Leveling keeps you interested in a game and gives you a longer range goal as well as having pride and an attachment to the character you create
Most importantly it helps ween out the immature "wienie" players who want to be max level in a week without putting fort any effort and having everything handed to them.These are typically the people that ruin a good game on average,instead of people who really do enjoy playing the game as well as the social aspect of it.
I actually think it should take years to reach max level if you can reach it at all but I dont believe in macro's.
Max level in a week? Once a themepark MMO has been out more than a year, most MMOs add so many ways for you to level faster and speed through to get to the endgame content where max level in a week is easy. Having pride in a character for being high level is laughable. Level does not equal skill. Play a skill based game where it requires more logic than priest vs. rogue = dead priest.
Maybe to you having pride for having a high level character is laughable because you are one of the people that dont have what it takes to go through the tough process of getting that high level character. Anybody that does anything in life that takes time to accomplish will fell proud of them selves when they finally do what the started trying to do so long ago. Even if you dont play MMOs you should understand this. You say go play a skill based game I say why? What makes a game that makes you grind skills better? If my Fireball is LV 5 and your Fireball is LV 10 I am going to lose and now I have to grind mobs using my LV 5 Fireball over and over and over to get it LV 10. Skill based MMOs are the worst type of MMOs out there. Only game that does uses the skill based system in a good way is EVE. There is a reason why the most popular games on the market are what they are.
i think you are all missing the point. you just as well could have eve with lvls, where you would train a class 1-5 lvl and after you have waited x amout of time to get that lvl put the rewarded class 1-5 skill or feat point in an redicules long skill tree. of course it would be unbelievable stupid to do it that way bacause of how eves skill work. but it has nothing to do with lvls or skill based progression.
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
its the people like op who ruins the mmorpgs, you whine like crazy ducks, everywhere.. and devs pick on it.. and release some half assed crap , wait till agency gets released, mmorpg without lvling.. i wonder what it actually have, wana make a bet it wont have over 100k subs after 2-3 months ?
cuz im 100% sure it wont
if i wanted jump in AND PEW PEW everyone i would jump into any of 5235235235235236923869034826942308623904 fps there are , i love achievement games, no not the ones like xbox or random achievements they put in fps games
the ones like mmorpgs/rts and in between
you saying it reduce population number.. haha ok lets take this scenario, some new half good mmo gets released.. you pick whatnot class not class, then you go to trainer, it booms 50 skills you can learn for you , tell me how this learning curve gona atract new players?
lvling is best part of mmorpgs if you do it when game launches, specially if you racing to lvl cap, not everyone can do it , not everyone should, but its such great fun, you know what was best about wow wotlk, i might curse it for lack of end game.. but the questing from 70 to 80, was just outstanding
wow isnt sucesfull cuz of new servers.. where you got that.. they get new server once a half year at best , yes there are some rerollers, not enough to fund new servers over and over again
just how ignorant you are calling everyone noobs, and ecetra
dont like the game dont play, get the f.ck off my genre, im already sick of instant action mmorpgs
whats mmorpg to you. you create char, you learn skills, you kill something, learn routine, craft some new items in a day, and then do same exact thing for next 5 years.. awesome, go play cs, it will suit you
I always play role playing games, so its part of really making your character who he/she is.
It's like when you play on the ptr on Wow and they have premades available, it is full of players who don't know what they are doing, they logged in with a full spellbook and splattered them on the actionbars in any order and run into the pvp areas and get smashed.
Imagine buying a new mmo and having that happen?
Imagine all the people who would simply reroll flavor of the month class and instantly be max level, and if a new set of items just got released, the new character would be on par with some other geezers char who he played for months.
Also you won't get to experience different tiers of the game - where you play with other people at the same 'difficulty' as you. You would all just be thrown into the same bowl and mixed together into a big noob soup.
And I totally agree that Blizzard opening brand new realms is fantastic, because yeah you do sometimes want to start again but don't want to be put off by being a starting area loner.
There are more reasons I'm sure..
Hello? No levels does not mean all characters are as good. You still need to get your skills and gears up and that can take as long time as in a regular MMO.
