From the time an MMO is launched it begins to die due to broken promises and general player dissatisfaction, there might be sparks of revival in form of expansions and such, but those are usually temporary; the real question is at what rate.
Well said, and with a few exceptions pretty accurate.
Originally posted by elocke
ROFLMAO! I'm sorry, this is too funny. First, what made you think LOTRO was dying at all? Second, no way in hell is it dying right now after releasing an award winning expansion pack. The world Tolkien wrote about hasn't even begun to be fully fleshed out but with each expansion and content update this is taking place. On a side note, while the game had a "quiet" start, the changes over the last 2 years and the incredible content updates from the developers makes this a game that will stand the test of mmo time, as it's predecessors have. Next to WoW and Eve, I personally see no other mmos out there worth playing over this one.
I won't argue your preference but it is pretty hard to make the argument that LotRO is some raging success when the game has not added a single server since launch. Yes, I bet it is financially succesful and subs are at a steady and healthy rate, but even with that award winning expansion you mention pops where not dented enough to add any servers so LotRO is much like what most games outside of WoW seem to be, stable and niche at best.
If your definition of "niche at best" is "not WoW level subs" then sure, LoTRO and almost every other sub based MMO is niche. However, to me WoW is an anomoly and not a good point of reference.
LoTRO is seemingly nestled with EVE, FFXI, EQ, EQ II, CoH, and WAR all of which are sitting comfortably in the 100K to 500K range of subs. Very very few sub based MMOs have that level of sucess (roughly ten currently if I'm not mistaken). To me "niche" implies an MMO that is on life support like SB, EQOA, or MxO (fewer than 50K or so subs).
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
We can only hope it will die as fast as possible Is it dead yet?
Why would you hope it dies as fast as possible?? Unless of course you are one of those who hates others having fun with something you dont like .... sad sad sad.
From the time an MMO is launched it begins to die due to broken promises and general player dissatisfaction, there might be sparks of revival in form of expansions and such, but those are usually temporary; the real question is at what rate.
Well said, and with a few exceptions pretty accurate.
Originally posted by elocke
ROFLMAO! I'm sorry, this is too funny. First, what made you think LOTRO was dying at all? Second, no way in hell is it dying right now after releasing an award winning expansion pack. The world Tolkien wrote about hasn't even begun to be fully fleshed out but with each expansion and content update this is taking place. On a side note, while the game had a "quiet" start, the changes over the last 2 years and the incredible content updates from the developers makes this a game that will stand the test of mmo time, as it's predecessors have. Next to WoW and Eve, I personally see no other mmos out there worth playing over this one.
I won't argue your preference but it is pretty hard to make the argument that LotRO is some raging success when the game has not added a single server since launch. Yes, I bet it is financially succesful and subs are at a steady and healthy rate, but even with that award winning expansion you mention pops where not dented enough to add any servers so LotRO is much like what most games outside of WoW seem to be, stable and niche at best.
If your definition of "niche at best" is "not WoW level subs" then sure, LoTRO and almost every other sub based MMO is niche. However, to me WoW is an anomoly and not a good point of reference.
LoTRO is seemingly nestled with EVE, FFXI, EQ, EQ II, CoH, and WAR all of which are sitting comfortably in the 100K to 500K range of subs. Very very few sub based MMOs have that level of sucess (roughly ten currently if I'm not mistaken). To me "niche" implies an MMO that is on life support like SB, EQOA, or MxO (fewer than 50K or so subs).
My 3rd spin at LOTRO has been fun. Up in the 40s now and enjoying myself. Turbine has made some mistakes lately (more than they usually do, their track record is pretty good) but its still the game of choice for me. And there is absolutely no sign that the game is dying, at least not from my perspective on my server (Landroval.)
And Shadowbane is no longer on life support. At least not after May 1. RIP to another game I tried way back when...
I was expecting something a little more epic here since this is Lord of the Rings. I didn;t care for Turbine's game engine and the world seemed very stagnant with no life to it. It still turned out to be an ok mmo considering there arenlt many good mmos out there now.
I will tell you this. Our kin has lost approx. half it's players in the last month. Turbine has made some failry big mistakes with the game and even old timers are leaving (not to say they won't be back in the future). I find myself playing it less and less. Hopefully book 8 will be a good one and will bring people back. (and correct the problems that have been mentioned again and again in the LOTRO forums).
No it won't die, but the people that made this a VERY special game are leaving and that concerns me.
LotrO have had a healthy playerbase for 2 years now They succesfull released their first expnasion which grew the population The have right to the license foratlest another 5 year with option for another 3 after that. One of the few MMOs which havent had any server merges. So the answer is NO
I dont know if its going to die any time soon but i can tell you that finding groups isnt as easy as it was a few months back. I play at different times of day and night and am finding it harder to get the group quests done.
If your definition of "niche at best" is "not WoW level subs" then sure, LoTRO and almost every other sub based MMO is niche. However, to me WoW is an anomoly and not a good point of reference.
