Originally posted by CazNeerg You gave me some information I didn't have. Thank you. The last time I spent any significant amount of time in WoW it *was* the case that, compared to raid loot, the non-raid loot was pretty much crap. I was unaware that steps had been taken to address the problem. That being said, if, as you say, the removal of superior rewards would eliminate raiding as a playstyle, perhaps that means it *should* be eliminated. My original argument was based on the premise that people should not have to adopt a playstyle they don't enjoy in order to get the best rewards. If the only reason people raid is because they get the best rewards, not because they actually *enjoy* the raids, then we should get rid of the raids and move the rewards to the playstyles that people do enjoy on their own merits. If I am misreading your argument, and people do enjoy raids for the experience itself, then they shouldn't need better rewards in order to raid, they should only need the satisfaction of enjoying the experience. One thing a lot of people playing online games seem to forget is that they are games. If you are spending any significant amount of time doing things you don't enjoy in a game, it might be time to rethink your priorities. I am beginning to wonder if "uber loot" is just another way that developers try to gloss over bad writing and failure to provide scenarios which are engaging on their own merits.
Many people enjoy raiding and the rewards are the carrot to chase. That is just how most mmos are currently designed and that applies to solo play just as much as it does raiding as you can see by your own desire to have the best rewards.
Why should the rewards be removed from raids? Lets apply that same line of thinking to dungeons, group encounters, chain quests, reputation work, faction, trade skills and leveling all together. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't enjoy or have time for those activities. We can remove the rewards from everything outside of solo play, but that doesn't mean there is a problem. MMOs are designed as gear chases and removing the rewards from activites doesn't prove there was some problem to be fixed.
If you moved all of the best rewards in the game [or just copied them] and put them in soloable quests, that is what the bulk of players would do all day long. The majority of players gravitate towards the path of least resistance. That is just the way it is, because most mmos center around players advancing their avatars. If there is nothing to advance avatars in a certain activity, then most players will ignore it. Not all, but most. Without the reward why take the risk?
What you are proposing is a very narrow view of something that is basically designed to work in your favor of gaining rewards and in turn painting something you don't enjoy or have time to enjoy as problematic. It doesn't solve a problem and it effectively eliminates playstyles of others just to cater to someone else. Blizzard has taken a number of positive steps to open the end game rewards to the majority of the playerbase. that has been their strength for so long, they cater to many and somehow do a good job of it.
From heroic dugeon badges, pvp season rewards, token, badge, arena whatever, 10 man raid mirrors of 25 man raid content, etc. There are multiple avenues for different playstyles. You no longer need to join a 40 man raid or a 25 man raid.
Many people enjoy raiding and the rewards are the carrot to chase. That is just how most mmos are currently designed and that applies to solo play just as much as it does raiding as you can see by your own desire to have the best rewards. Why should the rewards be removed from raids? Lets apply that same line of thinking to dungeons, group encounters, chain quests, reputation work, faction, trade skills and leveling all together. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't enjoy or have time for those activities. We can remove the rewards from everything outside of solo play, but that doesn't mean there is a problem. MMOs are designed as gear chases and removing the rewards from activites doesn't prove there was some problem to be fixed. If you moved all of the best rewards in the game [or just copied them] and put them in soloable quests, that is what the bulk of players would do all day long. The majority of players gravitate towards the path of least resistance. That is just the way it is, because most mmos center around players advancing their avatars. If there is nothing to advance avatars in a certain activity, then most players will ignore it. Not all, but most. Without the reward why take the risk? What you are proposing is a very narrow view of something that is basically designed to work in your favor of gaining rewards and in turn painting something you don't enjoy or have time to enjoy as problematic. It doesn't solve a problem and it effectively eliminates playstyles of others just to cater to someone else. Blizzard has taken a number of positive steps to open the end game rewards to the majority of the playerbase. that has been their strength for so long, they cater to many and somehow do a good job of it. From heroic dugeon badges, pvp season rewards, token, badge, arena whatever, 10 man raid mirrors of 25 man raid content, etc. There are multiple avenues for different playstyles. You no longer need to join a 40 man raid or a 25 man raid.
Like I said before, I am only speaking against the idea that a game which has chosen to support multiple play styles should be designed in a way that in order to be "successful" you have to go outside your play style and spend substantial amount of times doing something you don't enjoy. Ultimately, games are supposed to be about fun. I never said that I personally wanted to get the best rewards, it was more of a philosophical standpoint. I really don't care about the rewards, I haven't done PvP since they lobotomized Alterac Valley and took most of the fun out it, solo PvE has never been hard, and I have never had the slightest desire to go on a raid. I play games for story, character development, and immersion, not "uber loot." I am not proposing eliminating raids because I don't enjoy them. I only proposed that *if* no substantial number of people enjoy something, it shouldn't be left in the game solely to keep them on a treadmill and generate money for the company. If they want more money, they should add more *enjoyable* content, not trick weak-willed addicts into wasting their life away doing things they don't even enjoy.
Again, all I am doing is arguing that a game should be fun and enjoyable. Obviously the root problem isn't Blizzard, they are doing what works, as is clear from their financial success. The root problem is people getting obsessively serious about a game, to the point where they treat it like a job and stop having fun, while often not even pausing to think long enough to realize they aren't having fun. As for the people who actually enjoy raids, more power to them. I really wish they did it for me, Blizzard has made enough of them that I wouldn't have to keep spending money trying to find games with a plot.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I bet if you put some effort into networking with players around your playtime you could put together a raid for an hour or two for how ever many days a week you chose. There are plenty of people with wide open schedules, with alts, casual playtimes like yourself, etc that would most likely jump on the chance to raid in your time slot. I'm not talking about spamming trade channel for pug players, but put a post up on your guild forum or server forum. When you group with people in dungeons see if the would be interested and write their names down. There is almost always a pug raid after a wintergrasp victory that needs more people, etc. The opportunities are out there if people put in the effort.
An hour or two is plenty of time to raid and get the same rewards as anyone else. My casual 10 man raid already has a specific 1 hour raid night where we clear the first 3 encounters in ulduar. This lets us spend our 3 hour raid night just on progression with other encounters. It didn't take to long to get to the point of clearing naxx in one 3 hour night and I suspect ulduar will turn into the same thing in the coming months.
I think the real problem with the casual crowd that is upset that they "cannot" raid is that there is noone to do the organization and have something ready to jump right into. That is not meant as an insult. Facts of life are that some people are leaders and some are followers.
