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SWG and the apparent war on reality, is it over?
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
A great many threads on this and other forums about SWG seem to debate history. I've seen this more about this game than any other, and it made me wonder why. I think I have a possible answer.
Consider the following comments from Dan Rubenfield's blog about the unexpected revamp of the game:
“However, we made a mistake. A BIG mistake.
Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we
streamline our characters.
People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.
We told them. “If you do this, you will lose all of our subscribers. It is that significant.”
The response was that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.
So, we pushed forward.” (Rubenfield’s blog)
Based on the post-NGE fallout, it seems that Dan's prediction was correct.
Then consider the comments made by those apparently attempting to market the game after the change:
“Brekkee - *Zeto-Starsider* Why continue with the NGE even though the overwhelmingly negative response? I personally know of ALOT of people quitting over this.
SWG-TSlothrop - Actually, we have had a pretty positive response to the enhancements.”
To me, it seems that a lot of distortion of reality occured in an attempt to convince people that the NGE was and should be successful.
So, is this a done deal? Are we finished arguing about whether or not the NGE was a success? Frankly, I think we should be. I'll turn once again to Dan Rubenfield's blog to support this viewpoint (please pardon the graphic language, it's not mine):
"We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers.
It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production,
community. You name it.
We made huge mistakes. We got too close to the changes. Design took something and made it bigger than it should’ve been.
We got swept up in the wave of changes and ran with it. And we fucked it up. All of us.
Note - To those who think I might be pointing fingers. I say it out loud, Italicized and Bold.
I fucked it up.
Not all of it, but I made mistakes.
Some big ones, Some small ones,
Some that I’m still torn about to this day.
That is how things work. We make mistakes. We are not infallible.
We take these lessons and try not to fuck up again.
That is the nature of design.
Did the buck stop with design? Did the buck stop with Me?
No.
When I say it was an organizational failure, I mean it. Design made mistakes, Marketing made mistakes, Management made mistakes, Production made mistakes.
Did I alone give the go/no-go?
No.
Did design alone give the go/no-go?
No
Did an organization, made up of over 200 people give the go/no-go?
Yes.
Does that obviate us of blame?
Nope.
It was still a huge fuckup.
Epoch grade fuckup."
Some folks still apparently want to revise history, deny wrong-doing, claim that SWG is a huge success etc.. Frankly, for me this is a done deal. I think their battle is with reality, and reality always seems to have the last word.
Comments
Excellent post Arch. For the complete article on Rubensfield's outlook on the NGE debacle visit:
OM NOM NOM
The NGE was really more of the Final Nail in the Coffin and the game was doomed from the start.
What the game needed by the sounds of things in another post is Raph Koster to have full control as he's the only one that seems to get it. However he left towards the end of 2003 and funny enough thats when things stopped moving forward with great new content like player cities and started going backwards with holocrons.
That blog entry is old, the NGE is old, SWG is old, its graphics & crappy engine are old, it's built with a grinder mentality. The only ones waging a "war on reality" are the vets.
rubenfield.com/
If it was over and if you ask $OE I'd bet they would say they WON! rofl
" Are we finished arguing about whether or not the NGE was a success?"
Who in their right mind insists that it was?
WHY ARE YOU STILL HAVING THIS CONVERSATION? It's the same thing for going on four years now.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
this
Nah, some SOE defenders continue to post b.s. about vets and the game as a whole. The most recent example was saying that only SWG vets have a problem with Sony's ethics. Then the claim was made that SOE and Sony have never done anything unethical. I provided some evidence to the contrary, and it led to over 200 posts, some containing nonsense that largely sought to distort reality. Sorry you missed it, it was better than E.R. for drama lol.
As a matter of fact, saying that vets are the only ones waging war on reality, is in itself unrealistic. Especially in a thread where a vet says, "as far as I'm concerned this is over."
Continuing this incessant circular discussion of the NGE is waging a war on reality. Everyone keeps talking about it as if some smoking gun is going to appear so everyone can ... what? Have closure? FINALLY get on with their lives?
It's not hard to figure out. SOE had a game that wasn't doing what it should have been (largely due to SOE's shortcomings), and they did the NGE, they fucked everything up, and it blew up in their faces.
We knew that four years ago. The continued discussion of the who-what-where-when-whys of the situation is just beating that deceased Clydesdale, which by now is an unrecognizable pulp. Find something else to talk about.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Man, I really hate to agree with Kobie. LOL
Probably the reason why so many won't let it go is there is really nothing out to replace it, but this too, will CHANGE. IMHO, "it's dead, Jim". And most probably with TOR and/or STO, and with Smedley even using the word "sunset" in an interveiw, it will breath it's last breath, soon enough.
