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I'm done with MMO's until someone makes a decent Virtual World
admriker4
Member Posts: 1,070
I've been playing MMO's (and muds) before them going back 12+ years now. Yet lately I find myself never touching my gaming rig these days. In fact I have not been subscribed to an mmo going on 3 months now, the longest drought I've ever gone.
The reason for the lack of interest, frankly I'm tired of settling for a game missing several features I desire in my gamplay.
for starters, I want a virtual world. I have played linear theme park ride games (even enjoyed some briefly) but they arent for me. Virtual worlds begin with making a home for my avatar. For some reason this key feature to MMO's is being left out of development nowadays. And if it is added, its some lame instance or seperate zone. I want my house in the actual virtual game world for all to see. Player cities will develop (whether actually designed as a game feature or not) with real housing. And from player cities comes a virtual world. Please note, a house isnt just a place to store extra gear or potions.
I want a game NOT 100% focused on combat. Crafting should be a class of its own, not some secondary skill anyone can do. If I choose to become a chef, I cant also be a warlock or bounty hunter. That also means not giving players 5 toons per server, this means no alts to allow players to become totally self-sufficient.
absolutely no level system. Its flawed on so many levels (most of which players arent even aware of). A level based system uses a damage multiplier, briefly what this means is gear and skill are actually rather meaningless. A bad lvl 80 warlock player will 99.99% of the time always kill lower level mobs and vice versa die to a higher lvl mob because of the DM. All gear and skill does is determine how fast you kill or get killed by a mob. Level systems are in essence a big fat illusion
Dont get me wrong, linear games like World of Warcraft or Lord of the Rings can be fun. But they are ultimately just a game you can beat. Once the quests and raids are complete, its game over until the next expansion or patch comes. I'm tired of watching my gear become useless in 2 months and having to start over.
I'm tired of doing quests because I need xp. Whatever happened to doing quests for a nice decorative item to place in your house. How about just to have created a grateful NPC that simply smiles or greets / treats you differently when you walk by because you helped them ? Questing has become all about killing things or delivering things (which usually means killing something along the way) for more XP. And how about some kidden quests, rare spawn quests, quests only available at certain times, that dont have some idiot-proof mark to indicate "hey you a quest is here"
I'm not looking for a Second Life type of game either. I dont want to see currency to credit/gold conversions and no combat system. Im not interested in any fps gankfest like darkfall or a space sim where my avatar is just a ship (eve). And Im not going to play SWG because frankly I dont trust SOE.
The only few virtual world games I see coming are fps so theyre automatically off my radar. fps means physical skills come into play thus negating gear really. You cant kill a much weaker new player even if your rifle is amazing if you cant line up those stupid crosshairs. So for me Fallen Earth and I believe Earthrise are also out. My only hope right now is Star Trek Online but lets face it, cryptic isnt exactly known for making complex virtual world.
So for now, and maybe forever this longtime cowboy has said goodbye to the MMO genre. I've stopped sleuthing for leaks about games in development, Im not even the slightest interested in turning on my gaming rig anymore. Maybe turning 40 has something to do with it but you wont see me in any lines for midnight launches until someone makes something worthwhile.
Comments
Can you tell us which virtual world MMOs you have played, so we can get an idea of what you are looking for in one. The only one that you mentioned was SWG, and that was to say you won't play it.
Here are a few suggestions to get started, though:
EVE Online
Ultima Online
A Tale in the Desert
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
OP, we are looking for the same game. Like you, I have also stopped playing mmo's recently, and like you, I just turned 40. My interest in mmo's for the time being has just dried up.
I will try Fallen Earth, Earthrise, SWTOR, and STO probably, as the first two games do sound interesting, while the latter two games appeal to me because I am a big Star Wars and Star Trek fan. Other than that, a lot of games I was super hyped for that recently flopped has led to my feeling somewhat apathetic about the genre.
But I would definitely play the game you describe. It sounds great. In the meantime, I have put off buying a new computer or upgrading my current rig any further. You don't need a lot of power to read internet forums, blog, or write docs in MS Word.
eve - i just dont like space sims. Ive tried to love that game several times but just cant find any joy in it. Its a very good sandbox game but its just not my cup of tea.