I see your point. And you are right. If I did take some time to put together a nice like of friends from people I do other group content, before long I would have a huge list to take from. I guess, then, for me it does come down to feeling like it takes more time than an hour or two. I really haven't done any raids in quite a few years and from what I understand (and what you've just said too!) is that it no longer takes three to four hours to do a single raid. I don't agree that it has anything to do with organization. I guess if I really wanted to raid that bad, I would be working on networking and getting more people.
I think the biggest problem is the "casuals" who demand the same rewards to easier content. Like I said, I would love to get the best gear from just grouping (or crafting), but there does need to be an acheivement for raiding. Something tangible is best (raid treadmill agrument aside), and gear fills this void (especially after you've hit max level). I completely agree that the "hardcore" raiders need better gear for their work (but at the same time dislike how it denys other people from joining a raid because...as someone else said... their gear "isn't good enough".).
I think we can all agree that it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" catch-22 situation. But I think, honestly, that WoW does a great job balancing small group content with large group content, and solo content. There is enough of everything that should keep the majority happy (and, let's be honest, has for a while considering thir massive subscriber numbers).
It is, though, difficult to find a guild sometimes that will accept "casuals" but still has enough people to throw together a raid at odd hours (well, it used to be, like I said I haven't worried about raiding so much. I am an altaholic).
I'm not sure it is a catch 22 at all. Maybe you get denied access to joining a hardcore raiding guild, but there are plenty of casual guilds and pugs to join and they are really successful. It doesn't take much work to run 5 man dungeons to get some gear to be decently equiped enough for raid zones. That is part of the progression in mmos and people should put a little effort into the task.
I just don't see anyone denied access to anything. Raiding in wow now is far more friendly than it was in the original release ane even burning crusade. The barriers have mostly been removed.
Originally posted by dinurium I do not play wow. I have not been on any raids obviously. Casual gamers ,like myself, cant do raids for a number of reasons. One is they cannot adhere to a gaming schedule. Meaning, they cannot be at their PC for 5 pm tuesday. They have a job, wife, kids, friends, social obligations etc. They are frequent afkers His wife might call him away from the keyboard every 20 minutes. Their kids might cry. Their dog might of just pissed on the sofa. They cannot commit to being at the keyboard at that crucial raid moment. Simply, they just dont have the time. Maybe they cant play for an hour or two or 3. I do not think the most uber content should only be raid attainable for these reasons and more. I pay money. I dont say dont raid. I might even keep my sub as long as a raider because it takes me longer to hit max level. Why not give me the best loots too and make the raid more about badass content. In other words make the gear equal, regardless if its top tier crafted or top tier quested.
And then he said! let their be light! Coudn't have said it better! That's not the only reason I don't play wow but its in my top 100 reasons!
I do not play wow. I have not been on any raids obviously. Casual gamers ,like myself, cant do raids for a number of reasons. One is they cannot adhere to a gaming schedule. Meaning, they cannot be at their PC for 5 pm tuesday. They have a job, wife, kids, friends, social obligations etc. They are frequent afkers His wife might call him away from the keyboard every 20 minutes. Their kids might cry. Their dog might of just pissed on the sofa. They cannot commit to being at the keyboard at that crucial raid moment. Simply, they just dont have the time. Maybe they cant play for an hour or two or 3. I do not think the most uber content should only be raid attainable for these reasons and more. I pay money. I dont say dont raid. I might even keep my sub as long as a raider because it takes me longer to hit max level. Why not give me the best loots too and make the raid more about badass content. In other words make the gear equal, regardless if its top tier crafted or top tier quested.
Funny, I've raided with people with kids, jobs, mortgages, social lives. Some even played sport. Its rubbish that all these "casual" players have such rock'n'roll lifestyles they cant attend a raid for a couple hours. Do you know what most adults do when they get home from work? They sit down on the sofa like slobs and watch television. Dont believe me? Go and look at the research yourself.
And only the super hardcore guilds raid on Fridays and Saturdays or even sundays.
And middle of the range guilds usually raid 3-4 nights a week and a 75% raid attendance is still satisfactory. Sorry, your life just isn't that interesting that you can't afford 3 nights a week of 3 hours to raid. Thats a total of 9 hours.
Whats his wife calling this guy away from the keyboard for? To listen to some idiot sing on American Idol? Dog peeing on the rug? Dont be a fat slob and walk the dog beforehand. The problem, and this applies to EVERYTHING, is that most people are un-organised, and well, basically useless.
Thousands of people can go to training for a sport 2 nights then play on the weekend. They dont tell the coach that their life is sooooooooooo full of exciting stuff they can't attend training. Or that training should be moved to suit them and their jet set lifestyle.
"sorry coach, I was hanging out with the kids AND MICK JAGGER and I couldn't come to the match on saturday".
And thats WoW today. Dumbed down for the American Idol, reality television watching, brainless "gimme gimme gimme" genertaion. And thats fine. But spare me the "my life is so brilliant I can only play WoW for 5 nanoseconds a month". 99% of people, myself included, lead tedious and boring lives.
Some people put their real life before a game. If they were to raid, they'd be yelled at if they had constant afk's, because of life aggro. People have different priorities in life. They may just have a few minutes to set down and play a game and relax.
The part in red I disagree with. The hardcore guilds raid 3-4 times a week, sometimes more. My husband is in one of these "Hardcore" guilds. His guild's schedule is Tuesday, Wednesday, and Sunday. They also do 10 man's one night a week. I allow him to raid two nights a week, his pick of which night. They don't like to raid on Friday and Saturday because the lag in the instance is often bad on those days. Many of the other "hardcore" guilds echo this sentiment, at least, on his server, Gorefiend.
you "allow" him to raid twice a week lol im glad your not my wife....and he needs to grow some balls
Currently Playing: Fallen Earth Played and liked: TCOS, Vanguard, Guild Wars, DDO Played and didn't like: CO, MO, STO, DF, AoC, WAR, WoW, EQ2, EVE, most f2p Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, Secret World
Originally posted by CazNeerg I am not proposing eliminating raids because I don't enjoy them. I only proposed that *if* no substantial number of people enjoy something, it shouldn't be left in the game solely to keep them on a treadmill and generate money for the company. If they want more money, they should add more *enjoyable* content, not trick weak-willed addicts into wasting their life away doing things they don't even enjoy.
