LOL, Reading many posts in this thread really is funny. The majority are Hard Core MMO players craving the World Sim experiance. By the nature of being historical and un-proven genera makes this a nich game much like the pirate games that have come. Slap on top of that the World Sim architech and you have another "job" and not a game. This is a really hard sell to a big company as a game. I could see SOE package it with all the other games of thier Station Pass but is still a hard sell.
What would be a positive selling feature or point to a MMO like this? It could be very popular with Asian markets as they seem to have faires and conventions around Wild West America like the U.S. has Renissance Fairs. There is a market but is it profitable?
Dana, your reputaion system sounds much like SWG's former FRS or the Current GCW system. WOW finally abandoned such a rank system (As I understand) as it proved very unpopular. Is there another method of experiance/advancement that would work?
ADDITIONAL:
When I talked to the devs on Pirates of the Burning Sea at last years SOE Fan Faire, I got a little info on the direction they wanted to take the game. As they indicated, the pirate genera was a bit limited for a strictly historical MMO and they wanted to expand the game with Mythical Sea Creatures in its future. Do you see this direction as a possible expansion of the Wild West MMO?
Think it's a wonderful idea, an open sandbox in a historcial wild west setting. I can imagine it being huge, but it would have to be skill based and not "classes" as this is a poor system in my eyes. Skill based systems are great. I play the roman historical MMO roma victor at the moment which is great, despite still having lots of content missing. Another historical game would be a hit.
Commander Jim
Were all living on knife's edge when will you fall off?
Westerns are like Star Trek games. Star Trek The Next Generation was successful due to the interesting characters and the types of plots episodes had (often about conflicting philosophies.)
Conversely, 95% of Star Trek games in the TNG time period are just about combat. And some of them were damn fun. But few of them were actually successful for the same reasons the series itself was successful.
So while I enjoy both Star Trek and Deadwood, the things that makes each series great *aren't* easily replicable in videogame format. Inevitably the thing that makes the western a western will be lost in translation to a game -- so you get games like the browser MMO linked earlier in the thread where my character's first 10 minutes was dominated by harvesting Tobacco and scaring away Crows (neither of which was a major activity in *any* western I've ever watched.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I dont know why PotBs keeps coming up in this thread. Pirates of the Burning Sea is a horrible game that is instance after instance after instance....and the combat is well, the most boring combat i have ever tried in a mmorpg.
Anywayz, We need to keep this thread bumped due to it being the absolute best thread ever on mmorpg.com
I would definitley play a Wild West MMO. However there are some discrepancies over the Myth and Reality of the Wild West. Here is an excerpt from an article written about it:
The lawlessness of the Wild West has been blown out of proportion. Ironically, the myth of the lawless West began before the period was over. Dime novels written in the East in the latter part of the 19th century exaggerated, or simply made up, stories about the crimes and criminals of the West. Hollywood later perpetuated the myth, feeding the public’s desire for excitement and adventure with stories of gunfights in the street and stagecoach robberies. The true story of the Old West is boring by comparison. Because of the need to hunt for food or protect themselves from wild animals, many people did have guns. However, fans of Hollywood westerns may be surprised to learn that many western towns had strict gun ordinances, making it illegal to carry guns in town. People entering the town were required to surrender their firearms to the sheriff. In fact, a story that has come to epitomize the violence of the Wild West involved a conflict over such a law. When Virgil Earp, along with his brothers Morgan and Wyatt and their friend Doc Holliday, confronted five cowboys in the city of Tombstone over carrying firearms in town, violence erupted. This incident became know as the gunfight at the OK corral. Yet it’s interesting to note that even in this most famous gunfight of the violent West, only three people were killed. In any modern city today, such a minor incident would probably not even be front page news.
So, was there violence in the mountains, plains, and frontier towns of the old west? Absolutely. Yet, as with any wilderness, a man was just as likely, if not more likely, to die from thirst, starvation, drowning, freezing, snakebite, falling off a mountain, falling off his horse, being attacked by animals, or any one of a hundred other things. Most of the settlers moving west, whether they were farmers, cowboys, miners, or some other profession, were honest and hardworking. Just as today, outlaws existed, yet in most places and for most people, violent crime was not the daily norm that popular entertainment would have us believe. As unromantic as it may be, relatively few people in the Wild West were involved in the gunfights and stagecoach robberies immortalized in the movies.
