You guys say things like that, as if there is no precedent.
Is it the case all of you have only been exposed to RPG combat systems?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Had to vote option 3. This is not a yes or no question. I'd like to have both. I like both styles of play. The question seems to imply all of one or all of another. If a twitch style MMO can be made where your skill determines what you can do and your rewards are advancement in the game world, then yes, that would be cool. I don't want all games like that, but variety is the spice of life.
Depends on how it is done. I do not want to see a massive FPS game labeled as a RPG, but it would be interesting to see how this could work. I am aware of the recent debates on Player skill x Character skill, and I believe that a good MMORPG should have both of them to some extent, perhaps giving some priority to tactical combat. I'd really want to see faster, realistic fights in MMORPGs to some extent, but not as FPS games do it. For example, in most shooters out there in a combat people die in about six seconds, this simply wouldn't work with a MMORPG for me, for I love epic battles sometimes.
It would be interesting to see if the people saying 'no' have ever played DDO content at level 5+ with a group of like minded gamers.
Its also funny how people immediately associate 'twitch' with shooting guns, one shot kills, quick deaths, nearly instant respawn and all that stuff I hate about mainstream FPS games. I want a faster paced combat system that requires player skill and player knowledge but I definitely don't want it to be anything like a FPS multiplayer game.
Played DDO to level 9 on my main and 5-7 on a few alts. Voted no.
I like to keep my genres of games separate with separate mechanics. I don't want to see a FPS with turn based combat or auto lock anymore than I want to see twitch based combat in a RPG.
As long as it is stat based twitch (speed, jump height, accuracy are restricted by stats) for me it is essential, as skill bar clicking does nothing for me and might as well be done by a bot. I should also add it needs to extend to ranged combat as well as melee (no homing projectiles that pass through scenery or other players/mobs lets have a tiny bit of realism if possible).
But please, please, no skill progression by repeating an action, it is one of those ideas that sounds like a good idea, but the reality is people end up just firing a fireball 100s of times to learn how to do something a little bit better. That is so mind numbingly shite in practice, it is better left to those with nothing better to do.
I like the idea that there is a sytem of advancement where one can advance to be better. At least in that way there can be a level playing field. Otherwise it seems that those who excel at a more fps style reactive game will completely destroy those who just physically can't keep up. Not to say that there shouldn't be fps style mmo's. Just not something I would play or might not play for long.
This assumes that the only thing you could do in a MMOFPS is shoot, planetside already proved this wrong, and that other activities can be just as fun/rewarding.
Planetside also proved that horizontal progression is posable, and with the RPG lite that is used, combined with all ability (Certs, like hacking, or combat engineering) having real UTILITY (not just different stats, PS had no stats) can make for something for everyone.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
It would be interesting to see if the people saying 'no' have ever played DDO content at level 5+ with a group of like minded gamers.
Its also funny how people immediately associate 'twitch' with shooting guns, one shot kills, quick deaths, nearly instant respawn and all that stuff I hate about mainstream FPS games. I want a faster paced combat system that requires player skill and player knowledge but I definitely don't want it to be anything like a FPS multiplayer game.
I call it stat based twitch (it isn't FPS which I found limited by its nature), and to be honest I can't play anything without it after DDO. I just don't feel in control of my character in any real sense, if its movement and positioning are pointless, other than getting me from A to B to deliver another parcel or attack another spawn point.
Otherwise it seems that those who excel at a more fps style reactive game will completely destroy those who just physically can't keep up.
I think that's the point of it Sovrath. Make the sack of meat behind the keyboard matter a little bit more.
There are three factors that can effect your performance in a RPG.
Physical ability of the player. This includes reflexes, coordination, vision, etc. If you've ever played Gothic 1 or 2 then you may have noticed that as your character improves so does your play style. Nearly 50% of your character's total power can come from the player's ability to phsically play the game. It doesn't necessarily have to be FPS-style because all games seem to have their own timing, rules, and interface quirks that a player has to adapt to. Shield blocking is a perfect example of this because it requires coordination and reflexes, but doesn't exist in any traditional FPS games.