Just because you don't enjoy raids does not mean that many many people don't. There is nothing wrong with raiding, it is the natural progression of a multiplayer game.
Until some creative devs come up with an alternative that works, this is how things are. You see a solution to something that is not a problem.
We are both speaking philosophically on this issue so to speak. I tried not to make my post to sound so singled out, but I might have missed some of that. Appologies.
"did these players start this game with that in mind or did they get trained by the game to think that way?"
Very good point. Most players probably don't come in on their first day playing the game thinking "i wunt teh oober lewt."
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I do not play wow. I have not been on any raids obviously. Casual gamers ,like myself, cant do raids for a number of reasons. One is they cannot adhere to a gaming schedule. Meaning, they cannot be at their PC for 5 pm tuesday. They have a job, wife, kids, friends, social obligations etc. They are frequent afkers His wife might call him away from the keyboard every 20 minutes. Their kids might cry. Their dog might of just pissed on the sofa. They cannot commit to being at the keyboard at that crucial raid moment. Simply, they just dont have the time. Maybe they cant play for an hour or two or 3. I do not think the most uber content should only be raid attainable for these reasons and more. I pay money. I dont say dont raid. I might even keep my sub as long as a raider because it takes me longer to hit max level. Why not give me the best loots too and make the raid more about badass content. In other words make the gear equal, regardless if its top tier crafted or top tier quested.
That is why Blizzard makes some of the new raids (like VoA and OS) short (less than an hour .. VoA is 20 min) and PUGable.
I am beginning to wonder if "uber loot" is just another way that developers try to gloss over bad writing and failure to provide scenarios which are engaging on their own merits.
The gear-focused grind player kinda doesn't care if the dungeon is engaging. Their interest is in a static pre-determined scenario where they can repeat a process in order to have a chance at a purple item. I don't think it's failure to provide as much as it is recognizing that the players who will use it most have little or no concern for anything truly engaging between point A and point B.
Gere's a test for you: Go get attuned for MC in WOW. When you get the the bar/tavern area, say "Oh, hold up. I want to look around here." The response is more than disenchanting.
Think of any raid dungeon. Now picture doing it with no epic drops at the end. There are some dungeons, you'd still run over and over again because they were engaging or entertaining. Most, though, you'd never set foot in again. In most raid-focused MMOs, you hear people say they have are currently 'up to' a certain dungeon or they have a prev dungeon 'on farm'. It is entirely about the drop.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
What kind of lives do these people lead where they need to "roleplay" working for a corporation? I play computer games because I want to get AWAY from that for a few hours. Once a game gets to be work, I'm gone.
Bingo. Any game that requires that much effort just to play is doomed to failure. People that actually work for a living don't have the time to stay at a computer five hours every day, especially in today's economy.
I think its hilarious all these people with kids and wives or husbands are complaining about not being able to raid on WoW. I have friends in FFXI an entire family that plays together, their kid is 24, they're both in their 50's one is a nurse. FFXI is a LOT more demanding when it comes to amount of time it takes to set up a raid or party. Yet they manage it with very busy schedules. They even play with their son, imagine that family activies!!! Never played with a more fun group of folks than this family of gamers.
On that you are right. I still remember the AZURE family from SWG. Father created the guild and city behind Bestine, wife was a creature handler, and daughter played too. All of them were Twileks and they did little events from time to time. It was the best time I ever had in that game until the NGE pissed them off and they left for Second Life.
I am beginning to wonder if "uber loot" is just another way that developers try to gloss over bad writing and failure to provide scenarios which are engaging on their own merits.
The gear-focused grind player kinda doesn't care if the dungeon is engaging. Their interest is in a static pre-determined scenario where they can repeat a process in order to have a chance at a purple item. I don't think it's failure to provide as much as it is recognizing that the players who will use it most have little or no concern for anything truly engaging between point A and point B.
Gere's a test for you: Go get attuned for MC in WOW. When you get the the bar/tavern area, say "Oh, hold up. I want to look around here." The response is more than disenchanting.
Think of any raid dungeon. Now picture doing it with no epic drops at the end. There are some dungeons, you'd still run over and over again because they were engaging or entertaining. Most, though, you'd never set foot in again. In most raid-focused MMOs, you hear people say they have are currently 'up to' a certain dungeon or they have a prev dungeon 'on farm'. It is entirely about the drop.
Bleh. Another point where good business sense is overriding good design, and in a certain sense, common decency. People who will spend hours and hours and yet more hours doing the exact same thing repeatedly, just for the chance to get a virtual item with purple header text, even though it is *only* getting that "item," not actually enjoying the process, that gives them any pleasure. This is not a sign of a well-balanced and mentally healthy individual. Why do I suspect that if Blizzard ran AA meetings, the walls would be covered in beer ads, and there would be sampler bottles of liquor next to every seat?
Edit: From a standpoint of good game design and general civic mindedness, they should probably just remove purple level items entirely. Won't happen though, as in the end they are in it for the money, not creative or moral integrity. Which, frankly, is exactly how the suits at Blizzard should be acting. It is just disappointing that the content designers who are theoretically supposed to care about more than just the money don't seem to have any problem with it either.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Believe it or not a lot of people enjoy raiding and you painting everything with some broad strokes about people hating or being forced to do something doesn't do the situation any justice.
Do people get burned out doing the same activities over and over, yes. However that is true for any activity in mmos. They are designed to offer players repetative content. Sure people would love to have new content to conquer all the time, but it takes time to develop.
Civic mindedness? I think you are working overtime to create a situaion to fit your opinions.
Believe it or not a lot of people enjoy raiding and you painting everything with some broad strokes about people hating or being forced to do something doesn't do the situation any justice. Do people get burned out doing the same activities over and over, yes. However that is true for any activity in mmos. They are designed to offer players repetative content. Sure people would love to have new content to conquer all the time, but it takes time to develop. Civic mindedness? I think you are working overtime to create a situaion to fit your opinions.
At no point have I denied that there are some people who enjoy raiding. I am not so sure why you are completely unwilling to acknowledge that there are a large number of people with addictive personality types who obsessively grind through content in MMOs searching for the complete set of "uber" gear, while not actually enjoying the experience of that grind. The very design of the game demonstrates knowledge on the part of the designers that people would not repeatedly grind through the same content if they didn't have a chance at those purples. The game is specifically designed the way it is to take advantage of people who feel compelled to expend the excessive amount of time required to be "elite." If the content itself was enjoyable, they wouldn't need the rare drops. If people actually enjoyed endlessly repeating the content, they wouldn't need the drops. The current system is all about exploiting addicts for profit, because those are the only people who wouldn't be playing the content even without the drops.
