AoC was a great game. I just found it very disappointing that the fixes and changes made to the game had little to do with the end game content. I know few generations of players that have quit the game because they reached end game and had nothing else to do. There is only so many times you can run Onyx chambers and Kashetta runs. Outside of the few raid zones, there wasn't much to do. Also at the time, there was a huge imbalance in crafted armor and gems that there wasn't even much point to raid.
When we did raid, it was definitely a fun time, but even those were completed in due time. AoC was a great game, I just think it's downfall is it's lack of content and tailoring to the wrong level ranges. Even with mentors and what not, content is just to small.
One thing AoC definitely is, is that it is beautiful game!
Will some of you naysayers or just others who think there is a better game please PLEASE tell me whats out now thats better than AoC because I would really like to play it. This is not a rant, I would just really like to know. It will also give me some insite as to what your taste is cause I think AoC, while it is not perfect (What is?), is the best out now. If your going to say EvE or LoTRO please don't even bother posting I hate both of those so you will have no cred with me. All others are fair game. I would really like to try ther games you suggest.
I didn't read the whole thread, but I'll give you my input. I think Guild Wars is a much better game. The biggest issue I have with guild wars is that it is incredibly instanced, but since AoC is nearly the same way, they cancel out. Beyond that, Guild Wars is a MUCH better game than AoC, from the skill system, to the PvE content, to the PvP action.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
There are a few things that hold the game back from being truly great, despite some of it's brilliant concepts.
1 - PVP implementation : As of now, despite the best efforts of the development team; most pvp takes place in the level 80 zone Kheshatta. People running around, tethering guards around in order to kill players in order to grind pvp exp. A much, much, MUCH larger effort needs to be made to funnel PVP in the border kingdoms. Lootable resources are a good start, but there needs to be more incentive for both the average and circle jerked player to play in the border kingdoms at level 80. Capturable towers have been suggested for smaller guilds; but I feel more can be done here. If there's a free, no man's land zone where guilds constantly struggle for supremacy, you're going to notice a big dip in the growing retention... Also it would be fun.
2 - Combat system : Yes, sorry. I know there are a lot of people out there who think they are such giant heroes because they mastered this convoluted mess of a system. Yes, I commend you for mastering it; but it is weighed down by many poor design choices that make it not only daunting to the... "bads" out there, but highly annoying for the returning customers. Here is a sub list of my complaints about PVP combat at level 80.
*1* - Most every class requiring an absurd amount of micromanagement : At level 80 melee class (to be successful) is required to use... (base keys)
5 directional attack keys
2 Potions
7 Hot keys, right off the bat for doing regular attacks at potions. Here's a fun idea! Get rid of the potions as they are now. They are a pointless money sink and they only serve to complicate things.
5 directional attacks? Pointless. Three is fine. The lower right and lower left do nothing but add meaningless complication to an already active battle system.
*2* Combo animations and keypresses
The dev team about 6 months ago shortened all combos and allowed damage calculation to be applied right away, this was a good step but it does little about what Im referring to. The combo animations are still far too long. Meaning you have to time combos in a way that allows them to fire off and do damage, even while you're opponent is far away. Not only does this lend a mucky feeling to combat, but it's profoundly stupid looking. Combo animations of all types should be lowered, in my opinion.
*3* ridiculous excess of abilities
5 Directional attacks, and 2 potions. The 7 we went over earlier are compounded by the ridiculous amount of activated abilities each character must use to be effective.
As a typical level 80 barbarian, you must Have...
Left Attack
Middle Attack
Right attack
Lower Right Attack
Lower Left attack
Hp Potion
Stamina Potion
Weapon Swap Key
Cyclone of steel #
Cyclone of Steel #
Clobber 2
Stun Punch
Earthshatter
Impale
Spirit of the Panther
Armageddon falls
Excellent Balance
Escape Artist
Unstable Mind
No Escape
Haste
Second Wind
*Blitz* (Post Patch)
Im sure I even missed some, but I think that's enough. Even with my N52 and my Logitech G7, Im hard pressed to fit everything.
Personally, I'd rather see more emphasis on the movement system, and aiming your blows properly instead of memorizing a long list of redundant and unimaginative abilities.
Will some of you naysayers or just others who think there is a better game please PLEASE tell me whats out now thats better than AoC because I would really like to play it. This is not a rant, I would just really like to know. It will also give me some insite as to what your taste is cause I think AoC, while it is not perfect (What is?), is the best out now. If your going to say EvE or LoTRO please don't even bother posting I hate both of those so you will have no cred with me. All others are fair game. I would really like to try ther games you suggest.
For me AoC can never be a good game because of two things:
1. It is a fragmented world remiscent of old PC RPG games like Might and Magic where every area was like a level in Doom. It is not a world like in WOW where I can ride from Booty Bay to the Plague Lands without a loading screen. Its just a collection of area connected by loading screens. If this is the price of amazing graphics then I do not want to pay it.
2. Too much instancing. Even those little fragments of Hyboria are all instanced. Again, for me this is a deal breaker.
This game reminds me of Guild Wars. A good game, not an RPG.
--------------------------------------------------------- Never argue with idiots. They are immune to logic.
I was a closed beta tester for AoC and played it from launch up untill 2 months ago. I loved the Hyborian setting, the graphics and the combat system but I left because although the majority of people are happy about the upcomming changes to the game, I am of the complete oposite opinion. AoC was sold to me as a game where player skill was everything, gear did not matter. However, Funcom has caved to the demands of the WoW/EQ crowd who think that all MMO's have to be about grinding gear and raiding - NO THANKS! Any game that places an emphasis on gear over skill is a total no-no for me. What am I playing now? Well EVE for one, but then I have always had my EVE subscription running, even when I was testing and playing AoC. I also recently picked up The Chronicles of Spellborn. So far I am really enjoying TCoS, gear is just cosmetic but can be bolstered to stats of your liking by fitting different sigils, skills can also be boosted by fitting sigils which allows for very good customisation. The combat system is dynamic, different from AoC's but dynamic all the same. Dodging, targeting etc actually work, its not down to dice rolls. The graphics aren't as advanced as AoC's polygon count wise, but the artstyle is fantastic imho and the graphics themeselves are pretty decent. So to sum up, for me there are two better games on the market atm: 1. EVE (which means my opinion doesn't matter anyway ) 2. TCoS Remember these are only my opinions, and in no way am I saying AoC is a crap game. I think its a great game, I just don't like the direction that Funcom is taking it in.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
LogothX has very good arguments here. I would also like to comment on the matter.
about pvp implimentation, people go to kheshatta for a reason, all the 75+ quest are there. even if you are not looking for leveling/quests since you are looking for pvp you know there are ppl there. They have to add similar places where people can quest or pvpers can get better rewards.
i agree about the amount of micromanagement needed. As a bearshaman i have lots of counters against various attacks but micromanaging them on 1v1 requires a better player than me. This also creates an awkvard situation. If they nerf the class, normal players dont have a chance with the class, if they boost, good players become invincible. I dont think reducing 2 directional attacks can solve the problem though, its just 2 buttons, problem at hand is bigger than that. What i think is, i dont know if it can be done though, create something like mortal combat combo system. granted ppl will have to memorize the combos but using them for a time we already know what to press. By removing the combo starters we free alot of hotkey slots. I dont know if this thing can be implimented though. the game will have to keep track of your previous attacks this way.
