Amen to that! They even talked about how, when you kill all the carnivors of a certain forest the herbivore population are going to take overhand. I know they said that they weren't going to include that at launch, but just stating it means that they have put some thought into the mechanism, and if and when they include it, THAT will be the perfect mmorpg for me.
That sounds awesome as well. The whole idea of a developing, changing world is ace in my book. So many mmorpgs take the easy way out to make the world static and only governed by day and night cycles and respawn timers.
When the world and it's non-player population is dynamic you never know what is around the next corner. That will generate some disapointments; ("I swear you gusy! It was here yesterday!"), but also many "WTF!" moments and it gives incentives to also visit places where you have been before.
Most mmorpgs I played have a world devided strictly in zones tied to player level ranges with not much incentives to be in places outside your level range (a.k.a. the biggest part of the world), in MO, where you were merily picking flowers yesterday, a tribe of trolls might have moved in this morning. I really love that unpredictability
Originally posted by Kyleran Interesting slip of the tongue. Review (and others) have stated the game is firmly in beta and due to release sometime soon [TM]. i doubt it will release any time this year myself, but the review did make it sound interesting. Like others, I'm not a fan of allowing thieving, unless thieves suffer serious consequences like they would in the real world. FFA PVP everywhere makes me have doubts also, unless the consequences system is amazing and beyond anything I've ever seen the game will devolve into a gankfest. To the aplogists who say I'll need to re-learn how to play MMO's and what not, I say you sound exactly like the Darkfall folks and we all pretty much know how that game's turning out. We'll see how it goes, and I'm sure some folks will thrill to the game's mechanics, but probably not me.
It's not the thieve that made something bad, because he wanted to play as a thieve/rogue, but the player, who let him do it.
"consequences system" is simple. It doesn't have to have billions of restrictions. It should rather have only couple, to make players think before doing things considered as unacceptable.
Do not forget about FF, cause everyone whines around about zerging and other shit like this.
-- /thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
Every time i read someone post (I was looking faward to that game) What is coming next? Carebear request or they still get concerned about the third person view. Well... MO is not for everyone so go back to wow and dont make my game become a trammel like UO.
There will never be any insurence, 3rd person view will never be implemented, stealing will be balanced, but it will stay.
Every time i read someone post (I was looking faward to that game) What is coming next? Carebear request or they still get concerned about the third person view. Well... MO is not for everyone so go back to wow and dont make my game become a trammel like UO. There will never be any insurence, 3rd person view will never be implemented, stealing will be balanced, but it will stay.
Posts like this just get me. They show complete ignorance of what has happened in past MMO's. All I can say, boy are you in for a rude surprise. The playerbase has gotten a lot worse than when UO was around pre trammel. It was not trammel that hurt UO, it was the Age of Shadows, where they made equipment determine the out come of fights rather than skill.
Without consequences, servers self destruct. Too many people take advantage of gaps in rules and the rest just say to heck with it.
So for the ignorant, I reiterate, without decent consequences you end up with a dead game. Any knowledgable developer knows that and I am sure from what I have seen so far of this game that will be true here.
I wish them luck, I would like to give this game a try. Darkfall is such a disaster waiting to happen because of completely clueless developers.
Every time i read someone post (I was looking faward to that game) What is coming next? Carebear request or they still get concerned about the third person view. Well... MO is not for everyone so go back to wow and dont make my game become a trammel like UO. There will never be any insurence, 3rd person view will never be implemented, stealing will be balanced, but it will stay.
Posts like this just get me. They show complete ignorance of what has happened in past MMO's. All I can say, boy are you in for a rude surprise. The playerbase has gotten a lot worse than when UO was around pre trammel. It was not trammel that hurt UO, it was the Age of Shadows, where they made equipment determine the out come of fights rather than skill.
Without consequences, servers self destruct. Too many people take advantage of gaps in rules and the rest just say to heck with it.
So for the ignorant, I reiterate, without decent consequences you end up with a dead game. Any knowledgable developer knows that and I am sure from what I have seen so far of this game that will be true here.
I wish them luck, I would like to give this game a try. Darkfall is such a disaster waiting to happen because of completely clueless developers.
This.
What a shame, this game looked like the MMO of my dreams until I read about the full loot, completely open PvP, and thieving. Have sandbox game developers learned nothing? The sort of player that this sort of open PvP/PvP looting system attracts are the rabid frothing-at-the-mouth griefers who enjoy making the game unplayable for anyone not in their "1337 z3rg clanz0r" and anyone who doesn't travel with an army. We need a sandbox game that appeals to more than the average PvP griefer.