Man, I really hate to agree with Kobie. LOL
Probably the reason why so many won't let it go is there is really nothing out to replace it, but this too, will CHANGE. IMHO, "it's dead, Jim". And most probably with TOR and/or STO, and with Smedley even using the word "sunset" in an interveiw, it will breath it's last breath, soon enough.
And when it does draw its last breath, I'm sure some of the more bitter folks around here and in the lolforum will dance in the streets and act like they caused it.
And the sane people will see it for what it is -- a company screwed itself with bad decisions and was overtaken by another company who (we can hope) did a better job.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Man, I really hate to agree with Kobie. LOL
Probably the reason why so many won't let it go is there is really nothing out to replace it, but this too, will CHANGE. IMHO, "it's dead, Jim". And most probably with TOR and/or STO, and with Smedley even using the word "sunset" in an interveiw, it will breath it's last breath, soon enough.
And when it does draw its last breath, I'm sure some of the more bitter folks around here and in the lolforum will dance in the streets and act like they caused it.
And the sane people will see it for what it is -- a company screwed itself with bad decisions and was overtaken by another company who (we can hope) did a better job.
well said kobie
Man, I really hate to agree with Kobie. LOL
Probably the reason why so many won't let it go is there is really nothing out to replace it, but this too, will CHANGE. IMHO, "it's dead, Jim". And most probably with TOR and/or STO, and with Smedley even using the word "sunset" in an interveiw, it will breath it's last breath, soon enough.
And when it does draw its last breath, I'm sure some of the more bitter folks around here and in the lolforum will dance in the streets and act like they caused it.
And the sane people will see it for what it is -- a company screwed itself with bad decisions and was overtaken by another company who (we can hope) did a better job.
well said kobie
/hi5
Glad you're enjoying EVE. I did the trial, didn't much care for the UI. Seemed VERY clunky. I heard they CHANGED it up though. How is it now?
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Respectfully, how is it that you belittle others about discussing this yet in the same post you critisize the NGE just the same? Why is it bad for others yet OK when you do it?
IMO the conversations this topic has generated in these 4 years has made me a more informed consumer with respect to all MMO's. If people had followed the "get over it" advice some try to insist on others then some valuble information and thought provoking concepts would likely never resulted.
I for one like to read ArcAngel's posts for this very reason., and I hope that those who try to stop this type of dialogue are indeed the "vocal minority".
"Frankly, for me this is a done deal." Seems you may have missed that part ^_^. Btw, your summary of events works great for me. I've never thought of you as at war with reality. At war with Fisher maybe lol, but not reality -_^.
Anyways, like Suvroc, the whole thing for me now is just a series of object lessons on MMOs, fans, forums and the like. I also hope the next go 'round for a StarWars MMO is more successful for all concerned.
Please stay on-topic, thanks.
Respectfully, how is it that you belittle others about discussing this yet in the same post you critisize the NGE just the same? Why is it bad for others yet OK when you do it?
IMO the conversations this topic has generated in these 4 years has made me a more informed consumer with respect to all MMO's. If people had followed the "get over it" advice some try to insist on others then some valuble information and thought provoking concepts would likely never resulted.
I for one like to read ArcAngel's posts for this very reason., and I hope that those who try to stop this type of dialogue are indeed the "vocal minority".
Kobie knows about the effects SOE's CHANGES have wraught on SWG. Any1 whos been in SWG for more than 3 months knows, maybe they don't want to admit it, but they know.
I, for another, really like Arc's posts. One of the best memories I have, of these forums, is when Arc and I wrote a nautical history of SWG. Arc, with "A Perfect Storm" and my finish with "Titanic". FIsher liked that 1 so much, he put a link to it from his own site. I believe posts like these, and this forum, has educated most people that come here to what should not be done in a MMORPG. Everybody gets it, cept SOE, who is really the 1 that should "get it".
LA "gets it". That is most probably why they bailed on SOE and SWG in 05 when they started talking with Bioware. STO gets it. Have you all seen the April fools joke they did on the STO forums? (It's archived if you haven't) I really had a good laugh there. There must have been a dev or 2, for STO, that played SWG for a while. LOL
It's was Arc's posts on Cryptic, here, and how they manage a MMO (without massive CHANGES) that has really drawn my interest in STO.
With the new (old) server nearing completion, SW:TOR, and ST:O, there will be plenty of options, very soon. So, maybe even MMO companies/developers have now "got it" too.
Speaking of staying on topic - the topic started by Arc is about a point he would like to make about a subject that he is interested in. It is my impression that the nature of forums allows someone to go in, find the area to which the subject applies to and post a topic to converse with people about said issue or point.
