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Penny Arcade comic : Homosexuality in Star Wars: The Old Republic
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It doesn't matter if its business decision or bad forum management it reflect social ideas and misconceptions and we should express our opinion about it.
Arguments like "As with any other group of gamers who think theyir special needs aren't being serviced and are more important than the majority's" and "create your own game then" are not only simplistics but full of preconceptions.
This is not about developers decisions, it is common to see homosexual characters in asian games, Age of Conan has gay characters, EQ2 has a bit of homosexualism in some events...
You should informe yourself about this subject before use the " go create your own game then" cliche.
...
"It doesn't matter if its business decision"? Lol, my friend, that is the only thing that matters in this game. If you disagree, then I submit that you are the one who needs to get informed, or at least wake up to reality. Honestly no one cares if you're homosexual, they really don't. What they care about is do you fork over your monthly fee like everyone else. If the lack of certain content is unappealing to you, you have two choices: continue playing for the things you do enjoy, or quit. Or I guess you have a third choice: come to the boards and get dramatic, but that just makes you look silly and provides me with a cure for late-night boredom.
It really isn't as complex as you and others are trying to make it. Its purely economics, and the sooner you realize that and stop trying to be 'equal,' the sooner you'll enjoy yourself a bit more. Equality is a myth, not just for homosexuals, but for everyone. Wake up.
Sexuality IS part of someone´s identity, sexuality is not only related to coitus an what you do with your body.
You showed ignorance expressing that everyone who understand this issue is homosexual and is trying to draw attention.
When Bioware decided to label words like lesbian, gay and homosexual as insults and filter it they start to feed the ignorance and misconceptions of people who use this words as insult.
Please do yourself a favor, try to informe yourself about identity, sexuality and human behavior.
...
"center stage"
Hes not asking for center stage, hes asking for equal rights.
LOL come on...
Having the word "gay" on a privately owned forum filtered out isn't infringing on anyones rights. Quit whining about things just for the sake of whining.
You're right, it doesn't infringe upon any rights, but it is offensive. Imagine how you'd feel if some essential part of your identity was flagged as an offensive word?
There is no reason the words 'gay' and 'lesbian' need to be filtered as vulgarity. If the makers of any MMO want to say "hey, we don't like homo's so we're filtering out those words from our site" that would at least be honest. But I'm willing to wager that the creators of SW:TOR don't have an anti-gay bias, thus the filtering of these words are merely offensive and ignorant.
How is it offensive? The people at Bioware decided to filter a word that is often used as a derogatory slander from their forums. There is nothing offensive about it. Grow a damn skin, and stop trying to draw attention on yourselves because you are "unique".
Sexuality isn't an identity, no matter how hard some people push to make it one.
Sexuality is definitely an identity. Its just that being straight is such the entrenched majority, most fail to see or notice its expression in almost everything we say or do.
Its offensive because Bioware chooses to accept only the derogatory intent. The word itself isn't derogatory, its merely often used in a derogatory way. That people choose to use it in a derogatory fashion shouldn't be the determining factor in its exclusion.
It has nothing to do with being 'unique' it has more to do with gaining acceptance. If it was about being unique gay people would, I imagine, support anything that marginalizes them.
Sexuality is only an identity for those that push it to be an identity, for what reason I'm not quite sure(or are those lisps that magically appear natural?). It's just another case of someone or a group of people taking something that they deem makes them unique, and pushing it on everyone else as a defining characteristic of themselves.
If it is only used in a derogatory sense, then what would they address other uses for? What could you possibly need to use the words gay or lesbian for on a Star Wars MMO forum? There is nothing offensive about it. People just like to go out of their way to find something to whine about.
You sir are sounding very bigoted, I have a friend who happens to lisp and is straight...
What are you trying to say here that everyone who wants to identify themselves as Gay is lisping?
How amazingly shallow and short sighted of you. I'm sure people with a speech impediment are greatful they're grouped together with homosexuals so readily. Lets just rob everyone of their identity and just group everyone together!