The flagging system won't matter. People will exploit game mechanics to get away with whatever they want, whenever they want. That's just the maturity level of the PvP griefer crowd that this sort of system attracts. Don't believe me? Think i'm just trolling? Go play Darkfall, or Age of Conan open PvP server, or even a WoW PvP server. Any of those will have stealthed rogues ganking and backstabbing and stealing from you just because they can get a kick out of it, and just because they have nothing better to do. Any of those will have groups of immature asshats camping instance entrances and spamming "lolcopter you all sux your mom is fat i pwn you etc etc" in global chat while they zerg anyone who tries to get in. Any of those will have a group of immature asshats who hang around at the side of a well traveled road like a pack of starving animals waiting to zerg, kill, and usualy corpse camp/grief, anyone unlucky enough to cross. And these types of players are -everywhere-. Most of them -are- like that.
With full looting to stack on top of it all? Wow, good luck accomplishing -anything- -ever- outside of a zerg guild. You'll end up with a few barbaric zerg guilds just randomly killing people and looting them in the end, and drive all those players who want no part of griefing away from the game entirely. And not a lot of players playing your game.
So let the handful of rabid griefers go at it in the PvP servers, and add a more realistic PvP system as part of a different server. The world isn't ready to responsibly and maturely handle a fully open PvP system, let alone PvP looting. Past MMO's have proven that fully open PvP -always- degrades into total anarchy and gankfests.
Every time i read someone post (I was looking faward to that game) What is coming next? Carebear request or they still get concerned about the third person view. Well... MO is not for everyone so go back to wow and dont make my game become a trammel like UO. There will never be any insurence, 3rd person view will never be implemented, stealing will be balanced, but it will stay.
Posts like this just get me. They show complete ignorance of what has happened in past MMO's. All I can say, boy are you in for a rude surprise. The playerbase has gotten a lot worse than when UO was around pre trammel. It was not trammel that hurt UO, it was the Age of Shadows, where they made equipment determine the out come of fights rather than skill.
Without consequences, servers self destruct. Too many people take advantage of gaps in rules and the rest just say to heck with it.
So for the ignorant, I reiterate, without decent consequences you end up with a dead game. Any knowledgable developer knows that and I am sure from what I have seen so far of this game that will be true here.
I wish them luck, I would like to give this game a try. Darkfall is such a disaster waiting to happen because of completely clueless developers.
This.
What a shame, this game looked like the MMO of my dreams until I read about the full loot, completely open PvP, and thieving. Have sandbox game developers learned nothing? The sort of player that this sort of open PvP/PvP looting system attracts are the rabid frothing-at-the-mouth griefers who enjoy making the game unplayable for anyone not in their "1337 z3rg clanz0r" and anyone who doesn't travel with an army. We need a sandbox game that appeals to more than the average PvP griefer.
The flagging system won't matter. People will exploit game mechanics to get away with whatever they want, whenever they want. That's just the maturity level of the PvP griefer crowd that this sort of system attracts. Don't believe me? Think i'm just trolling? Go play Darkfall, or Age of Conan open PvP server, or even a WoW PvP server. Any of those will have stealthed rogues ganking and backstabbing and stealing from you just because they can get a kick out of it, and just because they have nothing better to do. Any of those will have groups of immature asshats camping instance entrances and spamming "lolcopter you all sux your mom is fat i pwn you etc etc" in global chat while they zerg anyone who tries to get in. Any of those will have a group of immature asshats who hang around at the side of a well traveled road like a pack of starving animals waiting to zerg, kill, and usualy corpse camp/grief, anyone unlucky enough to cross. And these types of players are -everywhere-. Most of them -are- like that.
With full looting to stack on top of it all? Wow, good luck accomplishing -anything- -ever- outside of a zerg guild. You'll end up with a few barbaric zerg guilds just randomly killing people and looting them in the end, and drive all those players who want no part of griefing away from the game entirely. And not a lot of players playing your game.
So let the handful of rabid griefers go at it in the PvP servers, and add a more realistic PvP system as part of a different server. The world isn't ready to responsibly and maturely handle a fully open PvP system, let alone PvP looting. Past MMO's have proven that fully open PvP -always- degrades into total anarchy and gankfests.
1) There are no instance entrances. If you can go into a dungeon, so can everyone else, into the very same dungeon with you and everyone in it.
2) Zerg's work well when there is unbalanced AoE mechanics and no friendly fire. MO will have friendly fire. Careful with that zerg Eugene. You could do more harm than good.
3) gear has weight. You can only carry so much much gear before you cant move. Sure in the early days people will loot everything, just like Fallout 3. But you learn to drop the plates and cups and mugs and only loot the things you want.
4) Some people are tired of waiting for the world to change. These people are the ones trying to make the change.
5) There is no global chat. They have talked about your first 20 hours (in game) you cannot be attacked. So the first 20 hours is your "tutorial" time to get your wits about you.
6) This game isnt for everyone. We can all argue back and forth of what we think makes a great MMO. The developers of this game created it with the idea in mind that it is for a niche group. They are making their game the way they always wanted a game to work. They know it wont appeal to everyone and are not looking to be the next massively great thing. They want to be the next great thing to the player niche that this game will appeal to.
