There is a easy solution to this.. I dont know why any developer wont see over it
Its time = exp If they make a long awsome quest then reward the players with the exp and items accordingly
If its you get 10x better items and exp from doing boring fast quests then people will do it instead I have played hundreds of mmo and almost NONE award the players enough for those hard to do quests and long quest chains. If I need to run 10000 miles to deliver something that takes me 20 min and get 50 exp or kill 2 mobs in 20 sec and get 50 exp what do they think everyone will do?
Its so simple to fix REWARD THE PLAYERS according to the time it takes. The developers have created this themselfs and not the players.
I don't think that's quite the point, I mean, you're still aiming at the rewards, not the journey itself. Quests should be enjoyable, the way that they are currently designed is just too dull. You don't learn anything, you don't do anything significant, you just repeat a bunch of pointless tasks and get rewarded for that without a reason at all. They should change the whole thing, not just the rewards. The whole "kill 1000 X" quests are already boring as hell, and have no purpose whatsoever, nobody enjoys completing them, they enjoy gaining rewards.
It staggers me how one of the very 1st mmo's out there had it so right for so long and everything that followed just went downhill game by game
That would be UO of course... no levels, no grinding... spend the day talking to mates, looking around players shops, making yourself an outfit, spend all day in a dungeon, go on a pub crawl (did this often)....
Damn, so many many good days of doing practically nothing but ENJOYING the experience of doing nothing lol
All comes down to choices in my opinion, don't want to quest tonight? Go decorate your house, do some fishing, sail about on a boat, do a treasure hunt, go claim a bounty on a red pk'er...
How did it all come down to this endless grind?
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep. ~Navajo Proverb
if you get down to the basics of mmos they consist of basically watching 10 little blobs go to a different colour then you get a ding a number goes up then you get to fill another 10 little blobs and wait the ding. then after the number has reached a maximum your entire life either revolves around making another different 10 blobs and a ding. OR aquiring little purple items that slot into a grid and everyone goes oo oyou got purple x item
the problem ive found is that noone wants to have fun blowing up big mosters. People want large areas where we all congregate and not spread out in our own little instances.
The problem with the journey is that mmo companies think we all want to live in the same story, i dont like questing i see it worse than grinding the difference being is you have to find npcs with circles over their heads. To make the journey more fun dont put in little bubbles and dings that way people wont be just watching that and instead might actually enjoy the game.
I especially like the part about the players being part of the problem. I realized this a few years ago and immediately started working on my point of view. Now I play MMO's for the fun that they offer, without feeling rushed by the rest of the community. However, I'm a minority and I am very irritated with the MMO community to the point where they will likely lose a dedicated, skilled, and fun person to be around. While I may be okay taking my time, reading the quests, and actually enjoying the journey; while I may choose a class based off its concept and theme, and spec them according to my ideal representation of that class and theme; and while I may be able to make use of any class, spec, and have the skill to make the improbable work in group dungeons, I am in the minority. Since MMO's at its core is about grouping up with others at some point or another, being in the minority is actually harmful, which is actually driving me away from MMO's. Because I refuse to get into the rush to endgame, use the optimized class/spec, I fall behind on raids and may not even get invites to raids. However, since returning to WoW, I've been playing the game my way and so far I've impressed quite a few people with what they thought was improbably, such as 3-4 manning Gnomer as a Ret Pally, but healing, dealing from what they said, great dps, and tanking some, all at the same time.
So in summary, I feel players are more of the problem than MMO design, because MMO design actually has evolved if people would give an unbiased look at it. I think WoW is a fantastic game and representation of the genre, even though it has its own flaws, which I'd hope future MMO's would learn from and evolve into something even better. Yet, players are too hung up on speed, efficiency, and optimization, that they lose focus of why they even started playing MMO's to begin with. Not to mention, players put more emphasis on raids and pvp at end game, when you can play in some very nice dungeons and battlegrounds along the way. The difference is that in the lack of epic encounters you have at end game, you instead get to follow various story lines, spanning across many different zones, with different looks and feels to them.