Knowledge of the player. This is all about knowing your enemy, your skills, your environment, and the game mechanics. For me, this was most noticable in D&D Online. You have to know not to use slashing on an Ooze or it will split. You have to know to use a silver weapon on a vampire to bypass their damage resistance. Knowledge is also essential in most WoW boss encounters. There is simply no way you could kill a WoW raid boss on the first try without knowing exactly what to expect in the encounter.
You character statistics. This is what many people are referring to as RPG although the meaning of RPG has little to do with you character statistics. It could be your level, weapon skill, armor class, strength, etc.
So the question isn't really whether or not we want 'twitch', but rather how much of your character's power should be determined by your player physical ability, player knowledge, and character statistics. They all matter in all games of course. Its just a question of how much they should matter.
I perfer games where there is a pretty even distribution of physical, knowledge, and stats. I've been using a computer for 26 years and I want that to make a difference! I am also a internet junkie and love to read about my favorite games and I want that to make a difference! Unfortunately many newer games that are designed for the masses have essentially eliminated the need for the physical and knowledge aspects of gameplay.
You can't mix a RPG system (Stats/gear/numbers/dierolls), with a Twitch/FPS system (manuial aim/static wepion damage/ETC...), you will disenfranchise both player types.
RPG systems rely on vertical progression of power (its an illusion though, its all on a sliding scale) FPS must use horizontal (AKA: Options, not increases in power).
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I don't want twitch combat in my MMO experience. Twitch combat can be fun, but I burn out on it after a fairly short time. If anything, I want to go in the other direction. I want to slow down combat so that I can see every detail of what's happening and really savor the action. Half speed medieval combat where the players control the movement of the characters a la Euphoria/Endorphin technology. It turns combat into a lethal dance, and every nuance of a battle can be etched in your memory because you can see it all happen at a pace that lets you understand what's going on. When everyone can keep up with the pace of combat, everyone can participate and make it interesting. Instead of players needing lighting reflexes to block a sword blow with a shield, anyone can do that block - if they've been dancing the dance well enough. If their body is turning the wrong way, or they lowered their shield as part of another move, they'll be unable to get the shield into place. They'll need to parry, dodge or just accept the fact that the sword is going to intersect their body. It's 10 years out, but that's what I want to see.
Good dance requires certain intellect so my guess is it will not happen on mass market unless dumbed down to repetitive patterns (and then macroed - so it is a lot of effort for nothing at end).
Currently you can get something similiar in EvE. The game has about 1 second response time but due to (simple) physics engine, dogfighting in small spacecraft is possible.
If EvE had better controls and visual clues and more ephasis on smaller ships it would be almost there.
Actually, good physics engine and you get your dream today. I should get paid for this.
Edit: Be carefull about how much skill you really want in a game where everyone plays on the same level. Playing friendly match against all star team may not be fun for you and lead to realization of you true skills. Or the realization that you are wasting them away.
No thanks. If they start hybridizing MMO's with twitch combat, they may never go back to traditional combat. Too many console gamers would join into the equation, destroying any desires from the PC community. The industry as a whole has been desperately trying to combine the two platforms and it would be a very sad day if they succeed.
Considering how MMO's keep trying to put in twtich style combat lately, I see things really going downhill in the next few years. Champions online is going almost completely down the console path and if it becomes a big hit, you can kiss your traditional MMORPG days goodbye.
I love tactical combat that gives you time to consider your options. I love having my character's skills and abilities matter much more than my reflexes and latency. I love relaxing gameplay and would not look forward to an industry that is chock full of spastic twitch combat that stresses the hell out of me and would defeat the whole reason I play these games. I like keyboard and mouse controls and I'm not interested in connecting an Xbox controller to my PC.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I voted yes. While I do like locked target type games Im getting kinda bored with them. I like FPS type combat but I can't stand to play a FPS because they lack depth like RPG's. I get kinda bored of just shooting people not being able to customize weapons and having charater development is nice.
I really enjoyed Mass Effect It was a perfect combo of RPG and tactical fps IMHO.
I love tactical combat that gives you time to consider your options.
When a game comes out that has tactical combat can you let me know? I'd be more than willing to compromise my desire for physical skill for a game that has real tactics. 99% of MMOG's have brain-dead MOB AI that doesn't allow for any real tactics.