I understand where you are coming from. I have seen the things you have described. I also have heard the Dev's in this game talk about those very issues. IMO they dont want a giant gank-fest. They want a world where people have choices. Instead of linear paths that every single person playing the game does the same thing. This is their baby, without publishers pushing their hand one way or another. This is the game they wanted to always play themselves when they imagined a game. The game isnt even released (about to enter closed beta) and the mob and pitch forks are out in mass numbers without seeing how the game play even works together or even venturing to their website to have a more than general clue of mechanics.
Amen to that! They even talked about how, when you kill all the carnivors of a certain forest the herbivore population are going to take overhand. I know they said that they weren't going to include that at launch, but just stating it means that they have put some thought into the mechanism, and if and when they include it, THAT will be the perfect mmorpg for me.
That sounds awesome as well. The whole idea of a developing, changing world is ace in my book. So many mmorpgs take the easy way out to make the world static and only governed by day and night cycles and respawn timers.
When the world and it's non-player population is dynamic you never know what is around the next corner. That will generate some disapointments; ("I swear you gusy! It was here yesterday!"), but also many "WTF!" moments and it gives incentives to also visit places where you have been before.
Most mmorpgs I played have a world devided strictly in zones tied to player level ranges with not much incentives to be in places outside your level range (a.k.a. the biggest part of the world), in MO, where you were merily picking flowers yesterday, a tribe of trolls might have moved in this morning. I really love that unpredictability
That, along with your previous post, sounds great.
I know a lot of people are worried about the pvp/looting, but overall the game seems really interesting, and I can't wait to try it. The only other game I'm this interested in is Chronicles of Spellborn, which I'm waiting a few months to try.
Here is my biggest issue with an open game like this: open PvP. Right now, I am playing in an RP-PvP Age of Conan which is pretty open, anyone can fight anybody. Right out of the gate, I step onto the White Sands Isle and get ganked by people several levels higher than I. Now, lets say someone in MO has played for a long time and knows what they are doing and have their skills trained while I step right out of a small village and they attack me. Will MO's gameplay allow me a fighting chance to beat said person? If so, then why do I even need to train skills? Why not just kill people with my lowbie sword all day long? If not, then it will just be another GIANT gankfest just like more open pvp games.
The major issue with open pvp is there is no way to tell a player, "Hey, this is a PvP game, but there is no reason to just kill and slaugher lowbies and people who can not fight back just because the game allows it" but then say "This is a PvP game! Lets slaughter people!". From the many pvp games I have played, Shadowbane and EQ (Vallon Zek Racial PvP) was the only ones that seemed to work for me.
I liked Vallon Zek because you knew who you could count on. I am human, I see a barbarian, lets group up! Oh there is a dwarf over there, be careful! You knew your enemies and allies (now sometimes people played the Lightie vs Darkie but that is different and is a server community thing).
Shadowbane I really do not have a clear memory of why it worked. I remember several times playing an Ireki (sp?) and learning a language that someone developed specifically for them. I was amazed by the community there. But from what I remember, that game was totally open also. But yet I do not remember being ganked.
There was an article that was recently published on a website, an interview with the head director for Age of Conan. What he said was that the issue with open PvP now days is that players and communities are different now. Back then, sure, people would kill you on sight, but rarely would they kill you again if they saw you. And a lot of times, they would fight fights that made sense with the game. Now days, people just want to kill you because the game will let us. They do not care about anything except just themselves and not their characters or others in game.
But, like every other company that has produced a MMO that allows PvP, how do you make it fair but fun. Maybe MO will find that sweet spot, if not, maybe a future company might find it. I loved the thrill of world PvP. Its the incesent killing of every person you can see for a mile just because the game allows it that has left a bitter taste in my otherwise sweet mouth.
Edit: I also looking foward to the openess of how the world will be in terms of non-PvP related stuff. Hopefully it will bring me back to my old EQ days of just running around in the world looking for interesting areas and meeting friendly, and not so friendly, people and creatures, it be AI controlled or player controlled.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
Aye, Zyllos. Your fear of this becoming a ffa gankfest is shared by many people who are also attracted to all the other great aspects of this game.
I do think the devs are trying to prevent this from happening though. They are going out of their way to keep the total freedom but make the consequences realistic, so people will think twice before they attack or rob someone in towns and cities and really have to weigh their chances.
They have devised this pretty complex flagging system to deal with random pvp and theft in different situations and when you are being attacked or getting stolen from in towns you are able to call the guards on that person. You can also do this on people who only assist the 'criminal' with friendly spells for instance.
Also the first 20 hours you play on a new character you will be flagged as 'fledgling' and unable to be attacked (unless you are a bold fledgling and do nasty stuff yourself; than your invulnerability flag will be promptly removed). I also understood you can remove this flag if you don't fancy being invulnerable as a new player.
