Originally posted by declaredemer I even have someone saying, "I honestly do not want innovation." And I am not trying to say that is a bad thing, although the person thinks I am. I quote verbatim to illustrate that commercialized gamers, the vast majority of MMORPGamers today, do not "honestly" want innovation.
Since you keep harping on that sentence of mine from your other thread, how about quoting the ENTIRE thing, along with the post before it for context?
Originally posted by Lidane
Originally posted by Fibsdk
Not everybody is looking for innovation. Just fresh new challenges that's entertaining. I could care less about seeing something completely new never seen in the genre before. I just want a fun well polished game.
What he said. I honestly don't care about innovation as much as I care about fun and polish. If the game is done well and I enjoy it, that's all that matters.
The fact that you keep cherry picking that quote without proper context, NOT quoting verbatim as you claim, simply further proves you're nothing but a troll looking for a flame war on this board. You spin, take quotes out of context and create entire fantasies in your head about what people supposedly believe about games in order to make yet another wordy thread of yours that says absolutely nothing.
You want to know why people react negatively to you? It's not because they're "commercialized/linear" gamers or threatened by you or your non-existent ideas. It's because no one likes a troll who wastes a board's time with flowery, whiny bullshit that only exists to provoke a flame war.
I am quoting the plain and clear meaning of your own words. It is sad. NO. It is really sad how you deny them. It is not about YOU, Lidane, but it is about the commercialized philosophy (you "honestly" do not want innovation). I know this. I do not deny that you do not want innovation; that is precisely my theory. You "honestly" do not want innovation, and you believe that innovation involves technology. You also see innovation as risky. It is risky today to not innovate. The irony is your misuse of words from "recuse" to "rational basis." Are you saying that your quote, "I honestly do not want innovation," has a different meaning from what is plain and clear?
If anything, I wish you would continue discussing innovation and not engage in the utterly disgraceful, immature, and pathetic name-calling that you have and continue to engage in. EDIT: Actually, I really do not care if you engage in name-calling --that is your personal problem-- but I would like you to "honestly" talk more about innovation. Frankly, I do need more quotes.
Lidane, I'm getting the feeling that he's either a troll or he's in his own little world. Whichever the case, unless you agree with him, you will be a 'commercial gamer' and 'unable to understand' the progressive thoughts he is spelling out for you, so I really feel for you if you plan to waste anymore time on this one.
Good luck, man.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Lidane, I'm getting the feeling that he's either a troll or he's in his own little world.
My vote is both. He's a blatant troll who lives in his own little world of delusions where millions of gamers can be narrowed down to just two categories, and where everyone is against him.
Whichever the case, unless you agree with him, you will be a 'commercial gamer' and 'unable to understand' the progressive thoughts he is spelling out for you, so I really feel for you if you plan to waste anymore time on this one.
Frankly, it's 2 AM here and I'm going to bed. I've shown that he takes quotes out of context for his own purposes, and others here have pointed out that he types a lot of words but says absolutely nothing. There's really not much more to say about him. He's just going to keep trolling to his heart's content.
Lidane, I'm getting the feeling that he's either a troll or he's in his own little world. Whichever the case, unless you agree with him, you will be a 'commercial gamer' and 'unable to understand' the progressive thoughts he is spelling out for you, so I really feel for you if you plan to waste anymore time on this one.
Good luck, man.
I have been accused of much (much) worse, but it is not personal to me. It is not a "little world" either. If anything, I think by not taking personal attacks personally I have only inspired those that do take persona attacks personally to attack more. I think they believe that if they attack from a different number of ways --from calling me a "condescending prick" to Lindane telling me her age and tjat she does "not like me"-- will result in me being intellectually dishonest. It is not that I refuse to engage in that behavior, it is that I do not know how. It is not that I do not care to engage in name-calling, but I would rather direct them to their plain and clear words (a) telling me their age; (b) telling me they "honestly" do not want innovation; (c) telling me they "dislike" me . . . you get the point.
My Crime is Proving the Tension Between Commercialized and Immersion Gamers, and Using Their Own Words, in Their Plain and Clear Meaning, Against Them
I am more than happy to play these games, and I find them entertaining. But, you should know, I will never (ever) stop advocating for (a) more immersion and (b) innovation in MMORPGs.
Until proven otherwise, I believe "commercialized" gamers are responsible for the lack or absence of innovation in MMORPG, and the emphasis today is on simple "fun" and "polish" and controlled gameplay, uninteractive environments, and so forth.