I've learned that part of adjusting my view of MMO's is to except that they're not designed to last a person for years, they are designed like a game in any other genre, meaning the game does have a beginning and an end, even though the end is farther off than games in other genres. The more hardcore you play, the shorter the lifespan of the game is. The more casual you play, the longer the lifespan of the game, and if you're the type that likes to replay games with a different class or by taking a different path, the game may even provide enough content until each expansion releases, making the game actually last for years and still feel fresh.
Anyways, I got off to a rant, but this was a good article.
Two things I hate in MMOs Levels and Gated content. This dude is spot on. Make everything useful and fun. The journey is the game. This is why I play Open ended games.
To add to your list...they should never remove content and items...they need to add. It should be a PERSISTENT WORLD.
I agree that a company shouldn't make content obsolete with updates and expansions, however, a persistent world? MMOs are persistent worlds, because the world continues to exist whether you're online or not. You never can save your character, can never reload the game, and appear in the gameworld where you last was when logging. That by any MMO company definition is a persistent world. But I know what you mean, you want a world that provides an alternate life, but through virtual means. While I used to want the same thing, and part of me does, it just isn't feasible. For one, games like that require way too much time and effort to be called a game. A better name for them would be "an alternate life," because you would need to spend your real life playing the game to obtain any real measure of success in any acceptable amount of time. A game that requires a person to forsake their real life to succeed in a game life only draws and promotes unhealthy individuals. Fortunately for our world, there are less of those people wanting to play games than there are responsible people who would like to play a game, but not at the expense of their real life, so it's not profitable catering to the no-lifers; instead, companies need to cater to people who have lives, thus a story driven game online, where you can solo or group is the common sense approach and the most profitable.
I really think most of this is caused by a couple of things: (1) Poor content design.
Really, quests in MMO are near assinine. Why? They have no impact on the world. I don't really care about the lore, but I know that if Herr Bearkiller needs 10 pieces of bear jerky to live, he's just going to need the same 10 pieces from the next schlub that comes along. I also know that if I don't feed his starving carcass, he'll still be there when I come back again. So why would I care anything about his story/lore/or what not other than an XP perspective. The only aspect of my game experience that changed would be some arbitrary number. He's the same whether or not he tells me his perscribed bit of content. He's the same whether or not I accept his stupid collect X quest. (2) Some people need to compensate for other things.
Wink wink nudge nudge. Everyone has to have a bigger E-Peen. Look at all the SWG vets that complain years after their game was changed. When you corner one and get to the heart of his argument, it comes down to they had grinded level after level to become a Jedi and then BAM, everyone was. Sure there is more areguments there, but that's the core of why people need to race ahead. We don't like to see people better than us. No one wants to be the wimpy kid that gets sand kicked in their face when Uber McPlaysalot comes along with his raid gear that he's collected over two decades of play. Additionally, those same types are the ones on the boards who talk about how they soloed their own 25 man raid and can kill <insert mob> while playing the bagpipes and watching Sandord and Son reruns. It seems to be an inherent trait of MMOs that people have to talk about how uber they are. Still it is one of the last bastions where the unemployed social pariah has a distinct leg up in society. Want to run a raid on Friday night? Sure! I'm in! (3) MMOs are terrible PvP games, yet people do it anyway.
This is kind of a corralary to #2, people for some reason want to do PvP in a MMO... why? Beyond the class imbalances, power imbalances, lag, item imbalances, and who knows what other problems, people still want to PvP/Duel or whatnot. So it kind of makes sense that if you are going to do that you want every edge you can get (see #2). Yet if you really want PvP, and want to talk about mad skills then play something like Counter Strike or Crysis or anything that time/money don't determine the outcome. (4) Everyone has to have the best.