I remember playing WoW when I got a Belkin Speedpad that had full macro recording abilities. My character's attack routine had become so predictable that I was able to make a single macro that would cast my spells in the order I normally cast them. My combat routine became one button. I'm not kidding either. There were no tactics at all. I did the same thing for AoC's Simon Says combo system.
I am a big fan of board games and card games because they force the player to make critical decisions. That kind of critical decision making is almost nonexistant in MMOG's.
I voted yes. While I do like locked target type games Im getting kinda bored with them. I like FPS type combat but I can't stand to play a FPS because they lack depth like RPG's. I get kinda bored of just shooting people not being able to customize weapons and having charater development is nice.
I really enjoyed Mass Effect It was a perfect combo of RPG and tactical fps IMHO.
The question was twitch-based. I think people need to understand that twitch-based is not what Mass Effect is or tactical combat (to an extent). Tactics can be used in twitch, but twitch is Call of Duty, not Mass Effect.
Grenadier's post summed it up well. Basically your character's overall power is a sum of multiple facets (player skill, ability use, and others), and I have fun in games which are pure player skill as much as I have fun in games which are mostly ability use.
I tend to not have as much fun when gear makes up a huge part of the balance of power (and get frustrated if an RPG lets a higher level player PVP me before I'm at that level, since it's a guaranteed loss)
I think Mrbloodworth is somewhat correct that if you create a very playerskill-based game it's very difficult to have verticle gear/level scaling alongside that (lateral progression is great in playerskill-driven games; verticle progression tends to be much riskier.) I'd say a lot of making it work would be presentation - if the player enters the game believing it's a typical FPS and then gets creamed by some guy with a level 99 gun, he's going to be pissed.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
try team fort 2, now the new weapons and functionless but stylish hat items drop. that makes it a mmofpsrpg. ps i dont twitch, i dont have add, i dont do speed. i make planned precise movements and i generally beat twitchy mc crack head.
I hope for those that want this type of game play have a chance of finding it and enjoying it.
My play style does not welcome twitch based games nor would i even try to play them. Varied reasons, but most perfer auto attack and the nice place on the hill kill a bit and chat in guild chat lots.
I wonder if the poll outcome would be different if you would have called it "real time non-auto attack combat" instead of "twitch based" which everyone ascociates with fps's. Or poll it differently like;
Grenadier's post summed it up well. Basically your character's overall power is a sum of multiple facets (player skill, ability use, and others), and I have fun in games which are pure player skill as much as I have fun in games which are mostly ability use. I tend to not have as much fun when gear makes up a huge part of the balance of power (and get frustrated if an RPG lets a higher level player PVP me before I'm at that level, since it's a guaranteed loss) I think Mrbloodworth is somewhat correct that if you create a very playerskill-based game it's very difficult to have verticle gear/level scaling alongside that (lateral progression is great in playerskill-driven games; verticle progression tends to be much riskier.) I'd say a lot of making it work would be presentation - if the player enters the game believing it's a typical FPS and then gets creamed by some guy with a level 99 gun, he's going to be pissed.
If it's a player skill game, I just don't need any progression. Yea, opening up weapon choices in anFPS is kinda fun, but really they don't make THAT much difference. I could do without them. Anyway, they end up being time played. You get points, which open up weapon choices. If you suck, it takes a long time to get the points, if you are good, you get the points quickly, but either way you get them.
Lateral progression is not a plus in games for me.
In an RPG, I like vertical progression. I want my character, not me, to get better over time.
DarkPony it's very misleading to label that poll "realism", when it's not about realism at all. You can have a playerskill-based action MMO which takes place in an unrealistic fantasy world, or a typical skill-button MMO which takes place in realistic modern day earth.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
DarkPony it's very misleading to label that poll "realism", when it's not about realism at all. You can have a playerskill-based action MMO which takes place in an unrealistic fantasy world, or a typical skill-button MMO which takes place in realistic modern day earth.
I agree that none of the options in that poll are more "realistic" than the others.
Comments
Yes but I would hate to be the poor programmer who has to make an mmo responsive enough for twitch style combat.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
You guys say things like that, as if there is no precedent.