I do not, and will not, take any of this personally - at all.
If you do take it personally, no matter how much you do, I will not.
I enjoy discussing MMORPGs and advocating for immersion and innovation.
SWG was my first mmo and I thought it was amazing. Sure there were flaws, but they threw the baby out with the bathwater with the NGE.
After that I played most of the mainstream mmo's like WOW, COH, EQ2, WAR, AOC, LOTRO, etc. In general I agree with the OP that we do seem to keep playing the same game over and over again. But I'll take it a step further and say that in many cases the later games implement features not so well as previous games. You would think with tech and software advances we would have expanded beyond what SWG achieved so many years ago.
These are virtual worlds or they should be. There will always be some repetition in these games no matter how interesting they are if you want any longevity. Real life has repetitions in it, that is a world. It is going to be a short online game if you make it without zero repetition.
Now since I got that out of the way. It can get more dynamic and interesting I believe. I picture a virtual world that models our own. Politics, Governments, Laws, Borders, Trade, Alliances, Money, Trades, Resources, War. Imagine a game where the players make the country borders, laws, who is enemy and who is friend. Some lands would have more resources that would be greatly desired to produce armor, weapons, and the necessary machinary to win at war and become bigger.
You want to hunt and gather resources instead of fight? Sure thing, as long as you are a citizen of the country and are paying taxes. I picture a great experience than the linear games of today. I picture a world that is always changing like our own has over time.
What we need is for Tri-Ace to create an mmorpg using the gameplay features of titles such as Radiata Stories, Star Ocean and IU but successfully implement them into an mmorpg style world.
Also, instead of Square-enix publishing it, we get the RPG supergiant Hironobu Sakaguchi and his company Mistwalker to publish the game.
It's CALLED THE HERCULES, AND IT WILL FLY GOD DAMNIT
Repetition is unavoidable in an online game which costs $15 per month. That money can't keep a steady stream of new content such that no backtracking is necessary. Therefore, we choose to immerse ourselves in repetition because it is economically intelligent. Most full release mmos out there have content which is tiered, so there will be new gems uncovered throughout the gameplay experience for an extended time period.
Yes, more immersion and content makes for a better gaming experience, but remember that money in the pocket also makes for a better gaming experience.
One complaint I have is that I know there is some content I will likely never see. However, that is the typical mmos method for keeping me subscribed. Essentially, I will stay so long as progress seems attainable within reasonable time constraints.
My Crime is Proving the Tension Between Commercialized and Immersion Gamers, and Using Their Own Words, in Their Plain and Clear Meaning, Against Them
No, your crime is making up two terms. One, has implied condescending meaning, while the other is touted as some form of elitist title. Then, you go around calming you are proving some "tension", by creating it by passively flaming people who ask for clarification of your ideas.
When someone realizes , that your "ideas" have nothing actionable, and are simply the musings of a dreamer, that has no basis for reality and is full of lofty ideals and words, except in his own mind, and this "war" that players out in his head, you just label them "commercial gamer" and state "you cant possibly understand".
YOU, are the one that has the responsibility to post in a clear, thoughtful, through (with supporting examples for your "theory"), and concise manner so that the readers can understand what the hell you are talking about, continuing to spout a crazy mans credo, over top of the valid questions, of that credo form others, does not prove anything, other than "jack" and "shit".
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
We aren't going to see that much more innovative here unless we some ground breaking mechanics in a mmofps or mmorts which I would actually love to see.
I would love to see an mmo combine rpg, rts, fps, and sim. That's pretty much my dream mmo.
This isn't really relevant to the thread but I'd just like to say that FikusOfAhazi, your avatar is freaking me the hell out!
Before I criticize a man, I walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot.
At the very least you could stay on the topic of your own post OP.
Then again you looking to create drama for yourself seems to be your sole purpose. You went from talking about a somewhat valid idea to spewing passive agressive psuedo intellectual drek in everyones general direction.
As I stated in my post I think the players need to help find the next direction for games. We have what we have now because people are paying to play it. In the end it comes down to the same simple advice: Only play a game for as long as it is fun, then move on.
Josher is right. Let the dinosaurs die. We might actually get forward if we forget the "good ol' days".
I'm on the side of "there's no skill in PvE". This can be easily seen in GW. PvE players are worse than PvP players. Sure the only way to test this is PvP, the PvP player's homeground but in general things like dodging projectiles, situational awereness and interrupting skills and anticipation is better with PvP players. Why you ask? It's called evolution. Those who can't won't survive. I bet everyone has a limit where enough losses is just enough. You have to learn how to win!