Coupled to the flagging system is a character linked token counter where you get to place a token on those who killed you; (but you can choose not to) if that person assembled 5 of those murder tokens in a certain time period he will be labeled a murderer with certain nasty consequences. If I remember correctly the cooldown is around 20 hours so it could be a pretty hefty price to pay for a PK'er in some occasions. I also read something about jails recently
Anyway, we will have to see how it pans out; it's pretty hard to balance realism and freedom in regard to world pvp but they try to accomodate both for lawfull & good as well as the evil / chaotic kind of player. We shall see
Here is my biggest issue with an open game like this: open PvP. Right now, I am playing in an RP-PvP Age of Conan which is pretty open, anyone can fight anybody. Right out of the gate, I step onto the White Sands Isle and get ganked by people several levels higher than I. Now, lets say someone in MO has played for a long time and knows what they are doing and have their skills trained while I step right out of a small village and they attack me. Will MO's gameplay allow me a fighting chance to beat said person? If so, then why do I even need to train skills? Why not just kill people with my lowbie sword all day long? If not, then it will just be another GIANT gankfest just like more open pvp games. The major issue with open pvp is there is no way to tell a player, "Hey, this is a PvP game, but there is no reason to just kill and slaugher lowbies and people who can not fight back just because the game allows it" but then say "This is a PvP game! Lets slaughter people!". From the many pvp games I have played, Shadowbane and EQ (Vallon Zek Racial PvP) was the only ones that seemed to work for me. I liked Vallon Zek because you knew who you could count on. I am human, I see a barbarian, lets group up! Oh there is a dwarf over there, be careful! You knew your enemies and allies (now sometimes people played the Lightie vs Darkie but that is different and is a server community thing). Shadowbane I really do not have a clear memory of why it worked. I remember several times playing an Ireki (sp?) and learning a language that someone developed specifically for them. I was amazed by the community there. But from what I remember, that game was totally open also. But yet I do not remember being ganked. There was an article that was recently published on a website, an interview with the head director for Age of Conan. What he said was that the issue with open PvP now days is that players and communities are different now. Back then, sure, people would kill you on sight, but rarely would they kill you again if they saw you. And a lot of times, they would fight fights that made sense with the game. Now days, people just want to kill you because the game will let us. They do not care about anything except just themselves and not their characters or others in game. But, like every other company that has produced a MMO that allows PvP, how do you make it fair but fun. Maybe MO will find that sweet spot, if not, maybe a future company might find it. I loved the thrill of world PvP. Its the incesent killing of every person you can see for a mile just because the game allows it that has left a bitter taste in my otherwise sweet mouth. Edit: I also looking foward to the openess of how the world will be in terms of non-PvP related stuff. Hopefully it will bring me back to my old EQ days of just running around in the world looking for interesting areas and meeting friendly, and not so friendly, people and creatures, it be AI controlled or player controlled.
MO will have a flagging system, which AoC has not, in AoC, i believe in the open pvp server you can kill anyone without facing any consequence, in MO you are flagged Red (KOS) for 20 hours of game time when you "murder" someone, and the timer is cumulative.
The aim of this game is not to be a giant gank fest, that's not what they mean by open pvp. it means that In MO you are not restricted by stupid rules which says : "you cannot hit that target", actually you can hit anyone, but then you have to face consequences. It's the same for FFA, FFA here doesn't mean it will be a persistant deathmatch,it means that you have no "built-in" ennemies and friend. You make your own ennemies and friends, your choice.
MO is about freedom, but freedom doesn't necessary mean chaos.
About the fairness of pvp, the pvp-related skills are quite easy to train "in 2 weeks" said the devs. So why why having skills at all ? It's about choosing a playstyle, you can't be a ninja-mage-in-full-plate-with-a-giant-claymore but you are not restricted by rigid "classes". It's a bit as if each player created its own class by picking the skills he want.
Basically like Ultima Online but in 3D. There, I said it and without walls and walls of text.
That's how I'm hoping it essentially turns out, granted it won't have the millions of items you can interact with and probably better AI for any mobs, but if it gets the UO basics nailed down then they'll be onto a winner.
That's how I'm hoping it essentially turns out, granted it won't have the millions of items you can interact with and probably better AI for any mobs, but if it gets the UO basics nailed down then they'll be onto a winner.
Bringing up the AI in UO reminded me of the blade wall in the dungeon (can't remember the name) with the ogres and the giant tables.. Cast blade spirit (I think that was the name) and then run to the other side of the table and watch the ogres get taken down. For those that don't know: Ogres were very powerful and could kill you with just a few swipes, even if you were in full plate.
I remember going in there the first time they fixed it so they wouldn't get stuck.... About 6 ogres cornered me and smashed my face in before I could recall out. Took a good hour and 4 of my friends helping to get all of my inventory back. One of the bastards took my mandrake root though... (the ogre, not my friends)
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I'm all for ffa PvP, but what's to stop a group of 20-30 people from camping inside a town and killing and robbing everyone. The guards better be pretty damn badass, I would hope there is a major deterrence from crime occuring within a town that only the most bravest or foolish would dare try and get away with it.