I dont think removing potions is a good idea, pve side of the game depends too much on it for solo non-helaer class players.
Originally posted by urbanmonkey For me AoC can never be a good game because of two things: 1. It is a fragmented world remiscent of old PC RPG games like Might and Magic where every area was like a level in Doom. It is not a world like in WOW where I can ride from Booty Bay to the Plague Lands without a loading screen. Its just a collection of area connected by loading screens. If this is the price of amazing graphics then I do not want to pay it. 2. Too much instancing. Even those little fragments of Hyboria are all instanced. Again, for me this is a deal breaker. This game reminds me of Guild Wars. A good game, not an RPG.
Well written, couldn't agree with you more.
________________________________
Oh my got!!! i neber see a graphic of this before, i neber p2p any game before, but this game i must! ________________________________
For me AoC can never be a good game because of two things:
1. It is a fragmented world remiscent of old PC RPG games like Might and Magic where every area was like a level in Doom. It is not a world like in WOW where I can ride from Booty Bay to the Plague Lands without a loading screen. Its just a collection of area connected by loading screens. If this is the price of amazing graphics then I do not want to pay it.
2. Too much instancing. Even those little fragments of Hyboria are all instanced. Again, for me this is a deal breaker.
This game reminds me of Guild Wars. A good game, not an RPG.
Well written, couldn't agree with you more.
Well i couldn't disagree more.
There is no game that does not have loading screens, even WoW has them, when you go from continent to continent. Tell me a game that doesnt have any, i mean any, loading screens and then you have a point.
Even Eve, a great game, has to load each time you jump from a system to another.
The instancing in AOC has been brought to my attention(in game) only once in the nearly one year i have been playing. That was when i joined a group in the same zone as i was and could not see them on the map, this was remedied in about 2 mintues when i jumped to their instance. Oh and by the way i am sure every one knows that EQ2 has the same model of instancing!?!
So from my experience "Too Much Instancing" does not apply in the slightest.
The tilte of this thread is "Whats out thats better than AoC? " and i am yet to see one post telling us what game and why it is better than AOC?!?!
There is no game that does not have loading screens, even WoW has them, when you go from continent to continent. Tell me a game that doesnt have any, i mean any, loading screens and then you have a point.
Even Eve, a great game, has to load each time you jump from a system to another.
Of course all games have loading screens but I don't know any MMO that has as much as AoC. Just look at Tortage. You get a freaking loading screen every time you get inside a small house! Difference with loading screens in WoW and AoC is like night and day.
Maybe loading screens are not a big problem for you, but for many people this is a HUGE problem because it totally kills immersion, and an MMO without immersion is not a very good MMO.
Will some of you naysayers or just others who think there is a better game please PLEASE tell me whats out now thats better than AoC because I would really like to play it. This is not a rant, I would just really like to know. It will also give me some insite as to what your taste is cause I think AoC, while it is not perfect (What is?), is the best out now. If your going to say EvE or LoTRO please don't even bother posting I hate both of those so you will have no cred with me. All others are fair game. I would really like to try ther games you suggest.
For me AoC can never be a good game because of two things:
1. It is a fragmented world remiscent of old PC RPG games like Might and Magic where every area was like a level in Doom. It is not a world like in WOW where I can ride from Booty Bay to the Plague Lands without a loading screen. Its just a collection of area connected by loading screens. If this is the price of amazing graphics then I do not want to pay it.
2. Too much instancing. Even those little fragments of Hyboria are all instanced. Again, for me this is a deal breaker.
This game reminds me of Guild Wars. A good game, not an RPG.
Well written, couldn't agree with you more.
Well i couldn't disagree more.
There is no game that does not have loading screens, even WoW has them, when you go from continent to continent. Tell me a game that doesnt have any, i mean any, loading screens and then you have a point.
Even Eve, a great game, has to load each time you jump from a system to another.
The instancing in AOC has been brought to my attention(in game) only once in the nearly one year i have been playing. That was when i joined a group in the same zone as i was and could not see them on the map, this was remedied in about 2 mintues when i jumped to their instance. Oh and by the way i am sure every one knows that EQ2 has the same model of instancing!?!
So from my experience "Too Much Instancing" does not apply in the slightest.
The tilte of this thread is "Whats out thats better than AoC? " and i am yet to see one post telling us what game and why it is better than AOC?!?!
You don't see the instancing because no one is really playing the game anymore. But I recall the 'good old days' of release when my server would have 13 instances of Tortage alone, and even some of the internal dungeons in that zone had 6 or 7.
I forget its name, but there was one dungeon in Tortage that had multiple instances inside, and you could use those to your advantage to avoid gankers.
As for not seeing people posting whats better than AOC and why, the OP said don't tell him about EVE/LotRO because he hated them, and many folks here would say they both clearly better than AOC, in their opinion.
As someone else mentioned, better is defined by what you prefer, so no one can really point out a better game. WOW could be better, its certainly more popular. Runes of Magic could be better, at least I'm enjoying it now more than I did when I played AOC.
EQ2, DF, WAR all have fans who will tell you their game is better, because it has X, Y, Z features which is something they look for in the games they play.
Again, all subjective opinion. So in the end, the OP is really just a troll thread meant to provoke a response. That's fine, I love posting in them, but lets see it for what it is. The OP isn't really looking for enlightenment, he just wanted to pick a fight.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Underhalls is the name of the dungeon you talk about in Tortage.
Well I like Eve and play it, i also think WoW is an excellent game, although i am tired of it. AoC has moved far from the early days of bugs, lack of content and performance issues, even though it still has instancing.
As you say Kyleran, everyone likes the game they play and ultimately that's why they play it lol.
I personally like AoC but i dont say or think it is better than any other game out there, it my current flavour and i enjoy it.
My point is that AoC can now hold its own amongst other quality titles, even though it still needs more work.
There is no game that does not have loading screens, even WoW has them, when you go from continent to continent. Tell me a game that doesnt have any, i mean any, loading screens and then you have a point.
Even Eve, a great game, has to load each time you jump from a system to another.