LoTRO is seemingly nestled with EVE, FFXI, EQ, EQ II, CoH, and WAR all of which are sitting comfortably in the 100K to 500K range of subs. Very very few sub based MMOs have that level of sucess (roughly ten currently if I'm not mistaken). To me "niche" implies an MMO that is on life support like SB, EQOA, or MxO (fewer than 50K or so subs).
By niche I am not implying some smallish or insignificant base just that it has a specific segment of the market that it appeals to and it is, for the most part, going to exist it that segment and not much else for its life. LotRO is a good game, it is well made and has most all the elements of a true MMO (unlike so many MMOs these days that are glorified RPG games more than MMOs). But that being said, it has limitations and of late especially Turbine has been showing they cannot keep up in terms of content with the latest stuff turning out to be grindy and very much hoop jumping contests. While I doubt the game is anywhere near dying it is certainly not really expanding either - it seems stable and healthy and settled amongst its corner of the MMO space.
What grandpagamer said about groups is true though, whether because of pops or MoM (everyone there not in SoA world) or whatnot. Personally, I think the chian questing in the game is terrible - nearly everything is a 4 or 5 parter going back and forth to same area over and over only to find at the end you suddenly get a group quest that takes a whole bunch more folks than what you had (or if you did previous parts solo). Not a big deal to get groups but that is a major pain of late for whatever reason and for the none marquee quests (the vast majority) it is hard to find the group because with all the stages even if you get folks it takes forever to get everyone on the same part. In the end, it adds up to a game with seriously broken grouping where it seems most people just get a pal or some random high level to jump in and kill the named or whatever while others just tag along for sompletion - it doesn't matter to XP since kill XP is so minimal compared to quest completion XP.
If your definition of "niche at best" is "not WoW level subs" then sure, LoTRO and almost every other sub based MMO is niche. However, to me WoW is an anomoly and not a good point of reference.
LoTRO is seemingly nestled with EVE, FFXI, EQ, EQ II, CoH, and WAR all of which are sitting comfortably in the 100K to 500K range of subs. Very very few sub based MMOs have that level of sucess (roughly ten currently if I'm not mistaken). To me "niche" implies an MMO that is on life support like SB, EQOA, or MxO (fewer than 50K or so subs).
By niche I am not implying some smallish or insignificant base just that it has a specific segment of the market that it appeals to and it is, for the most part, going to exist it that segment and not much else for its life. LotRO is a good game, it is well made and has most all the elements of a true MMO (unlike so many MMOs these days that are glorified RPG games more than MMOs). But that being said, it has limitations and of late especially Turbine has been showing they cannot keep up in terms of content with the latest stuff turning out to be grindy and very much hoop jumping contests. While I doubt the game is anywhere near dying it is certainly not really expanding either - it seems stable and healthy and settled amongst its corner of the MMO space.
What grandpagamer said about groups is true though, whether because of pops or MoM (everyone there not in SoA world) or whatnot. Personally, I think the chian questing in the game is terrible - nearly everything is a 4 or 5 parter going back and forth to same area over and over only to find at the end you suddenly get a group quest that takes a whole bunch more folks than what you had (or if you did previous parts solo). Not a big deal to get groups but that is a major pain of late for whatever reason and for the none marquee quests (the vast majority) it is hard to find the group because with all the stages even if you get folks it takes forever to get everyone on the same part. In the end, it adds up to a game with seriously broken grouping where it seems most people just get a pal or some random high level to jump in and kill the named or whatever while others just tag along for sompletion - it doesn't matter to XP since kill XP is so minimal compared to quest completion XP.
yes thats it exactly. ive had three groups doing the same quest chain and when a part is complete someone leaves and then i cant get it done. Its not that they get theirs then just quit its just that its hard to keep a full group to complete all the parts.
What gets me on grouping is that there are theme park or dungeon type areas that justify taking time to get a group as you are gonna head in and work the area for some time. But with normal world quests, fellowship quests or small fellowship quests, the actual part you often need the group for is just some end kill amounting to only a very small fraction of the total time spent doing not only the chain but even that part. So it is just so fundamentally broken in that regard - spend an hour doing a chain and have it culminate with 2 to 4 minutes that needs a group (be it group of a couple or a full group). It just makes no sense as you are gonna lose out no matter how you do it. Either you get a group from start of chain and everyone is bored stiff as you walk through early stages on auto pilot overwhelming it or you only group for end part and that is hard because what are the chances that right there in that area at that time are the people you need to do just that part - and even if that stuff comes together you spend far, far more time getting the folks together than just doing that last part.
It just makes no sense to me, and I say this as someone who has really tried to figure out how to arrange how I play to fit with what they had in mind. All I can figure is that they just intend for you to go through and area solo - do what you can do and then either spam LFF forever until you get a group for that last little part only to break up after the very short few minutes it takes (what are chances they are all on same parts for others you have spread around the area after all). Or you ask for some high level person to come escort you through (lots of this happens, a ton - and since it happens so much it only worsens the situation of trying to find people to group with legitimately). Or you just level past it and come back and clean up the trash later (or possibly abandon and move on). None of these are very fun, all ruin the otherwise good world and fun game and mostly interesting group mechanics when you are doing legit group stuff.