I'm all for ffa PvP, but what's to stop a group of 20-30 people from camping inside a town and killing and robbing everyone. The guards better be pretty damn badass, I would hope there is a major deterrence from crime occuring within a town that only the most bravest or foolish would dare try and get away with it.
In UO guards were "pretty damn badass" as you put it. So if MO goes with the UO style guards, there would be no way someone would survive once the guards were called.
Personally I always felt the UO guards were a bit too much. One hit and you died. I would rather see at least SOME way to escape. Not by killing the guards, mind you, but by running away or rooting them (if there is going to be roots in the game). Of course the guards should have the utilities to counter this tactic, but at least it would give a very small chance to get away.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I'm all for ffa PvP, but what's to stop a group of 20-30 people from camping inside a town and killing and robbing everyone. The guards better be pretty damn badass, I would hope there is a major deterrence from crime occuring within a town that only the most bravest or foolish would dare try and get away with it.
Im sure guards will be badass, and if you kill too many blues, youll be so deep in stat loss that next time you die, youll be reduced to newbie.
I'm all for ffa PvP, but what's to stop a group of 20-30 people from camping inside a town and killing and robbing everyone. The guards better be pretty damn badass, I would hope there is a major deterrence from crime occuring within a town that only the most bravest or foolish would dare try and get away with it.
Davo, look at your avatar quote. Within that you shall find your answer.
The deterrence is you and your friends and the others who finally decide to step-up and do something. Remember, this game is going to be about your personal skill and not fully reliant upon the "Holy Handgrenade of Antiok" or something that a guild has farmed endlessly so as to provide a significant advantage.
People who go "red" are taking as much a chance at losing their gear as those who are being ambushed. Think of this.. do you think it was good for your health, or a wise decision, to roam the countryside with your wares that you wanted to sell the following day in a large city? Or, was it equally as good for you to just, haphazardly, ambush a merchant caravan that is protected by guildies and perhaps a merc or ten?
There's alot more here to come so you might want to keep an open mind. I too hate the zerg aspect of some games and the destruction that it creates to some subscribers "gameplay." But I feel quite confident that Henrik, Mats and the rest of the dev team have this in their minds continuously.
Comments
That sounds awesome as well. The whole idea of a developing, changing world is ace in my book. So many mmorpgs take the easy way out to make the world static and only governed by day and night cycles and respawn timers.
When the world and it's non-player population is dynamic you never know what is around the next corner. That will generate some disapointments; ("I swear you gusy! It was here yesterday!"), but also many "WTF!" moments and it gives incentives to also visit places where you have been before.
Most mmorpgs I played have a world devided strictly in zones tied to player level ranges with not much incentives to be in places outside your level range (a.k.a. the biggest part of the world), in MO, where you were merily picking flowers yesterday, a tribe of trolls might have moved in this morning. I really love that unpredictability
My brand new bloggity blog.
"consequences system" is simple. It doesn't have to have billions of restrictions. It should rather have only couple, to make players think before doing things considered as unacceptable.
Do not forget about FF, cause everyone whines around about zerging and other shit like this.
--
/thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
Every time i read someone post (I was looking faward to that game) What is coming next? Carebear request or they still get concerned about the third person view. Well... MO is not for everyone so go back to wow and dont make my game become a trammel like UO.
There will never be any insurence, 3rd person view will never be implemented, stealing will be balanced, but it will stay.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
Posts like this just get me. They show complete ignorance of what has happened in past MMO's. All I can say, boy are you in for a rude surprise. The playerbase has gotten a lot worse than when UO was around pre trammel. It was not trammel that hurt UO, it was the Age of Shadows, where they made equipment determine the out come of fights rather than skill.
Without consequences, servers self destruct. Too many people take advantage of gaps in rules and the rest just say to heck with it.
So for the ignorant, I reiterate, without decent consequences you end up with a dead game. Any knowledgable developer knows that and I am sure from what I have seen so far of this game that will be true here.
I wish them luck, I would like to give this game a try. Darkfall is such a disaster waiting to happen because of completely clueless developers.
Posts like this just get me. They show complete ignorance of what has happened in past MMO's. All I can say, boy are you in for a rude surprise. The playerbase has gotten a lot worse than when UO was around pre trammel. It was not trammel that hurt UO, it was the Age of Shadows, where they made equipment determine the out come of fights rather than skill.
Without consequences, servers self destruct. Too many people take advantage of gaps in rules and the rest just say to heck with it.
So for the ignorant, I reiterate, without decent consequences you end up with a dead game. Any knowledgable developer knows that and I am sure from what I have seen so far of this game that will be true here.
I wish them luck, I would like to give this game a try. Darkfall is such a disaster waiting to happen because of completely clueless developers.