But like I said before, that makes perfect sense and is commendable from a business perspective. I am just surprised the creative workers cooperate so enthusiastically with it. "Civic mindedness" may be a stretch. As far as addictions go, at least this one doesn't hurt people other than the addict. Maybe they should start giving out free copies of WoW at AA and narcotics anonymous meetings.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Marrying someone who tells you what and when you can do things is entirely comical. An adult should be allowed to do as they want. If the spouse doesn't like it, then they should just ask for a divorce. Someone who truly loves you will give you all the free time you need, and vice versa.
I like big encounters like Onyxia that takes alot of folks but its a quick raid if you the group does well. Onyxia has nothing to do with time constraints. I love raiding and would love to see more folks with time constraints to get to enjoy raiding. I think they should stick with single big bosses like Onyxia for raiding that each have there own dungeon. How long do you think Onyxia takes once a group learns the encounter? Less than an hour. Of course there will be a learning curve. If you can't plan a certain time to meet with a guild about 1hr a week that is okay. But I don't see how a game developer could make it to where you can participate in a raid, it sounds as if you just absolutely have no time to raid and should enjoy the game in group play or solo or if you can't get over loot envy play something that does fit your playstyle.
It is your limitations that is holding you back not the game. Go to a game that allows you to play the way you want. The can only do so much to make content accessible on a grand scale. They have already made the raids easy and smaller. I like Warhammer's public quest. .you can consider them raiding or scenarios is interaction between many players. Just pick a game that fits you, don't try to force a game to fit you.
I like big encounters like Onyxia that takes alot of folks but its a quick raid if you the group does well. Onyxia has nothing to do with time constraints. I love raiding and would love to see more folks with time constraints to get to enjoy raiding. I think they should stick with single big bosses like Onyxia for raiding that each have there own dungeon. How long do you think Onyxia takes once a group learns the encounter? Less than an hour. Of course there will be a learning curve. If you can't plan a certain time to meet with a guild about 1hr a week that is okay. But I don't see how a game developer could make it to where you can participate in a raid, it sounds as if you just absolutely have no time to raid and should enjoy the game in group play or solo or if you can't get over loot envy play something that does fit your playstyle.
It is your limitations that is holding you back not the game. Go to a game that allows you to play the way you want. The can only do so much to make content accessible on a grand scale. They have already made the raids easy and smaller. I like Warhammer's public quest. .you can consider them raiding or scenarios is interaction between many players. Just pick a game that fits you, don't try to force a game to fit you.
Onyxia was always my favorite raid. I never raided past Karazhan(didnt care for the new raid content). I always appreciated the minimal trash mobs and the amount of time and coordination Ony took in the beginning. It would be nice to have more boss based dungeons, with less trash to drudge through.
At no point have I denied that there are some people who enjoy raiding. I am not so sure why you are completely unwilling to acknowledge that there are a large number of people with addictive personality types who obsessively grind through content in MMOs searching for the complete set of "uber" gear, while not actually enjoying the experience of that grind. The very design of the game demonstrates knowledge on the part of the designers that people would not repeatedly grind through the same content if they didn't have a chance at those purples. The game is specifically designed the way it is to take advantage of people who feel compelled to expend the excessive amount of time required to be "elite." If the content itself was enjoyable, they wouldn't need the rare drops. If people actually enjoyed endlessly repeating the content, they wouldn't need the drops. The current system is all about exploiting addicts for profit, because those are the only people who wouldn't be playing the content even without the drops. But like I said before, that makes perfect sense and is commendable from a business perspective. I am just surprised the creative workers cooperate so enthusiastically with it. "Civic mindedness" may be a stretch. As far as addictions go, at least this one doesn't hurt people other than the addict. Maybe they should start giving out free copies of WoW at AA and narcotics anonymous meetings.
This seems to be the centerpiece of your viewpoint, but I just don't see where you get your data from. I see plenty of people enjoy content until they get bored with it and quit. More that just enjoy raid content. I just don't buy that "large amounts" of people are paying to play something they don't enjoy and that removing loot proves there is a problem.
If you get rid of the generalization about people playing games they don't enjoy, your entire opinion collapeses on itself.
As for removing the rewards from raids proving it is a problem, I already pointed out your flawed logic. Remove the rewards from anything and the majority of people will stop doing those activities. That is not something unique to raids. Also raids are not about exploiting addictive personalities, it is about risk vs reward.
You are being very narrow in your application of theories to come out with a conclusion the specifically fits your opinion. Most of what you say can be applied to anything else about mmos and the exact same conclusions could be reached. Not that it proves a problem however.
I'm a hardcore casual, in that I play a lot, but I play casually. I'm not interested in wasting 2 to 6 hours on a raid. One, it's boring as hell. Two, I hate the politics. Three, I hate that it's the raid leader who gets to determine who gets loot. Four, I hate the whole format of doing the raid over and over and over ad nauseum in order to gear up.
I want the content that I like doing, questing, exploration, some player versus player to offer loot as good raiders get, not the half assed welfare epics they give us now in PvP or faction grinding. I pay the same $15 bucks a month you guys do, but Blizzard thinks your play style is more deserving of the best loot? I call bullshit. How the hell can they make such a casual friendly game only to stick it to casuals with the crappy end of the loot stick? Why the hell should a casual game even have raiding in the first place, let alone giving them (raiders) special content.
We casuals outnumber you elitist pricks, which means most of our subscription money goes to creating YOUR raiding content, taking away from ours and adding insult to injury by giving us crappy rewards to boot.