Of course all games have loading screens but I don't know any MMO that has as much as AoC. Just look at Tortage. You get a freaking loading screen every time you get inside a small house! Difference with loading screens in WoW and AoC is like night and day.
Maybe loading screens are not a big problem for you, but for many people this is a HUGE problem because it totally kills immersion, and an MMO without immersion is not a very good MMO.
also you dont know of any mmo who has graphics as half good as AoC.
Lotro has very good graphics but again you have that cartoony look and the performance is hitchy, vanguard os very hitchy and to me the world is just to big , i really get bored just wandering around without purpose. AOC has the best graphics hannds down I dont even see an argument there, The performance is now very good and there is very little hitching.
I know people tend to hate it on these forums, but there is no MMORPG with more content and polish than World of Warcraft. If you can get over the cartoony graphics, you may enjoy it quite a bit. I did for over 4 years.
i think eve is at least 10X better than WoW, and it has serious non cartoony gfx
Originally posted by clearSam Originally posted by Anubisan I know people tend to hate it on these forums, but there is no MMORPG with more content and polish than World of Warcraft. If you can get over the cartoony graphics, you may enjoy it quite a bit. I did for over 4 years.
i think eve is at least 10X better than WoW, and it has serious non cartoony gfx
I think Tibia has the best graphics and sound of all mmo's.
________________________________
Oh my got!!! i neber see a graphic of this before, i neber p2p any game before, but this game i must! ________________________________
I was a closed beta tester for AoC and played it from launch up untill 2 months ago. I loved the Hyborian setting, the graphics and the combat system but I left because although the majority of people are happy about the upcomming changes to the game, I am of the complete oposite opinion. AoC was sold to me as a game where player skill was everything, gear did not matter. However, Funcom has caved to the demands of the WoW/EQ crowd who think that all MMO's have to be about grinding gear and raiding - NO THANKS! Any game that places an emphasis on gear over skill is a total no-no for me. What am I playing now? Well EVE for one, but then I have always had my EVE subscription running, even when I was testing and playing AoC. I also recently picked up The Chronicles of Spellborn. So far I am really enjoying TCoS, gear is just cosmetic but can be bolstered to stats of your liking by fitting different sigils, skills can also be boosted by fitting sigils which allows for very good customisation. The combat system is dynamic, different from AoC's but dynamic all the same. Dodging, targeting etc actually work, its not down to dice rolls. The graphics aren't as advanced as AoC's polygon count wise, but the artstyle is fantastic imho and the graphics themeselves are pretty decent. So to sum up, for me there are two better games on the market atm: 1. EVE (which means my opinion doesn't matter anyway ) 2. TCoS Remember these are only my opinions, and in no way am I saying AoC is a crap game. I think its a great game, I just don't like the direction that Funcom is taking it in.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
Cheers
I totally agree with you Guillermo. I prefer sandbox/skillbased systems for my MMO's rather than the class/level-based themepark type. The problem is that apart from EVE, there really isn't anything out there atm that offers this type of gameplay. Sure, there is Saga of Ryzom (which I played for a year under its previous ownership) and Darkfall (which I will never try, too much rampant hacking and exploiting for my liking), but thats about it.
Thankfully, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Mortal, and The Secret World are all going with the sandbox approach, so at least there will be more choice for us sandbox people.
The class/level-based themepark MMO that I'm currently playing alongside EVE (TCoS) does not have gear/faction grinds as endgame, so it is possible to build a themepark MMO without the usual boring gear treadmill. Wheather or not people will stay subscribed to the game after they have been at max level for a while still remains to be seen though, as the game is still pretty new.
Personally, I'll keep playing as long as I'm having FUN. Something that I think a lot of people have forgotten about in these games. So many people play to earn (lol) better gear and are always chasing the next shiny purple item. Whatever happened to playing a game for fun? It seems the majority of people these days think that if you aren't getting handed some new phat lewt every second day the game is not worth playing.
Case in point - AoC. The game started with a setup that I really liked, player skill meaning more than gear. Unfortunately now Funcom go and do a 180 and change the very premise of the original concept and make it about gear/loot just to satisfy the WoWified (new word) masses. The first warning sign for me was the PvP gear being implemented. What was wrong with PvPing to protect your keep, or to simply have FUN. But no, the gimmie, gimmie crowd wanted their rewards so they got them on a silver platter. The PvP gear doesn't even mean you are a good PvPer in this game, it just means that you farmed your friends at the rez point on White Sands Isle for a week... How lame, such a shame.
MMORPG History: Playing - EVE Online. Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion. Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9). Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
I was a closed beta tester for AoC and played it from launch up untill 2 months ago. I loved the Hyborian setting, the graphics and the combat system but I left because although the majority of people are happy about the upcomming changes to the game, I am of the complete oposite opinion. AoC was sold to me as a game where player skill was everything, gear did not matter. However, Funcom has caved to the demands of the WoW/EQ crowd who think that all MMO's have to be about grinding gear and raiding - NO THANKS! Any game that places an emphasis on gear over skill is a total no-no for me. What am I playing now? Well EVE for one, but then I have always had my EVE subscription running, even when I was testing and playing AoC. I also recently picked up The Chronicles of Spellborn. So far I am really enjoying TCoS, gear is just cosmetic but can be bolstered to stats of your liking by fitting different sigils, skills can also be boosted by fitting sigils which allows for very good customisation. The combat system is dynamic, different from AoC's but dynamic all the same. Dodging, targeting etc actually work, its not down to dice rolls. The graphics aren't as advanced as AoC's polygon count wise, but the artstyle is fantastic imho and the graphics themeselves are pretty decent. So to sum up, for me there are two better games on the market atm: 1. EVE (which means my opinion doesn't matter anyway ) 2. TCoS Remember these are only my opinions, and in no way am I saying AoC is a crap game. I think its a great game, I just don't like the direction that Funcom is taking it in.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
Cheers
I totally agree with you Guillermo. I prefer sandbox/skillbased systems for my MMO's rather than the class/level-based themepark type. The problem is that apart from EVE, there really isn't anything out there atm that offers this type of gameplay. Sure, there is Saga of Ryzom (which I played for a year under its previous ownership) and Darkfall (which I will never try, too much rampant hacking and exploiting for my liking), but thats about it.
Thankfully, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Mortal, and The Secret World are all going with the sandbox approach, so at least there will be more choice for us sandbox people.
The class/level-based themepark MMO that I'm currently playing alongside EVE (TCoS) does not have gear/faction grinds as endgame, so it is possible to build a themepark MMO without the usual boring gear treadmill. Wheather or not people will stay subscribed to the game after they have been at max level for a while still remains to be seen though, as the game is still pretty new.