The main focus I think should be why did they not allow the word "lesbian" I've never heard anyone use the word "lesbian" in a negative way.
"Thats so Lesbian" Never heard it.
The exclusion of this word sorta leans towards bigotry.
I could possibly care less about sexual orientation in video games. It is, however, pretty sad to see homosexuals pushing their agenda on video game producers/developers - if you want to play games that deal solely with sexual orientation, then there are numerous "adult" games out there for you. You don't have to come trolling along to make a name for a cause that lacks the gravity to matter to 90%+ of Americans (and people of other nations). Instead, we see the "gay issue" waste space in our politics, pushing aside important things like the War in Iraq. Yes, the people who voted back in 2004 (I believe) cared more for the "gay issue" than for Iraq/Afghanistan, or even national security. Now we're going to see the same ruckus in video game production - forgive me if I'm not overjoyed by this.
"center stage"
Hes not asking for center stage, hes asking for equal rights.
LOL come on...
Having the word "gay" on a privately owned forum filtered out isn't infringing on anyones rights. Quit whining about things just for the sake of whining.
You're right, it doesn't infringe upon any rights, but it is offensive. Imagine how you'd feel if some essential part of your identity was flagged as an offensive word?
There is no reason the words 'gay' and 'lesbian' need to be filtered as vulgarity. If the makers of any MMO want to say "hey, we don't like homo's so we're filtering out those words from our site" that would at least be honest. But I'm willing to wager that the creators of SW:TOR don't have an anti-gay bias, thus the filtering of these words are merely offensive and ignorant.
How is it offensive? The people at Bioware decided to filter a word that is often used as a derogatory slander from their forums. There is nothing offensive about it. Grow a damn skin, and stop trying to draw attention on yourselves because you are "unique".
Sexuality isn't an identity, no matter how hard some people push to make it one.
Sexuality is definitely an identity. Its just that being straight is such the entrenched majority, most fail to see or notice its expression in almost everything we say or do.
Its offensive because Bioware chooses to accept only the derogatory intent. The word itself isn't derogatory, its merely often used in a derogatory way. That people choose to use it in a derogatory fashion shouldn't be the determining factor in its exclusion.
It has nothing to do with being 'unique' it has more to do with gaining acceptance. If it was about being unique gay people would, I imagine, support anything that marginalizes them.
Sexuality is only an identity for those that push it to be an identity, for what reason I'm not quite sure(or are those lisps that magically appear natural?). It's just another case of someone or a group of people taking something that they deem makes them unique, and pushing it on everyone else as a defining characteristic of themselves.
If it is only used in a derogatory sense, then what would they address other uses for? What could you possibly need to use the words gay or lesbian for on a Star Wars MMO forum? There is nothing offensive about it. People just like to go out of their way to find something to whine about.
You sir are sounding very bigoted, I have a friend who happens to lisp and is straight...
What are you trying to say here that everyone who wants to identify themselves as Gay is lisping?
How amazingly shallow and short sighted of you. I'm sure people with a speech impediment are greatful they're grouped together with homosexuals so readily. Lets just rob everyone of their identity and just group everyone together!
The main focus I think should be why did they not allow the word "lesbian" I've never heard anyone use the word "lesbian" in a negative way.
"Thats so Lesbian" Never heard it.
The exclusion of this word sorta leans towards bigotry.
Go re-read what I said again. My comment about lisps was directed at the gay folks that "magically" develop one when they come out of the closet. That is trying to push an identity of yourself. A large amount of gay people I see act in ways that aren't natural, but are simply putting on a show to push their identity further. It is painfully obvious. Speech impetements and abnormally high voices don't just happen one day, people are usually born with such conditions. "Suddenly" showing such behaviors is an act. That was the point I was making.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
"center stage"
Hes not asking for center stage, hes asking for equal rights.
LOL come on...
Having the word "gay" on a privately owned forum filtered out isn't infringing on anyones rights. Quit whining about things just for the sake of whining.
You're right, it doesn't infringe upon any rights, but it is offensive. Imagine how you'd feel if some essential part of your identity was flagged as an offensive word?