This.
What a shame, this game looked like the MMO of my dreams until I read about the full loot, completely open PvP, and thieving. Have sandbox game developers learned nothing? The sort of player that this sort of open PvP/PvP looting system attracts are the rabid frothing-at-the-mouth griefers who enjoy making the game unplayable for anyone not in their "1337 z3rg clanz0r" and anyone who doesn't travel with an army. We need a sandbox game that appeals to more than the average PvP griefer.
The flagging system won't matter. People will exploit game mechanics to get away with whatever they want, whenever they want. That's just the maturity level of the PvP griefer crowd that this sort of system attracts. Don't believe me? Think i'm just trolling? Go play Darkfall, or Age of Conan open PvP server, or even a WoW PvP server. Any of those will have stealthed rogues ganking and backstabbing and stealing from you just because they can get a kick out of it, and just because they have nothing better to do. Any of those will have groups of immature asshats camping instance entrances and spamming "lolcopter you all sux your mom is fat i pwn you etc etc" in global chat while they zerg anyone who tries to get in. Any of those will have a group of immature asshats who hang around at the side of a well traveled road like a pack of starving animals waiting to zerg, kill, and usualy corpse camp/grief, anyone unlucky enough to cross. And these types of players are -everywhere-. Most of them -are- like that.
With full looting to stack on top of it all? Wow, good luck accomplishing -anything- -ever- outside of a zerg guild. You'll end up with a few barbaric zerg guilds just randomly killing people and looting them in the end, and drive all those players who want no part of griefing away from the game entirely. And not a lot of players playing your game.
So let the handful of rabid griefers go at it in the PvP servers, and add a more realistic PvP system as part of a different server. The world isn't ready to responsibly and maturely handle a fully open PvP system, let alone PvP looting. Past MMO's have proven that fully open PvP -always- degrades into total anarchy and gankfests.
Posts like this just get me. They show complete ignorance of what has happened in past MMO's. All I can say, boy are you in for a rude surprise. The playerbase has gotten a lot worse than when UO was around pre trammel. It was not trammel that hurt UO, it was the Age of Shadows, where they made equipment determine the out come of fights rather than skill.
Without consequences, servers self destruct. Too many people take advantage of gaps in rules and the rest just say to heck with it.
So for the ignorant, I reiterate, without decent consequences you end up with a dead game. Any knowledgable developer knows that and I am sure from what I have seen so far of this game that will be true here.
I wish them luck, I would like to give this game a try. Darkfall is such a disaster waiting to happen because of completely clueless developers.
This.
What a shame, this game looked like the MMO of my dreams until I read about the full loot, completely open PvP, and thieving. Have sandbox game developers learned nothing? The sort of player that this sort of open PvP/PvP looting system attracts are the rabid frothing-at-the-mouth griefers who enjoy making the game unplayable for anyone not in their "1337 z3rg clanz0r" and anyone who doesn't travel with an army. We need a sandbox game that appeals to more than the average PvP griefer.
The flagging system won't matter. People will exploit game mechanics to get away with whatever they want, whenever they want. That's just the maturity level of the PvP griefer crowd that this sort of system attracts. Don't believe me? Think i'm just trolling? Go play Darkfall, or Age of Conan open PvP server, or even a WoW PvP server. Any of those will have stealthed rogues ganking and backstabbing and stealing from you just because they can get a kick out of it, and just because they have nothing better to do. Any of those will have groups of immature asshats camping instance entrances and spamming "lolcopter you all sux your mom is fat i pwn you etc etc" in global chat while they zerg anyone who tries to get in. Any of those will have a group of immature asshats who hang around at the side of a well traveled road like a pack of starving animals waiting to zerg, kill, and usualy corpse camp/grief, anyone unlucky enough to cross. And these types of players are -everywhere-. Most of them -are- like that.
With full looting to stack on top of it all? Wow, good luck accomplishing -anything- -ever- outside of a zerg guild. You'll end up with a few barbaric zerg guilds just randomly killing people and looting them in the end, and drive all those players who want no part of griefing away from the game entirely. And not a lot of players playing your game.
So let the handful of rabid griefers go at it in the PvP servers, and add a more realistic PvP system as part of a different server. The world isn't ready to responsibly and maturely handle a fully open PvP system, let alone PvP looting. Past MMO's have proven that fully open PvP -always- degrades into total anarchy and gankfests.
1) There are no instance entrances. If you can go into a dungeon, so can everyone else, into the very same dungeon with you and everyone in it.
2) Zerg's work well when there is unbalanced AoE mechanics and no friendly fire. MO will have friendly fire. Careful with that zerg Eugene. You could do more harm than good.
3) gear has weight. You can only carry so much much gear before you cant move. Sure in the early days people will loot everything, just like Fallout 3. But you learn to drop the plates and cups and mugs and only loot the things you want.
4) Some people are tired of waiting for the world to change. These people are the ones trying to make the change.