It doesn't matter if getting the best ruins the game for you. It's they best. You have. to. have. it. To not have it implys that you are not the best (see #2). Far to many of us have been treated like precious snowflakes all our life and the words you can't have it or wait for it really don't enter the equation all that often (fellow American's I'm really looking at you here... see credit crunch for proof). So if the best is at the end, then please step aside Mr. EscortMeToAZone, I'm coming through and I don't have time to read why you need to get somewhere. There's some shiney loot at the end of this XP tunnel with my name on it. So there you have it. Why don't I care about the delectable tidbits devs toss into games?
* They don't matter
* They slow me down from being uber
* If I'm not uber I can't win PvP bouts
* I need the best and the best is at the end
Do you realize that the use of the word everyone indicates you are implicating yourself, me, and the several billion people who live in this world to build your arguments around? All it takes is 1 person that doesn't conform to this idea you have of people to completely prove your argument wrong, making anything else you have to say questionable. So let me tell you about myself.
1. MMO content cannot be disposable in the way that once you complete a quest, it disappears from the world forever. The reason why is because only the hardcore would see the best content before it disappears forever. Everything costs money, and the developers could never keep up with the pace people consume content. Also, what would change for one person in a MMORPG, would likely have to change for everyone, making the MMO instable and probably unplayable, since everytime the several thousand players on a server completes a quest, the entire server would have to reload to show the changes that quest had on the world. Not to mention, the only real way to do this is to implement phasing, which GW, WoW, and LoTRO has done, but even it can't be done every single time a person completes a quest. It's not reasonable, realistic, and anyone suggesting it lacks common sense. Plus, WoW for example actually has some good quests. Take humans for example, you have the defias storyline that spans lvl 1-20, the black rock orc storyline that spans lvl 16-27ish and so on. Each zone has a storyline that you follow if you'd bother to actually read the quests, so your comment isn't 100% true either.
2. You said everyone has to have a bigger e-peen. Well, I could care less about my e-peen and actually even dislike the term. It shows a persons lack of intelligence to even give that word any weight in the English language. I do not need to compete with others online, nor do I have a strong desire to. I play MMO's to have fun with other people, not to have better stats, gear, spec, or kill ratios.
3. My first game was DAoC. I picked that game up, because I liked the sound of playing with other people, to swear loyalty and defend a realm, and that it all could last me for several years. I didn't care about the amount of kills I got, if I got the killing blow, or anything else. All I cared about was that my realm was free of invaders and that the people I played with were nice. People were nice, I had a great time leveling in groups, and RvR was fun for a while. Now I don't PvP at all, and for most of the reasons you stated. There just isn't anyway to make PvP balanced and dying every couple minutes and waiting for a respawn timer isn't fun either. But that's okay, because like you said, if I want to PvP, I can just play a FPS game on multiplayer mode.
4. You said everyone has to be the best. Well, I don't. In fact, all I care about is seeing everything the devs have to offer. I don't need to compare myself nor do I compare myself to others. I don't care if gear is blue, purple, gold or whatever, because it's just gear. I do like how some gear looks, and may shoot for it for purely aesthetic reasons, but I don't try and get gear to be better than another person or to show off. I do it, because I like to look at it. I don't choose a class based on how good they do in any particular part of a game, instead, I choose a class based on its concept and lore. I don't choose a spec based on what people say is the best or what's socially acceptable, instead, I choose a spec based on what I figure out to be the best spec for my playstyle.
What's nice is that how I am in-game is no different than how I am in life. I don't dress a certain way, talk a certain way, or act a certain way because that's what I'm told to do, or because it's what society expects of me. No, I am an independent person who dresses based on what I think looks good, I talk in a way that serves its purpose, which is communication, and I act in a way I find to be appropriate for me.
So really, your whole argument is flawed, because you made the mistake of acting like you knew what I want, do, or expect in a game.