Ultima - too old, 2d graphics no thanks. If I want an old-school thrill I'll play Fallout 2 or Birth of the Federation.
A Tale in the Desert - never tried it but I'm told it has no combat system at all so no thanks
I mention SWG because at launch it had nailed the virtual world simulation down. Now thats no longer the case, its crafting system while still somewhat decent is utterly pointless with a loot-based linear theme park NGE design crushing older code. Besides I won touch a game regardless when I have no guarantee that the development team wont violate the cardinal rule of mmo's and change the core game mechanics.
Basically I want a classic combat rpg system like wow with a player run economy like swg had with total interdependance within the community. This means items decay, raid gear isnt better than crafted gear (instead a player would loot crafting components that require a player-crafter to utilize). This also means you cant allow 7 toons per server or everyone will have crafting / gathering alts to avoid interdependance. And crafting should never ever be a secondary skill everyone auto gets. If you want to be a chef, you either cant be a warlock or a weak one (because you spend those limited skill points in chef rather than warlock)
If people who loved virtual worlds spent as much effort bettering themsleves in the REAL one, their need for the virtual wouldn't be as great. After painting a REAL house, landscaping, decorating, fixing things that are broken, it really puts it all in perspective. Doing all of that to a virtual home, seems so completely pointless and a big waste of time. Same with spending amazing amounts of time acruing virtual wealth. Imagine how much actual usable wealth could be made in the time you spent gathering useless virtual gold? Same with virtual friends, virtual corporations, virtual politics, and building virtual clothes. When you've got the real thing, spending so much time doing it virtually ceases to make all that much sense.
On the contrary, I can't slay a dragon in the real world, wander through a desert and kill giant worms or get in a sword fight without extreme harm coming to myself;) I let games fill that void. I don't need a game to reinvent he same nonsense that goes on at work or in real life on a daily basis=)
those games are on my list as well. I suspect they will be short-term diversions Im settling for but maybe a diamond will appear there !
Seriously, this is wierd, i was in the exact same boat as you, coming from runescape. (You could try runescape actually if you want, its got exactly what your looking for)
But, i have recently found a game that i love, and i think you will. Wurm Online.
You need to try this! Believe me, you need to look it up at the very least, if you have any questions, then post and ill answer
"Virtual World" is a very amorphous term. IMO, Second Life is the closest thing to a virtual world, but you said you don't want that.
The two concrete things I got out of yoru post were you want housing, and you don't want levels.
I don't get the housing thing. Why? I've never, ever wanted a house in an MMORPG. What I enjoy in an MMORPG is grouping to kill Mobs, either in a quest, or just plain old grinding, along with exploration and socializing, and some PvP. None of that is going to happen in my house. Games provide a bank to put my stuff, so I just dont' need a house for anything I can think of.
Housing seems detrimental because of the HUGE amount of space it takes up, especially the kind you want which is non-instanced.
EVERY player in the game has a house. But unlike the characters with disappear when you log off your house is there taking up space, even if you don't log on for months. It leads to large barren tracts of housing that clutter up the place, just so you can decorate once in a while. Seems like a lot of resources for very little gain for an online game to play with other people. Something like the Sims offline seems more appropriate for house decorating.
Levels. Are you say8ing you want a massive first person shooter, but one with houses yhou can decorate? Because you said you don't want the character to get more powerful so that it can defeat lower level mobs easily. That happens whether you use skills or levels, but not with a first person shooter combat system.
I think you will be waiting a long time for that game of yours. It shares many common points with my dream game, but throwing money into such a project is simply a Bad Idea for any sane investor.
Forced interdepedency and no level system already drops the customer base by a large percentage as the paying masses want solo play (masses = ultra casuals) and simple short-term goals (levels). Take away variety in characters by allowing no/few alts, and it drops even more. Quests to obtain fluff as opposed to advancing your character comes off the save developer budget, so you'd have less content, and something else the masses want is for the game to take them by the hand through most of it (so none of those random quests for them). Add a proper at-launch housing system and you're looking at some heavy developer budget; variety in looks, meaningful incorporation in other game systems, dynamic colission, etc.
So a smaller customer group to aim for, and a budget spread on more features then current games... doesn't add up in the money section, I'm afraid. And unless it does, it's likely not going to launch.