Furthermore, rarely did "Cowboys" even wear gun belts, they would normally keep them concealed somewhere on their body. ie. tucked in the waistline of their pants etc.. covered up by a coat.
Sorry for the novel above. So in reality a historical wild west mmo would probably be boring as hell but a hollywoodized version of the same mmo would be more along the lines of what people are looking for.
I would play this game as much as i could and if I could I might help make it but im only 15 so very good idea and hope to see it on the best buy shelf someday!
I know a wild west type mmo would work... but how bout making it something like "Firefly online" that space/western mmo would totally work... I dream of riverboats and steam boats... bar room brawls.. miners strikin gold in them their hills and crawlin in my jet/horse and goin to town cross breed space and western it would work for sure !!!!! IMO Kwosh
What you discribed, in a certain point of views, sounds like Eve Online. Reputation is one of the key features little promoted outside Eve itself. Gear is somewhat limited by your skill, but unlike other MMOs you can learn every skill in the game. Other the Eve's skill system, you have your Wild Wild West MMO.
I think what you described in your artilce may work and be fun, but who has the balls to make such a game? I for the life of me can't figure out why Developers won't make such a game with a classless or level based system. SWG(pre-CU), for as much as this has been used as an example in the past, is right about being the only real and fun non-level based sandbox type game I've played, Eve coming in a big second.
Your system is wanted by so many people, why won't someone make such a game?
I Reject your Reality and Substitute it with My Own!
One possible way around the Native American problem would be to go with an Old West-inspired track. Let it have the flavor, but not be historically precise or accurate. It's just a game after all. Make two fake tribes, one more friendly to the frontier people and one more hostile. Have diplomacy a skill track. That way, you don't have to worry as much as historical detail of specific tribes. But that could be just as offensive. What do y'all think?
I posted earlier, about a "Firefly" type western/sci-fi... I would definatly try a western mmo.. i am currently playing Istaria: tales of the gifted and I really like this mmo... its older but it has lots to do in it building etc... in a western setting this would be great IMO
There is one that is trying to get off the ground that has a lot of promise I think. Its called Frontier 1859
If we can get some following for it, it might get popular enough to get some funding. I wrote MMORPG.com about it a long time ago, but not sure they ever got it.. or maybe they dont think it's worth the time?
If there are issues with the historical elements..then it could mix it up a bit. Like a more detailed larger mmo version of the "GUN" video game...or like the western/horror cross genre RPG "Deadlands"....or something similar like that video game...where you are a vampiric gunfighter or you're hunting a vampiric gunfighter..I can't remember the name...just remember it was pretty entertaining.
edit: "Darkwatch" was the name I forgot...a "Darkwatch" with mmo elements would be cool.
There is one that is trying to get off the ground that has a lot of promise I think. Its called Frontier 1859 If we can get some following for it, it might get popular enough to get some funding. I wrote MMORPG.com about it a long time ago, but not sure they ever got it.. or maybe they dont think it's worth the time?
This one has been around for years and it does have tons of great ideas. I remember looking at thier site a few years ago.
The problem is they have no money!
AND thier 4 screenshots show nothing. After 5-10 years, you should have some nice screen shots which they dont. hard to get investors to invest without some sort of foundation in this field of online gaming.
This in fact makes me believe that ALL they have is an IDEA. The same IDEAS we have about a mmorpg set in the wild west.
I'd love to see a wild west MMO, or some variation based on that theme. Someone mentioned "Firefly" earlier and that would be a blast. Even better would be Steven King's "Dark Tower" series - now THAT would make for a fun game world, with wild west elements.
Call the western mmo Bounty of War (BoW) and add in bounty hunter system that has ranks like that of WoW ranks. You could have a warrant office with the list of people on the server that kill people that are 10 lvls below them and do the most kills being the most wanted and highest payoff with a warrant scroll you have to buy . also have gangs as one faction and posse's as other faction. also have compounds owned by the gangs or posse's that have a time on when they can get attacked similar to that of shadowbane player cities without the bane stone and and and and...