By the way, to the above poster. It has been proven over and over again on many different gaming boards that raiders absolutely hate the idea that any other play style would ever get equal rewards to raiding. Anytime the subject is brought up, they shout down the idea. I hate to break it to you, but raiding is specifically put in to stall players at end game. It is exactly for addictive personalities and is a mechanism to prolong stale and boring content. Ever seen a raid that actually rewards all of the participants? Hell no, you have to do it hundreds of times just to outfit the original raid group. It's a cheap assed way for lazy developers to create repetitive content that people will do over and over again ONLY because it's the last path of progression and has the best loot. I guarantee if you had other types of content that had the same rewards, you'd be hard pressed to find enough people to raid anymore.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I'm a hardcore casual, in that I play a lot, but I play casually. I'm not interested in wasting 2 to 6 hours on a raid. One, it's boring as hell. Two, I hate the politics. Three, I hate that it's the raid leader who gets to determine who gets loot. Four, I hate the whole format of doing the raid over and over and over ad nauseum in order to gear up. I want the content that I like doing, questing, exploration, some player versus player to offer loot as good raiders get, not the half assed welfare epics they give us now in PvP or faction grinding. I pay the same $15 bucks a month you guys do, but Blizzard thinks your play style is more deserving of the best loot? I call bullshit. How the hell can they make such a casual friendly game only to stick it to casuals with the crappy end of the loot stick? Why the hell should a casual game even have raiding in the first place, let alone giving them (raiders) special content. We casuals outnumber you elitist pricks, which means most of our subscription money goes to creating YOUR raiding content, taking away from ours and adding insult to injury by giving us crappy rewards to boot. By the way, to the above poster. It has been proven over and over again on many different gaming boards that raiders absolutely hate the idea that any other play style would ever get equal rewards to raiding. Anytime the subject is brought up, they shout down the idea. I hate to break it to you, but raiding is specifically put in to stall players at end game. It is exactly for addictive personalities and is a mechanism to prolong stale and boring content. Ever seen a raid that actually rewards all of the participants? Hell no, you have to do it hundreds of times just to outfit the original raid group. It's a cheap assed way for lazy developers to create repetitive content that people will do over and over again ONLY because it's the last path of progression and has the best loot. I guarantee if you had other types of content that had the same rewards, you'd be hard pressed to find enough people to raid anymore.
You are the one being harsh. I never called anyone a name. I only said I enjoy raiding. If you don't like one game then fine one that fits your playstyle or wait to one is released that does. I don't play WoW anymore because of how easy it has become, guess what the content wasn't fitting my wants so I left. It is easy to do. I am curious how you are having a hard time now anyway? Isn't the little 5 man content arena the way to get the best gear now anyhow? If you play alot and do not like raiding that seems like they have fixed the game for you.
This seems to be the centerpiece of your viewpoint, but I just don't see where you get your data from. I see plenty of people enjoy content until they get bored with it and quit. More that just enjoy raid content. I just don't buy that "large amounts" of people are paying to play something they don't enjoy and that removing loot proves there is a problem.
If you get rid of the generalization about people playing games they don't enjoy, your entire opinion collapeses on itself.
As for removing the rewards from raids proving it is a problem, I already pointed out your flawed logic. Remove the rewards from anything and the majority of people will stop doing those activities. That is not something unique to raids. Also raids are not about exploiting addictive personalities, it is about risk vs reward. You are being very narrow in your application of theories to come out with a conclusion the specifically fits your opinion. Most of what you say can be applied to anything else about mmos and the exact same conclusions could be reached. Not that it proves a problem however.
I really don't think at this point that either of us will convince the other of anything, but I am stubborn so I will try to make a final point. In a well-designed game, experiencing the content is it's own reward. If they have to add a chance to get some "uber" item in order to get people to spend time on content, it must not be content worth spending time on. So while I would disagree with your characterization of my argument as being opposed to all MMO mechanics, it is fair to say that it is opposed to MMOs using primarily gear focused mechanics, if grinding of any kind is required to get to that gear. The very fact that something is referred to as grinding means a there is a common perception that it is not fun, because when you are having fun, it doesn't feel like a grind.
So yes, you are correct in pointing out that my basic argument attacks the overall WoW model, not just the raids. I never claimed it was a problem in a cosmic sense, but it is certainly a problem if you happen to be one of the players who likes for games to be enjoyable for most or all of the time you are playing them, not just when you reach specific goals occasionally, whether it be every few hours, days, or even longer.
So to reiterate and close, you shouldn't need a reward to play a game. Playing the game should *be* the reward.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
This entire discussion has been done to death, and its basically just about two things: Being able to do content NOW, as opposed to later when you outlevel it usually means its really about getting the REWARDS now. Casual Players who use this argument frequently really just want the items, or the other guys not get any items for themselves. Its not any more complicated than that.
The other thing is attention. People want more and more attention given to their playstyle. Whenever something new comes for any MMORPG, the playstyle that did NOT get it whines because valuable resources were given to the enemy. Its not about getting anything, its about getting as much as possible out of the limited ressources available. Its really like kids asking for attention of their parents: Its not enough to get some, its important to get more than others.
Raid Content is actually quite effective if you put it somewhere middle-of-the-road in difficulty. The current Ulduar, maybe a bit tougher, is a good raid dungeon in terms of development time vs. game time.
Also, some content doesnt really do any damage to the game other than leaving people wanting it to be gone or turned into stuff for their playstyle. PvE-Raids dont upset balance.
Comments
Many people enjoy raiding and the rewards are the carrot to chase. That is just how most mmos are currently designed and that applies to solo play just as much as it does raiding as you can see by your own desire to have the best rewards.
Why should the rewards be removed from raids? Lets apply that same line of thinking to dungeons, group encounters, chain quests, reputation work, faction, trade skills and leveling all together. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't enjoy or have time for those activities. We can remove the rewards from everything outside of solo play, but that doesn't mean there is a problem. MMOs are designed as gear chases and removing the rewards from activites doesn't prove there was some problem to be fixed.
If you moved all of the best rewards in the game [or just copied them] and put them in soloable quests, that is what the bulk of players would do all day long. The majority of players gravitate towards the path of least resistance. That is just the way it is, because most mmos center around players advancing their avatars. If there is nothing to advance avatars in a certain activity, then most players will ignore it. Not all, but most. Without the reward why take the risk?
What you are proposing is a very narrow view of something that is basically designed to work in your favor of gaining rewards and in turn painting something you don't enjoy or have time to enjoy as problematic. It doesn't solve a problem and it effectively eliminates playstyles of others just to cater to someone else. Blizzard has taken a number of positive steps to open the end game rewards to the majority of the playerbase. that has been their strength for so long, they cater to many and somehow do a good job of it.
From heroic dugeon badges, pvp season rewards, token, badge, arena whatever, 10 man raid mirrors of 25 man raid content, etc. There are multiple avenues for different playstyles. You no longer need to join a 40 man raid or a 25 man raid.