At least you didn't add open/forced PvP, heavy death penalties and full looting of player corpses. Some people on these forums think that actually appeals to more than a (not literal) handful of us. ;-)
Actually, if you do have old-school thrills now and then, I would recommend picking up UP instead of Fallout 2 and Birth of the Federation. It'll be both a bit more new and fresh than games you have played before, and it is an MMOG so you might find what you are looking for there. Yes, the graphics are dated, but you sound like someone looking for gameplay, not FarCry graphics.
EVE is the only major game that has a system similar to what you are looking for at this time, though it is not quite as one or the other you are looking for. It is more along the lines that to be a good combater you can't be a good crafter as skill training is Realtime based, and can only train 1 at a time, with each next 'level' taking substantial realtime to complete (you don't actually have to skill up yourself, its a timer). This means to be a good combat person, you can't waste time on crafting and vice versus. SWG had the system before they botched class 'balancing' and then brought it 'inline' with the rest of the genre by addinig levels and such. Orignally you could be a dancer, or a musician that healed mind wounds, a doctor to handle body wounds and med packs, gene crafter to make creatures, engineers to make buildings, differnent engineers to make droids, etc. That is not the way anymore (you also have cookie cutter Jedi, something promised you wouldn't originally).
Major or Current Characters
AC - The Brute lvl 85 macer -HG (retired)
SWG - Lihone Su'alkn Master Ranger/ MCH - Flurry (Retired)
EVE - Sulone - Cruiser Lover (Retired)
LOTRO - Sandric lvl 50 Burg (and others)- Brandywine (Retired)
GW2 - Sandric lvl 80 Thief - Dragonbrand (Retired)
NeverWinter - Sandric lvl 60 Rogue - Dragonshard (Retired)
Archage - Sandric lvl 50 everything - Naima (Active)
Others (Lots) (Retired)
Why are some of you so rude about what the OP said? He stated what HE likes and what HIS opinions are about the genre and you try to refute them as if they're facts. Plus stop recommending games he already said he isn't interested in...read the damn post (edit: I'm not referring to you Capped as you make it clear you've read the post) Oh and the asshat who gave the rhetoric about a REAL virtual world. You sound pompous (p.s. you're on a gaming website posting stuff, why aren't you attending to your own REAL virtual world!?)
Now back to the topic...
I know what you mean. I too would love to play a game like you described (I too have looked at EVE but am put off by playing a spaceship...just not what I'm interested in). Additionally, I understand what you mean about the FPS MMOs like Darkfall, Mortal Online, etc. They are/will be focused on the combat and the other things are/become more backburner (the other aspects of a game that makes it a true "sandbox").
Unfortunately, you are in the minority as far as your preference is concerned so there's definitely a lack of demand from the player base for such games and developers will focus on the playstyle of the majority for the most part. However, I think there is hope because this minority is larger than some probably think and if there's a good game designed such as a pre-CU/pre-NGE SWG type game I think there will be a lot of players willing to check it out and subscribe.
I can't give any recommendations because I don't know of any that exist that are newer games that meet your criteria but I'll definitely be on the lookout as I'm sure you will.
I think you will be waiting a long time for that game of yours. It shares many common points with my dream game, but throwing money into such a project is simply a Bad Idea for any sane investor.
Forced interdepedency and no level system already drops the customer base by a large percentage as the paying masses want solo play (masses = ultra casuals) and simple short-term goals (levels). Take away variety in characters by allowing no/few alts, and it drops even more. Quests to obtain fluff as opposed to advancing your character comes off the save developer budget, so you'd have less content, and something else the masses want is for the game to take them by the hand through most of it (so none of those random quests for them). Add a proper at-launch housing system and you're looking at some heavy developer budget; variety in looks, meaningful incorporation in other game systems, dynamic colission, etc.
So a smaller customer group to aim for, and a budget spread on more features then current games... doesn't add up in the money section, I'm afraid. And unless it does, it's likely not going to launch.
At least you didn't add open/forced PvP, heavy death penalties and full looting of player corpses. Some people on these forums think that actually appeals to more than a (not literal) handful of us. ;-)
It's taken a lot longer than I thought it would, but I think we are moving inexorably towards the cheaper to develop, niche MMORPG.