The difference is that your hit points dont raise as much or not all all but that doesn't mean that you don't get a lot better.
You are talking about some kind of MMO where you always have as good character, like in a FPS game and only gear matters. Most pen and paper RPGs are leveless and you still get a lot better in all of them.
In conclusion. Leveling, when implemented right, should make you feel a sense of accomplishment. Enough with the meaningless content. Taking out levels won't change the fact that the CONTENT sucks. Make content and quests relate to the story and the game world. Give the player a reason to do them/it.
Well, you are right but leveless games gives as much kick as level based. The both ways are just different ways of keeping track of a characters experience.
If you have a duelist that have 100% in fencing and other important skill or is max levels, it is the same accomplishment. The leveless system is just more flexible and you can get better in certain things fast or everything slow.
You can still become one of the toughest guys on the server, and it usually takes even more work maxing out everything without levels then in a game with them.
It is all to simulate that heroes gets tougher and tougher with time, the only difference is that levels are very non flexible shaping characters that are copies with the possibility to spec in 3 or so ways while if you don't have levels you either have o train or put XP on the skills you can choose for the class you are playing.
Getting better feels good, but the game mechanics wont make the feeling less, even though you can't point on your level but say that you are maxed out with your axe instead.
There are many ways to handle games without levels, some good and some sucks.
Who wants to spend weeks of real time grinding an awesome undeafetable character. Griefers and trolls.
Thats pretty much it. Players want to pop on do something & leave. Whether thats exploration, combat PvP whatever. PvP where an opponent cannot mathematically win irregardless of skill or gear IS BORING. You want heroic fights challenges. If you can press a button and win the game becomes an exercise in mastrubatory ego indulgence.
I agree with the OP. The leveling system reduces the number of people I can play with and the game content I can usefully interact with.
I thought that Guild Wars Nightfall hit an excellent balance between forcing people to walk the leveling treadmill and hitting newbies with the fully complexity of the game at once. It has an extensive starting island with xp sufficiently high that by the time you are ready for the main game, you have already reached the level cap. After that, anyone can go anywhere and play with anyone. Advancement isn't over because you are still hunting for skills and equipment.
Until all gear becomes completely cosmetic, you will have a form of leveling no matter what system you use. The only other option is a hidden skill base system where actions are tied into stats you never see and the only bars you get are a stamina, spirit and of course a universal health bar for everyone.
Then the only way you get better with a given weapon, any weapon, is to use it and you'll notice you get faster with it and get a "feel" for it. Which in turn let's you find better ways to cause damage (critical attacks happen more) Same thing for magic. Base them off elements and leave it at that. Fire, wind, water and earth. That's it...no dark, light or any of that other stuff. Fire= dps, Wind=buff, water=heal and earth=debuff. You can "study" all 4 but you have to split your spirit bar into 4 parts. Studying more of 1 type gets you better but that leaves less time to study for the other 3.
And with all these skills as you use them they make either your stamina or spirit bar longer. But the only bar seen by other players would be your health bar. This would completely take the wind out of all elitist sails as everyone could customize themselves to look anyway they want. Only thing other players could do to tell what a player is, is by the type of weapon they used and how well they wield it is entirely up to the honesty of the player.
That would make an interesting experiment....I wonder how long it would take for players to sort themselves out and measure each others worth....
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Until all gear becomes completely cosmetic, you will have a form of leveling no matter what system you use.
You still have a form of leveling even when gear is cosmetic. See: Puzzle Pirates. It's probably the most hardcore game when it comes to leveling because your skill rank/level is measured by your actual ability. A person who sucks at a particular action/feature will never raise their rank until that actually learn to do it better.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Until all gear becomes completely cosmetic, you will have a form of leveling no matter what system you use.
You still have a form of leveling even when gear is cosmetic. See: Puzzle Pirates. It's probably the most hardcore game when it comes to leveling because your skill rank/level is measured by your actual ability. A person who sucks at a particular action/feature will never raise their rank until that actually learn to do it better.