I think some good classes would be Bounty hunter/ Tracker / Outlaw / Mountaineer / Law enforcer(dependant on rank would make him deputy, sheriff etc) / Comanchee(warrior,chief dependant on rank0 and finally ninjas because they where during that time period and maybe a counter to ninja the all might warrior samurai. Also you would have professions for each class like bowsman,rifleman,gun slinger,sharpshooter, and i forgot what they called hand to hand people back then, etc
It should have player cities (saloons, hotels, general stores, private banks, livery stations) - mining towns - boom towns - that naturally spawn and grow while the commodity (gold, silver...) is still around to be mined - could be 6 months, a year or longer.
I'd love to see a game based on the Wild West, but I'd like to suggest that you might want to develope two different directions for the game, one based on historical precident, and the other based on fantasy. In the historical version, you would get the hard core realism of living in Deadwood or Tombstone or one of the other historical locations, going up against gunslingers, wild indians, and the usual run of the mill bad guys.
The other version would feature all the fantastical things that are so beloved of people, the zombies, magic slinging indian shaman, lost worlds of dinosaurs, and what have you. This version would feature all the historical accuracy (sorta) of the first version, but on steroids, you might say.
Were the famous gunslingers of old driven to their excesses of violence by the lawlessness of the land or was it something else, some terrible wendigo type curse or a demonic possession? Was witchcraft the true reason behind the relationship between Big Nose Kate and Doc Holiday? Did the Ghost Dance have a chance of success?
There is a rich fantastic history behind the true history of the old west. Not using it would be a terrible waste of potential gaming dramatics.
Read the post of a possible Wild West Game. Certainly agree that it would be a new and interesting product. However, the first thing that hit me was the open statement it had to be an FPS and free for all PvP. EVE has that, its own niche audience and does ok I'm sure. But it will never attract a mass audience. Especially noteworthy in the gentleman's description of loners being prey means a game that will lose new players very fast. (Check EVE stats for new player problems and losses).
There was a Wild West game PnP callrd "Deadlands" out for several years, owned now by the producers of "Savage Worlds" rpg games I believe. The premise was an alternate world western placed after a natural/supernatural disaster. It is great fun and includes everything you might want in an MMORPG. Be a wonderful base for an on-line game.
However here is the rub. If it is a FPS (First Person Shooter) and PvP oriented game I wouldn.t bother with it. Not to rub salt in the angry PvP wounds but why do you think WOW owns the on-line game industry? It is because they (mostly) allow an individual to become great and powerful and have fun (grinding/raids/arenas/Pvp options/groups etc. are integrated and about 15 million people like it, myself included). Pattern the western MMO after the business and demographics of WOW and you could have a pretty significant game.
Mr. Massey has a good idea and the overwhelming quantity of fantasy games and still not well done sci-fi games leaves wildwest gaming an attractive option. For many years westerns have held the imagination and interest of a large section of the world's entertainment, not simply the USA. A successful MMO needs a large and generally stable population of players that will financially support the long term existance of the company. Those players are like myself, not particularly interested in PvP or FPS, just relaxing and having fun. We stay and play and pay and, like in WOW, support the wilder and usually younger gameboy and x-box killmeisters. There is no reason not to make us both happy.
I am old, Mr. Massey, and my hand-eye reflexes are not what they used to be. Please consider that the millions who are more physically and mentally attuned to WOW type play can be a great financial asset to a game that includes, not excludes, our type of fun. Together we could support a great western themed game with a wide player base.
In conclusion I happily support Mr. Massey's suggestion in general if not in a particular form. I am a former PNP game designer for TSR and Pacesetter Games. I am now an enthusiatic on-line gamer. I thank you folks for reading. I always carry a High Flame Resistance. Garry Spiegle
Comments
LOL, Reading many posts in this thread really is funny. The majority are Hard Core MMO players craving the World Sim experiance. By the nature of being historical and un-proven genera makes this a nich game much like the pirate games that have come. Slap on top of that the World Sim architech and you have another "job" and not a game. This is a really hard sell to a big company as a game. I could see SOE package it with all the other games of thier Station Pass but is still a hard sell.