The first wave of MMORPGs built with the Hero Engine have yet to arrive. That will be the first generation of games built faster with a stock Engine that is actually built for making an MMORPG, not something like the Unreal Engine cobbled together with networking solutions to force it to be an MMORPG, which is what Vanguard used.
You can build an MMORPG with the Hero Engine in as little as 2 years. couple that with a good outsourced 3d art pipeline from Asia, and would could see a near future where smaller niche MMORPGs make money.
I have also QUIT every MMORPG until an MMORPG with
is implemented.
If we subscribe to games we dislike such as WoW, developers will just keep copying WoW features and making other WoWs with slight differences.
I am totally disenfranchised from this industry. I think the only game I am looking forward to is Dragon Age: 0rigins (2009) because of player-tools to develop worlds, characters, content, items, etc. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Age:_Origins
Edit: I just hope the toolset is intuitive and user-friendly. The Neverwinter Nights 2 toolset was awful.
Edit 2: I am not even buying MMORPGs to "try" them anymore, even though I used to buy them all to try them . . . and I would try them with excitement because I would want to explore a "world."
I have not experienced an MMORPG world . . . I cannot even remember.
Admriker, you might as well forget it because it's never going to happen. I know I've given up on <The Dream Game>. The linear, theme park games will continue to dominate untill you lie rotting in your coffin. From time to time some smaller company will try to make a more sandboxy game but they will always F it up one way or another leading to low subscriptions which in turn reinforces the idea that people don't want sandboxy games.
So you might as well give up on the idea and join the crowd of brainless zombies stumbling through the themeparks because that's the future. Even the linear games are losing what little freedom they once gave people. The current trend is for games that lead people through the content step by step all the way.
And to make it even worse they have accelerated leveling so that if you blink at the wrong moment you miss five levels worth of content. You are right, levels are an illusion. They give the illusion of progress and accomplishment when in reality they simply reset your character for the next tier of content which just as easily could have been available to you if the game had no levels at all. But people gotta have their levels so they can feel like badasses or whatever. And the levels gotta go fast. Yeah, no slow arse time sinking levels, people want to go GO GO. Run run run through the levels so you can feel like you're getting things done. And then they reach the end and wonder where all the content went. Well, tough luck buddy, you've out leveled all of the content except the most time sinky content of all so what good did all your rushing to the end do for you?
Yeah, I don't play mmorpgs anymore myself except for free trials. But I guess I can still have some fun ranting about them.
Fine just disregard my post about Wurm Online...
If you been reading anything I been posting lately I do concur that there is a very big need for development in a new type of game called MOVW (Massive Online Virtual Worlds). I do believe that these kind of games are going to become the future mainstream of online communities. People want a means to escape reality of the real world if even briefly but the television is becoming boring. There are those that want to interact with and drive the story instead of watching it develop. Technology is there now to allow for more realistic environments and non-liner game play with multi-outcome quests. Past games are still in the asteroids era of hack and slash and do not have a story line that allows the non-liner game play of being virtual in your avatar. A few older games such as UO, EVE do aim this direction but still have a high risk factor of loosing everything which puts off some that do not want player versus player conflicts.
I believe however that there needs to be some kind of carrot to drive the player forward so a leveling system of some sort would still be required. Even a skill based system is a leveling system so don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. The skill based systems still requires time invested and as you get better things get easier to kill. A system that allows a player to be anything they want to be is the goal. There should be a main area which is open to everyone, is low threat and easy to path. There is no hack and slash theme park in this open world but there are instances where there is challenging content for those that want that kind of game play. Open areas are for those that want to craft, explore, buy/sell land/items and build cities with governing bodies. There should be factions however that allow a realistic world model and player versus player conflicts however there needs to be rules that keep problem players in check. There is also should be a neutral faction for those that do not want any conflict.
The open world needs to be huge to allow for real explorations and there needs to have some incentive to drive players to explore it such as unique items, mines, titles or remote dungeons. There also needs to be a means to fast travel in the world because some would just find it boring to take days to go from one major city to the other especially after already having traveled the path.
I could go on here and lay the entire design down but just read my past postings. There are bits and pieces scattered all over the boards.