FYI, grandpagamer - I am on Silverlode (Agynt 43 RK, Ajynt 23 LM, Agynte 23 HUNT, and Smyth 34 MIN) if you want to try to hook up. I canceled (again, 2nd time through since pre order) but have 5 days sub left to try to find some way around this recurring frustration.
I must say I have had my concerns about this lately since A lot of very old and good players have quit, But I still think this game has a good few years in it easy.
What gets me on grouping is that there are theme park or dungeon type areas that justify taking time to get a group as you are gonna head in and work the area for some time. But with normal world quests, fellowship quests or small fellowship quests, the actual part you often need the group for is just some end kill amounting to only a very small fraction of the total time spent doing not only the chain but even that part. So it is just so fundamentally broken in that regard - spend an hour doing a chain and have it culminate with 2 to 4 minutes that needs a group (be it group of a couple or a full group). It just makes no sense as you are gonna lose out no matter how you do it. Either you get a group from start of chain and everyone is bored stiff as you walk through early stages on auto pilot overwhelming it or you only group for end part and that is hard because what are the chances that right there in that area at that time are the people you need to do just that part - and even if that stuff comes together you spend far, far more time getting the folks together than just doing that last part.
It just makes no sense to me, and I say this as someone who has really tried to figure out how to arrange how I play to fit with what they had in mind. All I can figure is that they just intend for you to go through and area solo - do what you can do and then either spam LFF forever until you get a group for that last little part only to break up after the very short few minutes it takes (what are chances they are all on same parts for others you have spread around the area after all). Or you ask for some high level person to come escort you through (lots of this happens, a ton - and since it happens so much it only worsens the situation of trying to find people to group with legitimately). Or you just level past it and come back and clean up the trash later (or possibly abandon and move on). None of these are very fun, all ruin the otherwise good world and fun game and mostly interesting group mechanics when you are doing legit group stuff.
FYI, grandpagamer - I am on Silverlode (Agynt 43 RK, Ajynt 23 LM, Agynte 23 HUNT, and Smyth 34 MIN) if you want to try to hook up. I canceled (again, 2nd time through since pre order) but have 5 days sub left to try to find some way around this recurring frustration.
Thank you for the offer Agtsmith. I play on landroval. Im going to give it the rest of this 30 days on my sub and see what happens. The quest chain im talking about is the Spider one in Trollshaws. Im to the end of it and need one more trapdoor spider eggsac ,With Their Own Weapons its called. Just one more...very frustrating.
I know that quest and it is a perfect example (I think) of all that is fubar with LotRO questing/grouping. First, you have this very linear area and that is annoying - then you got a multi part quest that sends you through the very same area like 3 or 4 times. It isn't particularly hard it is just that with the 'elite' MOBs (lamely regular MOBs with inflated hitpoints) and the way you get them in multiples it just cannot be done solo so you got to get a few people. Once you get a few people it is a total snoozefest requiring no skill or attention it just takes time because you have to go through the linear path taking all the trash mobs (still elites) just to get to the spots where the goals are then you got to reverse and do it again to get out - then advance and back and rinse and repeat.
I won't say the game is dying at all because I seriously doubt it is although I do believe there are serious 'resource' issues at Turbine of late seeing how DDO is decaying and even LotRO is not seeming to get the resources it needs (datacenter moves, severe outages, and other such issues). To me it looks like they are cash starved and trying to cut corners and stretch things out - if you think of it then it is understandable as DDO bombed and is just hanging on to a very small base while LotRO was likely successful it never grew from launch and with the lifetime accounts that is a lot of revenue that they now are not getting. The forums are showing lots of grumblings and while that is always the case around MMOs to some degree it seems there is a whole lot of discontent about MoM, the grind and timesink stuff being put in, and the general direction of development and maintenance of late. The game is not dying but I think it is clearly ill, what turbine does these next few updates will likely decide whether it withers even as it goes on or continues ahead as it is now.
I found this nice little website that tells population of a lot of LOTRO servers a few days ago. I wish I had known about this before I joined the Brandywine server because it always seems to be a bit overloaded. http://status.warriorsofnargathrond.com/?numbers=yes
Are those numbers legit? If so, there's currently 206,025 playing LoTRO, with 14,174 people on my server alone (Meneldor). Any yes, Brandywine is about to explode (33,705 players currently on it.)
I found this nice little website that tells population of a lot of LOTRO servers a few days ago. I wish I had known about this before I joined the Brandywine server because it always seems to be a bit overloaded. http://status.warriorsofnargathrond.com/?numbers=yes
Are those numbers legit? If so, there's currently 206,025 playing LoTRO, with 14,174 people on my server alone (Meneldor). Any yes, Brandywine is about to explode (33,705 players currently on it.)
Not too shabby at all. Go LoTRO.