Like I said before, I am only speaking against the idea that a game which has chosen to support multiple play styles should be designed in a way that in order to be "successful" you have to go outside your play style and spend substantial amount of times doing something you don't enjoy. Ultimately, games are supposed to be about fun. I never said that I personally wanted to get the best rewards, it was more of a philosophical standpoint. I really don't care about the rewards, I haven't done PvP since they lobotomized Alterac Valley and took most of the fun out it, solo PvE has never been hard, and I have never had the slightest desire to go on a raid. I play games for story, character development, and immersion, not "uber loot." I am not proposing eliminating raids because I don't enjoy them. I only proposed that *if* no substantial number of people enjoy something, it shouldn't be left in the game solely to keep them on a treadmill and generate money for the company. If they want more money, they should add more *enjoyable* content, not trick weak-willed addicts into wasting their life away doing things they don't even enjoy.
Again, all I am doing is arguing that a game should be fun and enjoyable. Obviously the root problem isn't Blizzard, they are doing what works, as is clear from their financial success. The root problem is people getting obsessively serious about a game, to the point where they treat it like a job and stop having fun, while often not even pausing to think long enough to realize they aren't having fun. As for the people who actually enjoy raids, more power to them. I really wish they did it for me, Blizzard has made enough of them that I wouldn't have to keep spending money trying to find games with a plot.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I bet if you put some effort into networking with players around your playtime you could put together a raid for an hour or two for how ever many days a week you chose. There are plenty of people with wide open schedules, with alts, casual playtimes like yourself, etc that would most likely jump on the chance to raid in your time slot. I'm not talking about spamming trade channel for pug players, but put a post up on your guild forum or server forum. When you group with people in dungeons see if the would be interested and write their names down. There is almost always a pug raid after a wintergrasp victory that needs more people, etc. The opportunities are out there if people put in the effort.
An hour or two is plenty of time to raid and get the same rewards as anyone else. My casual 10 man raid already has a specific 1 hour raid night where we clear the first 3 encounters in ulduar. This lets us spend our 3 hour raid night just on progression with other encounters. It didn't take to long to get to the point of clearing naxx in one 3 hour night and I suspect ulduar will turn into the same thing in the coming months.
I think the real problem with the casual crowd that is upset that they "cannot" raid is that there is noone to do the organization and have something ready to jump right into. That is not meant as an insult. Facts of life are that some people are leaders and some are followers.
I see your point. And you are right. If I did take some time to put together a nice like of friends from people I do other group content, before long I would have a huge list to take from. I guess, then, for me it does come down to feeling like it takes more time than an hour or two. I really haven't done any raids in quite a few years and from what I understand (and what you've just said too!) is that it no longer takes three to four hours to do a single raid. I don't agree that it has anything to do with organization. I guess if I really wanted to raid that bad, I would be working on networking and getting more people.
I think the biggest problem is the "casuals" who demand the same rewards to easier content. Like I said, I would love to get the best gear from just grouping (or crafting), but there does need to be an acheivement for raiding. Something tangible is best (raid treadmill agrument aside), and gear fills this void (especially after you've hit max level). I completely agree that the "hardcore" raiders need better gear for their work (but at the same time dislike how it denys other people from joining a raid because...as someone else said... their gear "isn't good enough".).
I think we can all agree that it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" catch-22 situation. But I think, honestly, that WoW does a great job balancing small group content with large group content, and solo content. There is enough of everything that should keep the majority happy (and, let's be honest, has for a while considering thir massive subscriber numbers).
It is, though, difficult to find a guild sometimes that will accept "casuals" but still has enough people to throw together a raid at odd hours (well, it used to be, like I said I haven't worried about raiding so much. I am an altaholic).
I'm not sure it is a catch 22 at all. Maybe you get denied access to joining a hardcore raiding guild, but there are plenty of casual guilds and pugs to join and they are really successful. It doesn't take much work to run 5 man dungeons to get some gear to be decently equiped enough for raid zones. That is part of the progression in mmos and people should put a little effort into the task.
I just don't see anyone denied access to anything. Raiding in wow now is far more friendly than it was in the original release ane even burning crusade. The barriers have mostly been removed.
And then he said! let their be light! Coudn't have said it better! That's not the only reason I don't play wow but its in my top 100 reasons!
Now Playing: Guild Wars 2/ Diablo 3
Funny, I've raided with people with kids, jobs, mortgages, social lives. Some even played sport. Its rubbish that all these "casual" players have such rock'n'roll lifestyles they cant attend a raid for a couple hours. Do you know what most adults do when they get home from work? They sit down on the sofa like slobs and watch television. Dont believe me? Go and look at the research yourself.
And only the super hardcore guilds raid on Fridays and Saturdays or even sundays.
And middle of the range guilds usually raid 3-4 nights a week and a 75% raid attendance is still satisfactory. Sorry, your life just isn't that interesting that you can't afford 3 nights a week of 3 hours to raid. Thats a total of 9 hours.
Whats his wife calling this guy away from the keyboard for? To listen to some idiot sing on American Idol? Dog peeing on the rug? Dont be a fat slob and walk the dog beforehand. The problem, and this applies to EVERYTHING, is that most people are un-organised, and well, basically useless.
Thousands of people can go to training for a sport 2 nights then play on the weekend. They dont tell the coach that their life is sooooooooooo full of exciting stuff they can't attend training. Or that training should be moved to suit them and their jet set lifestyle.
"sorry coach, I was hanging out with the kids AND MICK JAGGER and I couldn't come to the match on saturday".
And thats WoW today. Dumbed down for the American Idol, reality television watching, brainless "gimme gimme gimme" genertaion. And thats fine. But spare me the "my life is so brilliant I can only play WoW for 5 nanoseconds a month". 99% of people, myself included, lead tedious and boring lives.
Some people put their real life before a game. If they were to raid, they'd be yelled at if they had constant afk's, because of life aggro. People have different priorities in life. They may just have a few minutes to set down and play a game and relax.
