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I am not making a MMOG or MOVW anymore. - Here is why
demc
Member Posts: 292
I came to a decision today that making a MMOG or MOVW such as Whren is just not going to happen. I decided to post my reasons though so you can understand where I am going and why I chose to Axe this project as a MMOG.
Lack of money.
It takes a lot of investment to make a game, not just a MMOG, but a game. The software needed to do a quality and fast game can cost as high as a quarter million dollars. The amount of investment for license to run all the forms of software are so costly only AAA companies can buy it. One can use free software but then that brings it to reason two
Not enough time.
Time is not on my side in this lifetime anymore to make all the programming that would be required to even come close to what is already there. Having to write all the quests, guild management, crafting city building, combat, etc takes a massive amount of time. Even with a team of 100 volunteers I doubt we would be able to get much more than a working alpha by 2013. Of course there be exceptions but then your better off going back and playing the old EQ, DAoC and UO
Why would anyone take 5 to 7 years to develop something old with a new twist?
My ideas are good IMO but probably not what you would want. No leveling, No skillups, Pick your skills enter the world and have fun is not what most MMOG players want evidently so why bother taking the time to add this stuff. Why bother making factions, multi-outcome quests where the world reacts to you and not you react to it? Leave it as it is, was and will always be. I mean I got better things to do with my life than make a MMOG just to get blasted that it is not good enough, is solo, is not solo, needs this feature or needs that feature.
It will never make it good enough.
I am not an artist in the sense that a MMOG needs artists. I work at a different level of art and with a different paint brush. My brush makes fractal terrains, and l-system procedural plants. I don't have all the plants in the following pictures. These pictures are two year ago and I have much much better now. The world are no longer 2048x2048 but are 1 to 16 giga-pixel. The old machine was a 1.8 Ghz with 1 gig ram and a shitty FX5200 but even then I was running over 50 frames a sec on these.
I love walking through the world and take hours to explore it. They are fun and interesting. I even write stories about adventures I have there. I though they make wonderful MMOG quest lines. I can walk on the moon and fly back to earth. I can see the peak of a mountain and climb the mountain and look at the awesome view. With the sun moving and the sound of the wind it is more immerse than any MMOG I ever played. The only time I can hear the wind is when I have my headset on and volume full blast. The only time I can hear a bird sing or rustle of tree leaves too. As I get better with my brush and I can add the tress and plants, the weather system, animals and roads. My world will become even more immerse. BUT.. It will never be good enough for you. You will find the flaws and problems and complain about the world being to big, to small or some where in between.
I decided today that I am going to put these worlds online and let others like me enjoy them without having to buy a subscription. No need to make a MMOG or MOVW. NO need to be bothered with all the negative. Only people that want to immerse themselves in a world like this need to buy it. I come out ahead then because I don't take years to develop something no one wanted anyway.
Cheers,
D
Comments
WoW, Demc. I can't say as I blame you. I hope you'll find a way to apply your ideas and talents to MMOs in other ways in the future. It's obvious you're passionate about this genre we all love to hate so much
All the best!
Making a MMO is not the path to quick riches, it is the path to pain, suffering, and regret. You can't find a more fickle playerbase, and one more saturated with so many options that even the new and dynamic is lost in a sea of mediocracy.
Save yourself a lot of trouble and just make an iPhone app
.
Darn, I was so heavily invested in anticipation for your MMO.
My post in the `most radical mmo` thread were all in fun. You have some good ideas and I would like to encourage you to move forward on them. Developing a MMO single-handedly takes ballz and theres a sh!tload of work to do. But, your further ahead if you have anything playable. You have a greater opportunity to raise a quarter mil with a prototype without AAA graphics, then without a prototype at all.
I'm also programming-centric and not super talented with 2D/3D art so, I'm developing my MMO Client with plenty of ugly graphics and audio placeholders. Yes, its gonna take another 5 years for me to complete this MMO. Completing such an endeavor speaks for its self. As I told others, I'm developing this MMO for myself and if others want to join in coolbeans. Some people write books about their lives. I write games.
good luck
There is a desire in many players to make their own MMO. HOwever, anyone who actually sits down and tries to actually make one will get smacked hard with the reality stick. Large multi-million dollar companies make these games for a reason..it takes a lot of manpowerr and a lot of money.