Now, call me a canadian stalker but I see nowhere a list of people whom posters have to get permission from to post a topic. Nor did I see in the TOA, a mandate for people to open, read and then reply to topics that they say are tired and old. If I see a post about My Little Pony, I enjoy the freedom of not actually opening the thread. The people posting within it are happy that I don't go in there and post offtopic as well as to go in there and deride their time consuming posts as meaningless. Nor insinuate that they (the posters) have not gone on with their lives. Only a psychic would know that outside of the persons in question.
To stay on topic and answer the question all at once, I will add that SOE has been and curretnly fighting a war on reality in an effort to maximize profits for their dying game that they screwed up on a now legendary level. They have to maintain this front and war until at such time, the game is put out of its pathetic misery and slowly but surely, little blurbs and snipes will appear from various in the know sources. Truth or partial truth will then ooze out but by then, all of us will have continued going on with our lives and not really care. Some of us just may have to troll through necro posts to get in our snipes about getting over it - thats all.
Speaking of staying on topic - the topic started by Arc is about a point he would like to make about a subject that he is interested in. It is my impression that the nature of forums allows someone to go in, find the area to which the subject applies to and post a topic to converse with people about said issue or point.
Now, call me a canadian stalker but I see nowhere a list of people whom posters have to get permission from to post a topic. Nor did I see in the TOA, a mandate for people to open, read and then reply to topics that they say are tired and old. If I see a post about My Little Pony, I enjoy the freedom of not actually opening the thread. The people posting within it are happy that I don't go in there and post offtopic as well as to go in there and deride their time consuming posts as meaningless. Nor insinuate that they (the posters) have not gone on with their lives. Only a psychic would know that outside of the persons in question.
To stay on topic and answer the question all at once, I will add that SOE has been and curretnly fighting a war on reality in an effort to maximize profits for their dying game that they screwed up on a now legendary level. They have to maintain this front and war until at such time, the game is put out of its pathetic misery and slowly but surely, little blurbs and snipes will appear from various in the know sources. Truth or partial truth will then ooze out but by then, all of us will have continued going on with our lives and not really care. Some of us just may have to troll through necro posts to get in our snipes about getting over it - thats all.
Thanks for the lecture. I did not know what forums were for until you enlightened me. You truly are a credit to the human race, and the universe as a whole. Thank you. Thank you so much.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Respectfully, how is it that you belittle others about discussing this yet in the same post you critisize the NGE just the same? Why is it bad for others yet OK when you do it?
IMO the conversations this topic has generated in these 4 years has made me a more informed consumer with respect to all MMO's. If people had followed the "get over it" advice some try to insist on others then some valuble information and thought provoking concepts would likely never resulted.
I for one like to read ArcAngel's posts for this very reason., and I hope that those who try to stop this type of dialogue are indeed the "vocal minority".
I "belittle others for discussing this" because IT'S THE SAME CONVERSATION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
NOTHING new comes out of any of these discussions. You could copy + paste half the posts in this thread into any of hundreds of others and nobody would be able to tell the difference.
Ever see the movie "Groundhog Day"? The vet refuge is the internet version of "Groundhog Day."
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Anytime, Kobe. Thing is knowing what they are for and then complaining about them being used for that exact same purpose is kinda odd to say the least.
Still, since I have your ear and apparently your undying gratitude, allow me to also point out the decription of the forums that you are complaining about.
A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone.
Armed with this knowledge, you can now go forth and post elsewhere about other topics and no longer be bothered with posts that the INTENT of this forum. Or you can keep posting here, perhaps on topic and perhaps avoiding the ones that you sense are diagreeable to you. Unless you are intent on doing so to satisfy some irrantional need.
To err is human, to groundhogs day us with oftopic posts about our posts belongs more to the troll race.
Respectfully, how is it that you belittle others about discussing this yet in the same post you critisize the NGE just the same? Why is it bad for others yet OK when you do it?
IMO the conversations this topic has generated in these 4 years has made me a more informed consumer with respect to all MMO's. If people had followed the "get over it" advice some try to insist on others then some valuble information and thought provoking concepts would likely never resulted.
I for one like to read ArcAngel's posts for this very reason., and I hope that those who try to stop this type of dialogue are indeed the "vocal minority".
I "belittle others for discussing this" because IT'S THE SAME CONVERSATION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
NOTHING new comes out of any of these discussions. You could copy + paste half the posts in this thread into any of hundreds of others and nobody would be able to tell the difference.
Ever see the movie "Groundhog Day"? The vet refuge is the internet version of "Groundhog Day."
I think if you pause a moment, you'll see that I'm actually agreeing with you, to a large extent.
It may even be that you are so used to seeing vet posts a certain way, and responding a certain way that you don't realize your part in the cycle.