What would be a positive selling feature or point to a MMO like this? It could be very popular with Asian markets as they seem to have faires and conventions around Wild West America like the U.S. has Renissance Fairs. There is a market but is it profitable?
Dana, your reputaion system sounds much like SWG's former FRS or the Current GCW system. WOW finally abandoned such a rank system (As I understand) as it proved very unpopular. Is there another method of experiance/advancement that would work?
ADDITIONAL:
When I talked to the devs on Pirates of the Burning Sea at last years SOE Fan Faire, I got a little info on the direction they wanted to take the game. As they indicated, the pirate genera was a bit limited for a strictly historical MMO and they wanted to expand the game with Mythical Sea Creatures in its future. Do you see this direction as a possible expansion of the Wild West MMO?
Think it's a wonderful idea, an open sandbox in a historcial wild west setting. I can imagine it being huge, but it would have to be skill based and not "classes" as this is a poor system in my eyes. Skill based systems are great. I play the roman historical MMO roma victor at the moment which is great, despite still having lots of content missing. Another historical game would be a hit.
Commander Jim
Were all living on knife's edge when will you fall off?
Westerns are like Star Trek games. Star Trek The Next Generation was successful due to the interesting characters and the types of plots episodes had (often about conflicting philosophies.)
Conversely, 95% of Star Trek games in the TNG time period are just about combat. And some of them were damn fun. But few of them were actually successful for the same reasons the series itself was successful.
So while I enjoy both Star Trek and Deadwood, the things that makes each series great *aren't* easily replicable in videogame format. Inevitably the thing that makes the western a western will be lost in translation to a game -- so you get games like the browser MMO linked earlier in the thread where my character's first 10 minutes was dominated by harvesting Tobacco and scaring away Crows (neither of which was a major activity in *any* western I've ever watched.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I dont know why PotBs keeps coming up in this thread. Pirates of the Burning Sea is a horrible game that is instance after instance after instance....and the combat is well, the most boring combat i have ever tried in a mmorpg.
Anywayz, We need to keep this thread bumped due to it being the absolute best thread ever on mmorpg.com
I would definitley play a Wild West MMO. However there are some discrepancies over the Myth and Reality of the Wild West. Here is an excerpt from an article written about it:
The lawlessness of the Wild West has been blown out of proportion. Ironically, the myth of the lawless West began before the period was over. Dime novels written in the East in the latter part of the 19th century exaggerated, or simply made up, stories about the crimes and criminals of the West. Hollywood later perpetuated the myth, feeding the public’s desire for excitement and adventure with stories of gunfights in the street and stagecoach robberies. The true story of the Old West is boring by comparison. Because of the need to hunt for food or protect themselves from wild animals, many people did have guns. However, fans of Hollywood westerns may be surprised to learn that many western towns had strict gun ordinances, making it illegal to carry guns in town. People entering the town were required to surrender their firearms to the sheriff. In fact, a story that has come to epitomize the violence of the Wild West involved a conflict over such a law. When Virgil Earp, along with his brothers Morgan and Wyatt and their friend Doc Holliday, confronted five cowboys in the city of Tombstone over carrying firearms in town, violence erupted. This incident became know as the gunfight at the OK corral. Yet it’s interesting to note that even in this most famous gunfight of the violent West, only three people were killed. In any modern city today, such a minor incident would probably not even be front page news.
So, was there violence in the mountains, plains, and frontier towns of the old west? Absolutely. Yet, as with any wilderness, a man was just as likely, if not more likely, to die from thirst, starvation, drowning, freezing, snakebite, falling off a mountain, falling off his horse, being attacked by animals, or any one of a hundred other things. Most of the settlers moving west, whether they were farmers, cowboys, miners, or some other profession, were honest and hardworking. Just as today, outlaws existed, yet in most places and for most people, violent crime was not the daily norm that popular entertainment would have us believe. As unromantic as it may be, relatively few people in the Wild West were involved in the gunfights and stagecoach robberies immortalized in the movies.