When I say cosmetic i mean that at anytime people can make or buy whatever they choose. If you take the "oomph" out of getting gear, it takes away from the whole "looks dictates skills" mentality.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I agree with the OP. My first MMO was Ultima ONline, second that I really got into was SWG-pre NGE. Both games were skill based games. Since then I really haven't found a MMO I really enjoy. Skill based games, at least you can jump in with friends at any time...reguardless of what their skills are compared to your own. This IMO is where the fun is. You aren't left behind from your friends/ guildmates. And along the way I found I made many more friends of varying skill levels and experience with the game. There usually was few empty areas, as anybody could be anywhere. Leveling based I always felt left behind...or hated leaving friends behind cause they lvled slower than me. People tend to stick with their own level groups, to get to the next level faster. I feel this spreads the community out thinner, and makes people less sociable cause they tend to stick with a smaller group of friends. And after a couple years, newbie areas/ lower level areas become less active. While the higher level areas become more populated. This is just my opinion of course. I image those that started out in a level based game, may always enjoy that type of game style. But those of us that started in a game like UO, with skills...will probibly always preffer that type of playstyle. And I will always feel skill based system is much better.
IMO, RPG = character progression.
It really makes no difference to me if you measure character progression with levels or skills.
I see some advantages in using skills because there is less disparaity in power level between characters, I see some advantages with levels in that they are easier to balance content.
But in the end, progression is progession.
If I can log in the game, and today I can kill the Ancient Red Dragon, Blow up the biggest baddest Star Ship in EVE, Kill Darth Vader and the Emperor, then game over, I quit, time to play something else if we are talking RPG.
If we're talking First Person Shooter, then it's kill, be killed, kill be killed, till my fingers hurt, do it again tomorrow, till I've been killed and killed a bazillion times, and it's time for a new setting, new weapons, new maps etc.
i think you are all missing the point. you just as well could have eve with lvls, where you would train a class 1-5 lvl and after you have waited x amout of time to get that lvl put the rewarded class 1-5 skill or feat point in an redicules long skill tree. of course it would be unbelievable stupid to do it that way bacause of how eves skill work. but it has nothing to do with lvls or skill based progression.
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
You are missing the fact that this can be a positive in a game. Maybe not for YOU, but I actually want disparity and segregation in the community. It actually adds a LOT to the game, IMO.
- Exploration. Visiting "Omgzobal" unlock the teleporter to that town.
- Stance to a faction. "The wolfpeople love's me, and sell me stuff for 0.3 % the real price. The lizardmen hate's me".
- Skill vs Mob/Technology. I am 30% faster at killing wolfs. I am 10% faster at mining.
- Balance basic stats. The blood pact with Satanul make my character -10 Str, -5 Chr, but +20 Int, +5 Wis.
- Unlocking more pool points to configure e a char. I have 12 Planetside Battlepoints, this mean I can use the invisible gear, and the engineer gear (to place mines). With 13 points I can fly wisp and with 14 I can also drive tanks. To drive tanks I only need 1 point, but is now consumed to be able to use invisible gear. ( note this system is somewhat complex, but natural, and don't make people any better than others).
- Vehicle skills. (eve style: I have frigates 3 and lazers 2, this mean I can drive a peragus minin-ninja-spy ship. )
Theres a infinite type of systems. Today games only use 1 main (levels) and a few secondarys (unlocking teleportters) but the game could use different standards. And the level one as basic is just bad.
I'll keep this short because I'm posting on an iPhone, but: No, no, no and NO! If you want no levels and stats and instant gratification, go and play an FPS. It's your kind that are hurting MMOs today. I like how you use WoW as an example too, which is probably the easiest crap I've ever played. Took me just over a couple weeks to hit max lvl, and under a week to deck my character out ready to begin raiding.
If you want it easier than that, honestly, please step back and re-consider the genre of game you enjoy.
_________ Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
I'll keep this short because I'm posting on an iPhone, but: No, no, no and NO! If you want no levels and stats and instant gratification, go and play an FPS.
TeamFortress 2 has added "random loot" and "levels". There are better versions of the weapons that are unlock with a number of achievements.
Battlefield 2, and BF2142 also use that system.
Other systems also use that idea of progression.