Is it the case all of you have only been exposed to RPG combat systems?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Had to vote option 3. This is not a yes or no question. I'd like to have both. I like both styles of play. The question seems to imply all of one or all of another. If a twitch style MMO can be made where your skill determines what you can do and your rewards are advancement in the game world, then yes, that would be cool. I don't want all games like that, but variety is the spice of life.
Depends on how it is done. I do not want to see a massive FPS game labeled as a RPG, but it would be interesting to see how this could work. I am aware of the recent debates on Player skill x Character skill, and I believe that a good MMORPG should have both of them to some extent, perhaps giving some priority to tactical combat. I'd really want to see faster, realistic fights in MMORPGs to some extent, but not as FPS games do it. For example, in most shooters out there in a combat people die in about six seconds, this simply wouldn't work with a MMORPG for me, for I love epic battles sometimes.
Played DDO to level 9 on my main and 5-7 on a few alts. Voted no.
I like to keep my genres of games separate with separate mechanics. I don't want to see a FPS with turn based combat or auto lock anymore than I want to see twitch based combat in a RPG.
Twitch based targeting adds an essential element for long time players like me...
Skill.
Anyone can mash numpad buttons and kill stuff.
youtube.com/gcidogmeat
Probably not.
I like the idea that there is a sytem of advancement where one can advance to be better. At least in that way there can be a level playing field.
Otherwise it seems that those who excel at a more fps style reactive game will completely destroy those who just physically can't keep up.
Not to say that there shouldn't be fps style mmo's. Just not something I would play or might not play for long.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As long as it is stat based twitch (speed, jump height, accuracy are restricted by stats) for me it is essential, as skill bar clicking does nothing for me and might as well be done by a bot. I should also add it needs to extend to ranged combat as well as melee (no homing projectiles that pass through scenery or other players/mobs lets have a tiny bit of realism if possible).
But please, please, no skill progression by repeating an action, it is one of those ideas that sounds like a good idea, but the reality is people end up just firing a fireball 100s of times to learn how to do something a little bit better. That is so mind numbingly shite in practice, it is better left to those with nothing better to do.
This assumes that the only thing you could do in a MMOFPS is shoot, planetside already proved this wrong, and that other activities can be just as fun/rewarding.
Planetside also proved that horizontal progression is posable, and with the RPG lite that is used, combined with all ability (Certs, like hacking, or combat engineering) having real UTILITY (not just different stats, PS had no stats) can make for something for everyone.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I call it stat based twitch (it isn't FPS which I found limited by its nature), and to be honest I can't play anything without it after DDO. I just don't feel in control of my character in any real sense, if its movement and positioning are pointless, other than getting me from A to B to deliver another parcel or attack another spawn point.
I think that's the point of it Sovrath. Make the sack of meat behind the keyboard matter a little bit more.
There are three factors that can effect your performance in a RPG.
So the question isn't really whether or not we want 'twitch', but rather how much of your character's power should be determined by your player physical ability, player knowledge, and character statistics. They all matter in all games of course. Its just a question of how much they should matter.
I perfer games where there is a pretty even distribution of physical, knowledge, and stats. I've been using a computer for 26 years and I want that to make a difference! I am also a internet junkie and love to read about my favorite games and I want that to make a difference! Unfortunately many newer games that are designed for the masses have essentially eliminated the need for the physical and knowledge aspects of gameplay.
You can't mix a RPG system (Stats/gear/numbers/dierolls), with a Twitch/FPS system (manuial aim/static wepion damage/ETC...), you will disenfranchise both player types.
RPG systems rely on vertical progression of power (its an illusion though, its all on a sliding scale) FPS must use horizontal (AKA: Options, not increases in power).
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Good dance requires certain intellect so my guess is it will not happen on mass market unless dumbed down to repetitive patterns (and then macroed - so it is a lot of effort for nothing at end).
Currently you can get something similiar in EvE. The game has about 1 second response time but due to (simple) physics engine, dogfighting in small spacecraft is possible.
If EvE had better controls and visual clues and more ephasis on smaller ships it would be almost there.
Actually, good physics engine and you get your dream today. I should get paid for this.
Edit: Be carefull about how much skill you really want in a game where everyone plays on the same level. Playing friendly match against all star team may not be fun for you and lead to realization of you true skills. Or the realization that you are wasting them away.