Skill in PvE comes from the knowledge of how you beat the current AI. Which is rarely a challenge at all. Games that do require actual player skill, even minimal, expose the gap between the PvE and PvP players. PvP players are more skilled. No offense intended.
There is light at the end of the tunnel, however. Games that have an AI with learning cabability are on the rise. This will be the next generation of single player games, I think. It is step forward, albeit small. I can hardly wait when these types of features can be seen in an MMO. The need for advanced AI is being hampered by this ancient system aggro and tanking - the holy trinity. If only we could get rid of it, we could have MMOs with great AIs in the next... oh... 10 years? It's not that bad, right?
That is all. Peace.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Since you keep harping on that sentence of mine from your other thread, how about quoting the ENTIRE thing, along with the post before it for context?
The fact that you keep cherry picking that quote without proper context, NOT quoting verbatim as you claim, simply further proves you're nothing but a troll looking for a flame war on this board. You spin, take quotes out of context and create entire fantasies in your head about what people supposedly believe about games in order to make yet another wordy thread of yours that says absolutely nothing.
You want to know why people react negatively to you? It's not because they're "commercialized/linear" gamers or threatened by you or your non-existent ideas. It's because no one likes a troll who wastes a board's time with flowery, whiny bullshit that only exists to provoke a flame war.
Lindane,
I am quoting the plain and clear meaning of your own words. It is sad. NO. It is really sad how you deny them. It is not about YOU, Lidane, but it is about the commercialized philosophy (you "honestly" do not want innovation). I know this. I do not deny that you do not want innovation; that is precisely my theory. You "honestly" do not want innovation, and you believe that innovation involves technology. You also see innovation as risky. It is risky today to not innovate. The irony is your misuse of words from "recuse" to "rational basis." Are you saying that your quote, "I honestly do not want innovation," has a different meaning from what is plain and clear?
If anything, I wish you would continue discussing innovation and not engage in the utterly disgraceful, immature, and pathetic name-calling that you have and continue to engage in. EDIT: Actually, I really do not care if you engage in name-calling --that is your personal problem-- but I would like you to "honestly" talk more about innovation. Frankly, I do need more quotes.
Lidane, I'm getting the feeling that he's either a troll or he's in his own little world. Whichever the case, unless you agree with him, you will be a 'commercial gamer' and 'unable to understand' the progressive thoughts he is spelling out for you, so I really feel for you if you plan to waste anymore time on this one.
Good luck, man.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
My vote is both. He's a blatant troll who lives in his own little world of delusions where millions of gamers can be narrowed down to just two categories, and where everyone is against him.
Frankly, it's 2 AM here and I'm going to bed. I've shown that he takes quotes out of context for his own purposes, and others here have pointed out that he types a lot of words but says absolutely nothing. There's really not much more to say about him. He's just going to keep trolling to his heart's content.
I have been accused of much (much) worse, but it is not personal to me. It is not a "little world" either. If anything, I think by not taking personal attacks personally I have only inspired those that do take persona attacks personally to attack more. I think they believe that if they attack from a different number of ways --from calling me a "condescending prick" to Lindane telling me her age and tjat she does "not like me"-- will result in me being intellectually dishonest. It is not that I refuse to engage in that behavior, it is that I do not know how. It is not that I do not care to engage in name-calling, but I would rather direct them to their plain and clear words (a) telling me their age; (b) telling me they "honestly" do not want innovation; (c) telling me they "dislike" me . . . you get the point.
My Crime is Proving the Tension Between Commercialized and Immersion Gamers, and Using Their Own Words, in Their Plain and Clear Meaning, Against Them
I am more than happy to play these games, and I find them entertaining. But, you should know, I will never (ever) stop advocating for (a) more immersion and (b) innovation in MMORPGs.
Until proven otherwise, I believe "commercialized" gamers are responsible for the lack or absence of innovation in MMORPG, and the emphasis today is on simple "fun" and "polish" and controlled gameplay, uninteractive environments, and so forth.
I do not, and will not, take any of this personally - at all.
If you do take it personally, no matter how much you do, I will not.
I enjoy discussing MMORPGs and advocating for immersion and innovation.
SWG was my first mmo and I thought it was amazing. Sure there were flaws, but they threw the baby out with the bathwater with the NGE.
After that I played most of the mainstream mmo's like WOW, COH, EQ2, WAR, AOC, LOTRO, etc. In general I agree with the OP that we do seem to keep playing the same game over and over again. But I'll take it a step further and say that in many cases the later games implement features not so well as previous games. You would think with tech and software advances we would have expanded beyond what SWG achieved so many years ago.