So If you don't like levels and grinding and progression, you are not safe playing FPS games of today ( :
Another reason I often prefer games without levels is that they are more likely to make me feel like a protagonist. I like to make interesting decisions about what my character would like to achieve next. Obviously, all games allow this to a greater or lesser degree, but there is a tendency in some leveling games for the obvious answer to be "hit the next level".
I think that Guild Wars handled this particularly well by having a very low level cap (20). There are no more levels to chase and your character tends to end up on self-imposed quests for the most exotic skills and items.
EVE eliminated levels altogether and it gives the game enormous freedom. Your character is always self-directed. I'd love to see the philosophy applied in a game in which the PC isn't a spaceship.
In World of Warcraft and CoX, games that rely heavily on levels, I never felt like my characters had much agency. Perhaps that is because I was playing the games wrong since I certainly don't claim to be an expert on either. Still, I didn't seem to be making many choices about what I was going to do. My next goal was almost always "hit the next level".
i think you are all missing the point. you just as well could have eve with lvls, where you would train a class 1-5 lvl and after you have waited x amout of time to get that lvl put the rewarded class 1-5 skill or feat point in an redicules long skill tree. of course it would be unbelievable stupid to do it that way bacause of how eves skill work. but it has nothing to do with lvls or skill based progression.
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
You are missing the fact that this can be a positive in a game. Maybe not for YOU, but I actually want disparity and segregation in the community. It actually adds a LOT to the game, IMO.
On an individual level, yes. A person can feel he is better or more advanced than the others. On a community level, it definitely imposes an artificial divide.The individual level feeling can still be achieved without levels and as such without the split of the community.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Another reason I often prefer games without levels is that they are more likely to make me feel like a protagonist. I like to make interesting decisions about what my character would like to achieve next. Obviously, all games allow this to a greater or lesser degree, but there is a tendency in some leveling games for the obvious answer to be "hit the next level". I think that Guild Wars handled this particularly well by having a very low level cap (20). There are no more levels to chase and your character tends to end up on self-imposed quests for the most exotic skills and items. EVE eliminated levels altogether and it gives the game enormous freedom. Your character is always self-directed. I'd love to see the philosophy applied in a game in which the PC isn't a spaceship. In World of Warcraft and CoX, games that rely heavily on levels, I never felt like my characters had much agency. Perhaps that is because I was playing the games wrong since I certainly don't claim to be an expert on either. Still, I didn't seem to be making many choices about what I was going to do. My next goal was almost always "hit the next level".
Instead of "levels" you have ships. And instead of grinding for XP to gain levels, you grind for money to buy ships.
Yet another reason I would prefer games without levels is that I like to make a lot of alts. Variety is the spice of life. If I'm going to play in a fantasy game, I'm going to want to try out the elementalist, the necromancer, the ranger, the rogue, the warrior and anything else that looks interesting. In the leveling games I have played, all my alts have to move through more or less the same locations fighting more or less the same sorts of foe, since where you can go is determined by what level character you are.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp Instead of "levels" you have ships. And instead of grinding for XP to gain levels, you grind for money to buy ships.
Yes, but ships aren't rated by single criteria like character levels. Characters of the same level are generally supposed to be more or less as effective in combat. In EVE, there is no such single ranking for how good a ship is. It all depends on what the ship is designed to do. My "high-level" mining ship is going to be worse off in a combat than a "low-level" combat ship. EVE thus gives me a lot of freedom to do what I want.
I agree with you that EVE goesn't get rid of grind. Guild Wars did pretty well on that front.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp Instead of "levels" you have ships. And instead of grinding for XP to gain levels, you grind for money to buy ships.
Yes, but ships aren't rated by single criteria like character levels. Characters of the same level are generally supposed to be more or less as effective in combat. In EVE, there is no such single ranking for how good a ship is. It all depends on what the ship is designed to do. My "high-level" mining ship is going to be worse off in a combat than a "low-level" combat ship. EVE thus gives me a lot of freedom to do what I want.
I agree with you that EVE goesn't get rid of grind. Guild Wars did pretty well on that front.
Combat levels, vs crafting levels. I am level 50. I have Armor crafting skills at level fifty.