I would also add that MMO's, unlike single player games and FPS, are about competition and comparing your character to the rest. By having levels and the best loot at the end its no surprise people want to rush it out to become a high profile figure in the game.
Pre-Cu solved this by having a skill system which did not reveal any "competence" about your character at all, and the economy was all player-driven. As such, people were more likely to enjoy the mid-way content without feeling inferior to other players as well as changing skills and professions altogether.
Two things I hate in MMOs Levels and Gated content. This dude is spot on. Make everything useful and fun. The journey is the game. This is why I play Open ended games.
To add to your list...they should never remove content and items...they need to add. It should be a PERSISTENT WORLD.
I agree that a company shouldn't make content obsolete with updates and expansions, however, a persistent world? MMOs are persistent worlds, because the world continues to exist whether you're online or not. You never can save your character, can never reload the game, and appear in the gameworld where you last was when logging. That by any MMO company definition is a persistent world. But I know what you mean, you want a world that provides an alternate life, but through virtual means. While I used to want the same thing, and part of me does, it just isn't feasible. For one, games like that require way too much time and effort to be called a game. A better name for them would be "an alternate life," because you would need to spend your real life playing the game to obtain any real measure of success in any acceptable amount of time. A game that requires a person to forsake their real life to succeed in a game life only draws and promotes unhealthy individuals. Fortunately for our world, there are less of those people wanting to play games than there are responsible people who would like to play a game, but not at the expense of their real life, so it's not profitable catering to the no-lifers; instead, companies need to cater to people who have lives, thus a story driven game online, where you can solo or group is the common sense approach and the most profitable.
Simply being there when I log on is NOT a persistent world. By persistent world I mean not removing that of which was earned within the game...removing items or accomplishments or replacing said items or making items completely worthless. The game world must remain persistent. Change is fine...but do it by adding to the world not taking away.
Most people who play LOTRO would wholeheartedly agree that its one of the very few games that you actually enjoy the journey to the end-game, and then the end-game itself. I gotta read the blog then I'll have more thoughts . But LOTRO is probably the best developed game where you can enjoy the journey in all of its glory.
I have mixed feelings on this one. I could never get past level 20, because I found combat to be very bland as are the classes. Now I know many people share my opinion on this, but it's still just an opinion. So for me, while LoTRO had an awesome environement and well written quests, it just wasn't fun doing them due to the boringness of the classes and combat. It just didn't connect for me. Add to that the fact that people rush throught he book quests, because they've done them a hundred times ruins it. People would tell you to join a guild, but the fact about that is not even guilds can promise you that they will be available whenever you reach a book quest. I love how groups in DAoC were created from just a bunch of strangers online, not usually a group of guildies and I believe that's how it should be, because there are far more people available to play with on the server level, rather than the guild level.
I actually enjoy the journey in WOW, because I've played WC 3 and understand the lore. So when I read quests and get into the story lines that may reference things that a person knowing the lore would appreciate, I get into it. It's sad how the best story lines, which actually progress the meaningful storylines from the warcraft series exist in raid environments, because a person is at the mercy of other people to experience that part of the story, and MMO players are just so messed up now, that they'll only invite people who are the class, spec, and gear level they think would optimize their raid ability. So instead of inviting random people, making do and learning how to work with what you have, you have people scientifically building groups that will plow through raids.
I've played EQ, SWG, DAoC, CoH/CoV, DDO.. I am sure I am forgetting a couple, but most important is my current game of Lord of the Rings Online.
In LOTRO, your character has an epic quest that parallels and intersects with the Fellowship's journey. These quests give you awesome items, too. There are a lot of things you can't do if you haven't progressed your epic quests appropriately. They have the right idea to go with the ideal MMO we all want.
Imagine playing an MMO that has no experience system. I think that's pretty much the only way to eliminate the level issue. As long as there are numbers, people will strive to reach the max ASAP. I personally don't know how I would handle such a game. Every MMO I've played over the past 13 years had a leveling and experience system. It wouldn't *feel* like it's supposed to.