There is no reason the words 'gay' and 'lesbian' need to be filtered as vulgarity. If the makers of any MMO want to say "hey, we don't like homo's so we're filtering out those words from our site" that would at least be honest. But I'm willing to wager that the creators of SW:TOR don't have an anti-gay bias, thus the filtering of these words are merely offensive and ignorant.
How is it offensive? The people at Bioware decided to filter a word that is often used as a derogatory slander from their forums. There is nothing offensive about it. Grow a damn skin, and stop trying to draw attention on yourselves because you are "unique".
Sexuality isn't an identity, no matter how hard some people push to make it one.
Sexuality is definitely an identity. Its just that being straight is such the entrenched majority, most fail to see or notice its expression in almost everything we say or do.
Its offensive because Bioware chooses to accept only the derogatory intent. The word itself isn't derogatory, its merely often used in a derogatory way. That people choose to use it in a derogatory fashion shouldn't be the determining factor in its exclusion.
It has nothing to do with being 'unique' it has more to do with gaining acceptance. If it was about being unique gay people would, I imagine, support anything that marginalizes them.
Sexuality is only an identity for those that push it to be an identity, for what reason I'm not quite sure(or are those lisps that magically appear natural?). It's just another case of someone or a group of people taking something that they deem makes them unique, and pushing it on everyone else as a defining characteristic of themselves.
If it is only used in a derogatory sense, then what would they address other uses for? What could you possibly need to use the words gay or lesbian for on a Star Wars MMO forum? There is nothing offensive about it. People just like to go out of their way to find something to whine about.
You sir are sounding very bigoted, I have a friend who happens to lisp and is straight...
What are you trying to say here that everyone who wants to identify themselves as Gay is lisping?
How amazingly shallow and short sighted of you. I'm sure people with a speech impediment are greatful they're grouped together with homosexuals so readily. Lets just rob everyone of their identity and just group everyone together!
The main focus I think should be why did they not allow the word "lesbian" I've never heard anyone use the word "lesbian" in a negative way.
"Thats so Lesbian" Never heard it.
The exclusion of this word sorta leans towards bigotry.
Go re-read what I said again. My comment about lisps was directed at the gay folks that "magically" develop one when they come out of the closet. That is trying to push an identity of yourself. A large amount of gay people I see act in ways that aren't natural, but are simply putting on a show to push their identity further. It is painfully obvious. Speech impetements and abnormally high voices don't just happen one day, people are usually born with such conditions. "Suddenly" showing such behaviors is an act. That was the point I was making.
Abrahmm is right on this one.
Sexual orientation as an "identity" is bullshit. It's like everyone with red colored hair splitting off from the rest of the pack in order to advocate their cause for... red hair-ness. People advertise/over-exaggerate certain qualities in order to get attention nowadays - that's an immediate result of our "politically correct" society.
It doesn't matter if its business decision or bad forum management it reflect social ideas and misconceptions and we should express our opinion about it.
Arguments like "As with any other group of gamers who think theyir special needs aren't being serviced and are more important than the majority's" and "create your own game then" are not only simplistics but full of preconceptions.
This is not about developers decisions, it is common to see homosexual characters in asian games, Age of Conan has gay characters, EQ2 has a bit of homosexualism in some events...
You should informe yourself about this subject before use the " go create your own game then" cliche.
...
"It doesn't matter if its business decision"? Lol, my friend, that is the only thing that matters in this game. If you disagree, then I submit that you are the one who needs to get informed, or at least wake up to reality.
This is not about the game.
Honestly no one cares if you're homosexual, they really don't. What they care about is do you fork over your monthly fee like everyone else. If the lack of certain content is unappealing to you, you have two choices: continue playing for the things you do enjoy, or quit. Or I guess you have a third choice: come to the boards and get dramatic, but that just makes you look silly and provides me with a cure for late-night boredom.
It really isn't as complex as you and others are trying to make it. Its purely economics, and the sooner you realize that and stop trying to be 'equal,' the sooner you'll enjoy yourself a bit more. Equality is a myth, not just for homosexuals, but for everyone. Wake up.