That site, and others like it, is full of crap. The numbers they show, most likely, are the login que numbers and those persist between server restarts (or some other reset mechanism). So server A starts up and the first player to connect gets a login que number of 1 and the next player 2 and so on and so on climbing sequentially until a reboot. There is no external mechanism to determine how many people are logged on to any server, or all servers collectively. Turbine is the only one who knows those numbers and they are very tight lipped.
LotRO has a stable base of players but in comparing my experience with LotRO over several subscription runs (month at launch, two months last summer, and the last two months) I can tell you that it is not a raging, growing, game. It has a stable and healthy population but with the recent expansion the original game areas do get very light in pops with a /who showing many low to mid level areas often as almost vacant (obviously anonymous folks don't show in /who but just saying).
All that being said, I don't think what is happening with the game since Moria is about subscription numbers so much as it is about a, seemingly, growing dissatisfaction of the player base with where the game is going. MoM brought some big time shifts in the way end game works and there is a lot of disgust over many of those changes - timsink grind type rinse and repeat stuff. Additionally, the way MoM trumps the rest of the game in terms of gear/rewards has really, really hurt the base of the game outside of Moria. Also, changes made in book 7, and even in Moria, seem less thought out and less well crafted than what Turbine has done before with SoA. Grouping issues are mounting as discussed above as well. Lastly, Turbine (for whatever reason) has become very suspect in server management and maintenance over the last few months with severe outages, lag problems, and other issues surrounding the health of the infrastructure. It all adds up to a game that seems to be teetering between the healthy and stable condition it was in and a less stable condition that may foreshadow a decline even if I seriously doubt it would decay so far as to die off.
I think Lotro will be fine I just think that they need to do some more expandsions and maybe develop some better pvp for people who love pvp, then I think the game will live for ages
Originally posted by AgtSmith All that being said, I don't think what is happening with the game since Moria is about subscription numbers so much as it is about a, seemingly, growing dissatisfaction of the player base with where the game is going. MoM brought some big time shifts in the way end game works and there is a lot of disgust over many of those changes - timsink grind type rinse and repeat stuff. Additionally, the way MoM trumps the rest of the game in terms of gear/rewards has really, really hurt the base of the game outside of Moria. Also, changes made in book 7, and even in Moria, seem less thought out and less well crafted than what Turbine has done before with SoA. Grouping issues are mounting as discussed above as well. Lastly, Turbine (for whatever reason) has become very suspect in server management and maintenance over the last few months with severe outages, lag problems, and other issues surrounding the health of the infrastructure. It all adds up to a game that seems to be teetering between the healthy and stable condition it was in and a less stable condition that may foreshadow a decline even if I seriously doubt it would decay so far as to die off.
In SoA people whined about there being no content, in MoM they whine about the grind and the time sinks. Its pretty hard for Turbine to create enough fun content to keep people happy... And the fun thing is that MoM is less grindy than SoA was but people just HAVE TO max out evrything as fast as possible and then it become a grind.
And the grouping design is much better in Moria than it was in SoA.. To bad book 7 was just solo content...
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
And the grouping design is much better in Moria than it was in SoA.. To bad book 7 was just solo content...
Nothing wrong with solo content... too bad it is boring solo content.
As Turbine have recently said, they try and balance between group/solo content, and this patch favoured the solo'er. At least it is something that everyone can participate in, if you can stand it...
And the grouping design is much better in Moria than it was in SoA.. To bad book 7 was just solo content...
Nothing wrong with solo content... too bad it is boring solo content.
As Turbine have recently said, they try and balance between group/solo content, and this patch favoured the solo'er. At least it is something that everyone can participate in, if you can stand it...
Well, solo content in MMOs are boring by definition IMO.. What kind of content do you expect Turbine to make for the solo players? There even were 6 repeatable solo-instances in book 7 with some randomness, I dont know any MMO with that kind of content for end-game solo players. And if people dont whant to "grind" item xp or rep then there is no point doing it. What were the solo players doing pre-Moria after reaching 50? Lots of more options and quality contetn now. The problem is the lack of Raids now..
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
And the grouping design is much better in Moria than it was in SoA.. To bad book 7 was just solo content...
Nothing wrong with solo content... too bad it is boring solo content.
As Turbine have recently said, they try and balance between group/solo content, and this patch favoured the solo'er. At least it is something that everyone can participate in, if you can stand it...
Well, solo content in MMOs are boring by definition IMO.. What kind of content do you expect Turbine to make for the solo players? There even were 6 repeatable solo-instances in book 7 with some randomness, I dont know any MMO with that kind of content for end-game solo players. And if people dont whant to "grind" item xp or rep then there is no point doing it. What were the solo players doing pre-Moria after reaching 50? Lots of more options and quality contetn now. The problem is the lack of Raids now..
Papadam you have a great point, why would people play a mmo to solo? that does not make sense but in my experience there are people who wish to solo and I think that having a good blend of both solo and group action is good.
I personally find playing solo quite boring but sometimes I play solo when I just want to chill out.