These are virtual worlds or they should be. There will always be some repetition in these games no matter how interesting they are if you want any longevity. Real life has repetitions in it, that is a world. It is going to be a short online game if you make it without zero repetition.
Now since I got that out of the way. It can get more dynamic and interesting I believe. I picture a virtual world that models our own. Politics, Governments, Laws, Borders, Trade, Alliances, Money, Trades, Resources, War. Imagine a game where the players make the country borders, laws, who is enemy and who is friend. Some lands would have more resources that would be greatly desired to produce armor, weapons, and the necessary machinary to win at war and become bigger.
You want to hunt and gather resources instead of fight? Sure thing, as long as you are a citizen of the country and are paying taxes. I picture a great experience than the linear games of today. I picture a world that is always changing like our own has over time.
What we need is for Tri-Ace to create an mmorpg using the gameplay features of titles such as Radiata Stories, Star Ocean and IU but successfully implement them into an mmorpg style world.
Also, instead of Square-enix publishing it, we get the RPG supergiant Hironobu Sakaguchi and his company Mistwalker to publish the game.
It's CALLED THE HERCULES, AND IT WILL FLY GOD DAMNIT
.
Repetition is unavoidable in an online game which costs $15 per month. That money can't keep a steady stream of new content such that no backtracking is necessary. Therefore, we choose to immerse ourselves in repetition because it is economically intelligent. Most full release mmos out there have content which is tiered, so there will be new gems uncovered throughout the gameplay experience for an extended time period.
Yes, more immersion and content makes for a better gaming experience, but remember that money in the pocket also makes for a better gaming experience.
One complaint I have is that I know there is some content I will likely never see. However, that is the typical mmos method for keeping me subscribed. Essentially, I will stay so long as progress seems attainable within reasonable time constraints.
No, your crime is making up two terms. One, has implied condescending meaning, while the other is touted as some form of elitist title. Then, you go around calming you are proving some "tension", by creating it by passively flaming people who ask for clarification of your ideas.
When someone realizes , that your "ideas" have nothing actionable, and are simply the musings of a dreamer, that has no basis for reality and is full of lofty ideals and words, except in his own mind, and this "war" that players out in his head, you just label them "commercial gamer" and state "you cant possibly understand".
YOU, are the one that has the responsibility to post in a clear, thoughtful, through (with supporting examples for your "theory"), and concise manner so that the readers can understand what the hell you are talking about, continuing to spout a crazy mans credo, over top of the valid questions, of that credo form others, does not prove anything, other than "jack" and "shit".
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I would love to see an mmo combine rpg, rts, fps, and sim. That's pretty much my dream mmo.
This isn't really relevant to the thread but I'd just like to say that FikusOfAhazi, your avatar is freaking me the hell out!
That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot.
At the very least you could stay on the topic of your own post OP.
Then again you looking to create drama for yourself seems to be your sole purpose. You went from talking about a somewhat valid idea to spewing passive agressive psuedo intellectual drek in everyones general direction.
As I stated in my post I think the players need to help find the next direction for games. We have what we have now because people are paying to play it. In the end it comes down to the same simple advice: Only play a game for as long as it is fun, then move on.
Mrbloodworth... you're my hero.
Josher is right. Let the dinosaurs die. We might actually get forward if we forget the "good ol' days".
I'm on the side of "there's no skill in PvE". This can be easily seen in GW. PvE players are worse than PvP players. Sure the only way to test this is PvP, the PvP player's homeground but in general things like dodging projectiles, situational awereness and interrupting skills and anticipation is better with PvP players. Why you ask? It's called evolution. Those who can't won't survive. I bet everyone has a limit where enough losses is just enough. You have to learn how to win!
Skill in PvE comes from the knowledge of how you beat the current AI. Which is rarely a challenge at all. Games that do require actual player skill, even minimal, expose the gap between the PvE and PvP players. PvP players are more skilled. No offense intended.
There is light at the end of the tunnel, however. Games that have an AI with learning cabability are on the rise. This will be the next generation of single player games, I think. It is step forward, albeit small. I can hardly wait when these types of features can be seen in an MMO. The need for advanced AI is being hampered by this ancient system aggro and tanking - the holy trinity. If only we could get rid of it, we could have MMOs with great AIs in the next... oh... 10 years? It's not that bad, right?
That is all. Peace.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky