Enough of the symbolic "turn based" bore-combat!

Elikal

I am really fed up with that. I mean, being a RPG player for 20+ years and having enjoyed stuff like Baldurs Gate I know where this comes from, and for a while, a long while, it was alright for me too. Maybe that is what you do when you start things, take them slow. But over the years and the many MMOs I am really sick and tired to the rim by this style of "EQ-WOW" combat.

What I mean is this: you (the supposed "hero") go to some mob, a badger, bear, boar, and HACK HACK HACK on it with skills 1-20 all over for 5 minutes. Usually you dont watch the fight, you watch the timers on your skill icons, because you have 3-4 full quick bars of skills. "Fireball, firecube, firetriangle" zzzzz If you seriously look at all those attacks your average LOTRO, EQ2, WOW or whatever class has, it is usually nothing to see. 4 dozens attacks and spells, which are usually only dull variants of a handful. Seriously, of all my various attacks my level 73 Paladin in EQ2 has, they make little difference to me. They might as well be 5 or 6 instead of 40, really, it is just "look how many skills I have".

But this totally unheroic dullness of hacking with you UBER sword and that UBER spells FIVE DAMN LONG minutes on some godsforsaken BADGER. Am I the only one who thinks thats hilarious? The difficulty curve adds to that. When you start, you usually can kill mobs easy and fast, you level ever so often, and it gives you an exhilaration feeling of power and progress. But the higher in level you get, while the attacks have even more pompous names and you have ever bigger swords, it oddly takes longer and longer to beat even mundane enemies like a wolf or a boar. So in all those MMOs I always had the feeling to get weaker the higher my level was, not stronger. Its one of the reasons that despite having played 3 dozen MMOs or more, I have only ONE max level char ever, and thats my SWG char. And even he only because of some exploit bug in that Kashyykk arena.

Every time I enter the last 3rd of the level, my drive dies out. Usually I start another alt then. The gameplay just gets dull. I have by then seen everything and what follows is just more of the same. The new stuff possible is endgame only, and usually far away and for max level chars only anyway. Like the PVP of LOTRO. Or the infamous raids. And whats to gain? Firefall No. 6754. Or "super-duper-holy-sword hack 78686" which looks even as boring as No 1.

 

I am really tired of this symbolic, slow paced combat. AoC was a real refreshment, tho it kinda lacked the long term fascination. But generally, I really would love to see something more heroic. Not "hack on one mob minutes and minutes". Look at any movie. Sure in Star Wars you had that "boss mob fight" from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan against Darth Maul, which lasted some time; or the Fellowship VS the Cavetroll in Moria. But generally, when a party from a fantasy or action movie kills "trash mobs" its 2-3 hacks and slashes and the beast is dead. Like the many droids in SW, or the underling type of Orc in LOTR. THAT is how I want to see MMO combat. 1-3 attacks and within 3-4 seconds the mob is dead... and next. And to balance that HORDES of them. So that at the end of the day I dont have this feeling "hey I am an uber Paladin level 80 and I have killed 20 badgers today YAY"... no, but I recall an epic battle of having killed hundreds of Orcs. Or Badgers if you must. Just not this minutelong borefest of hacking on one single damn mob. Seriously, who needs sleep pills with combat like that?

Thoric485

WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY

Sarr

Elikal, you obviously haven't played D&D Online, right? 

DDO has a totally different combat, real time as opposed to "turn based" like in WoW or LotrO. Check it out.

paulscott

Originally posted by Thoric485


WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY

WE CAN MAKE IT BETTER FASTER STRONGER THAN EVER BEFORE.

TCoS is a nice bit of fresh air,  the starter quests are lame though because they seem to think that players are insanely dumb and have never played a FPS.   Also has an interesting combat mechanic to boot that forces you to balance how you're going to fight, think ahead of time, and think during combat.    Also it has a low "power curve" where the differeance between a large handful of levels isn't that big except in edge cases like I didn't pick my subclass yet.

Loke666

Well, some game do have faster paced combat, like Guildwars but they are mostly turn based still.

A few games based on something else would be fun, like a MMO that use Wii controler or something else fresh.

Sarr

Originally posted by Loke666


Well, some game do have faster paced combat, like Guildwars but they are mostly turn based still.
A few games based on something else would be fun, like a MMO that use Wii controler or something else fresh.