Some people in ths thread need to understand that your personal opinion, does not equal to a enjoyable game for the majority of players (As in, its not the most optimial for enjoyment by the masses, not that your opinion/playstyle is unfun).
Turbine is doing a fine job of making sure all play styles are supported.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I have seen a small decline in the amount of players as my maxed out friends list grows more inactive everyday.
The recent Book 7 update was Turbine's worst by far. Mob pathing bugs, raid lock issues, bad class changes, broken escort quests, server instability, more rep grinding, and revamps to some instances which have made them nearly impossible in hard mode. All of this has forced a smaller percentage of the player base to quit.
My theory is that when Turbine fixes these issues, rolls out Book 8, and then has a welcome back weekend most of those players will return. Not all will come back, but most. Add that to a decent trickle of new players and I think by fall 09 Turbine will have the game back to where it was pre-Book 7.
When will LoTRO die? Not sure, but if they don't get some of their game mechanics fixed you'll see a BIG drop off in 2010 when SWTOR goes live. If Bio-Ware stays true to their awesome game development past and truly delivers a one of a kind story telling atmosphere, then Turbine may have something to worry about.
Book 7 was solo content because book 8 surely won't be. If any indication by the path describe is taken Dol Guldur will be a portion of it.
LOTRO is not dying. It has typically lost a few after initial releases just as it has in the past. Except one thing I have noticed on Vilya where I play. The population is higher now that in SoA days.
And for this bug BS. Give me a break. This game even with bk 7 bugs is more stable than a good day on AoC or any crap SOE puts out. Turbine has addressed most of the issues and will be updating to fix the remainder. So what if we lost a few hunters, Middle Earth is only the better for it.
Again, I think it is clear that LotRO is not dying, but that being there is a clear disatisfaction with the direction of the game of late including MoM. It isn't a question of wether MoM is good it is a question of how it takes the game in a new direction. For one, the stuff from MoM so eclipses all other stuff that the original game has become nothing but flyover terratory. A good expansion, IMHO, adds to the game it doesn't supplant what was alrleady there. Furthermore, the real grouping issues are not so much at the upper levels but low and mid levels where pops are very light in most places and the 'content' for many group quests so poor (I.E. what this guy said).
i never once felt like i was playing a lord of the rings game while playing this mmo. Turbine have 2 of the biggest IP's ever created and they scored below par with both of them..think of the possibilities available if you have the rights to dungeons and dragons, not to mention lord of the rings.
Comments
Well said, and with a few exceptions pretty accurate.
I won't argue your preference but it is pretty hard to make the argument that LotRO is some raging success when the game has not added a single server since launch. Yes, I bet it is financially succesful and subs are at a steady and healthy rate, but even with that award winning expansion you mention pops where not dented enough to add any servers so LotRO is much like what most games outside of WoW seem to be, stable and niche at best.
If your definition of "niche at best" is "not WoW level subs" then sure, LoTRO and almost every other sub based MMO is niche. However, to me WoW is an anomoly and not a good point of reference.
LoTRO is seemingly nestled with EVE, FFXI, EQ, EQ II, CoH, and WAR all of which are sitting comfortably in the 100K to 500K range of subs. Very very few sub based MMOs have that level of sucess (roughly ten currently if I'm not mistaken). To me "niche" implies an MMO that is on life support like SB, EQOA, or MxO (fewer than 50K or so subs).
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Why would you hope it dies as fast as possible?? Unless of course you are one of those who hates others having fun with something you dont like .... sad sad sad.
Well said, and with a few exceptions pretty accurate.
I won't argue your preference but it is pretty hard to make the argument that LotRO is some raging success when the game has not added a single server since launch. Yes, I bet it is financially succesful and subs are at a steady and healthy rate, but even with that award winning expansion you mention pops where not dented enough to add any servers so LotRO is much like what most games outside of WoW seem to be, stable and niche at best.
If your definition of "niche at best" is "not WoW level subs" then sure, LoTRO and almost every other sub based MMO is niche. However, to me WoW is an anomoly and not a good point of reference.
LoTRO is seemingly nestled with EVE, FFXI, EQ, EQ II, CoH, and WAR all of which are sitting comfortably in the 100K to 500K range of subs. Very very few sub based MMOs have that level of sucess (roughly ten currently if I'm not mistaken). To me "niche" implies an MMO that is on life support like SB, EQOA, or MxO (fewer than 50K or so subs).
My 3rd spin at LOTRO has been fun. Up in the 40s now and enjoying myself. Turbine has made some mistakes lately (more than they usually do, their track record is pretty good) but its still the game of choice for me. And there is absolutely no sign that the game is dying, at least not from my perspective on my server (Landroval.)
And Shadowbane is no longer on life support. At least not after May 1. RIP to another game I tried way back when...
I was expecting something a little more epic here since this is Lord of the Rings. I didn;t care for Turbine's game engine and the world seemed very stagnant with no life to it. It still turned out to be an ok mmo considering there arenlt many good mmos out there now.