Just because it's new and out of your comfort zone doesn't mean it will suck, however. I think it's 100% possible to develop an MMO with no levels and story-based progression along with the niceties like crafting and sparring. Maybe it could be made so there isn't even an option to attack someone who hasn't gotten as far as you to minimize disgruntled noobs.
There's definitely a market for this sort of MMO. I wonder if anyone will take a gamble.
I largely agree with the author. As has already been mentioned, the game the author is describing is Guild Wars. You stop levelling at 20 and instead, you push forward the story line to get to new areas of the world. I've had more fun playing Guild Wars than any other game.
Having said that, there is something I would like even better, which would be for the "storyline" to be about the decisions I make, instead of a railroad through the game-designer's story. I loved Guild Wars, but I never could bring myself to care much about the fate of Prince Rurik or whether Nightfall would come.
Fun's not just an ill-defined term, but an overused one. There are countless activities that people spend their leisure time pursuing, but which don't really fit the "fun" category; learning a language, decorating, making clothes, painting watercolors, fishing, training for a marathon, building a model railway, gardening, learning to juggle... a milion human activities that, while you are doing them can seem like anything but "fun", yet you choose to do them all the same.
MMOs are more akin to this kind of activity than to pure "fun" experiences like going to a theme park or a blockbuster movie. You do things that aren't intrinsically "fun" and after completing them you have either a sense of achievement or a visible outcome or, best of all, both. In MMOs, the visible outcome is your character, which is a never-ending work-in-progress. Like a project you know you'll never quite complete, your character provides endless opportunity for tinkering and modifying. You secretly hope it will never be "ready".
At least, that's how I see MMOs. The OP seems more interested in the activity; the "game". I spend my time in MMOs for many reasons, but the primary one is the building of the character. I'm not really all that bothered with what I do with the character; building it is an end in itself.
As for storylines, that would be close to last in a list of things I come to MMOs for. Storylines are actively unwelcome, and the idea of being required to follow one in order to progress would have me progressing away from that MMO entirely. Stories are far beter told in a number of other media, where the reader or viewer isn't asked to perform tasks before being thrown each small gobbet of plot.
Fun's not just an ill-defined term, but an overused one. There are countless activities that people spend their leisure time pursuing, but which don't really fit the "fun" category; learning a language, decorating, making clothes, painting watercolors, fishing, training for a marathon, building a model railway, gardening, learning to juggle... a milion human activities that, while you are doing them can seem like anything but "fun", yet you choose to do them all the same. MMOs are more akin to this kind of activity than to pure "fun" experiences like going to a theme park or a blockbuster movie. You do things that aren't intrinsically "fun" and after completing them you have either a sense of achievement or a visible outcome or, best of all, both. In MMOs, the visible outcome is your character, which is a never-ending work-in-progress. Like a project you know you'll never quite complete, your character provides endless opportunity for tinkering and modifying. You secretly hope it will never be "ready". At least, that's how I see MMOs. The OP seems more interested in the activity; the "game". I spend my time in MMOs for many reasons, but the primary one is the building of the character. I'm not really all that bothered with what I do with the character; building it is an end in itself. As for storylines, that would be close to last in a list of things I come to MMOs for. Storylines are actively unwelcome, and the idea of being required to follow one in order to progress would have me progressing away from that MMO entirely. Stories are far beter told in a number of other media, where the reader or viewer isn't asked to perform tasks before being thrown each small gobbet of plot.
To each his own but countless hours of level/gear grinding is not my idea of entertainment. For me a good MMO should be more of an adventure leaving me with memories of things seen and done. However a well designed MMO can provide something for everyone. WoW comes close to this. Yes for all the harsh comments it recieves the game world has a lot going for ir.