My post isn't just the same old thing. Try to set your expectations aside for a moment, if you would. It's a declaration that saying the "same old thing" is no longer necessary in my view.
Also, for interest sake, I"m highlighting where I think the cycle began. I see it beginning with a marketting push that seemed disconnected with reality. The same disconnected message continues to be shared (by a very few people, other than you btw), and people like me occasionally inject some reality testing.
I'm saying I don't really think I need to do that anymore. I'm opting out of the cycle ^_^. Ground Hog day for me is over. At this point anyone who can benefit from what I call reality testing has already done so, I think. Anyone else wouldn't be impacted by any amount of simple information anyways.
So, I'll leave you to continue to debate here if you like, but I'm putting my money where my mouth is and going to read some other stuff. I really do enjoy these forums. /kowtow
Respectfully, how is it that you belittle others about discussing this yet in the same post you critisize the NGE just the same? Why is it bad for others yet OK when you do it?
IMO the conversations this topic has generated in these 4 years has made me a more informed consumer with respect to all MMO's. If people had followed the "get over it" advice some try to insist on others then some valuble information and thought provoking concepts would likely never resulted.
I for one like to read ArcAngel's posts for this very reason., and I hope that those who try to stop this type of dialogue are indeed the "vocal minority".
I "belittle others for discussing this" because IT'S THE SAME CONVERSATION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
NOTHING new comes out of any of these discussions. You could copy + paste half the posts in this thread into any of hundreds of others and nobody would be able to tell the difference.
Ever see the movie "Groundhog Day"? The vet refuge is the internet version of "Groundhog Day."
I think if you pause a moment, you'll see that I'm actually agreeing with you, to a large extent.
It may even be that you are so used to seeing vet posts a certain way, and responding a certain way that you don't realize your part in the cycle.
My post isn't just the same old thing. Try to set your expectations aside for a moment, if you would. It's a declaration that saying the "same old thing" is no longer necessary in my view.
Also, for interest sake, I"m highlighting where I think the cycle began. I see it beginning with a marketting push that seemed disconnected with reality. The same disconnected message continues to be shared (by a very few people, other than you btw), and people like me occasionally inject some reality testing.
I'm saying I don't really think I need to do that anymore. I'm opting out of the cycle ^_^. Ground Hog day for me is over. At this point anyone who can benefit from what I call reality testing has already done so, I think. Anyone else wouldn't be impacted by any amount of simple information anyways.
So, I'll leave you to continue to debate here if you like, but I'm putting my money where my mouth is and going to read some other stuff. I really do enjoy these forums. /kowtow
Oh, I can tell from YOUR responses that you do agree with me to a degree.
It's the other folks -- the ones who will continue to beat the subject into the turf long after you have ended the "reality testing" -- that I was responding to.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Respectfully, how is it that you belittle others about discussing this yet in the same post you critisize the NGE just the same? Why is it bad for others yet OK when you do it?
IMO the conversations this topic has generated in these 4 years has made me a more informed consumer with respect to all MMO's. If people had followed the "get over it" advice some try to insist on others then some valuble information and thought provoking concepts would likely never resulted.
I for one like to read ArcAngel's posts for this very reason., and I hope that those who try to stop this type of dialogue are indeed the "vocal minority".
I "belittle others for discussing this" because IT'S THE SAME CONVERSATION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
NOTHING new comes out of any of these discussions. You could copy + paste half the posts in this thread into any of hundreds of others and nobody would be able to tell the difference.
Ever see the movie "Groundhog Day"? The vet refuge is the internet version of "Groundhog Day."
Believe it or not but I can understand your frustration if your viewpoint is that these conversations are simply about the NGE. But I happen to think that by looking at things like the NGE we can get into some great debates regarding the indusrty as a whole. Personally I've learned a lot in these past 4 years and look I look forward to any further "revelations" in the future.
As I said I like to read Arc's posts, and this one was no different. It put a previous discussion into a very succinct end. But you came into this thread telling everyone to stop discussing "the same conversation over and over and over again" while at the exact same time you speak your own negative opinions on the NGE. You're doing exactly what you've told others not to do.
This might be the first time I have posted about SWG in a year or more.
I rejected the Jedi thing from day one, and I played for 2.5 years, more if you consider my NGE returns.
That being said, the graphics and such are now getting out-dated. They were very good for their time.
The "grinder mentality" that you speak of, is complete and utter (edit). In the years I played, in both the CU and pre-CU, not once did I ever feel like I was grinding anything. I mastered both combat and crafting professions in all sorts of combinations, and they always had a utility to other players around me.
The game is old now, the past is the past, it's dead. Seems you are the one who is slightly mistaken.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
So, all in all I guess Arc's OP is still pretty accurate if there is no reasonable rebuttle?
Anyone?