The part in red I disagree with. The hardcore guilds raid 3-4 times a week, sometimes more. My husband is in one of these "Hardcore" guilds. His guild's schedule is Tuesday, Wednesday, and Sunday. They also do 10 man's one night a week. I allow him to raid two nights a week, his pick of which night. They don't like to raid on Friday and Saturday because the lag in the instance is often bad on those days. Many of the other "hardcore" guilds echo this sentiment, at least, on his server, Gorefiend.
you "allow" him to raid twice a week lol im glad your not my wife....and he needs to grow some balls
Currently Playing: Fallen Earth
Played and liked: TCOS, Vanguard, Guild Wars, DDO
Played and didn't like: CO, MO, STO, DF, AoC, WAR, WoW, EQ2, EVE, most f2p
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, Secret World
Just because you don't enjoy raids does not mean that many many people don't. There is nothing wrong with raiding, it is the natural progression of a multiplayer game.
Until some creative devs come up with an alternative that works, this is how things are. You see a solution to something that is not a problem.
We are both speaking philosophically on this issue so to speak. I tried not to make my post to sound so singled out, but I might have missed some of that. Appologies.
Ask yourself:
"did these players start this game with that in mind or did they get trained by the game to think that way?"
Very good point. Most players probably don't come in on their first day playing the game thinking "i wunt teh oober lewt."
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
That is why Blizzard makes some of the new raids (like VoA and OS) short (less than an hour .. VoA is 20 min) and PUGable.
What kind of lives do these people lead where they need to "roleplay" working for a corporation?
I play computer games because I want to get AWAY from that for a few hours. Once a game gets to be work, I'm gone.
The gear-focused grind player kinda doesn't care if the dungeon is engaging. Their interest is in a static pre-determined scenario where they can repeat a process in order to have a chance at a purple item. I don't think it's failure to provide as much as it is recognizing that the players who will use it most have little or no concern for anything truly engaging between point A and point B.
Gere's a test for you: Go get attuned for MC in WOW. When you get the the bar/tavern area, say "Oh, hold up. I want to look around here." The response is more than disenchanting.
Think of any raid dungeon. Now picture doing it with no epic drops at the end. There are some dungeons, you'd still run over and over again because they were engaging or entertaining. Most, though, you'd never set foot in again. In most raid-focused MMOs, you hear people say they have are currently 'up to' a certain dungeon or they have a prev dungeon 'on farm'. It is entirely about the drop.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Bingo. Any game that requires that much effort just to play is doomed to failure. People that actually work for a living don't have the time to stay at a computer five hours every day, especially in today's economy.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
On that you are right. I still remember the AZURE family from SWG. Father created the guild and city behind Bestine, wife was a creature handler, and daughter played too. All of them were Twileks and they did little events from time to time. It was the best time I ever had in that game until the NGE pissed them off and they left for Second Life.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
The gear-focused grind player kinda doesn't care if the dungeon is engaging. Their interest is in a static pre-determined scenario where they can repeat a process in order to have a chance at a purple item. I don't think it's failure to provide as much as it is recognizing that the players who will use it most have little or no concern for anything truly engaging between point A and point B.
Gere's a test for you: Go get attuned for MC in WOW. When you get the the bar/tavern area, say "Oh, hold up. I want to look around here." The response is more than disenchanting.
Think of any raid dungeon. Now picture doing it with no epic drops at the end. There are some dungeons, you'd still run over and over again because they were engaging or entertaining. Most, though, you'd never set foot in again. In most raid-focused MMOs, you hear people say they have are currently 'up to' a certain dungeon or they have a prev dungeon 'on farm'. It is entirely about the drop.
Bleh. Another point where good business sense is overriding good design, and in a certain sense, common decency. People who will spend hours and hours and yet more hours doing the exact same thing repeatedly, just for the chance to get a virtual item with purple header text, even though it is *only* getting that "item," not actually enjoying the process, that gives them any pleasure. This is not a sign of a well-balanced and mentally healthy individual. Why do I suspect that if Blizzard ran AA meetings, the walls would be covered in beer ads, and there would be sampler bottles of liquor next to every seat?
Edit: From a standpoint of good game design and general civic mindedness, they should probably just remove purple level items entirely. Won't happen though, as in the end they are in it for the money, not creative or moral integrity. Which, frankly, is exactly how the suits at Blizzard should be acting. It is just disappointing that the content designers who are theoretically supposed to care about more than just the money don't seem to have any problem with it either.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Believe it or not a lot of people enjoy raiding and you painting everything with some broad strokes about people hating or being forced to do something doesn't do the situation any justice.
Do people get burned out doing the same activities over and over, yes. However that is true for any activity in mmos. They are designed to offer players repetative content. Sure people would love to have new content to conquer all the time, but it takes time to develop.
Civic mindedness? I think you are working overtime to create a situaion to fit your opinions.
At no point have I denied that there are some people who enjoy raiding. I am not so sure why you are completely unwilling to acknowledge that there are a large number of people with addictive personality types who obsessively grind through content in MMOs searching for the complete set of "uber" gear, while not actually enjoying the experience of that grind. The very design of the game demonstrates knowledge on the part of the designers that people would not repeatedly grind through the same content if they didn't have a chance at those purples. The game is specifically designed the way it is to take advantage of people who feel compelled to expend the excessive amount of time required to be "elite." If the content itself was enjoyable, they wouldn't need the rare drops. If people actually enjoyed endlessly repeating the content, they wouldn't need the drops. The current system is all about exploiting addicts for profit, because those are the only people who wouldn't be playing the content even without the drops.
But like I said before, that makes perfect sense and is commendable from a business perspective. I am just surprised the creative workers cooperate so enthusiastically with it. "Civic mindedness" may be a stretch. As far as addictions go, at least this one doesn't hurt people other than the addict. Maybe they should start giving out free copies of WoW at AA and narcotics anonymous meetings.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Marrying someone who tells you what and when you can do things is entirely comical. An adult should be allowed to do as they want. If the spouse doesn't like it, then they should just ask for a divorce. Someone who truly loves you will give you all the free time you need, and vice versa.
I like big encounters like Onyxia that takes alot of folks but its a quick raid if you the group does well. Onyxia has nothing to do with time constraints. I love raiding and would love to see more folks with time constraints to get to enjoy raiding. I think they should stick with single big bosses like Onyxia for raiding that each have there own dungeon. How long do you think Onyxia takes once a group learns the encounter? Less than an hour. Of course there will be a learning curve. If you can't plan a certain time to meet with a guild about 1hr a week that is okay. But I don't see how a game developer could make it to where you can participate in a raid, it sounds as if you just absolutely have no time to raid and should enjoy the game in group play or solo or if you can't get over loot envy play something that does fit your playstyle.