While the basic idea is a nice one, its about as likely as world peace. Sure, it d be nice to have and everyone would be better off in theory, but its not going to happen due to human nature kicking in.
In MMOs, that human nature is the urge to get to the top of any given heap, or more importantly, the need for progress. No matter how you slice it, as long as you can outlevel, outplay, outskill or outwhatever content, it ll be done, and if you are dealing with the mainstream audience, it ll be done really quick and efficiently after a while.
The developers are, by and large, just accommodating this behaviour, and trying to channel it into something they can use to make a game work. For everyone I know that likes Guild Wars for the fact that, esp. in Factions and Nightfall, the levelling stops after 1/3 of the game, and the story goes on, I know at least one person who dislikes exactly that fact, stating that they dont feel like their character is advancing much, and that storyline is just an excuse for giving out xp.
The journey needs to be a minimum of fun, yeah. But the mainstream audience, which is what you have to market for most of the time, does not feel happy if they see people ahead of them, and will strive to speed up the journey anyway.
Even the most laid back and oldschool communities, like in Vanguard, quickly found and emphasized quest hubs that were crap, but gave lots of exp in a short amount of time.
You cannot design counter the drive of the players. You can nudge here and there, try to teach different things, but the overwhelming influence is the need to achieve, to be fast, efficient, get to the goal. Its ingrained in our society, and a game will pay dearly if it tries to get away from that in the current market.
Having said that, there is something I would like even better, which would be for the "storyline" to be about the decisions I make, instead of a railroad through the game-designer's story. I loved Guild Wars, but I never could bring myself to care much about the fate of Prince Rurik or whether Nightfall would come.
Well, it seems like Bioware is working on this. And I agree, problem is in GW you can never really affect the story.
And I actually laughted when Rurik bought the farm, he was such a moron...
I agree that part of this is the fault of the players. I played EQ1 like a level maniac, but when i realized it would take a year to hit 50 (at the rate i played), i started again with no intention to even hit 40. It was much more fun the second time around because i wasn't playing with a levels in mind.
I've learned my lesson, i get my fun at the lower levels, ignore the upper levels. A fireball is a fireball whether its 100 damage or 2. Play while its fun, then get out. No grinding for me.
But the problem for game developers, what is to keep me playing. If its the same 20 missions no matter what class/race i play, then we have a problem. They have to give you 30 ways through the lower levels that are different enough. Not completely different, but different enough to make it interesting. The game has to be REPLAYABLE. That will keep the money coming in while keeping it fun. Not pushing the max level to 70 or 80.
A good example is EQ. EQ at least had 10 different races and 5 different classes that all played different. Each race played different as did the class. That was 50 ways to start off. And they didn't all lead to the same main story line throughout. You weren't put on rails, it was more like a sandbox.
Well for once i have to say a writer or anyone for that matter actually sees the genre as i do.The mad dash to end game/levels and the perception that means you are a better player is ridiculous,but that is what the players have become,as stated..."Broken players".
One thing i am not so sure on is the quality quests and players crying about them.I have yet to see these quality quests in most games and i have not seen much in the way of complaining about quality quests. I know for a fact i would not complain about quality quests.For myself any game that utilizes a lot of effort into a massive crafting/questing game would be on my good list,but it has to be done well>>quality >quantity.
I have seen a decent quest design done in EQ2 and EQ using the idea of a quest line.WHat i liked about doing EQ2 was killing mobs,you could get a quest or spawn a boss and get decent rewards,i liked that idea alot.
I wish the OP came up with some ideas on how to make the gaming experience fun instead of a speed dash to end level.I offered my ideas awhile ago,one was utilizing the NPC's a LOT more including voice overs and NPC's joining in battles or traveling alongside players.NPC's are suppose to be the main part of the world,and we have yet to see any developer utilize them to it's fullest extent.I have seen small bits and pieces but not much at all.