Lack of certain content? This is not the issue here...
I am not trying to be equal, as I said , this is not about me, you don´t need to be homosexual to understand the issue, but it seems you just want to "win" a discussion that is not even the subject here.
Veritas, it seems you like the "wake up" cliche, but it doesn't make your argument more valid, trust me, you didn´t understood what this subject is about.
Two questions about 'equal time romance storylines' based on game design:
1. Would you be willing to accept a delay in the launch of a game due to the need to write, code and test double the amount of "relationship options" in the game. Assuming you have a storyline where you date someone, make them fall for you and marry you you're talking at least 6 branches for the story (Date yes/no, falls in love yes/no, married yes/no). Add in Male + Male and you're at 12 branches, add in Female + Female and you're at 18 branches. That's a considerable amount of extra work, three times as many things that can do wrong now. Is that worth it for an NPC driven "equality" storyline?
2. Would you be willing to accept a simple cut/paste version of the romance or would you want more? I'm guessing no one would be happy with a "she" = "he" edit of the in game text of a story. Would you want entirely different in game activities, dialog or paths to romance based upon a M/M or F/F type relationship? Seems to me at least that it would more than triple the amount of work based upon a M/F romance path since instead of one story minorly tweaked you'd have 3 stories drastically tweaked.
It's all well and good to want to have a romance path in a game you're looking for appeal to your tastes, but there's a lot of extra work that would have to go into designing that. Technology , content and art asset wise. Some other features would have to be cut for this amount of content to be added. Is it worth it? What would you be willing to give up in game to accommodate the extra content required?
Everything you said you can say about heterosexual men too.
Unatural act, louder lower voice drinking beer and trying to show his menhood watching sports, but in his intimicy he is a person, not just a masculine cliche, same happens with homosexuals.
Sexuality is a huge part of social behavior, the heterosexual "cliche" is just maybe more normal to you.
...
... hmm, this remind me of Age of Conan.
At the beginning of Tortage you have to free a girl, she wil flirt with male and female characters, I wonder if the same people who are offended by gay aspects in forums and games were offended by this detail in AOC too...
...
... hmm, this remind me of Age of Conan.
At the beginning of Tortage you have to free a girl, she wil flirt with male and female characters, I wonder if the same people who are offended by gay aspects in forums and games were offended by this detail in AOC too...
...
In modern society gays are seen as repugnant, while lesbians are seen as hot. Not that I agree with this ( okay, I do think lesbians are hot ), but that is the common association nowadays.
For the record, I just started playing Enchanted Arms on Xbox 360. The first thing that hit me was that one of my main characters is gay, and it is to me so offensive as to make me stop playing the game before it even really begins. However, it is not offensive because the character is gay.
Rather, it is offensive because the character is so heavily stereotyped it's ridiculous. Including high tone of speech, over exagerrated feminine actions and gestures while all the time expressing his love for my other male character ( who appears to be straight ) in just about every damn dialog, giving him the stereotypical appearance of the pushy closet queen who believes everyone is gay and just doesn't know it yet.
Personally, if I were gay, I'd be writing a very angry letter to Ubisoft for their depiction of a gay man. Frankly, as a heterosexual, i am still seriously considering writing one on behalf of the homosexual community.
... hmm, this remind me of Age of Conan.
At the beginning of Tortage you have to free a girl, she wil flirt with male and female characters, I wonder if the same people who are offended by gay aspects in forums and games were offended by this detail in AOC too...
...
In modern society gays are seen as repugnant, while lesbians are seen as hot. Not that I agree with this ( okay, I do think lesbians are hot ), but that is the common association nowadays.
For the record, I just started playing Enchanted Arms on Xbox 360. The first thing that hit me was that one of my main characters is gay, and it is to me so offensive as to make me stop playing the game before it even really begins. However, it is not offensive because the character is gay.