Mining ship vs combat ship. Same difference, since characters, even in a leveling game, aren't rated by a single criteria where the game implements crafting.
Comments
Max level in a week? Once a themepark MMO has been out more than a year, most MMOs add so many ways for you to level faster and speed through to get to the endgame content where max level in a week is easy. Having pride in a character for being high level is laughable. Level does not equal skill. Play a skill based game where it requires more logic than priest vs. rogue = dead priest.
Maybe to you having pride for having a high level character is laughable because you are one of the people that dont have what it takes to go through the tough process of getting that high level character. Anybody that does anything in life that takes time to accomplish will fell proud of them selves when they finally do what the started trying to do so long ago. Even if you dont play MMOs you should understand this. You say go play a skill based game I say why? What makes a game that makes you grind skills better? If my Fireball is LV 5 and your Fireball is LV 10 I am going to lose and now I have to grind mobs using my LV 5 Fireball over and over and over to get it LV 10. Skill based MMOs are the worst type of MMOs out there. Only game that does uses the skill based system in a good way is EVE. There is a reason why the most popular games on the market are what they are.
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Levels could be implemented intelligently, as a boon to the gameplay.
Unfortunately levels exist in modern MMO's only as a mechanic to keep a customer paying longer. That's it.
its the people like op who ruins the mmorpgs, you whine like crazy ducks, everywhere.. and devs pick on it.. and release some half assed crap , wait till agency gets released, mmorpg without lvling.. i wonder what it actually have, wana make a bet it wont have over 100k subs after 2-3 months ?
cuz im 100% sure it wont
if i wanted jump in AND PEW PEW everyone i would jump into any of 5235235235235236923869034826942308623904 fps there are , i love achievement games, no not the ones like xbox or random achievements they put in fps games
the ones like mmorpgs/rts and in between
you saying it reduce population number.. haha ok lets take this scenario, some new half good mmo gets released.. you pick whatnot class not class, then you go to trainer, it booms 50 skills you can learn for you , tell me how this learning curve gona atract new players?
lvling is best part of mmorpgs if you do it when game launches, specially if you racing to lvl cap, not everyone can do it , not everyone should, but its such great fun, you know what was best about wow wotlk, i might curse it for lack of end game.. but the questing from 70 to 80, was just outstanding
wow isnt sucesfull cuz of new servers.. where you got that.. they get new server once a half year at best , yes there are some rerollers, not enough to fund new servers over and over again
just how ignorant you are calling everyone noobs, and ecetra
dont like the game dont play, get the f.ck off my genre, im already sick of instant action mmorpgs
whats mmorpg to you. you create char, you learn skills, you kill something, learn routine, craft some new items in a day, and then do same exact thing for next 5 years.. awesome, go play cs, it will suit you
Hello? No levels does not mean all characters are as good. You still need to get your skills and gears up and that can take as long time as in a regular MMO.
The difference is that your hit points dont raise as much or not all all but that doesn't mean that you don't get a lot better.
You are talking about some kind of MMO where you always have as good character, like in a FPS game and only gear matters. Most pen and paper RPGs are leveless and you still get a lot better in all of them.
Skillbased FTW!
Well, you are right but leveless games gives as much kick as level based. The both ways are just different ways of keeping track of a characters experience.
If you have a duelist that have 100% in fencing and other important skill or is max levels, it is the same accomplishment. The leveless system is just more flexible and you can get better in certain things fast or everything slow.
You can still become one of the toughest guys on the server, and it usually takes even more work maxing out everything without levels then in a game with them.
It is all to simulate that heroes gets tougher and tougher with time, the only difference is that levels are very non flexible shaping characters that are copies with the possibility to spec in 3 or so ways while if you don't have levels you either have o train or put XP on the skills you can choose for the class you are playing.
Getting better feels good, but the game mechanics wont make the feeling less, even though you can't point on your level but say that you are maxed out with your axe instead.
There are many ways to handle games without levels, some good and some sucks.
Anti Levelling :-
Who wants to spend weeks of real time grinding an awesome undeafetable character. Griefers and trolls.