5) There is no global chat. They have talked about your first 20 hours (in game) you cannot be attacked. So the first 20 hours is your "tutorial" time to get your wits about you.
6) This game isnt for everyone. We can all argue back and forth of what we think makes a great MMO. The developers of this game created it with the idea in mind that it is for a niche group. They are making their game the way they always wanted a game to work. They know it wont appeal to everyone and are not looking to be the next massively great thing. They want to be the next great thing to the player niche that this game will appeal to.
I understand where you are coming from. I have seen the things you have described. I also have heard the Dev's in this game talk about those very issues. IMO they dont want a giant gank-fest. They want a world where people have choices. Instead of linear paths that every single person playing the game does the same thing. This is their baby, without publishers pushing their hand one way or another. This is the game they wanted to always play themselves when they imagined a game. The game isnt even released (about to enter closed beta) and the mob and pitch forks are out in mass numbers without seeing how the game play even works together or even venturing to their website to have a more than general clue of mechanics.
That sounds awesome as well. The whole idea of a developing, changing world is ace in my book. So many mmorpgs take the easy way out to make the world static and only governed by day and night cycles and respawn timers.
When the world and it's non-player population is dynamic you never know what is around the next corner. That will generate some disapointments; ("I swear you gusy! It was here yesterday!"), but also many "WTF!" moments and it gives incentives to also visit places where you have been before.
Most mmorpgs I played have a world devided strictly in zones tied to player level ranges with not much incentives to be in places outside your level range (a.k.a. the biggest part of the world), in MO, where you were merily picking flowers yesterday, a tribe of trolls might have moved in this morning. I really love that unpredictability
That, along with your previous post, sounds great.
I know a lot of people are worried about the pvp/looting, but overall the game seems really interesting, and I can't wait to try it. The only other game I'm this interested in is Chronicles of Spellborn, which I'm waiting a few months to try.
How many mmo-failures does it take before sheeps quit going "OMGOMGOMG" over every piece of hype they are fed?
Here is my biggest issue with an open game like this: open PvP. Right now, I am playing in an RP-PvP Age of Conan which is pretty open, anyone can fight anybody. Right out of the gate, I step onto the White Sands Isle and get ganked by people several levels higher than I. Now, lets say someone in MO has played for a long time and knows what they are doing and have their skills trained while I step right out of a small village and they attack me. Will MO's gameplay allow me a fighting chance to beat said person? If so, then why do I even need to train skills? Why not just kill people with my lowbie sword all day long? If not, then it will just be another GIANT gankfest just like more open pvp games.
The major issue with open pvp is there is no way to tell a player, "Hey, this is a PvP game, but there is no reason to just kill and slaugher lowbies and people who can not fight back just because the game allows it" but then say "This is a PvP game! Lets slaughter people!". From the many pvp games I have played, Shadowbane and EQ (Vallon Zek Racial PvP) was the only ones that seemed to work for me.
I liked Vallon Zek because you knew who you could count on. I am human, I see a barbarian, lets group up! Oh there is a dwarf over there, be careful! You knew your enemies and allies (now sometimes people played the Lightie vs Darkie but that is different and is a server community thing).
Shadowbane I really do not have a clear memory of why it worked. I remember several times playing an Ireki (sp?) and learning a language that someone developed specifically for them. I was amazed by the community there. But from what I remember, that game was totally open also. But yet I do not remember being ganked.
There was an article that was recently published on a website, an interview with the head director for Age of Conan. What he said was that the issue with open PvP now days is that players and communities are different now. Back then, sure, people would kill you on sight, but rarely would they kill you again if they saw you. And a lot of times, they would fight fights that made sense with the game. Now days, people just want to kill you because the game will let us. They do not care about anything except just themselves and not their characters or others in game.
But, like every other company that has produced a MMO that allows PvP, how do you make it fair but fun. Maybe MO will find that sweet spot, if not, maybe a future company might find it. I loved the thrill of world PvP. Its the incesent killing of every person you can see for a mile just because the game allows it that has left a bitter taste in my otherwise sweet mouth.
Edit: I also looking foward to the openess of how the world will be in terms of non-PvP related stuff. Hopefully it will bring me back to my old EQ days of just running around in the world looking for interesting areas and meeting friendly, and not so friendly, people and creatures, it be AI controlled or player controlled.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
MO sounds very interesting. I have been following this game for a while now and I think this one have alot of potantial.
Aye, Zyllos. Your fear of this becoming a ffa gankfest is shared by many people who are also attracted to all the other great aspects of this game.
I do think the devs are trying to prevent this from happening though. They are going out of their way to keep the total freedom but make the consequences realistic, so people will think twice before they attack or rob someone in towns and cities and really have to weigh their chances.
They have devised this pretty complex flagging system to deal with random pvp and theft in different situations and when you are being attacked or getting stolen from in towns you are able to call the guards on that person. You can also do this on people who only assist the 'criminal' with friendly spells for instance.