Bottom line:
Making such a world is a costly and time consuming task. A project this size is considered epic and could run in into the 50+ million dollar range to produce. It carries a high risk of failure so it needs to have a very high return in investment. If it is planned correctly it could be the next big thing but if it has to many flaws in the design it could be the biggest flop in MMOG history. No Indie alone is going to be able to produce such a epic piece of work. It is going to require major production studio to do it.
Production studios are going to ask these questions and probably already have asked them for all we know.
Would anyone play a game like this?
Would it be fun or just boring?
Would it bring enough subscribers to actually make it worth pursuing?
OP
Same thing. Quit all MMOs.
And just know i am big virtual world / MMO entusiast. And have been following genre development since its creation.
I can safely say now - That there is nothing on horison that would even slightly come to what we are looking for.
At least nothing publically announced...
Mortal Online...maybe. Although I doubt it.
Except of this SWOTOR will probably be good online RPG. But it will not be a virtual world...just online multiplayer version of KOTOR...
I mostly gave up
I think you are right, and that is the problem.
SWOTOR will probably not be a world that we want. I am confident it will be a good RPG, but I anticipate it will be mostly linear and predictable.
What do you think of when you think of Star Wars? I think of
We might settle for less with SWOTOR, and that would be a shame to us as gamers and a shame to the brilliance that is Star Wars. We have to stop settling for generic MMORPGs. As I said, I look forward to SWOTOR, but I have been disappointed too many times . . . and it looks cartoony, which deep worries me. What we really want, perhaps, is a SWG-like game with more features, innovation, and so forth. We shall see.
Its not problem that SWOTOR will be cartoony , or will not have that Star-Wars feelingTM...
Its the fact that it will be just another DIKU-EQ amusement park rail ride.
Its simply astonishing that first MMO - Ultima Online was able to be actual fantasy world simulation. And today MMOs with all advancement in computer, internet and network technology , can not even make a semblance of open ended world.
They are even reducing it to instances !
How come that game design is actually de-evolving backwards ?
It is astonishing when you think about it, how the early MMORPGs had more immersion features.
All of the fancy graphics, technology, and so forth have not enhanced the world-feel or immersion that so many of us crave in experiencing MMORPGs.
The games do not even feel like a roleplaying . . . game: deliver this note; level-up; level-up more; raid; raid more. Give me a world of variety, exploration, options, features, and of course, innovation.
Try Ryzom, the only thing it is missing is non instanced player housing, but it offers a couple of unique things of its own ( like mobs mibrating etc ), it is a really nice mmorpg for pre-cu-nge vets, will keep you busy until Blizzard releases their Starcraft sandbox mmo
greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
It is astonishing when you think about it, how the early MMORPGs had more immersion features.
All of the fancy graphics, technology, and so forth have not enhanced the world-feel or immersion that so many of us crave in experiencing MMORPGs.
The games do not even feel like a roleplaying . . . game: deliver this note; level-up; level-up more; raid; raid more. Give me a world of variety, exploration, options, features, and of course, innovation.
It's actually expected and normal. The original MMOs were played by PnP gamers, MUDders, old school CRPGers (Ultima, Infocom games, Sierra games, etc). Their focus was mostly the interaction and the story. The purpose of playing was to solve the puzzles, avoid the traps and get to the gold/maiden/dragon/villain at the end. Leveling was a nice perk that happened along the way but was not the reason for playing. As MMOs because more popular, they attracted the new gamers - a crowd that finds a game like Wizardry 8 to be 'flawed' because it doesn't tell you were to go but will cite Final Fantasy as an example of an 'epic' RPG. The original crowd was a minority to begin with and the new crowd is HUGE. This huge crowd defines RPG by the advancement and the leveling... the acquisition of top gear and the capping of stats/skills. So that puts two forces at work:
1) the larger and newer crowd plays for advancement, not story or interaction
2) the best way to widen the audience is to lower the barrier to entry
The DikuMUD formula is the perfect fit for that, and the past decade has been spent refining it, making it more user friendly and making it as appealing to as many people as possible.