Personally, I'll keep playing as long as I'm having FUN. Something that I think a lot of people have forgotten about in these games. So many people play to earn (lol) better gear and are always chasing the next shiny purple item. Whatever happened to playing a game for fun? It seems the majority of people these days think that if you aren't getting handed some new phat lewt every second day the game is not worth playing.
Case in point - AoC. The game started with a setup that I really liked, player skill meaning more than gear. Unfortunately now Funcom go and do a 180 and change the very premise of the original concept and make it about gear/loot just to satisfy the WoWified (new word) masses. The first warning sign for me was the PvP gear being implemented. What was wrong with PvPing to protect your keep, or to simply have FUN. But no, the gimmie, gimmie crowd wanted their rewards so they got them on a silver platter. The PvP gear doesn't even mean you are a good PvPer in this game, it just means that you farmed your friends at the rez point on White Sands Isle for a week... How lame, such a shame.
but doesnt gear matter in EvE too?
i dont like Funcom to make AoC revolve arround gear only, but as of now gear in AoC is useless and IS breaking the game.
also, not because some guys have found an exploit and are farming PvP xp and gear that we should make gear irrelevant, thats not a solution. a solution is to fix expoits not remove stuff from the game.
I was a closed beta tester for AoC and played it from launch up untill 2 months ago. I loved the Hyborian setting, the graphics and the combat system but I left because although the majority of people are happy about the upcomming changes to the game, I am of the complete oposite opinion. AoC was sold to me as a game where player skill was everything, gear did not matter. However, Funcom has caved to the demands of the WoW/EQ crowd who think that all MMO's have to be about grinding gear and raiding - NO THANKS! Any game that places an emphasis on gear over skill is a total no-no for me. What am I playing now? Well EVE for one, but then I have always had my EVE subscription running, even when I was testing and playing AoC. I also recently picked up The Chronicles of Spellborn. So far I am really enjoying TCoS, gear is just cosmetic but can be bolstered to stats of your liking by fitting different sigils, skills can also be boosted by fitting sigils which allows for very good customisation. The combat system is dynamic, different from AoC's but dynamic all the same. Dodging, targeting etc actually work, its not down to dice rolls. The graphics aren't as advanced as AoC's polygon count wise, but the artstyle is fantastic imho and the graphics themeselves are pretty decent. So to sum up, for me there are two better games on the market atm: 1. EVE (which means my opinion doesn't matter anyway ) 2. TCoS Remember these are only my opinions, and in no way am I saying AoC is a crap game. I think its a great game, I just don't like the direction that Funcom is taking it in.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
Cheers
I totally agree with you Guillermo. I prefer sandbox/skillbased systems for my MMO's rather than the class/level-based themepark type. The problem is that apart from EVE, there really isn't anything out there atm that offers this type of gameplay. Sure, there is Saga of Ryzom (which I played for a year under its previous ownership) and Darkfall (which I will never try, too much rampant hacking and exploiting for my liking), but thats about it.
Thankfully, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Mortal, and The Secret World are all going with the sandbox approach, so at least there will be more choice for us sandbox people.
The class/level-based themepark MMO that I'm currently playing alongside EVE (TCoS) does not have gear/faction grinds as endgame, so it is possible to build a themepark MMO without the usual boring gear treadmill. Wheather or not people will stay subscribed to the game after they have been at max level for a while still remains to be seen though, as the game is still pretty new.
Personally, I'll keep playing as long as I'm having FUN. Something that I think a lot of people have forgotten about in these games. So many people play to earn (lol) better gear and are always chasing the next shiny purple item. Whatever happened to playing a game for fun? It seems the majority of people these days think that if you aren't getting handed some new phat lewt every second day the game is not worth playing.
Case in point - AoC. The game started with a setup that I really liked, player skill meaning more than gear. Unfortunately now Funcom go and do a 180 and change the very premise of the original concept and make it about gear/loot just to satisfy the WoWified (new word) masses. The first warning sign for me was the PvP gear being implemented. What was wrong with PvPing to protect your keep, or to simply have FUN. But no, the gimmie, gimmie crowd wanted their rewards so they got them on a silver platter. The PvP gear doesn't even mean you are a good PvPer in this game, it just means that you farmed your friends at the rez point on White Sands Isle for a week... How lame, such a shame.
but doesnt gear matter in EvE too?
i dont like Funcom to make AoC revolve arround gear only, but as of now gear in AoC is useless and IS breaking the game.
also, not because some guys have found an exploit and are farming PvP xp and gear that we should make gear irrelevant, thats not a solution. a solution is to fix expoits not remove stuff from the game.
No, gear doesn't really matter in EVE. Your Skillpoints and and player skill matter a hell of a lot more than what type of ship you are flying. I'm a small ship specialist, the biggest thing I can fly proficiently is a HAC, I have no interest in Battleships and upwards. I prefer flying in Assualt Frigates and Interceptors than in anything else. I have taken down Battleships in AF's before. Hell, 3 one month old noobs in Rifters can take down a Battleship if they learn how to fly properly.
As for TCoS, it is a class/level themepark, but your gear doesn't mean squat. Sure you can adapt it with different sigils for differents effects, but the base armour/weapons are all the same, its only cosmetic. Two Wrathguards of the same level and skillset and with the same attribute setup will dish out and recieve exactly the same damage if their gear doesn't contain any sigils no matter if one of them is using a small dagger and the other is using a huge two-handed axe. Skills can be boosted with sigils as well as armour and weapons which allows for a huge variation in diffferent characters builds. Not to mention that two players of the same class may choose to learn completely different skills from their skillbooks in the first place.
And yes in your opinion, the gear in AoC is useless and is breaking the game, in my opinion the new, yet to be released gear is what has broke the game for me. Everyone has a different point of view.
And as for the PvP gear, I don't think it should be removed from the game, in my opinion it should never have been put into the game in the first place!