Thats pretty much it. Players want to pop on do something & leave. Whether thats exploration, combat PvP whatever. PvP where an opponent cannot mathematically win irregardless of skill or gear IS BORING. You want heroic fights challenges. If you can press a button and win the game becomes an exercise in mastrubatory ego indulgence.
No really.
I agree with the OP. The leveling system reduces the number of people I can play with and the game content I can usefully interact with.
I thought that Guild Wars Nightfall hit an excellent balance between forcing people to walk the leveling treadmill and hitting newbies with the fully complexity of the game at once. It has an extensive starting island with xp sufficiently high that by the time you are ready for the main game, you have already reached the level cap. After that, anyone can go anywhere and play with anyone. Advancement isn't over because you are still hunting for skills and equipment.
Until all gear becomes completely cosmetic, you will have a form of leveling no matter what system you use. The only other option is a hidden skill base system where actions are tied into stats you never see and the only bars you get are a stamina, spirit and of course a universal health bar for everyone.
Then the only way you get better with a given weapon, any weapon, is to use it and you'll notice you get faster with it and get a "feel" for it. Which in turn let's you find better ways to cause damage (critical attacks happen more) Same thing for magic. Base them off elements and leave it at that. Fire, wind, water and earth. That's it...no dark, light or any of that other stuff. Fire= dps, Wind=buff, water=heal and earth=debuff. You can "study" all 4 but you have to split your spirit bar into 4 parts. Studying more of 1 type gets you better but that leaves less time to study for the other 3.
And with all these skills as you use them they make either your stamina or spirit bar longer. But the only bar seen by other players would be your health bar. This would completely take the wind out of all elitist sails as everyone could customize themselves to look anyway they want. Only thing other players could do to tell what a player is, is by the type of weapon they used and how well they wield it is entirely up to the honesty of the player.
That would make an interesting experiment....I wonder how long it would take for players to sort themselves out and measure each others worth....
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
You still have a form of leveling even when gear is cosmetic. See: Puzzle Pirates. It's probably the most hardcore game when it comes to leveling because your skill rank/level is measured by your actual ability. A person who sucks at a particular action/feature will never raise their rank until that actually learn to do it better.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You still have a form of leveling even when gear is cosmetic. See: Puzzle Pirates. It's probably the most hardcore game when it comes to leveling because your skill rank/level is measured by your actual ability. A person who sucks at a particular action/feature will never raise their rank until that actually learn to do it better.
When I say cosmetic i mean that at anytime people can make or buy whatever they choose. If you take the "oomph" out of getting gear, it takes away from the whole "looks dictates skills" mentality.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
IMO, RPG = character progression.
It really makes no difference to me if you measure character progression with levels or skills.
I see some advantages in using skills because there is less disparaity in power level between characters, I see some advantages with levels in that they are easier to balance content.
But in the end, progression is progession.
If I can log in the game, and today I can kill the Ancient Red Dragon, Blow up the biggest baddest Star Ship in EVE, Kill Darth Vader and the Emperor, then game over, I quit, time to play something else if we are talking RPG.
If we're talking First Person Shooter, then it's kill, be killed, kill be killed, till my fingers hurt, do it again tomorrow, till I've been killed and killed a bazillion times, and it's time for a new setting, new weapons, new maps etc.
without lvls the game gets boring very fast and skill points and lvl is the same gg
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
You are missing the fact that this can be a positive in a game. Maybe not for YOU, but I actually want disparity and segregation in the community. It actually adds a LOT to the game, IMO.
theres lots of ways to express progression:
- Level . I am level 70 bloodmage.
- Gear. Hat of +1 damage.
- Exploration. Visiting "Omgzobal" unlock the teleporter to that town.
- Stance to a faction. "The wolfpeople love's me, and sell me stuff for 0.3 % the real price. The lizardmen hate's me".
- Skill vs Mob/Technology. I am 30% faster at killing wolfs. I am 10% faster at mining.
- Balance basic stats. The blood pact with Satanul make my character -10 Str, -5 Chr, but +20 Int, +5 Wis.