And then here's the next fun tidbit: Everyone who wants an 'immersive game world' has a completely differnt idea of what that should be, so it's an audience that you almost cannot cater to even if you tried. The OP is a classic example. He wants a 'decent' virtual world, but
- it cannot be totally open in design like Second Life
- it cannot be space themed
- it must be 3D graphics
- it must have combat
Each person pining for a 'decent' virtual world has their own set of conditionals that are deal-breakers for them - it's a very small crowd that is extremely difficult to cater to.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
It is astonishing when you think about it, how the early MMORPGs had more immersion features.
All of the fancy graphics, technology, and so forth have not enhanced the world-feel or immersion that so many of us crave in experiencing MMORPGs.
The games do not even feel like a roleplaying . . . game: deliver this note; level-up; level-up more; raid; raid more. Give me a world of variety, exploration, options, features, and of course, innovation.
It's actually expected and normal. The original MMOs were played by PnP gamers, MUDders, old school CRPGers (Ultima, Infocom games, Sierra games, etc). Their focus was mostly the interaction and the story. The purpose of playing was to solve the puzzles, avoid the traps and get to the gold/maiden/dragon/villain at the end. Leveling was a nice perk that happened along the way but was not the reason for playing. As MMOs because more popular, they attracted the new gamers - a crowd that finds a game like Wizardry 8 to be 'flawed' because it doesn't tell you were to go but will cite Final Fantasy as an example of an 'epic' RPG. The original crowd was a minority to begin with and the new crowd is HUGE. This huge crowd defines RPG by the advancement and the leveling... the acquisition of top gear and the capping of stats/skills. So that puts two forces at work:
1) the larger and newer crowd plays for advancement, not story or interaction
2) the best way to widen the audience is to lower the barrier to entry
The DikuMUD formula is the perfect fit for that, and the past decade has been spent refining it, making it more user friendly and making it as appealing to as many people as possible.
And then here's the next fun tidbit: Everyone who wants an 'immersive game world' has a completely differnt idea of what that should be, so it's an audience that you almost cannot cater to even if you tried. The OP is a classic example. He wants a 'decent' virtual world, but
- it cannot be totally open in design like Second Life
- it cannot be space themed
- it must be 3D graphics
- it must have combat
Each person pining for a 'decent' virtual world has their own set of conditionals that are deal-breakers for them - it's a very small crowd that is extremely difficult to cater to.
Warning a WOT coming!
I belive the oppisite. I believe there is a much larger crowd seeking a new form of entertainment and someone can cash in on it. With all due respect here I am posting my own opinion on the matter and debating with you on the current designs.
What you state here is exactly where developers are going. They are stuck to the formula of past successful design. Literally stuck in a rut kind of way. I mean why change what works? There is no one to challenge this right now so I doubt there be a change made to the current system in foreseeable future.
The second someone enters the scene to try to break the mold they get bombarded with the past games that still follow the past formulas. Nothing new or innovative is in the works for any developer studio right now because no developer is willing to take the risk of breaking the mold. Breaking this mold is no easy task of course and it is going to take someone to risk investment. We been round elsewhere on this matter and I for one am, yes still working on the over all picture but as stated am working on a small scale project also. Right now both my machines are tied up in procedural generations and I really have to reboot the one here to even work on the thing. Shit, it will be May before the program finishes. And it is in the last pass. LOL. I also believe that even an Indie will never be able to push the quality so it comes down to either selling it off to a big developer or shit can it.
As for the OP, I believe if even some of his ideas actually hit a MOVW then he would be very happy with the over all game play. I don't think to entirely follow the outlay be in good interest to a production studio but some of the ideas are already being implemented. Hell, no reason to just have one design here either. Nothing to say that some other developer can not use the new formula to make a similar MOVW based on space. I mean what is to keep them from doing it beside risk?
I would not be afraid to send my design to 2D or 2-1/2 D if the quality was high. However to capture the greatest numbers you know 3D is where future gaming is headed. I would not be surprised to see volumetric rendering becoming a mainstream as computer parallel processing becomes more advanced. Of course we do not have to go with future technology but to get the crowds you know eye candy is some of the driving force.
You are classifying and justifying that one formula should be the holy grail of gaming here and I find that unacceptable. Of course I am the rebel so why not push for a change? If certain people had never challenge gaming design, DnD would be non-existent. Those that push out the new technology are those that are willing to risk ridicule.
Ah, yes, Ryzom might fit the bill. I ought to drop by that game again one of these days.