MMORPG History: Playing - EVE Online. Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion. Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9). Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
I was a closed beta tester for AoC and played it from launch up untill 2 months ago. I loved the Hyborian setting, the graphics and the combat system but I left because although the majority of people are happy about the upcomming changes to the game, I am of the complete oposite opinion. AoC was sold to me as a game where player skill was everything, gear did not matter. However, Funcom has caved to the demands of the WoW/EQ crowd who think that all MMO's have to be about grinding gear and raiding - NO THANKS! Any game that places an emphasis on gear over skill is a total no-no for me. What am I playing now? Well EVE for one, but then I have always had my EVE subscription running, even when I was testing and playing AoC. I also recently picked up The Chronicles of Spellborn. So far I am really enjoying TCoS, gear is just cosmetic but can be bolstered to stats of your liking by fitting different sigils, skills can also be boosted by fitting sigils which allows for very good customisation. The combat system is dynamic, different from AoC's but dynamic all the same. Dodging, targeting etc actually work, its not down to dice rolls. The graphics aren't as advanced as AoC's polygon count wise, but the artstyle is fantastic imho and the graphics themeselves are pretty decent. So to sum up, for me there are two better games on the market atm: 1. EVE (which means my opinion doesn't matter anyway ) 2. TCoS Remember these are only my opinions, and in no way am I saying AoC is a crap game. I think its a great game, I just don't like the direction that Funcom is taking it in.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
Cheers
I totally agree with you Guillermo. I prefer sandbox/skillbased systems for my MMO's rather than the class/level-based themepark type. The problem is that apart from EVE, there really isn't anything out there atm that offers this type of gameplay. Sure, there is Saga of Ryzom (which I played for a year under its previous ownership) and Darkfall (which I will never try, too much rampant hacking and exploiting for my liking), but thats about it.
Thankfully, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Mortal, and The Secret World are all going with the sandbox approach, so at least there will be more choice for us sandbox people.
The class/level-based themepark MMO that I'm currently playing alongside EVE (TCoS) does not have gear/faction grinds as endgame, so it is possible to build a themepark MMO without the usual boring gear treadmill. Wheather or not people will stay subscribed to the game after they have been at max level for a while still remains to be seen though, as the game is still pretty new.
Personally, I'll keep playing as long as I'm having FUN. Something that I think a lot of people have forgotten about in these games. So many people play to earn (lol) better gear and are always chasing the next shiny purple item. Whatever happened to playing a game for fun? It seems the majority of people these days think that if you aren't getting handed some new phat lewt every second day the game is not worth playing.
Case in point - AoC. The game started with a setup that I really liked, player skill meaning more than gear. Unfortunately now Funcom go and do a 180 and change the very premise of the original concept and make it about gear/loot just to satisfy the WoWified (new word) masses. The first warning sign for me was the PvP gear being implemented. What was wrong with PvPing to protect your keep, or to simply have FUN. But no, the gimmie, gimmie crowd wanted their rewards so they got them on a silver platter. The PvP gear doesn't even mean you are a good PvPer in this game, it just means that you farmed your friends at the rez point on White Sands Isle for a week... How lame, such a shame.
but doesnt gear matter in EvE too?
i dont like Funcom to make AoC revolve arround gear only, but as of now gear in AoC is useless and IS breaking the game.
also, not because some guys have found an exploit and are farming PvP xp and gear that we should make gear irrelevant, thats not a solution. a solution is to fix expoits not remove stuff from the game.
No, gear doesn't really matter in EVE. Your Skillpoints and and player skill matter a hell of a lot more than what type of ship you are flying. I'm a small ship specialist, the biggest thing I can fly proficiently is a HAC, I have no interest in Battleships and upwards. I prefer flying in Assualt Frigates and Interceptors than in anything else. I have taken down Battleships in AF's before. Hell, 3 one month old noobs in Rifters can take down a Battleship if they learn how to fly properly.
As for TCoS, it is a class/level themepark, but your gear doesn't mean squat. Sure you can adapt it with different sigils for differents effects, but the base armour/weapons are all the same, its only cosmetic. Two Wrathguards of the same level and skillset and with the same attribute setup will dish out and recieve exactly the same damage if their gear doesn't contain any sigils no matter if one of them is using a small dagger and the other is using a huge two-handed axe. Skills can be boosted with sigils as well as armour and weapons which allows for a huge variation in diffferent characters builds. Not to mention that two players of the same class may choose to learn completely different skills from their skillbooks in the first place.
And yes in your opinion, the gear in AoC is useless and is breaking the game, in my opinion the new, yet to be released gear is what has broke the game for me. Everyone has a different point of view.
And as for the PvP gear, I don't think it should be removed from the game, in my opinion it should never have been put into the game in the first place!
yes gear does really matter in EvE, a tech 2 ship is not a tech1 ship and good ammo makes a diffrence etc... gear is not all that matters in EvE but it does matter. yes you need skills to get good gear, but if gear was useless or didnt matter who would want to train skills?
we can have diffrent opinions on to what extent should gear matter vs skill matter, but in AoC a naked player can duel a full plate armor player with the same lvl without noticing the diffrence, and that is not opinion, that is clear evidence that the armor is useless.
Comments
AoC was a great game. I just found it very disappointing that the fixes and changes made to the game had little to do with the end game content. I know few generations of players that have quit the game because they reached end game and had nothing else to do. There is only so many times you can run Onyx chambers and Kashetta runs. Outside of the few raid zones, there wasn't much to do. Also at the time, there was a huge imbalance in crafted armor and gems that there wasn't even much point to raid.
When we did raid, it was definitely a fun time, but even those were completed in due time. AoC was a great game, I just think it's downfall is it's lack of content and tailoring to the wrong level ranges. Even with mentors and what not, content is just to small.
One thing AoC definitely is, is that it is beautiful game!
More photos on my old guild website!
http://blackthrone.guildportal.com
I didn't read the whole thread, but I'll give you my input. I think Guild Wars is a much better game. The biggest issue I have with guild wars is that it is incredibly instanced, but since AoC is nearly the same way, they cancel out. Beyond that, Guild Wars is a MUCH better game than AoC, from the skill system, to the PvE content, to the PvP action.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
There are a few things that hold the game back from being truly great, despite some of it's brilliant concepts.
1 - PVP implementation : As of now, despite the best efforts of the development team; most pvp takes place in the level 80 zone Kheshatta. People running around, tethering guards around in order to kill players in order to grind pvp exp. A much, much, MUCH larger effort needs to be made to funnel PVP in the border kingdoms. Lootable resources are a good start, but there needs to be more incentive for both the average and circle jerked player to play in the border kingdoms at level 80. Capturable towers have been suggested for smaller guilds; but I feel more can be done here. If there's a free, no man's land zone where guilds constantly struggle for supremacy, you're going to notice a big dip in the growing retention... Also it would be fun.
2 - Combat system : Yes, sorry. I know there are a lot of people out there who think they are such giant heroes because they mastered this convoluted mess of a system. Yes, I commend you for mastering it; but it is weighed down by many poor design choices that make it not only daunting to the... "bads" out there, but highly annoying for the returning customers. Here is a sub list of my complaints about PVP combat at level 80.
*1* - Most every class requiring an absurd amount of micromanagement : At level 80 melee class (to be successful) is required to use... (base keys)
5 directional attack keys
2 Potions
7 Hot keys, right off the bat for doing regular attacks at potions. Here's a fun idea! Get rid of the potions as they are now. They are a pointless money sink and they only serve to complicate things.