Rather, it is offensive because the character is so heavily stereotyped it's ridiculous. Including high tone of speech, over exagerrated feminine actions and gestures while all the time expressing his love for my other male character ( who appears to be straight ) in just about every damn dialog, giving him the stereotypical appearance of the pushy closet queen who believes everyone is gay and just doesn't know it yet.
Personally, if I were gay, I'd be writing a very angry letter to Ubisoft for their depiction of a gay man. Frankly, as a heterosexual, i am still seriously considering writing one on behalf of the homosexual community.
I can be wrong, but I think Ubisoft was the publisher, the game was produced by From Software a japanese company.
In Japan this kind of gay image is not repulsive, personally I think this character was a nice addition to Enchanted Arms.
Gay characters are common in asian games, do you remember Final Fight (old arcade game)? Poison is a shemale, "she" is not a girl.
Poison
You really belive only 5% is homosexual? Forget about statistics and use your own life experience, do you really belive only 5%?
A lot of people hide bi/homosexual desires from others and from themselves.
Sex is present in MMOs and in everything with human touch, there is sex in quests, armors, emotes, voice chat and texts, even some creatures are sexual.
There are heterosexual expressions all over MMOs, why not a bit of homosexualism too?
If you think sex in MMOs is equal to cybering, you should pay more atention to details.
...
Wow, did you even think before you posted this? So, just becuz the census data doesnt show that gays are 10% of the population you refuse to accept it. Wow. Thats as bad as a evangilical refusing to believe that the earth is millions of years old after seeing study after study of peer reviewed science.
Lets go with life experience then, in my whole family, I have only 1 gay person in it. In my company, counting all the people in the 3 buildings, only 1 gay person. Going thru high school, I knew only 1 gay person that attended and 1 who came out fo the closet a few years later after a friend found his stash of gay porn. Then while in the Army, none. In college, had none in my classes.
So yeah, no more than 5% seems about right to me, a bit high for my sample though.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
The reviewer has a mishapen head
Which means his opinion is skewed
...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
So basically:
If Bioware leaves the word "gay" uncensored in the forums and then a bunch of homosexuals decide to rant and rave because Bioware won't stop the abundance of offensive insults brought about by children saying "that's gay, dude.", then Bioware is being insensitive to the homosexuals.
If Bioware censors the word "gay" in the forums, in order to prevent the inevitable flood of /petitions by people offended by certain uses of the word, then Bioware is bigoted against homosexual men.
Is this about the way it boils down?
It's no wonder I consider 90% of humanity a waste of valuable real estate.
Lugal, I just made you a question, do you really need to be offensive?
See, sexual preferences go beyond what is openly said, just think about it.
Comparing a census to logical scientific researches is not accurate especially when it is related to "taboos".
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You are just thinking about extremes wisebutcruel, Bioware´s forums can be edited just like MMORPG.com forums when someone is offensive, there is no need to categorize gay/lesbian/homosexual as profanity,
...
Well said!
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
And I can show another sample that there is alot more than 10%. What was your point with your sample?
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
You are just thinking about extremes wisebutcruel, Bioware´s forums can be edited just like MMORPG.com forums when someone is offensive, there is no need to categorize gay/lesbian/homosexual as profanity,
...
I am thinking in extremes, yes. However, when you combine the already oft times volotile nature of mmo gamers in general on both message boards and in ingame chat, then couple that with the homosexual vs. straight rights "agenda" ( which is already showing itself more and more in just this thread ), I not only expect extremes from both sides, but I have moved my monitor 12" further from myself as to avoid the inevitable shrapnel from the first mortar shells.
You are just thinking about extremes wisebutcruel, Bioware´s forums can be edited just like MMORPG.com forums when someone is offensive, there is no need to categorize gay/lesbian/homosexual as profanity,
...
Editing forums is a lose/lose proposition. People constantly complain about both being edited and the things that aren't edited. If you don't filter hot words your moderators spend all their time making judgement calls on things trhat don't belong in the forums in the first place. Sexual orientation isn't an issue in Star Wars. Their hang up was incest.