People liked to compare D&D Online to GW few years ago. They stopped. Why? Because GW is still turn based. DDO has more "natural" and realistic combat where you swing your sword / use wands with mouse button. You can even climb, swim, catch the edge of some wall, trains skills like jumping, etc. Monsters and players block way, so you can effectively use tactics like blocking narrow passages, so monsters won't catch your casters.

Add to this enviromental traps of acid, cold, electricity, sharp spikes or blades which you can dogde like in action-oriented game. Or evironmental puzzles where players must divide their roles and stand on something to open passage, moving blocks, levitation (ok, slow fall by spell or magic items)...

This is already done.

Look at this:

Maybe not pretty picture (sorry), but think about what I do here... that's real MMO game. Can you do it in other MMOs?

Some prettier pictures:

thark

---

Originally posted by Elikal
I am really fed up with that. I mean, being a RPG player for 20+ years and having enjoyed stuff like Baldurs Gate I know where this comes from, and for a while, a long while, it was alright for me too. Maybe that is what you do when you start things, take them slow. But over the years and the many MMOs I am really sick and tired to the rim by this style of "EQ-WOW" combat.
What I mean is this: you (the supposed "hero") go to some mob, a badger, bear, boar, and HACK HACK HACK on it with skills 1-20 all over for 5 minutes. Usually you dont watch the fight, you watch the timers on your skill icons, because you have 3-4 full quick bars of skills. "Fireball, firecube, firetriangle" zzzzz If you seriously look at all those attacks your average LOTRO, EQ2, WOW or whatever class has, it is usually nothing to see. 4 dozens attacks and spells, which are usually only dull variants of a handful. Seriously, of all my various attacks my level 73 Paladin in EQ2 has, they make little difference to me. They might as well be 5 or 6 instead of 40, really, it is just "look how many skills I have".
But this totally unheroic dullness of hacking with you UBER sword and that UBER spells FIVE DAMN LONG minutes on some godsforsaken BADGER. Am I the only one who thinks thats hilarious? The difficulty curve adds to that. When you start, you usually can kill mobs easy and fast, you level ever so often, and it gives you an exhilaration feeling of power and progress. But the higher in level you get, while the attacks have even more pompous names and you have ever bigger swords, it oddly takes longer and longer to beat even mundane enemies like a wolf or a boar. So in all those MMOs I always had the feeling to get weaker the higher my level was, not stronger. Its one of the reasons that despite having played 3 dozen MMOs or more, I have only ONE max level char ever, and thats my SWG char. And even he only because of some exploit bug in that Kashyykk arena.
Every time I enter the last 3rd of the level, my drive dies out. Usually I start another alt then. The gameplay just gets dull. I have by then seen everything and what follows is just more of the same. The new stuff possible is endgame only, and usually far away and for max level chars only anyway. Like the PVP of LOTRO. Or the infamous raids. And whats to gain? Firefall No. 6754. Or "super-duper-holy-sword hack 78686" which looks even as boring as No 1.
 
I am really tired of this symbolic, slow paced combat. AoC was a real refreshment, tho it kinda lacked the long term fascination. But generally, I really would love to see something more heroic. Not "hack on one mob minutes and minutes". Look at any movie. Sure in Star Wars you had that "boss mob fight" from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan against Darth Maul, which lasted some time; or the Fellowship VS the Cavetroll in Moria. But generally, when a party from a fantasy or action movie kills "trash mobs" its 2-3 hacks and slashes and the beast is dead. Like the many droids in SW, or the underling type of Orc in LOTR. THAT is how I want to see MMO combat. 1-3 attacks and within 3-4 seconds the mob is dead... and next. And to balance that HORDES of them. So that at the end of the day I dont have this feeling "hey I am an uber Paladin level 80 and I have killed 20 badgers today YAY"... no, but I recall an epic battle of having killed hundreds of Orcs. Or Badgers if you must. Just not this minutelong borefest of hacking on one single damn mob. Seriously, who needs sleep pills with combat like that?

---

It isn't turnbased combat

Elikal

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Loke666


Well, some game do have faster paced combat, like Guildwars but they are mostly turn based still.
A few games based on something else would be fun, like a MMO that use Wii controler or something else fresh.

People liked to compare D&D Online to GW few years ago. They stopped. Why? Because GW is still turn based. DDO has more "natural" and realistic combat where you swing your sword / use wands with mouse button. You can even climb, swim, catch the edge of some wall, trains skills like jumping, etc. Monsters and players block way, so you can effectively use tactics like blocking narrow passages, so monsters won't catch your casters.