5 directional attacks? Pointless. Three is fine. The lower right and lower left do nothing but add meaningless complication to an already active battle system.
*2* Combo animations and keypresses
The dev team about 6 months ago shortened all combos and allowed damage calculation to be applied right away, this was a good step but it does little about what Im referring to. The combo animations are still far too long. Meaning you have to time combos in a way that allows them to fire off and do damage, even while you're opponent is far away. Not only does this lend a mucky feeling to combat, but it's profoundly stupid looking. Combo animations of all types should be lowered, in my opinion.
*3* ridiculous excess of abilities
5 Directional attacks, and 2 potions. The 7 we went over earlier are compounded by the ridiculous amount of activated abilities each character must use to be effective.
As a typical level 80 barbarian, you must Have...
Left Attack
Middle Attack
Right attack
Lower Right Attack
Lower Left attack
Hp Potion
Stamina Potion
Weapon Swap Key
Cyclone of steel #
Cyclone of Steel #
Clobber 2
Stun Punch
Earthshatter
Impale
Spirit of the Panther
Armageddon falls
Excellent Balance
Escape Artist
Unstable Mind
No Escape
Haste
Second Wind
*Blitz* (Post Patch)
Im sure I even missed some, but I think that's enough. Even with my N52 and my Logitech G7, Im hard pressed to fit everything.
Personally, I'd rather see more emphasis on the movement system, and aiming your blows properly instead of memorizing a long list of redundant and unimaginative abilities.
I like your style!
For me AoC can never be a good game because of two things:
1. It is a fragmented world remiscent of old PC RPG games like Might and Magic where every area was like a level in Doom. It is not a world like in WOW where I can ride from Booty Bay to the Plague Lands without a loading screen. Its just a collection of area connected by loading screens. If this is the price of amazing graphics then I do not want to pay it.
2. Too much instancing. Even those little fragments of Hyboria are all instanced. Again, for me this is a deal breaker.
This game reminds me of Guild Wars. A good game, not an RPG.
---------------------------------------------------------
Never argue with idiots. They are immune to logic.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
Cheers
LogothX has very good arguments here. I would also like to comment on the matter.
about pvp implimentation, people go to kheshatta for a reason, all the 75+ quest are there. even if you are not looking for leveling/quests since you are looking for pvp you know there are ppl there. They have to add similar places where people can quest or pvpers can get better rewards.
i agree about the amount of micromanagement needed. As a bearshaman i have lots of counters against various attacks but micromanaging them on 1v1 requires a better player than me. This also creates an awkvard situation. If they nerf the class, normal players dont have a chance with the class, if they boost, good players become invincible. I dont think reducing 2 directional attacks can solve the problem though, its just 2 buttons, problem at hand is bigger than that. What i think is, i dont know if it can be done though, create something like mortal combat combo system. granted ppl will have to memorize the combos but using them for a time we already know what to press. By removing the combo starters we free alot of hotkey slots. I dont know if this thing can be implimented though. the game will have to keep track of your previous attacks this way.
I dont think removing potions is a good idea, pve side of the game depends too much on it for solo non-helaer class players.
2 cents
I need more vespene gas.
Well written, couldn't agree with you more.
________________________________
Oh my got!!!
i neber see a graphic of this before,
i neber p2p any game before, but this game i must!
________________________________
Well written, couldn't agree with you more.
Well i couldn't disagree more.
There is no game that does not have loading screens, even WoW has them, when you go from continent to continent. Tell me a game that doesnt have any, i mean any, loading screens and then you have a point.
Even Eve, a great game, has to load each time you jump from a system to another.
The instancing in AOC has been brought to my attention(in game) only once in the nearly one year i have been playing. That was when i joined a group in the same zone as i was and could not see them on the map, this was remedied in about 2 mintues when i jumped to their instance. Oh and by the way i am sure every one knows that EQ2 has the same model of instancing!?!
So from my experience "Too Much Instancing" does not apply in the slightest.
The tilte of this thread is "Whats out thats better than AoC? " and i am yet to see one post telling us what game and why it is better than AOC?!?!
Well i couldn't disagree more.
There is no game that does not have loading screens, even WoW has them, when you go from continent to continent. Tell me a game that doesnt have any, i mean any, loading screens and then you have a point.
Even Eve, a great game, has to load each time you jump from a system to another.
Of course all games have loading screens but I don't know any MMO that has as much as AoC. Just look at Tortage. You get a freaking loading screen every time you get inside a small house! Difference with loading screens in WoW and AoC is like night and day.
Maybe loading screens are not a big problem for you, but for many people this is a HUGE problem because it totally kills immersion, and an MMO without immersion is not a very good MMO.
QBERT????
Well written, couldn't agree with you more.
Well i couldn't disagree more.
There is no game that does not have loading screens, even WoW has them, when you go from continent to continent. Tell me a game that doesnt have any, i mean any, loading screens and then you have a point.
Even Eve, a great game, has to load each time you jump from a system to another.
The instancing in AOC has been brought to my attention(in game) only once in the nearly one year i have been playing. That was when i joined a group in the same zone as i was and could not see them on the map, this was remedied in about 2 mintues when i jumped to their instance. Oh and by the way i am sure every one knows that EQ2 has the same model of instancing!?!
So from my experience "Too Much Instancing" does not apply in the slightest.
The tilte of this thread is "Whats out thats better than AoC? " and i am yet to see one post telling us what game and why it is better than AOC?!?!
You don't see the instancing because no one is really playing the game anymore. But I recall the 'good old days' of release when my server would have 13 instances of Tortage alone, and even some of the internal dungeons in that zone had 6 or 7.
I forget its name, but there was one dungeon in Tortage that had multiple instances inside, and you could use those to your advantage to avoid gankers.
As for not seeing people posting whats better than AOC and why, the OP said don't tell him about EVE/LotRO because he hated them, and many folks here would say they both clearly better than AOC, in their opinion.
As someone else mentioned, better is defined by what you prefer, so no one can really point out a better game. WOW could be better, its certainly more popular. Runes of Magic could be better, at least I'm enjoying it now more than I did when I played AOC.
EQ2, DF, WAR all have fans who will tell you their game is better, because it has X, Y, Z features which is something they look for in the games they play.
Again, all subjective opinion. So in the end, the OP is really just a troll thread meant to provoke a response. That's fine, I love posting in them, but lets see it for what it is. The OP isn't really looking for enlightenment, he just wanted to pick a fight.
Which is what these forums are best at.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Underhalls is the name of the dungeon you talk about in Tortage.
Well I like Eve and play it, i also think WoW is an excellent game, although i am tired of it. AoC has moved far from the early days of bugs, lack of content and performance issues, even though it still has instancing.
As you say Kyleran, everyone likes the game they play and ultimately that's why they play it lol.