Also the first 20 hours you play on a new character you will be flagged as 'fledgling' and unable to be attacked (unless you are a bold fledgling and do nasty stuff yourself; than your invulnerability flag will be promptly removed). I also understood you can remove this flag if you don't fancy being invulnerable as a new player.
Coupled to the flagging system is a character linked token counter where you get to place a token on those who killed you; (but you can choose not to) if that person assembled 5 of those murder tokens in a certain time period he will be labeled a murderer with certain nasty consequences. If I remember correctly the cooldown is around 20 hours so it could be a pretty hefty price to pay for a PK'er in some occasions. I also read something about jails recently
Anyway, we will have to see how it pans out; it's pretty hard to balance realism and freedom in regard to world pvp but they try to accomodate both for lawfull & good as well as the evil / chaotic kind of player. We shall see
My brand new bloggity blog.
MO will have a flagging system, which AoC has not, in AoC, i believe in the open pvp server you can kill anyone without facing any consequence, in MO you are flagged Red (KOS) for 20 hours of game time when you "murder" someone, and the timer is cumulative.
The aim of this game is not to be a giant gank fest, that's not what they mean by open pvp. it means that In MO you are not restricted by stupid rules which says : "you cannot hit that target", actually you can hit anyone, but then you have to face consequences. It's the same for FFA, FFA here doesn't mean it will be a persistant deathmatch,it means that you have no "built-in" ennemies and friend. You make your own ennemies and friends, your choice.
MO is about freedom, but freedom doesn't necessary mean chaos.
About the fairness of pvp, the pvp-related skills are quite easy to train "in 2 weeks" said the devs. So why why having skills at all ? It's about choosing a playstyle, you can't be a ninja-mage-in-full-plate-with-a-giant-claymore but you are not restricted by rigid "classes". It's a bit as if each player created its own class by picking the skills he want.
Basically like Ultima Online but in 3D. There, I said it and without walls and walls of text.
I didn't play UO (shame on me) but yes it would be kind of a UO pre-Electronic Arts (i heard how they wasted the game, and continue to do it)
But when you say it's like UO, it doesn't give a clue to people who hadn't played it, so wall of texts are necessary
That's how I'm hoping it essentially turns out, granted it won't have the millions of items you can interact with and probably better AI for any mobs, but if it gets the UO basics nailed down then they'll be onto a winner.
Bringing up the AI in UO reminded me of the blade wall in the dungeon (can't remember the name) with the ogres and the giant tables.. Cast blade spirit (I think that was the name) and then run to the other side of the table and watch the ogres get taken down. For those that don't know: Ogres were very powerful and could kill you with just a few swipes, even if you were in full plate.
I remember going in there the first time they fixed it so they wouldn't get stuck.... About 6 ogres cornered me and smashed my face in before I could recall out. Took a good hour and 4 of my friends helping to get all of my inventory back.
One of the bastards took my mandrake root though... (the ogre, not my friends)
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Dont ALL MMO's have potential?
I'm all for ffa PvP, but what's to stop a group of 20-30 people from camping inside a town and killing and robbing everyone. The guards better be pretty damn badass, I would hope there is a major deterrence from crime occuring within a town that only the most bravest or foolish would dare try and get away with it.
O_o o_O
In UO guards were "pretty damn badass" as you put it. So if MO goes with the UO style guards, there would be no way someone would survive once the guards were called.
Personally I always felt the UO guards were a bit too much. One hit and you died. I would rather see at least SOME way to escape. Not by killing the guards, mind you, but by running away or rooting them (if there is going to be roots in the game). Of course the guards should have the utilities to counter this tactic, but at least it would give a very small chance to get away.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I liked running around towns shouting "GUARDS!!" all the time. The way that you had to manualy call them yourself was a nice little touch i thought.
Im sure guards will be badass, and if you kill too many blues, youll be so deep in stat loss that next time you die, youll be reduced to newbie.
Davo, look at your avatar quote. Within that you shall find your answer.
The deterrence is you and your friends and the others who finally decide to step-up and do something. Remember, this game is going to be about your personal skill and not fully reliant upon the "Holy Handgrenade of Antiok" or something that a guild has farmed endlessly so as to provide a significant advantage.
People who go "red" are taking as much a chance at losing their gear as those who are being ambushed. Think of this.. do you think it was good for your health, or a wise decision, to roam the countryside with your wares that you wanted to sell the following day in a large city? Or, was it equally as good for you to just, haphazardly, ambush a merchant caravan that is protected by guildies and perhaps a merc or ten?
There's alot more here to come so you might want to keep an open mind. I too hate the zerg aspect of some games and the destruction that it creates to some subscribers "gameplay." But I feel quite confident that Henrik, Mats and the rest of the dev team have this in their minds continuously.
Fantastic!sa
You can burn me, but i wont die.