Best thing we can hope for is that someone creates a decent MMO shell, that someone or a small group can easily customize to become thier own. Similar to what happened with MUds/MUSH, etc
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Sorry Techlord but I don't see reason to make a game no one wants.
You read it here over and over, “I won't support a half baked released game anymore.”, “If the game is not perfect, I won't play it.”, I won't play without this feature.”, I won't play with this feature.”
How can one guy by himself ever make a perfect MMOG?
How can a AAA mainstream make a perfect MMOG?
Back in January I already came to that conclusion but I tried to look past it. That is why I deleted the entire project tree, a 200 page novel, 150 page design document and hundreds of hours of programming. I was a fool to be lead on to believing I could make it and I should have turned and walked away from it then.
I can make worlds that people can buy and explore and I can churn them out at one and two a month and make a decent profit to keep my site up. I am not in it for money. I am in it for the love of gaming and sharing these worlds with others. With 28 years of programming experience, I can then make features to the worlds that go beyond gaming.
NO, I leave MMOG and MOVW to the future young developers but I hope I plant a seed that grows and they do it.
D
I have never even heard of you. Whatever seed you planted didn't take root.
Ok, OP, I'm attempting to read your words and understand them, but there seems to be too much contradictory information in the post for me to make much sense out of anything other than that you're frustrated from spending too much time in these forums, which could happen to anybody.
My advice:
1) Go back and read some of your previous posts about optimism, e.g. what you wrote 2 days ago.
2) The most important person to please is yourself. Do what you love, and to hell with the bitter, cynical, mostly nonsensical people in here. Most of them are not sincere, and if you don't love what you produce, you shouldn't expect anyone else to.
3) Stay out of these forums if you want to maintain any sort of rational perspective on your project or life in general.
That is precisely the problem: a "new twist."
WE WANT A NEW WORLD AND INNOVATION . . . NOT A "NEW TWIST"
Developers THINK we want a "new twist" when we want a "new world" and "new features."
What people are complaining about is not that the released MMO's today are not perfect. Then you missed our points entirely which is not surprising since you seem to be on the other side of the fence. Let me try and clarify it for you.
1. We do not want a product that promises content to be in the game on the box when we buy it. Then install it to see the feature is not there at all, which we will either have to wait anywhere from 6 months to a year to ..never because the company has decided to go in another direction. If a company is going to advertise features on their website and on the box as part of the game. Have it part of the game. Anything else is false advertising.
2. We do not want game breaking bugs that makes us lose exp, levels or gear into thin air etc. Gamebreaking bugs is what most people quit games over. Not graphic glitches or missing quest NPC's or getting stuck at times etc. Most gamers i know can deal with bugs to a certain point. It's when a game becomes unplayable out of sheer frustration people quit. That can be anything for badly supported hardware to having your super rare sword of e-peen completely vanish without the possibility of getting it replaced. If i get a crash every 10 minutes or have to relog every hour because of memory leaks people are only going to put up with it for so long. Paying 50 bucks for such a product is unacceptable.
3. We want decent support. Not automated responses from a pre-scripted handbook that 9 times out of 10 doesn't fit the current problem. Support that is willing to work with the customer and not against.
Those are the top 3 concerns as i understand them and 100% agree with. It's not that we expect a 100% flawless game because i think most of us know that is nearly impossible. We want what was promised. We want the top concerns IE bugs fixed which the beta testers have been posting about instead of being completely ignored.
If you can live up to those things then don't let a forum stop you from your passion. If you feel you don't owe anything to your potential customers then you should quit. We don't need another Bill Roper trying to pull a fast one just for the sake of easy cash.
The future young developers will most likely do exactly what you and techlord are doing, and they won't get anywhere either.
Techlord is a programmer with ugly graphics. You make pretty terrains but cannot code.
Let us know when you two figure this one out.
Yes, working with others means having to *gasp* compromise on some of your design ideas. However, biting the bullet and working with others could also mean that in a few years we'll have an MMO where a player could go out to his patio and listen to the wind blow through his landscaped garden as he works with a few other players to construct their new modular vehicle.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
lol
I have to say your response was cynical and acerbic ...but also true and funny
I've also never heard of him
"after the time of dice came the day of mice "
demc, don't give up! If this is a project you truely believe in then find a way to make it happen! Who cares how many people end up playing it! If you give up then you will never have the chance to see what it could have become. I believe its people like me and you who are the future of this genre. Big AAA companies have shareholders breathing down their backs to get a game released so they stick to what have already been done because they know it will work. But people like us have nothing but our dreams, desires, goals, and love of the genre. We are the ones willing to try new things even if it doesn't work.