I personally like AoC but i dont say or think it is better than any other game out there, it my current flavour and i enjoy it.
My point is that AoC can now hold its own amongst other quality titles, even though it still needs more work.
Well i couldn't disagree more.
There is no game that does not have loading screens, even WoW has them, when you go from continent to continent. Tell me a game that doesnt have any, i mean any, loading screens and then you have a point.
Even Eve, a great game, has to load each time you jump from a system to another.
Of course all games have loading screens but I don't know any MMO that has as much as AoC. Just look at Tortage. You get a freaking loading screen every time you get inside a small house! Difference with loading screens in WoW and AoC is like night and day.
Maybe loading screens are not a big problem for you, but for many people this is a HUGE problem because it totally kills immersion, and an MMO without immersion is not a very good MMO.
also you dont know of any mmo who has graphics as half good as AoC.
also you dont know of any mmo who has graphics as half good as AoC.
LOTRO, Vanguard, they are more than half as good as graphics.
also you dont know of any mmo who has graphics as half good as AoC.
LOTRO, Vanguard, they are more than half as good as graphics.
yeah maybe smthn like 56% as good...
Lotro has very good graphics but again you have that cartoony look and the performance is hitchy, vanguard os very hitchy and to me the world is just to big , i really get bored just wandering around without purpose. AOC has the best graphics hannds down I dont even see an argument there, The performance is now very good and there is very little hitching.
I know people tend to hate it on these forums, but there is no MMORPG with more content and polish than World of Warcraft.
If you can get over the cartoony graphics, you may enjoy it quite a bit. I did for over 4 years.
i think eve is at least 10X better than WoW, and it has serious non cartoony gfx
I think Tibia has the best graphics and sound of all mmo's.
________________________________
Oh my got!!!
i neber see a graphic of this before,
i neber p2p any game before, but this game i must!
________________________________
Pretty much anything.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
Cheers
I totally agree with you Guillermo. I prefer sandbox/skillbased systems for my MMO's rather than the class/level-based themepark type. The problem is that apart from EVE, there really isn't anything out there atm that offers this type of gameplay. Sure, there is Saga of Ryzom (which I played for a year under its previous ownership) and Darkfall (which I will never try, too much rampant hacking and exploiting for my liking), but thats about it.
Thankfully, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Mortal, and The Secret World are all going with the sandbox approach, so at least there will be more choice for us sandbox people.
The class/level-based themepark MMO that I'm currently playing alongside EVE (TCoS) does not have gear/faction grinds as endgame, so it is possible to build a themepark MMO without the usual boring gear treadmill. Wheather or not people will stay subscribed to the game after they have been at max level for a while still remains to be seen though, as the game is still pretty new.
Personally, I'll keep playing as long as I'm having FUN. Something that I think a lot of people have forgotten about in these games. So many people play to earn (lol) better gear and are always chasing the next shiny purple item. Whatever happened to playing a game for fun? It seems the majority of people these days think that if you aren't getting handed some new phat lewt every second day the game is not worth playing.
Case in point - AoC. The game started with a setup that I really liked, player skill meaning more than gear. Unfortunately now Funcom go and do a 180 and change the very premise of the original concept and make it about gear/loot just to satisfy the WoWified (new word) masses. The first warning sign for me was the PvP gear being implemented. What was wrong with PvPing to protect your keep, or to simply have FUN. But no, the gimmie, gimmie crowd wanted their rewards so they got them on a silver platter. The PvP gear doesn't even mean you are a good PvPer in this game, it just means that you farmed your friends at the rez point on White Sands Isle for a week... How lame, such a shame.
MMORPG History:
Playing - EVE Online.
Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion.
Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9).
Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
Cheers
I totally agree with you Guillermo. I prefer sandbox/skillbased systems for my MMO's rather than the class/level-based themepark type. The problem is that apart from EVE, there really isn't anything out there atm that offers this type of gameplay. Sure, there is Saga of Ryzom (which I played for a year under its previous ownership) and Darkfall (which I will never try, too much rampant hacking and exploiting for my liking), but thats about it.
Thankfully, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Mortal, and The Secret World are all going with the sandbox approach, so at least there will be more choice for us sandbox people.
The class/level-based themepark MMO that I'm currently playing alongside EVE (TCoS) does not have gear/faction grinds as endgame, so it is possible to build a themepark MMO without the usual boring gear treadmill. Wheather or not people will stay subscribed to the game after they have been at max level for a while still remains to be seen though, as the game is still pretty new.
Personally, I'll keep playing as long as I'm having FUN. Something that I think a lot of people have forgotten about in these games. So many people play to earn (lol) better gear and are always chasing the next shiny purple item. Whatever happened to playing a game for fun? It seems the majority of people these days think that if you aren't getting handed some new phat lewt every second day the game is not worth playing.
Case in point - AoC. The game started with a setup that I really liked, player skill meaning more than gear. Unfortunately now Funcom go and do a 180 and change the very premise of the original concept and make it about gear/loot just to satisfy the WoWified (new word) masses. The first warning sign for me was the PvP gear being implemented. What was wrong with PvPing to protect your keep, or to simply have FUN. But no, the gimmie, gimmie crowd wanted their rewards so they got them on a silver platter. The PvP gear doesn't even mean you are a good PvPer in this game, it just means that you farmed your friends at the rez point on White Sands Isle for a week... How lame, such a shame.
but doesnt gear matter in EvE too?
i dont like Funcom to make AoC revolve arround gear only, but as of now gear in AoC is useless and IS breaking the game.
also, not because some guys have found an exploit and are farming PvP xp and gear that we should make gear irrelevant, thats not a solution. a solution is to fix expoits not remove stuff from the game.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
Cheers
I totally agree with you Guillermo. I prefer sandbox/skillbased systems for my MMO's rather than the class/level-based themepark type. The problem is that apart from EVE, there really isn't anything out there atm that offers this type of gameplay. Sure, there is Saga of Ryzom (which I played for a year under its previous ownership) and Darkfall (which I will never try, too much rampant hacking and exploiting for my liking), but thats about it.
Thankfully, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Mortal, and The Secret World are all going with the sandbox approach, so at least there will be more choice for us sandbox people.
The class/level-based themepark MMO that I'm currently playing alongside EVE (TCoS) does not have gear/faction grinds as endgame, so it is possible to build a themepark MMO without the usual boring gear treadmill. Wheather or not people will stay subscribed to the game after they have been at max level for a while still remains to be seen though, as the game is still pretty new.
Personally, I'll keep playing as long as I'm having FUN. Something that I think a lot of people have forgotten about in these games. So many people play to earn (lol) better gear and are always chasing the next shiny purple item. Whatever happened to playing a game for fun? It seems the majority of people these days think that if you aren't getting handed some new phat lewt every second day the game is not worth playing.