Add to this enviromental traps of acid, cold, electricity, sharp spikes or blades which you can dogde like in action-oriented game. Or evironmental puzzles where players must divide their roles and stand on something to open passage, moving blocks, levitation (ok, slow fall by spell or magic items)...

This is already done.

Look at this:

Maybe not pretty picture (sorry), but think about what I do here... that's real MMO game. Can you do it in other MMOs?

Some prettier pictures:

 

I admit I tried DDO only a short time, since the heavy instanced and SO not open world totally drove me away. (Same to GW, but that was YEARS ago I dunno recall the combat at all.) I did not pay much attention to DDO combat, and it was 2 years ago or so. So I wont say about DDO combat either way; I just dont recall it well enough.

Swanea

DnD online sure seems turn based to me.  Really though, outside of FPS, it's going to just be a different sort of Turn based attacks that might seem a little less than another.

 

Longer battles are supposed to be more intense.  Outside of boss battles, they are not.

Sarr

Originally posted by Elikal I admit I tried DDO only a short time, since the heavy instanced and SO not open world totally drove me away. (Same to GW, but that was YEARS ago I dunno recall the combat at all.) I did not pay much attention to DDO combat, and it was 2 years ago or so. So I wont say about DDO combat either way; I just dont recall it well enough.

 

Give it another try after Module 9 comes on live servers : ). If you tried this game 2 years ago... it's totally changed. People who came back on it's 3rd Anniversary (those with whom I played in random groups) were shocked - positively.

The world seems much more open now, and with changes coming in Mod 9 there will be much more to that...

Revived site:

www.ddo.com

Mod 9 pre-release notes:

compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Lamannia_Update_9.0_Official

RazorFine

D&D online is a great game i just burn't out on it after 3 months but enjoyed all the aspects of the game but one the PvP  was well 2 cookie cutter.. meaning you almost always knew who was going to win.

dirtyklingon

i agree with the feeling that you should be able to own mobs in a few seconds and take on hordes of them at a time. my epeen demands that i blast mobs down easily with any class.

it's the players i want to feel are as powerful as i am, and raid boss mobs.

Josher

Originally posted by dirtyklingon


i agree with the feeling that you should be able to own mobs in a few seconds and take on hordes of them at a time. my epeen demands that i blast mobs down easily with any class.
it's the players i want to feel are as powerful as i am, and raid boss mobs.

 

Action oriented combat doesn't matter if you're trapped in an instance all the time.  I'd rather play an FPS without a fee, sorry.  I can't wait for a God of War or Mark of Kri system with 100s of players on screen at once, but its not happening for a very long time.  The sacrifice of a persistent world is too steep.

ElendilasX

I guess many people bored with such combat system but companies are afraid to try something new, better create copies of old games and get some money..

Game with very fast combat system would be niche game: as you would kill mobs fast they also should be able to kill you in few seconds...

weg886

Originally posted by ElendilasX


I guess many people bored with such combat system but companies are afraid to try something new, better create copies of old games and get some money..
Game with very fast combat system would be niche game: as you would kill mobs fast they also should be able to kill you in few seconds...

 

That is true, so you want to kill fast ?? then you die fast!

 

I on the other hand like to aim my shots and kill fast only if i get a head shot.

Ihmotepp

Try City of Heroes. It has combat where you fight 20 or 30 mobs, and mow them down, rather than fighting one big mob forever. There's still Boss mobs though, but you will see some fast combat.

CoffeeGrunt

urgh seing the products these days being RT pvp makes me think turn based wasnt that bad way back ^^

 

Elikal

Originally posted by Ihmotepp


Try City of Heroes. It has combat where you fight 20 or 30 mobs, and mow them down, rather than fighting one big mob forever. There's still Boss mobs though, but you will see some fast combat.

 

Hey thats true! Maybe CO is like that then. I played CoH half a year, it was really cool, but after 6 months I had seen enough offices, halls and oh look MORE offices and halls. XD But you are right that was heroic.