It is your limitations that is holding you back not the game. Go to a game that allows you to play the way you want. The can only do so much to make content accessible on a grand scale. They have already made the raids easy and smaller. I like Warhammer's public quest. .you can consider them raiding or scenarios is interaction between many players. Just pick a game that fits you, don't try to force a game to fit you.
I like big encounters like Onyxia that takes alot of folks but its a quick raid if you the group does well. Onyxia has nothing to do with time constraints. I love raiding and would love to see more folks with time constraints to get to enjoy raiding. I think they should stick with single big bosses like Onyxia for raiding that each have there own dungeon. How long do you think Onyxia takes once a group learns the encounter? Less than an hour. Of course there will be a learning curve. If you can't plan a certain time to meet with a guild about 1hr a week that is okay. But I don't see how a game developer could make it to where you can participate in a raid, it sounds as if you just absolutely have no time to raid and should enjoy the game in group play or solo or if you can't get over loot envy play something that does fit your playstyle.
It is your limitations that is holding you back not the game. Go to a game that allows you to play the way you want. The can only do so much to make content accessible on a grand scale. They have already made the raids easy and smaller. I like Warhammer's public quest. .you can consider them raiding or scenarios is interaction between many players. Just pick a game that fits you, don't try to force a game to fit you.
Onyxia was always my favorite raid. I never raided past Karazhan(didnt care for the new raid content). I always appreciated the minimal trash mobs and the amount of time and coordination Ony took in the beginning. It would be nice to have more boss based dungeons, with less trash to drudge through.
This seems to be the centerpiece of your viewpoint, but I just don't see where you get your data from. I see plenty of people enjoy content until they get bored with it and quit. More that just enjoy raid content. I just don't buy that "large amounts" of people are paying to play something they don't enjoy and that removing loot proves there is a problem.
If you get rid of the generalization about people playing games they don't enjoy, your entire opinion collapeses on itself.
As for removing the rewards from raids proving it is a problem, I already pointed out your flawed logic. Remove the rewards from anything and the majority of people will stop doing those activities. That is not something unique to raids. Also raids are not about exploiting addictive personalities, it is about risk vs reward.
You are being very narrow in your application of theories to come out with a conclusion the specifically fits your opinion. Most of what you say can be applied to anything else about mmos and the exact same conclusions could be reached. Not that it proves a problem however.
I'm a hardcore casual, in that I play a lot, but I play casually. I'm not interested in wasting 2 to 6 hours on a raid. One, it's boring as hell. Two, I hate the politics. Three, I hate that it's the raid leader who gets to determine who gets loot. Four, I hate the whole format of doing the raid over and over and over ad nauseum in order to gear up.
I want the content that I like doing, questing, exploration, some player versus player to offer loot as good raiders get, not the half assed welfare epics they give us now in PvP or faction grinding. I pay the same $15 bucks a month you guys do, but Blizzard thinks your play style is more deserving of the best loot? I call bullshit. How the hell can they make such a casual friendly game only to stick it to casuals with the crappy end of the loot stick? Why the hell should a casual game even have raiding in the first place, let alone giving them (raiders) special content.
We casuals outnumber you elitist pricks, which means most of our subscription money goes to creating YOUR raiding content, taking away from ours and adding insult to injury by giving us crappy rewards to boot.
By the way, to the above poster. It has been proven over and over again on many different gaming boards that raiders absolutely hate the idea that any other play style would ever get equal rewards to raiding. Anytime the subject is brought up, they shout down the idea. I hate to break it to you, but raiding is specifically put in to stall players at end game. It is exactly for addictive personalities and is a mechanism to prolong stale and boring content. Ever seen a raid that actually rewards all of the participants? Hell no, you have to do it hundreds of times just to outfit the original raid group. It's a cheap assed way for lazy developers to create repetitive content that people will do over and over again ONLY because it's the last path of progression and has the best loot. I guarantee if you had other types of content that had the same rewards, you'd be hard pressed to find enough people to raid anymore.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You are the one being harsh. I never called anyone a name. I only said I enjoy raiding. If you don't like one game then fine one that fits your playstyle or wait to one is released that does. I don't play WoW anymore because of how easy it has become, guess what the content wasn't fitting my wants so I left. It is easy to do. I am curious how you are having a hard time now anyway? Isn't the little 5 man content arena the way to get the best gear now anyhow? If you play alot and do not like raiding that seems like they have fixed the game for you.
I really don't think at this point that either of us will convince the other of anything, but I am stubborn so I will try to make a final point. In a well-designed game, experiencing the content is it's own reward. If they have to add a chance to get some "uber" item in order to get people to spend time on content, it must not be content worth spending time on. So while I would disagree with your characterization of my argument as being opposed to all MMO mechanics, it is fair to say that it is opposed to MMOs using primarily gear focused mechanics, if grinding of any kind is required to get to that gear. The very fact that something is referred to as grinding means a there is a common perception that it is not fun, because when you are having fun, it doesn't feel like a grind.
So yes, you are correct in pointing out that my basic argument attacks the overall WoW model, not just the raids. I never claimed it was a problem in a cosmic sense, but it is certainly a problem if you happen to be one of the players who likes for games to be enjoyable for most or all of the time you are playing them, not just when you reach specific goals occasionally, whether it be every few hours, days, or even longer.
So to reiterate and close, you shouldn't need a reward to play a game. Playing the game should *be* the reward.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
This entire discussion has been done to death, and its basically just about two things: Being able to do content NOW, as opposed to later when you outlevel it usually means its really about getting the REWARDS now. Casual Players who use this argument frequently really just want the items, or the other guys not get any items for themselves. Its not any more complicated than that.
The other thing is attention. People want more and more attention given to their playstyle. Whenever something new comes for any MMORPG, the playstyle that did NOT get it whines because valuable resources were given to the enemy. Its not about getting anything, its about getting as much as possible out of the limited ressources available. Its really like kids asking for attention of their parents: Its not enough to get some, its important to get more than others.
Raid Content is actually quite effective if you put it somewhere middle-of-the-road in difficulty. The current Ulduar, maybe a bit tougher, is a good raid dungeon in terms of development time vs. game time.
Also, some content doesnt really do any damage to the game other than leaving people wanting it to be gone or turned into stuff for their playstyle. PvE-Raids dont upset balance.
Its just about attention by the Devs.