Furthermore, rarely did "Cowboys" even wear gun belts, they would normally keep them concealed somewhere on their body. ie. tucked in the waistline of their pants etc.. covered up by a coat.
Sorry for the novel above. So in reality a historical wild west mmo would probably be boring as hell but a hollywoodized version of the same mmo would be more along the lines of what people are looking for.
link to article http://www.buzzle.com/articles/the-wild-west-of-myth-and-reality.html
also here is another link to another wild west game online.
http://www.wildwestonline.com/
I would play this game as much as i could and if I could I might help make it but im only 15 so very good idea and hope to see it on the best buy shelf someday!
I know a wild west type mmo would work... but how bout making it something like "Firefly online" that space/western mmo would totally work... I dream of riverboats and steam boats... bar room brawls.. miners strikin gold in them their hills and crawlin in my jet/horse and goin to town
cross breed space and western it would work for sure !!!!! IMO Kwosh
What you discribed, in a certain point of views, sounds like Eve Online. Reputation is one of the key features little promoted outside Eve itself. Gear is somewhat limited by your skill, but unlike other MMOs you can learn every skill in the game. Other the Eve's skill system, you have your Wild Wild West MMO.
I think what you described in your artilce may work and be fun, but who has the balls to make such a game? I for the life of me can't figure out why Developers won't make such a game with a classless or level based system. SWG(pre-CU), for as much as this has been used as an example in the past, is right about being the only real and fun non-level based sandbox type game I've played, Eve coming in a big second.
Your system is wanted by so many people, why won't someone make such a game?
I Reject your Reality and Substitute it with My Own!
Thats what we are waiting for. Not just for a Wild West mmorpg but for many other different styles of GOOD non WoW style mmorpgs.
So if any DEVELOPERS are reading......You guys need to grow a pair......plain and simple.
Get off the cookie cutter band wagon and grow a pair.
Only offensive to the liberal players..
I posted earlier, about a "Firefly" type western/sci-fi... I would definatly try a western mmo.. i am currently playing Istaria: tales of the gifted and I really like this mmo... its older but it has lots to do in it building etc... in a western setting this would be great IMO
This is a wonderful artical on the Wild West as an MMO and what would be the trouble with it.
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/the-wild-west-of-myth-and-reality.html
What has come before? Well, games that come to mind are:
Lucas Arts "Outlaws"
Activisions "Gun"
Those are good sources of what players want to capture in feel.
There is one that is trying to get off the ground that has a lot of promise I think. Its called Frontier 1859
If we can get some following for it, it might get popular enough to get some funding. I wrote MMORPG.com about it a long time ago, but not sure they ever got it.. or maybe they dont think it's worth the time?
---
Xen of Onslaught
Is it just me....or does the guy in the thumbnail for this article look like Davey Jones from "Pirates of the Carribbean" lol
If there are issues with the historical elements..then it could mix it up a bit. Like a more detailed larger mmo version of the "GUN" video game...or like the western/horror cross genre RPG "Deadlands"....or something similar like that video game...where you are a vampiric gunfighter or you're hunting a vampiric gunfighter..I can't remember the name...just remember it was pretty entertaining.
edit: "Darkwatch" was the name I forgot...a "Darkwatch" with mmo elements would be cool.
This one has been around for years and it does have tons of great ideas. I remember looking at thier site a few years ago.
The problem is they have no money!
AND thier 4 screenshots show nothing. After 5-10 years, you should have some nice screen shots which they dont. hard to get investors to invest without some sort of foundation in this field of online gaming.
This in fact makes me believe that ALL they have is an IDEA. The same IDEAS we have about a mmorpg set in the wild west.
I'd love to see a wild west MMO, or some variation based on that theme. Someone mentioned "Firefly" earlier and that would be a blast. Even better would be Steven King's "Dark Tower" series - now THAT would make for a fun game world, with wild west elements.
I personally like skill based but a wild west mmorpg could do extremely well with a class based system.
If you were the developer and had to design 12 classes to start with, what would they be?
I like this idea of an Wild West MMO. I've wanted one for years, and always wondered why nobody ever made one.