Cleffy

We haven't actually had many Turn Based Systems.  The only 2 that come to mind are Atlantica, Monster and Me, and Fairyland.  TBS systems are suppose to promote strategy above all else, and selecting the same 4 buttons over and over isn't TBS.

rello

I would say wait for Diablo 3, you mentioned you like baldurs gate and i know many people who enjoyed both baldurs gate and diablo 2 despite the differences in combat (including myself) Its not an mmorpg but the category doesnt matter if its fun amiright?

Timberwolf0

---

Originally posted by Sarr
Originally posted by Elikal I admit I tried DDO only a short time, since the heavy instanced and SO not open world totally drove me away. (Same to GW, but that was YEARS ago I dunno recall the combat at all.) I did not pay much attention to DDO combat, and it was 2 years ago or so. So I wont say about DDO combat either way; I just dont recall it well enough.

---

 
Give it another try after Module 9 comes on live servers : ). If you tried this game 2 years ago... it's totally changed. People who came back on it's 3rd Anniversary (those with whom I played in random groups) were shocked - positively.
The world seems much more open now, and with changes coming in Mod 9 there will be much more to that...
Revived site:
www.ddo.com
Mod 9 pre-release notes:
compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Lamannia_Update_9.0_Official

---

Look its either open world or its not. Is it like GW where when you go into combat areas only people you see are in your party or can you see anyone?

JGMIII

 

I like Action bar, cooldown, tab targetting combat in today's MMOs.

So many people want to make MMos a blend of every genre, you guys want FPS combat and Vehicle mechanics and Rts elements and Roleplaying game storyline.

If you want Fps combat go play Counterstrike or CoD4, If you want epic storys go play Final fantasy, If you want racing mechanics go play twisted metal or gran turismo, Go play Starcraft or warhammer 40k if you want world building and shit like that.

Stop trying to change the MMO genre.

 

 

 

demonic87

Originally posted by JGMIII


 
I like Action bar, cooldown, tab targetting combat in today's MMOs.
So many people want to make MMos a blend of every genre, you guys want FPS combat and Vehicle mechanics and Rts elements and Roleplaying game storyline.
If you want Fps combat go play Counterstrike or CoD4, If you want epic storys go play Final fantasy, If you want racing mechanics go play twisted metal or gran turismo, Go play Starcraft or warhammer 40k if you want world building and shit like that.
Stop trying to change the MMO genre.
 
 
 

I usually agree with your posts, but that one was just utter BS.

 

We NEED a new formula. Everyone is trying WoW clones or "oh so innovative" mmo's, that really just use the basic mmo function but add a feature, that usually HAS to fit in the mmo way. We need mmo developers to think outside the box, break out of the traditional mmo rules, not but mixing genres, like darkfall, huxly, global agenda etc. But by breaking the old routine, making a mmo with completely different rules and boundaries. That, would be the innovation people want.

Frostbite05

I'm a WoW player and proud of the fact but i must agree we need new original MMO's. WoW found its place but who is to say what the next big one will be.

Palebane

Originally posted by JGMIII


 
I like Action bar, cooldown, tab targetting combat in today's MMOs.
So many people want to make MMos a blend of every genre, you guys want FPS combat and Vehicle mechanics and Rts elements and Roleplaying game storyline.
If you want Fps combat go play Counterstrike or CoD4, If you want epic storys go play Final fantasy, If you want racing mechanics go play twisted metal or gran turismo, Go play Starcraft or warhammer 40k if you want world building and shit like that.
Stop trying to change the MMO genre.
 
 
 

 

Your genre will be assimilated.

Majinash

Originally posted by JGMIII


 
I like Action bar, cooldown, tab targetting combat in today's MMOs.
So many people want to make MMos a blend of every genre, you guys want FPS combat and Vehicle mechanics and Rts elements and Roleplaying game storyline.
If you want Fps combat go play Counterstrike or CoD4, If you want epic storys go play Final fantasy, If you want racing mechanics go play twisted metal or gran turismo, Go play Starcraft or warhammer 40k if you want world building and shit like that.
Stop trying to change the MMO genre.
 
 
 

and yet all your posts are about changing MMOs.  vehical mechanics are great, FPS elements are great.  really all i want from an MMO is a persistant world, from there variaty is good.  Planetside was great, it gave me a persistant world and some fun FPS combat.  you can have vehicals, dragons, PvP, PvE, city building, anything you want, as long as it has a persistant world (with lots of people) I'll call it an MMO. 

 

letting the genre stagnate is only bad.  I can't wait till I get a new MMOFPS or MMORTS, its only good for us gamers.