No thanks. If they start hybridizing MMO's with twitch combat, they may never go back to traditional combat. Too many console gamers would join into the equation, destroying any desires from the PC community. The industry as a whole has been desperately trying to combine the two platforms and it would be a very sad day if they succeed.
Considering how MMO's keep trying to put in twtich style combat lately, I see things really going downhill in the next few years. Champions online is going almost completely down the console path and if it becomes a big hit, you can kiss your traditional MMORPG days goodbye.
I love tactical combat that gives you time to consider your options. I love having my character's skills and abilities matter much more than my reflexes and latency. I love relaxing gameplay and would not look forward to an industry that is chock full of spastic twitch combat that stresses the hell out of me and would defeat the whole reason I play these games. I like keyboard and mouse controls and I'm not interested in connecting an Xbox controller to my PC.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I voted yes. While I do like locked target type games Im getting kinda bored with them. I like FPS type combat but I can't stand to play a FPS because they lack depth like RPG's. I get kinda bored of just shooting people not being able to customize weapons and having charater development is nice.
I really enjoyed Mass Effect It was a perfect combo of RPG and tactical fps IMHO.
When a game comes out that has tactical combat can you let me know? I'd be more than willing to compromise my desire for physical skill for a game that has real tactics. 99% of MMOG's have brain-dead MOB AI that doesn't allow for any real tactics.
I remember playing WoW when I got a Belkin Speedpad that had full macro recording abilities. My character's attack routine had become so predictable that I was able to make a single macro that would cast my spells in the order I normally cast them. My combat routine became one button. I'm not kidding either. There were no tactics at all. I did the same thing for AoC's Simon Says combo system.
I am a big fan of board games and card games because they force the player to make critical decisions. That kind of critical decision making is almost nonexistant in MMOG's.
The question was twitch-based. I think people need to understand that twitch-based is not what Mass Effect is or tactical combat (to an extent). Tactics can be used in twitch, but twitch is Call of Duty, not Mass Effect.
Grenadier's post summed it up well. Basically your character's overall power is a sum of multiple facets (player skill, ability use, and others), and I have fun in games which are pure player skill as much as I have fun in games which are mostly ability use.
I tend to not have as much fun when gear makes up a huge part of the balance of power (and get frustrated if an RPG lets a higher level player PVP me before I'm at that level, since it's a guaranteed loss)
I think Mrbloodworth is somewhat correct that if you create a very playerskill-based game it's very difficult to have verticle gear/level scaling alongside that (lateral progression is great in playerskill-driven games; verticle progression tends to be much riskier.) I'd say a lot of making it work would be presentation - if the player enters the game believing it's a typical FPS and then gets creamed by some guy with a level 99 gun, he's going to be pissed.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'd love to play an MMOFPSRPG.
I'm recently replaying Mass Effect and would love to see the gameplay replicated in an MMO.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
try team fort 2, now the new weapons and functionless but stylish hat items drop. that makes it a mmofpsrpg. ps i dont twitch, i dont have add, i dont do speed. i make planned precise movements and i generally beat twitchy mc crack head.
No for my vote
I hope for those that want this type of game play have a chance of finding it and enjoying it.
My play style does not welcome twitch based games nor would i even try to play them. Varied reasons, but most perfer auto attack and the nice place on the hill kill a bit and chat in guild chat lots.
I wonder if the poll outcome would be different if you would have called it "real time non-auto attack combat" instead of "twitch based" which everyone ascociates with fps's. Or poll it differently like;
Edit: poll question is short on an "r". Soz.
My brand new bloggity blog.
If it's a player skill game, I just don't need any progression. Yea, opening up weapon choices in anFPS is kinda fun, but really they don't make THAT much difference. I could do without them. Anyway, they end up being time played. You get points, which open up weapon choices. If you suck, it takes a long time to get the points, if you are good, you get the points quickly, but either way you get them.
Lateral progression is not a plus in games for me.
In an RPG, I like vertical progression. I want my character, not me, to get better over time.
DarkPony it's very misleading to label that poll "realism", when it's not about realism at all. You can have a playerskill-based action MMO which takes place in an unrealistic fantasy world, or a typical skill-button MMO which takes place in realistic modern day earth.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I agree that none of the options in that poll are more "realistic" than the others.