episodes seem to be written by a 10 year old and they make as much sense as that 10 year old on crack... MMORPG that was catering to that original trilogy fans was a pre-NGE SW Galaxies. And that's it. That game rocked, but Sony wanted to chase WoW and destroyed a brilliant concept. And that's when people left it to rot. SW TOR is closely watched by Lucas's minions as it's shaping up to be another (this time thanks to the IP) contender for the WoW crown. They'll make sure what You get is another meaningless PvE action, happy dancing routines, bright colour vomitted all over the place, evil Sith who are mostly mean bullies and not tyranic genocidal maniacs... It will look good, have this "cushy" feeling of alrightness, but it will be just another gear grind kids adventure. It would make me happy to be proven wrong on that...
Considering they aren't doing Clone Wars Online to push Annakin Skywalker down our throats till we puke, I would hope they aren't going for the kiddie crowd. To me, the only way a Star Wars movie would be considered cool by the "masses" again would be for them to go with this era that Bioware are tackling.
After the whiney pod racing kids, Gungan's, and love scenes that would be considered bad in a highschool drama club, the first three movies had to try really hard to suddenly go "Darth Vader style dark" in the last 30 minutes of Episode III. To me Knights of the Republic can go dark right out the gate because they aren't limitied by movie canon or a ratings system on the cartoon network or anything else.
The game can also be dark and mature but still have "cartoony" graphics (See anime?). EQ2 and VG graphics tried to be more realistic and most people couldn't run the game and the half that did still thought that somehow the realism made the people look plastic and unfeeling. WoW had cartoony graphics that could run on older systems and we know how they turned out. I think we are jumping the gun to think that cartoony graphics means "kiddie content".
Another thing is that games haven't seemed to find a way to avoid realism equaling boring graphics. The whole "Too much brown!" thing from EQ2 and VG. Personally if my guy in SWToR has more combat animations, more equipment and weapon choices and that he will rubberband or lag less then I would rather have less pixels and textures.
Comments
funny You think i'm attacking the game...
I'm confident that BioWare devs are the only thing standing in Georgies' minions way to assure the quality of the game and not a kiddie Clone Wars episodes cartoon nonsensicals.
Sorry poor choice of words on my part. All I'm saying is give it more time, wait for the outcome and see what it's missing and how neutral could have played a roll.
I see where you are coming from, but the concept of a neutral party simply cannot work in this type of game. Bioware loves to put tons of choices throughout their games. These choices have direct control over the path your character takes throughout the game. Some people will choose to make "good" choices, while some will make "evil" choices, but in the end your character's overall alignment will be one more than the other.
You can choose to be somewhere in the middle by sometimes making good choices and sometimes making bad ones, but there is always some point in the game (at least in previous Bioware titles) where your true alignment is chosen. Do you save the good guys and bring peace to the universe or do you choose the dark side and bring about an era of oppression? That is the choice that they gave us in KOTOR. Both choices had very real consequences in the game world and changed the outcome of the story significantly.
The thing you have to remember here is that this game is about the STORY they are trying to tell. There will likely be no story for a neutral party because that faction has nothing interesting to contribute to the greater galactic struggle. Bioware is not going to spend the tremendous time and energy to flesh out a neutral faction because it just isn't relevant in the grand scheme of things... and even if it was, the very design of this game would FORCE certain choices along the way. There is no sandbox element to this type of game specifically because of the choices made along the way.
Believe me, I very much appreciate the type of sandbox environment that you find ideal and I have enjoyed every game that has attempted this thus far. Unfortunately, this game is just not going to provide that for you no matter how much you want it to. However, if you appreciate the type of games Bioware makes and the energy and polish they put into their products, I think you will be very happy with the end result of their efforts. But don't waste your time wishing for something that is not going to happen... it will only disappoint you in the end.
That would be a very difficult concept to develop interesting none the less but in reality it wont happen not just because it would be hard to make but because it would be hard to incorporate into star wars lore sure neutral characters existed but not enough for a whole faction.
What the Bioware defenders are missing is the difference between an MMO and a stand alone solo RPG. It is a whole lot easier to have seperate and meaningful story arcs in a solo game, just as it is easier to have meaningful "moral" decisions for a character who is in the center of his own story. The problem, and what some of us are worried greatly about, is what happens when you try and translate that to an MMO format.
Because you can easily either end up with a Massively-Single Player RPG where you are constantly immersed in "heroic" instances and really interacting with the masses much; or you end up old SOE style "choices" which you and 99999 other people do.
Example: if it is possible to start as a "Jedi" and go "Sith", there will likely be a template/pathway published within a few weeks of launch that tells you "go here, kill guy X", run quest Z five times and poof! you're a "Sith". Which would hardly make you a "unique" element now would it?
Bioware has written some great stuff - but pulling off anything but the cookie cutter approach in an MMO while avoiding the constant instancing/solo storyline will be really hard...and from what they have said I am not sure they are even trying.
Bounty Hunters are neutral, they just go to the highest bidder.
True true....the good ones anyways
I Reject your Reality and Substitute it with My Own!
I know there will be a good/evil meter like in KotOR, but I don't see why a non-jedi...ala-Bounty Hunters can't be good and work for the Sith Empire. Bounty Hunters are generally neutral with bad attitdues that can be mistaken for being evil.
Actually, jedi can be evil and still be an aliiance loyalist, half the jedi in KotOR turned out to be evil but stil fought for the republic against the Mandalorians. Good vs. Evil just adds flavor the gameplay, nothing about it is too childish IMO.
I Reject your Reality and Substitute it with My Own!
So true. Anyone saying this will be another World of Warcraft is just a complete and utter moron. I played KOTOR and it was as close to being WOW as an astronaut is to being a farmer.Just because a game isn't a boring sandbox doesn't mean that it automatically is trying to copy WOW. And criticizing a game before it even hits BETA makes no sense to me. Those are usually the type of people who are never happy with any game and spend time in every gaming forum telling that community why their game sucks.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
wait and see
wait and see
good IP
good team
hopefully a decent engine (mass effect anyone)
they have a chance to make something very cool, so I will wait and see.
played:WoW and Eve off and on 5 years
Tried:CoH/V, PoTBS, War, TR, STO, FE
TOR is likely to rock
Many games have graphics that suggest their target audience age is between of 7 and 12 years old.
Considering they aren't doing Clone Wars Online to push Annakin Skywalker down our throats till we puke, I would hope they aren't going for the kiddie crowd. To me, the only way a Star Wars movie would be considered cool by the "masses" again would be for them to go with this era that Bioware are tackling.
After the whiney pod racing kids, Gungan's, and love scenes that would be considered bad in a highschool drama club, the first three movies had to try really hard to suddenly go "Darth Vader style dark" in the last 30 minutes of Episode III. To me Knights of the Republic can go dark right out the gate because they aren't limitied by movie canon or a ratings system on the cartoon network or anything else.
The game can also be dark and mature but still have "cartoony" graphics (See anime?). EQ2 and VG graphics tried to be more realistic and most people couldn't run the game and the half that did still thought that somehow the realism made the people look plastic and unfeeling. WoW had cartoony graphics that could run on older systems and we know how they turned out. I think we are jumping the gun to think that cartoony graphics means "kiddie content".
Another thing is that games haven't seemed to find a way to avoid realism equaling boring graphics. The whole "Too much brown!" thing from EQ2 and VG. Personally if my guy in SWToR has more combat animations, more equipment and weapon choices and that he will rubberband or lag less then I would rather have less pixels and textures.