Company Owner
MMO Interactive
You're doomed to misery because you're trying to do everything. Focus on something you're good at and enjoy. You mention fractal terrain, well, many cheaper engines lack tools for world generation.
Keep working on your game dude. Don't let me dishearten you. I decided to make something else because it WILL be different than a MMOG. Eventually maybe I get around to putting something online but maybe not. If it does come out as a online it will be a total sandbox with no avatar and they have tio make their own or have an artist make it. If they want anything they are going to have to build it themselves and/or program it themselves.
I've been toying with the idea of designing and eventually developing an MMO for years now.
I have a tons of notebooks full of notes and ideas that I have added over the years, for things that "work" and even things that don't "work" in an mmo. All of us kind of have that "If I had the chance the create an mmo....." mindset in us, in one way or another. My problem with my project is slightly different than the ops. I feel like I have ideas that would turn things around. I feel like I have things to put in a game, that aren't nessacerily "ground breaking", but are things that I and others have always commented on as being fun. Gamers are looking for "different" while at the same time I believe they are looking for "familiar" all rolled into one. My problem is.. I'm just a designer with some artistic ability. I don't have any programming knowledge or 3d modelling experience. I would need a team to even get a prototype off the ground. Everything would have to be a labor or love and work similar to how it does in the music industry. You might have to do some work for free in order to get your foot in the proverbial door. The problem is finding people with the skillset that don't mind doing this, and don't mind helping you run with your vision.
On that note, I don't want to quit. I don't want to give up on something that I believe in. Thats why I am still pushing and looking for this. If you know of anyone who can program, or do 3d modeling/animation.. I want to make this happen. We need someone from the "inside" to create a game for our community. The big companies will sit around and tell you that "hey, we are mmo players" but the games speak for themselves. They are creating the games for the $$$ not the player. I want to change that.. and I believe in doing that the $$$ will be there in the end.
Gamers want to be apart of the design, and the development as much as they want to play the final product.. I want to give them that.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Sorry Techlord but I don't see reason to make a game no one wants.
You read it here over and over, “I won't support a half baked released game anymore.”, “If the game is not perfect, I won't play it.”, I won't play without this feature.”, I won't play with this feature.”
How can one guy by himself ever make a perfect MMOG?
How can a AAA mainstream make a perfect MMOG?
Back in January I already came to that conclusion but I tried to look past it. That is why I deleted the entire project tree, a 200 page novel, 150 page design document and hundreds of hours of programming. I was a fool to be lead on to believing I could make it and I should have turned and walked away from it then.
I can make worlds that people can buy and explore and I can churn them out at one and two a month and make a decent profit to keep my site up. I am not in it for money. I am in it for the love of gaming and sharing these worlds with others. With 28 years of programming experience, I can then make features to the worlds that go beyond gaming.
NO, I leave MMOG and MOVW to the future young developers but I hope I plant a seed that grows and they do it.
D
How can one guy by himself ever make a perfect MMOG? If he makes it for himself! Even teams of professional coders and artist can't satisfy everyone. Ultimately, my point is you're making a game that YOU want and it will be the perfect MMOG for YOU. It is extremely difficult for me to believe that you would delete the entire project tree, a 200 page novel, 150 page design document and hundreds of hours of programming. Sorry, but I have to wonder if you posted for sympathy? After all the negativity on these forums did you honestly expect any? With this thread you've only planted a seed of doubt. The punk ass naysayers were right. YOU can't build a MMOG or MOVW. Instead of clicking the delete button, you should have flip them the bird and kept truckin.
For over 20 years I've developed 3D FPS Engines as a hobby, develop websites commercially, and played all forms of RPG: PnP, MUDs, CRPGs, MMOs . Developing this game draws upon all of my web & gaming experience and is a natural state of progression for me. Just like my other games, I don't expect the game to appeal to anyone but myself. Unlike many wannabe nerds that come here, developing games is my entertainment.