I will tell you this. Our kin has lost approx. half it's players in the last month. Turbine has made some failry big mistakes with the game and even old timers are leaving (not to say they won't be back in the future). I find myself playing it less and less. Hopefully book 8 will be a good one and will bring people back. (and correct the problems that have been mentioned again and again in the LOTRO forums).
No it won't die, but the people that made this a VERY special game are leaving and that concerns me.
We need server splits not merges
Honestly, the game is more healthy than ever.
I dont know if its going to die any time soon but i can tell you that finding groups isnt as easy as it was a few months back. I play at different times of day and night and am finding it harder to get the group quests done.
If your definition of "niche at best" is "not WoW level subs" then sure, LoTRO and almost every other sub based MMO is niche. However, to me WoW is an anomoly and not a good point of reference.
LoTRO is seemingly nestled with EVE, FFXI, EQ, EQ II, CoH, and WAR all of which are sitting comfortably in the 100K to 500K range of subs. Very very few sub based MMOs have that level of sucess (roughly ten currently if I'm not mistaken). To me "niche" implies an MMO that is on life support like SB, EQOA, or MxO (fewer than 50K or so subs).
By niche I am not implying some smallish or insignificant base just that it has a specific segment of the market that it appeals to and it is, for the most part, going to exist it that segment and not much else for its life. LotRO is a good game, it is well made and has most all the elements of a true MMO (unlike so many MMOs these days that are glorified RPG games more than MMOs). But that being said, it has limitations and of late especially Turbine has been showing they cannot keep up in terms of content with the latest stuff turning out to be grindy and very much hoop jumping contests. While I doubt the game is anywhere near dying it is certainly not really expanding either - it seems stable and healthy and settled amongst its corner of the MMO space.
What grandpagamer said about groups is true though, whether because of pops or MoM (everyone there not in SoA world) or whatnot. Personally, I think the chian questing in the game is terrible - nearly everything is a 4 or 5 parter going back and forth to same area over and over only to find at the end you suddenly get a group quest that takes a whole bunch more folks than what you had (or if you did previous parts solo). Not a big deal to get groups but that is a major pain of late for whatever reason and for the none marquee quests (the vast majority) it is hard to find the group because with all the stages even if you get folks it takes forever to get everyone on the same part. In the end, it adds up to a game with seriously broken grouping where it seems most people just get a pal or some random high level to jump in and kill the named or whatever while others just tag along for sompletion - it doesn't matter to XP since kill XP is so minimal compared to quest completion XP.
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If your definition of "niche at best" is "not WoW level subs" then sure, LoTRO and almost every other sub based MMO is niche. However, to me WoW is an anomoly and not a good point of reference.
LoTRO is seemingly nestled with EVE, FFXI, EQ, EQ II, CoH, and WAR all of which are sitting comfortably in the 100K to 500K range of subs. Very very few sub based MMOs have that level of sucess (roughly ten currently if I'm not mistaken). To me "niche" implies an MMO that is on life support like SB, EQOA, or MxO (fewer than 50K or so subs).
By niche I am not implying some smallish or insignificant base just that it has a specific segment of the market that it appeals to and it is, for the most part, going to exist it that segment and not much else for its life. LotRO is a good game, it is well made and has most all the elements of a true MMO (unlike so many MMOs these days that are glorified RPG games more than MMOs). But that being said, it has limitations and of late especially Turbine has been showing they cannot keep up in terms of content with the latest stuff turning out to be grindy and very much hoop jumping contests. While I doubt the game is anywhere near dying it is certainly not really expanding either - it seems stable and healthy and settled amongst its corner of the MMO space.
What grandpagamer said about groups is true though, whether because of pops or MoM (everyone there not in SoA world) or whatnot. Personally, I think the chian questing in the game is terrible - nearly everything is a 4 or 5 parter going back and forth to same area over and over only to find at the end you suddenly get a group quest that takes a whole bunch more folks than what you had (or if you did previous parts solo). Not a big deal to get groups but that is a major pain of late for whatever reason and for the none marquee quests (the vast majority) it is hard to find the group because with all the stages even if you get folks it takes forever to get everyone on the same part. In the end, it adds up to a game with seriously broken grouping where it seems most people just get a pal or some random high level to jump in and kill the named or whatever while others just tag along for sompletion - it doesn't matter to XP since kill XP is so minimal compared to quest completion XP.
yes thats it exactly. ive had three groups doing the same quest chain and when a part is complete someone leaves and then i cant get it done. Its not that they get theirs then just quit its just that its hard to keep a full group to complete all the parts.
What gets me on grouping is that there are theme park or dungeon type areas that justify taking time to get a group as you are gonna head in and work the area for some time. But with normal world quests, fellowship quests or small fellowship quests, the actual part you often need the group for is just some end kill amounting to only a very small fraction of the total time spent doing not only the chain but even that part. So it is just so fundamentally broken in that regard - spend an hour doing a chain and have it culminate with 2 to 4 minutes that needs a group (be it group of a couple or a full group). It just makes no sense as you are gonna lose out no matter how you do it. Either you get a group from start of chain and everyone is bored stiff as you walk through early stages on auto pilot overwhelming it or you only group for end part and that is hard because what are the chances that right there in that area at that time are the people you need to do just that part - and even if that stuff comes together you spend far, far more time getting the folks together than just doing that last part.