Call the western mmo Bounty of War (BoW) and add in bounty hunter system that has ranks like that of WoW ranks. You could have a warrant office with the list of people on the server that kill people that are 10 lvls below them and do the most kills being the most wanted and highest payoff with a warrant scroll you have to buy . also have gangs as one faction and posse's as other faction. also have compounds owned by the gangs or posse's that have a time on when they can get attacked similar to that of shadowbane player cities without the bane stone
and and and and...
I think some good classes would be Bounty hunter/ Tracker / Outlaw / Mountaineer / Law enforcer(dependant on rank would make him deputy, sheriff etc) / Comanchee(warrior,chief dependant on rank0 and finally ninjas because they where during that time period and maybe a counter to ninja the all might warrior samurai. Also you would have professions for each class like bowsman,rifleman,gun slinger,sharpshooter, and i forgot what they called hand to hand people back then, etc
It should have player cities (saloons, hotels, general stores, private banks, livery stations) - mining towns - boom towns - that naturally spawn and grow while the commodity (gold, silver...) is still around to be mined - could be 6 months, a year or longer.
I'd love to see a game based on the Wild West, but I'd like to suggest that you might want to develope two different directions for the game, one based on historical precident, and the other based on fantasy. In the historical version, you would get the hard core realism of living in Deadwood or Tombstone or one of the other historical locations, going up against gunslingers, wild indians, and the usual run of the mill bad guys.
The other version would feature all the fantastical things that are so beloved of people, the zombies, magic slinging indian shaman, lost worlds of dinosaurs, and what have you. This version would feature all the historical accuracy (sorta) of the first version, but on steroids, you might say.
Were the famous gunslingers of old driven to their excesses of violence by the lawlessness of the land or was it something else, some terrible wendigo type curse or a demonic possession? Was witchcraft the true reason behind the relationship between Big Nose Kate and Doc Holiday? Did the Ghost Dance have a chance of success?
There is a rich fantastic history behind the true history of the old west. Not using it would be a terrible waste of potential gaming dramatics.
Read the post of a possible Wild West Game. Certainly agree that it would be a new and interesting product. However, the first thing that hit me was the open statement it had to be an FPS and free for all PvP. EVE has that, its own niche audience and does ok I'm sure. But it will never attract a mass audience. Especially noteworthy in the gentleman's description of loners being prey means a game that will lose new players very fast. (Check EVE stats for new player problems and losses).
There was a Wild West game PnP callrd "Deadlands" out for several years, owned now by the producers of "Savage Worlds" rpg games I believe. The premise was an alternate world western placed after a natural/supernatural disaster. It is great fun and includes everything you might want in an MMORPG. Be a wonderful base for an on-line game.
However here is the rub. If it is a FPS (First Person Shooter) and PvP oriented game I wouldn.t bother with it. Not to rub salt in the angry PvP wounds but why do you think WOW owns the on-line game industry? It is because they (mostly) allow an individual to become great and powerful and have fun (grinding/raids/arenas/Pvp options/groups etc. are integrated and about 15 million people like it, myself included). Pattern the western MMO after the business and demographics of WOW and you could have a pretty significant game.
Mr. Massey has a good idea and the overwhelming quantity of fantasy games and still not well done sci-fi games leaves wildwest gaming an attractive option. For many years westerns have held the imagination and interest of a large section of the world's entertainment, not simply the USA. A successful MMO needs a large and generally stable population of players that will financially support the long term existance of the company. Those players are like myself, not particularly interested in PvP or FPS, just relaxing and having fun. We stay and play and pay and, like in WOW, support the wilder and usually younger gameboy and x-box killmeisters. There is no reason not to make us both happy.
I am old, Mr. Massey, and my hand-eye reflexes are not what they used to be. Please consider that the millions who are more physically and mentally attuned to WOW type play can be a great financial asset to a game that includes, not excludes, our type of fun. Together we could support a great western themed game with a wide player base.
In conclusion I happily support Mr. Massey's suggestion in general if not in a particular form. I am a former PNP game designer for TSR and Pacesetter Games. I am now an enthusiatic on-line gamer. I thank you folks for reading. I always carry a High Flame Resistance. Garry Spiegle