Hey, if Leia was my sister, I'd still have to think about it.......unless she was in the Jabba slave outfit. In that case, just consider me a damned soul, 'cause that bird is mine.
But if sexual orientation and sexual identity are not issues in SW, do you think words like lesbian/gay/homosexual should be prohibited?
....
But if sexual orientation and sexual identity are not issues in SW, do you think words like lesbian/gay/homosexual should be prohibited?
....
On the ToR forums? Hells yeah! it's got bugger all to do with the purpose of the forums. There's no legitimate context for the words.
Over in SWG thier are even gay weddings, been to a few, thiers nothing weird about them, from what Ive read in this thread thiers alot of people with issues about thier own sexuality. If you cant handle a few gay players you really need to take a deep look at your own sexual orientation. And perhaps read up on repression.
QFT since this is basically exactly what I said....
This wasn't about gay behavior in game or sexuality ingame. It was about *WORDS* on a forum. The company was trying to be sensitive and "PC" in a slightly clueless fashion and as usual all the "cause chasers" have piled on them. The initial response was an over-reaction to a minor decision by Bioware and no amount of righteous cause-thumping fueled by some of the ignorance and prejudice dragged into this thread changes that.
I'm ok with Bioware censoring "gay" on their forums and I think their intentions were clearly good. It's a shame that the word is most often used in a derogatory fashion but it is, and treating it as a profanity (i.e. blocking it) is sensible.
But I agree with those wanting to see homosexuality in mmos. It's not bringing sex or politics into games - it's just realistic and also long overdue.
For a long time computer gamers have been seen as the kind of people who would be offended by representations of homosexuality in games... yet it didn't hurt hugely successful games like The Sims or Fable.
I think the proportion of the gaming community who would have a problem with homosexual NPCs in an mmo is tiny, loud though they may be.
"center stage"
Hes not asking for center stage, hes asking for equal rights.
LOL come on...
Having the word "gay" on a privately owned forum filtered out isn't infringing on anyones rights. Quit whining about things just for the sake of whining.
You're right, it doesn't infringe upon any rights, but it is offensive. Imagine how you'd feel if some essential part of your identity was flagged as an offensive word?
There is no reason the words 'gay' and 'lesbian' need to be filtered as vulgarity. If the makers of any MMO want to say "hey, we don't like homo's so we're filtering out those words from our site" that would at least be honest. But I'm willing to wager that the creators of SW:TOR don't have an anti-gay bias, thus the filtering of these words are merely offensive and ignorant.
How is it offensive? The people at Bioware decided to filter a word that is often used as a derogatory slander from their forums. There is nothing offensive about it. Grow a damn skin, and stop trying to draw attention on yourselves because you are "unique".
Sexuality isn't an identity, no matter how hard some people push to make it one.
Sexuality is definitely an identity. Its just that being straight is such the entrenched majority, most fail to see or notice its expression in almost everything we say or do.
Its offensive because Bioware chooses to accept only the derogatory intent. The word itself isn't derogatory, its merely often used in a derogatory way. That people choose to use it in a derogatory fashion shouldn't be the determining factor in its exclusion.
It has nothing to do with being 'unique' it has more to do with gaining acceptance. If it was about being unique gay people would, I imagine, support anything that marginalizes them.
Sexuality is only an identity for those that push it to be an identity, for what reason I'm not quite sure(or are those lisps that magically appear natural?). It's just another case of someone or a group of people taking something that they deem makes them unique, and pushing it on everyone else as a defining characteristic of themselves.
If it is only used in a derogatory sense, then what would they address other uses for? What could you possibly need to use the words gay or lesbian for on a Star Wars MMO forum? There is nothing offensive about it. People just like to go out of their way to find something to whine about.
You're a bit confused. Adopting a lisp is an affectation. Being attracted to people of the same gender as yourself is an intrinsic part of your identity.
Also I didn't say it was used ONLY in a derogatory tone. It merely often is. Bioware is perfectly capable of filtering people who are being insulting rather than just using words that they consider offensive. Forums do it all the time. Someone flames or goes way off topic mods step in all the time, regardless of the actual words used.