It just makes no sense to me, and I say this as someone who has really tried to figure out how to arrange how I play to fit with what they had in mind. All I can figure is that they just intend for you to go through and area solo - do what you can do and then either spam LFF forever until you get a group for that last little part only to break up after the very short few minutes it takes (what are chances they are all on same parts for others you have spread around the area after all). Or you ask for some high level person to come escort you through (lots of this happens, a ton - and since it happens so much it only worsens the situation of trying to find people to group with legitimately). Or you just level past it and come back and clean up the trash later (or possibly abandon and move on). None of these are very fun, all ruin the otherwise good world and fun game and mostly interesting group mechanics when you are doing legit group stuff.
FYI, grandpagamer - I am on Silverlode (Agynt 43 RK, Ajynt 23 LM, Agynte 23 HUNT, and Smyth 34 MIN) if you want to try to hook up. I canceled (again, 2nd time through since pre order) but have 5 days sub left to try to find some way around this recurring frustration.
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I must say I have had my concerns about this lately since A lot of very old and good players have quit, But I still think this game has a good few years in it easy.
Aion Quests Guide
Thank you for the offer Agtsmith. I play on landroval. Im going to give it the rest of this 30 days on my sub and see what happens. The quest chain im talking about is the Spider one in Trollshaws. Im to the end of it and need one more trapdoor spider eggsac ,With Their Own Weapons its called. Just one more...very frustrating.
I know that quest and it is a perfect example (I think) of all that is fubar with LotRO questing/grouping. First, you have this very linear area and that is annoying - then you got a multi part quest that sends you through the very same area like 3 or 4 times. It isn't particularly hard it is just that with the 'elite' MOBs (lamely regular MOBs with inflated hitpoints) and the way you get them in multiples it just cannot be done solo so you got to get a few people. Once you get a few people it is a total snoozefest requiring no skill or attention it just takes time because you have to go through the linear path taking all the trash mobs (still elites) just to get to the spots where the goals are then you got to reverse and do it again to get out - then advance and back and rinse and repeat.
I won't say the game is dying at all because I seriously doubt it is although I do believe there are serious 'resource' issues at Turbine of late seeing how DDO is decaying and even LotRO is not seeming to get the resources it needs (datacenter moves, severe outages, and other such issues). To me it looks like they are cash starved and trying to cut corners and stretch things out - if you think of it then it is understandable as DDO bombed and is just hanging on to a very small base while LotRO was likely successful it never grew from launch and with the lifetime accounts that is a lot of revenue that they now are not getting. The forums are showing lots of grumblings and while that is always the case around MMOs to some degree it seems there is a whole lot of discontent about MoM, the grind and timesink stuff being put in, and the general direction of development and maintenance of late. The game is not dying but I think it is clearly ill, what turbine does these next few updates will likely decide whether it withers even as it goes on or continues ahead as it is now.
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Are those numbers legit? If so, there's currently 206,025 playing LoTRO, with 14,174 people on my server alone (Meneldor). Any yes, Brandywine is about to explode (33,705 players currently on it.)
Not too shabby at all. Go LoTRO.
Are those numbers legit? If so, there's currently 206,025 playing LoTRO, with 14,174 people on my server alone (Meneldor). Any yes, Brandywine is about to explode (33,705 players currently on it.)
Not too shabby at all. Go LoTRO.
That site, and others like it, is full of crap. The numbers they show, most likely, are the login que numbers and those persist between server restarts (or some other reset mechanism). So server A starts up and the first player to connect gets a login que number of 1 and the next player 2 and so on and so on climbing sequentially until a reboot. There is no external mechanism to determine how many people are logged on to any server, or all servers collectively. Turbine is the only one who knows those numbers and they are very tight lipped.
LotRO has a stable base of players but in comparing my experience with LotRO over several subscription runs (month at launch, two months last summer, and the last two months) I can tell you that it is not a raging, growing, game. It has a stable and healthy population but with the recent expansion the original game areas do get very light in pops with a /who showing many low to mid level areas often as almost vacant (obviously anonymous folks don't show in /who but just saying).
All that being said, I don't think what is happening with the game since Moria is about subscription numbers so much as it is about a, seemingly, growing dissatisfaction of the player base with where the game is going. MoM brought some big time shifts in the way end game works and there is a lot of disgust over many of those changes - timsink grind type rinse and repeat stuff. Additionally, the way MoM trumps the rest of the game in terms of gear/rewards has really, really hurt the base of the game outside of Moria. Also, changes made in book 7, and even in Moria, seem less thought out and less well crafted than what Turbine has done before with SoA. Grouping issues are mounting as discussed above as well. Lastly, Turbine (for whatever reason) has become very suspect in server management and maintenance over the last few months with severe outages, lag problems, and other issues surrounding the health of the infrastructure. It all adds up to a game that seems to be teetering between the healthy and stable condition it was in and a less stable condition that may foreshadow a decline even if I seriously doubt it would decay so far as to die off.