If you can settle with making worlds that people can buy and explore and churn out at one and two a month, make a decent profit to keep a site up you found yourself a niche after all. Congratulations. But I can assure you that if you're in it for the love of gaming and sharing these worlds with others then you will never rest, until you create that MMOG/MOVW.
I truly wish you best of luck on your endeavors. I'm scratching `demc` off the Solo MMO Developer roster. Only 6 names remain. LOL.
What the heck is a MOVW?? Massive online volkswagen?? lol
I'd be willing to bet there's a lot more. People are just sane enough to keep their mouth shut.
Quote: "Don't tell anyone you're going to write a book, excercise, or quit smoking. They'll encourage you to death". -by "I forgot"
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Okay, let me see if I can help a little bit here for people who want to make a game without huge amounts of time and cost that people actually want play.
First, stop trying to build the largest landmass possible. While it's great to feel epic, it's not required. Vanguard ran into this problem of having a huge epic sized world, but very little of it playable. Exploring is great if there is something to explore, but a great empty expanse means little.
Second, think in terms of true roleplaying with real roleplayers. This seems to fly in the face of many MMORPG players who can go through content at lightspeed, but therein lies the problem. You spend years making a game and content that they consume in a matter of months then demand more immediately. No company has that kind of resources outside of Blizzard and even they can't get it out fast enough for the power players. Roleplayers just need the tools to roleplay with. They can provide many of the storylines for themselves. The bonus is that roleplayers are more loyal to a game and will stay much longer.
Third, add storylines not quests. If you add some open ended storylines, have GMs participate in them to make them more interactive, you will gain a following so fast it would make your head spin. You will have to install some pieces of the storyline that don't require GM participation all the time. Think of cameos and people showing up at certain times in the storyline until it's time to have the final climax. Some MUDs have been the most successful at this.
Fourth, make the game skill based and less level based. I find that with levels, people are constantly trying to get that next level. Heck, do away with levels of any kind, even skills. Have them seek trainers to train certain skills, keep the skills hidden from the player (can't see that I have 78.2 in a certain skill, just that I'm pretty good at it), then have players have to actually use different tactics with different mobs. One of the best games I played did this and it worked very well.
Fifth, have base professions, but allow some flexibility. Have each profession allow them to skill up primary skills faster and have other skills much harder to level up since it's not part of their chosen profession.
Lastly, use tools that don't require huge investments. People used to create very good 24/7 MMORPGs with Neverwinter Nights. BioWare is about to come out with DragonAge that will do what NWN did but even better. It was amazing how many people made custom addons to the game so you could continue to expand the game fairly easily. Then you can concentrate on the roleplaying and gameplay, not the minitua of a plant placement.
I played in a 24/7 NWN world that was restricted to only 13 levels (since it was based on D&D, it had to be levels). It wasn't that big, but it was very well done. They had events on a fairly regular basis and it kept people involved for a very long time. Absentee GMs will kill a game like this fast. While it was never 'huge', it was poplulated by very strong and very loyal players.
One of the requirements you'll need is a lot of volunteers, especially as GMs. There is no way one person can do this. Since you are not trying to do it for profit, this shouldn't be much of a problem really. There are tons of people who feel the way you do and want to be a part of creating an MMO. They have time on their hands and want to help, so take advantage of it.
If you decided you don't want to do it anymore, I completely understand. Hopefully this will help a few future MMO designers out there. No one should try to make the perfect MMO or compete with WoW. It's just not possible. Just stick to your vision, keep it small to begin with and most of all... have fun.
I would guess it stands for Massive Online Virtual World.
The OP of this thread has inspired me.
I'm going to be trying to build a team soon for an MMO project.
updates to come soon.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
This is exactly why I would never even try a project with the scope of a MMO, SPRPG or any game with a scope like the graphicly supercharged games we have today. I have mostly developed very targeted business software for specific clients thus far and have only recently looked into making a few games. I've been thinking about making puzzle games like Luxor, Bejeweled and Zuma as they are really the only type of games with a reasonably small enough scope for a single developer to accomplish that would still sell in today's market. I just need to come up with a winning idea for a game at this point... That is the truly hard part but one will come to me in time.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Trying to do anything outside of this scope would be silly without a team of people to work with. Thats what teams are for.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Trying to do anything outside of this scope would be silly without a team of people to work with. Thats what teams are for.
I think that's pretty much what I just said... lol
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}