- Unlocking more pool points to configure e a char. I have 12 Planetside Battlepoints, this mean I can use the invisible gear, and the engineer gear (to place mines). With 13 points I can fly wisp and with 14 I can also drive tanks. To drive tanks I only need 1 point, but is now consumed to be able to use invisible gear. ( note this system is somewhat complex, but natural, and don't make people any better than others).
- Vehicle skills. (eve style: I have frigates 3 and lazers 2, this mean I can drive a peragus minin-ninja-spy ship. )
Theres a infinite type of systems. Today games only use 1 main (levels) and a few secondarys (unlocking teleportters) but the game could use different standards. And the level one as basic is just bad.
I'll keep this short because I'm posting on an iPhone, but: No, no, no and NO! If you want no levels and stats and instant gratification, go and play an FPS. It's your kind that are hurting MMOs today. I like how you use WoW as an example too, which is probably the easiest crap I've ever played. Took me just over a couple weeks to hit max lvl, and under a week to deck my character out ready to begin raiding.
If you want it easier than that, honestly, please step back and re-consider the genre of game you enjoy.
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Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
TeamFortress 2 has added "random loot" and "levels". There are better versions of the weapons that are unlock with a number of achievements.
Battlefield 2, and BF2142 also use that system.
Other systems also use that idea of progression.
So If you don't like levels and grinding and progression, you are not safe playing FPS games of today ( :
Another reason I often prefer games without levels is that they are more likely to make me feel like a protagonist. I like to make interesting decisions about what my character would like to achieve next. Obviously, all games allow this to a greater or lesser degree, but there is a tendency in some leveling games for the obvious answer to be "hit the next level".
I think that Guild Wars handled this particularly well by having a very low level cap (20). There are no more levels to chase and your character tends to end up on self-imposed quests for the most exotic skills and items.
EVE eliminated levels altogether and it gives the game enormous freedom. Your character is always self-directed. I'd love to see the philosophy applied in a game in which the PC isn't a spaceship.
In World of Warcraft and CoX, games that rely heavily on levels, I never felt like my characters had much agency. Perhaps that is because I was playing the games wrong since I certainly don't claim to be an expert on either. Still, I didn't seem to be making many choices about what I was going to do. My next goal was almost always "hit the next level".
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
You are missing the fact that this can be a positive in a game. Maybe not for YOU, but I actually want disparity and segregation in the community. It actually adds a LOT to the game, IMO.
On an individual level, yes. A person can feel he is better or more advanced than the others. On a community level, it definitely imposes an artificial divide.The individual level feeling can still be achieved without levels and as such without the split of the community.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Instead of "levels" you have ships. And instead of grinding for XP to gain levels, you grind for money to buy ships.
OP, all I have to say to you is to go find a genre you like... Obviously MMORPG's aren't for you.
RPG = Progression.
Yet another reason I would prefer games without levels is that I like to make a lot of alts. Variety is the spice of life. If I'm going to play in a fantasy game, I'm going to want to try out the elementalist, the necromancer, the ranger, the rogue, the warrior and anything else that looks interesting. In the leveling games I have played, all my alts have to move through more or less the same locations fighting more or less the same sorts of foe, since where you can go is determined by what level character you are.
Yes, but ships aren't rated by single criteria like character levels. Characters of the same level are generally supposed to be more or less as effective in combat. In EVE, there is no such single ranking for how good a ship is. It all depends on what the ship is designed to do. My "high-level" mining ship is going to be worse off in a combat than a "low-level" combat ship. EVE thus gives me a lot of freedom to do what I want.
I agree with you that EVE goesn't get rid of grind. Guild Wars did pretty well on that front.
Yes, but ships aren't rated by single criteria like character levels. Characters of the same level are generally supposed to be more or less as effective in combat. In EVE, there is no such single ranking for how good a ship is. It all depends on what the ship is designed to do. My "high-level" mining ship is going to be worse off in a combat than a "low-level" combat ship. EVE thus gives me a lot of freedom to do what I want.
I agree with you that EVE goesn't get rid of grind. Guild Wars did pretty well on that front.
Combat levels, vs crafting levels. I am level 50. I have Armor crafting skills at level fifty.
Mining ship vs combat ship. Same difference, since characters, even in a leveling game, aren't rated by a single criteria where the game implements crafting.