Case in point - AoC. The game started with a setup that I really liked, player skill meaning more than gear. Unfortunately now Funcom go and do a 180 and change the very premise of the original concept and make it about gear/loot just to satisfy the WoWified (new word) masses. The first warning sign for me was the PvP gear being implemented. What was wrong with PvPing to protect your keep, or to simply have FUN. But no, the gimmie, gimmie crowd wanted their rewards so they got them on a silver platter. The PvP gear doesn't even mean you are a good PvPer in this game, it just means that you farmed your friends at the rez point on White Sands Isle for a week... How lame, such a shame.
but doesnt gear matter in EvE too?
i dont like Funcom to make AoC revolve arround gear only, but as of now gear in AoC is useless and IS breaking the game.
also, not because some guys have found an exploit and are farming PvP xp and gear that we should make gear irrelevant, thats not a solution. a solution is to fix expoits not remove stuff from the game.
No, gear doesn't really matter in EVE. Your Skillpoints and and player skill matter a hell of a lot more than what type of ship you are flying. I'm a small ship specialist, the biggest thing I can fly proficiently is a HAC, I have no interest in Battleships and upwards. I prefer flying in Assualt Frigates and Interceptors than in anything else. I have taken down Battleships in AF's before. Hell, 3 one month old noobs in Rifters can take down a Battleship if they learn how to fly properly.
As for TCoS, it is a class/level themepark, but your gear doesn't mean squat. Sure you can adapt it with different sigils for differents effects, but the base armour/weapons are all the same, its only cosmetic. Two Wrathguards of the same level and skillset and with the same attribute setup will dish out and recieve exactly the same damage if their gear doesn't contain any sigils no matter if one of them is using a small dagger and the other is using a huge two-handed axe. Skills can be boosted with sigils as well as armour and weapons which allows for a huge variation in diffferent characters builds. Not to mention that two players of the same class may choose to learn completely different skills from their skillbooks in the first place.
And yes in your opinion, the gear in AoC is useless and is breaking the game, in my opinion the new, yet to be released gear is what has broke the game for me. Everyone has a different point of view.
And as for the PvP gear, I don't think it should be removed from the game, in my opinion it should never have been put into the game in the first place!
MMORPG History:
Playing - EVE Online.
Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion.
Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9).
Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
What you are saying here is correct. But that is a problem ALL Level/Class based MMO's have.
They all have the gear / faction grind as endgame. Because it's the only way for these types of MMO's to provide longterm gameplay in form of these timesinks.
I think that's why you now FINALLY see developers waking up and letting go of the level/class based system.
Earthrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and The Secret World.
All these upcoming MMO's go for the more sandboxy approach (altho Fallen Earth goes for a mixed approach of level / skill based).
Sandbox games without levels, without classes doesn't only give ultimate freedom for the player, but also for the developer when it comes to creating content and gameplay.
Cheers
I totally agree with you Guillermo. I prefer sandbox/skillbased systems for my MMO's rather than the class/level-based themepark type. The problem is that apart from EVE, there really isn't anything out there atm that offers this type of gameplay. Sure, there is Saga of Ryzom (which I played for a year under its previous ownership) and Darkfall (which I will never try, too much rampant hacking and exploiting for my liking), but thats about it.
Thankfully, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Mortal, and The Secret World are all going with the sandbox approach, so at least there will be more choice for us sandbox people.
The class/level-based themepark MMO that I'm currently playing alongside EVE (TCoS) does not have gear/faction grinds as endgame, so it is possible to build a themepark MMO without the usual boring gear treadmill. Wheather or not people will stay subscribed to the game after they have been at max level for a while still remains to be seen though, as the game is still pretty new.
Personally, I'll keep playing as long as I'm having FUN. Something that I think a lot of people have forgotten about in these games. So many people play to earn (lol) better gear and are always chasing the next shiny purple item. Whatever happened to playing a game for fun? It seems the majority of people these days think that if you aren't getting handed some new phat lewt every second day the game is not worth playing.
Case in point - AoC. The game started with a setup that I really liked, player skill meaning more than gear. Unfortunately now Funcom go and do a 180 and change the very premise of the original concept and make it about gear/loot just to satisfy the WoWified (new word) masses. The first warning sign for me was the PvP gear being implemented. What was wrong with PvPing to protect your keep, or to simply have FUN. But no, the gimmie, gimmie crowd wanted their rewards so they got them on a silver platter. The PvP gear doesn't even mean you are a good PvPer in this game, it just means that you farmed your friends at the rez point on White Sands Isle for a week... How lame, such a shame.
but doesnt gear matter in EvE too?
i dont like Funcom to make AoC revolve arround gear only, but as of now gear in AoC is useless and IS breaking the game.
also, not because some guys have found an exploit and are farming PvP xp and gear that we should make gear irrelevant, thats not a solution. a solution is to fix expoits not remove stuff from the game.
No, gear doesn't really matter in EVE. Your Skillpoints and and player skill matter a hell of a lot more than what type of ship you are flying. I'm a small ship specialist, the biggest thing I can fly proficiently is a HAC, I have no interest in Battleships and upwards. I prefer flying in Assualt Frigates and Interceptors than in anything else. I have taken down Battleships in AF's before. Hell, 3 one month old noobs in Rifters can take down a Battleship if they learn how to fly properly.
As for TCoS, it is a class/level themepark, but your gear doesn't mean squat. Sure you can adapt it with different sigils for differents effects, but the base armour/weapons are all the same, its only cosmetic. Two Wrathguards of the same level and skillset and with the same attribute setup will dish out and recieve exactly the same damage if their gear doesn't contain any sigils no matter if one of them is using a small dagger and the other is using a huge two-handed axe. Skills can be boosted with sigils as well as armour and weapons which allows for a huge variation in diffferent characters builds. Not to mention that two players of the same class may choose to learn completely different skills from their skillbooks in the first place.
And yes in your opinion, the gear in AoC is useless and is breaking the game, in my opinion the new, yet to be released gear is what has broke the game for me. Everyone has a different point of view.
And as for the PvP gear, I don't think it should be removed from the game, in my opinion it should never have been put into the game in the first place!
yes gear does really matter in EvE, a tech 2 ship is not a tech1 ship and good ammo makes a diffrence etc... gear is not all that matters in EvE but it does matter. yes you need skills to get good gear, but if gear was useless or didnt matter who would want to train skills?
we can have diffrent opinions on to what extent should gear matter vs skill matter, but in AoC a naked player can duel a full plate armor player with the same lvl without noticing the diffrence, and that is not opinion, that is clear evidence that the armor is useless.