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I think Lotro will be fine I just think that they need to do some more expandsions and maybe develop some better pvp for people who love pvp, then I think the game will live for ages
Aion Quests Guide
In SoA people whined about there being no content, in MoM they whine about the grind and the time sinks. Its pretty hard for Turbine to create enough fun content to keep people happy... And the fun thing is that MoM is less grindy than SoA was but people just HAVE TO max out evrything as fast as possible and then it become a grind.
And the grouping design is much better in Moria than it was in SoA.. To bad book 7 was just solo content...
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Nothing wrong with solo content... too bad it is boring solo content.
As Turbine have recently said, they try and balance between group/solo content, and this patch favoured the solo'er. At least it is something that everyone can participate in, if you can stand it...
Nothing wrong with solo content... too bad it is boring solo content.
As Turbine have recently said, they try and balance between group/solo content, and this patch favoured the solo'er. At least it is something that everyone can participate in, if you can stand it...
Well, solo content in MMOs are boring by definition IMO.. What kind of content do you expect Turbine to make for the solo players? There even were 6 repeatable solo-instances in book 7 with some randomness, I dont know any MMO with that kind of content for end-game solo players. And if people dont whant to "grind" item xp or rep then there is no point doing it. What were the solo players doing pre-Moria after reaching 50? Lots of more options and quality contetn now. The problem is the lack of Raids now..
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Nothing wrong with solo content... too bad it is boring solo content.
As Turbine have recently said, they try and balance between group/solo content, and this patch favoured the solo'er. At least it is something that everyone can participate in, if you can stand it...
Well, solo content in MMOs are boring by definition IMO.. What kind of content do you expect Turbine to make for the solo players? There even were 6 repeatable solo-instances in book 7 with some randomness, I dont know any MMO with that kind of content for end-game solo players. And if people dont whant to "grind" item xp or rep then there is no point doing it. What were the solo players doing pre-Moria after reaching 50? Lots of more options and quality contetn now. The problem is the lack of Raids now..
Papadam you have a great point, why would people play a mmo to solo? that does not make sense but in my experience there are people who wish to solo and I think that having a good blend of both solo and group action is good.
I personally find playing solo quite boring but sometimes I play solo when I just want to chill out.
Aion Quests Guide
Some people in ths thread need to understand that your personal opinion, does not equal to a enjoyable game for the majority of players (As in, its not the most optimial for enjoyment by the masses, not that your opinion/playstyle is unfun).
Turbine is doing a fine job of making sure all play styles are supported.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
LoTRO is not dying, yet.
I have seen a small decline in the amount of players as my maxed out friends list grows more inactive everyday.
The recent Book 7 update was Turbine's worst by far. Mob pathing bugs, raid lock issues, bad class changes, broken escort quests, server instability, more rep grinding, and revamps to some instances which have made them nearly impossible in hard mode. All of this has forced a smaller percentage of the player base to quit.
My theory is that when Turbine fixes these issues, rolls out Book 8, and then has a welcome back weekend most of those players will return. Not all will come back, but most. Add that to a decent trickle of new players and I think by fall 09 Turbine will have the game back to where it was pre-Book 7.
When will LoTRO die? Not sure, but if they don't get some of their game mechanics fixed you'll see a BIG drop off in 2010 when SWTOR goes live. If Bio-Ware stays true to their awesome game development past and truly delivers a one of a kind story telling atmosphere, then Turbine may have something to worry about.
Book 7 was solo content because book 8 surely won't be. If any indication by the path describe is taken Dol Guldur will be a portion of it.
LOTRO is not dying. It has typically lost a few after initial releases just as it has in the past. Except one thing I have noticed on Vilya where I play. The population is higher now that in SoA days.
And for this bug BS. Give me a break. This game even with bk 7 bugs is more stable than a good day on AoC or any crap SOE puts out. Turbine has addressed most of the issues and will be updating to fix the remainder. So what if we lost a few hunters, Middle Earth is only the better for it.
Again, I think it is clear that LotRO is not dying, but that being there is a clear disatisfaction with the direction of the game of late including MoM. It isn't a question of wether MoM is good it is a question of how it takes the game in a new direction. For one, the stuff from MoM so eclipses all other stuff that the original game has become nothing but flyover terratory. A good expansion, IMHO, adds to the game it doesn't supplant what was alrleady there. Furthermore, the real grouping issues are not so much at the upper levels but low and mid levels where pops are very light in most places and the 'content' for many group quests so poor (I.E. what this guy said).
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i never once felt like i was playing a lord of the rings game while playing this mmo. Turbine have 2 of the biggest IP's ever created and they scored below par with both of them..think of the possibilities available if you have the rights to dungeons and dragons, not to mention lord of the rings.