We could also have more puzzles and uique ideas involved in boss killing rather than just warping through a portal or gaining access.You could have different locks and puzzles and NPC's and mobs every day to make the experience different.This is something else we have yet to see from ANY game....have multiple spawns for the same nodes ,including NPC's or mobs.How about the FFXI ideas like Besieged or Campaign battles?how about a quest or idea like FFXI where you start naked and have to work your way through the zone to gain back your weapons and armour.Perhaps a knockout system ,where by 8 players enter a zone and only one can enter the final battle to fight the boss,so it brings into play the PVP aspect that so many love.You could also do it with groups of 6 or 5 or 4.So again this offers more than just warping to a zone and fight the boss utilizing said methods attained form the internet.That gets old and boring as does leveling.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Easiest way is making a single player RPG then adding the multiplayer for people to cooperate or do other activities together (which is almost basically a RPG with co-op). (Guildwars except quest progression is necessary?)
Unfortunantly, that would not work. In a single player RPG the player is the sole focus of the game. Everything revolves around him and he is a walking god among men. He can feel powerful because nothing and no one can challenge him.
Now, add in 5000 other players. Each one of them is going to expect that feeling of power, and they are going to measure it as compared to the other players. Now you have balance issues, overpowered abilities, underpowered abilities. Worse, each players view of where their characters abilities are in relation to everyone elses characters is going to be skewed in their own favor.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Well for once i have to say a writer or anyone for that matter actually sees the genre as i do.The mad dash to end game/levels and the perception that means you are a better player is ridiculous,but that is what the players have become,as stated..."Broken players". One thing i am not so sure on is the quality quests and players crying about them.I have yet to see these quality quests in most games and i have not seen much in the way of complaining about quality quests. I know for a fact i would not complain about quality quests.For myself any game that utilizes a lot of effort into a massive crafting/questing game would be on my good list,but it has to be done well>>quality >quantity. I have seen a decent quest design done in EQ2 and EQ using the idea of a quest line.WHat i liked about doing EQ2 was killing mobs,you could get a quest or spawn a boss and get decent rewards,i liked that idea alot.
I am playing EQ2 these days, on a level locked Mystic. As I progress through each area, I turn off my xp until I have done the majority of the quests and fully explored all the zones.
No race to end game, no outleveling content before I am done with it, no cares if anyone else happens to be higher level then me.
Now, if only more people would slow down and enjoy the journey.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Originally posted by Nightbringe1 Originally posted by Wizardry Well for once i have to say a writer or anyone for that matter actually sees the genre as i do.The mad dash to end game/levels and the perception that means you are a better player is ridiculous,but that is what the players have become,as stated..."Broken players". One thing i am not so sure on is the quality quests and players crying about them.I have yet to see these quality quests in most games and i have not seen much in the way of complaining about quality quests. I know for a fact i would not complain about quality quests.For myself any game that utilizes a lot of effort into a massive crafting/questing game would be on my good list,but it has to be done well>>quality >quantity. I have seen a decent quest design done in EQ2 and EQ using the idea of a quest line.WHat i liked about doing EQ2 was killing mobs,you could get a quest or spawn a boss and get decent rewards,i liked that idea alot.
I am playing EQ2 these days, on a level locked Mystic. As I progress through each area, I turn off my xp until I have done the majority of the quests and fully explored all the zones. No race to end game, no outleveling content before I am done with it, no cares if anyone else happens to be higher level then me. Now, if only more people would slow down and enjoy the journey.
I'm also playing some alts in EQ2 currently with xp off for the same reasons (even thinking about re-rolling my old main for the same reasons). The article is good and I agree completely. I've personally always hated the whole level/class based model that the vast majority of MMO's slavishly follow. I've always hated the whole concept of holy "end-game" (I usually get bored with a game before I get to it anyway). I've never been at all a fan of PvP, but I must say the skill based open sand-box world that Mortal online is at least talking about (no idea if they'll actually pull it off) does sound appealing.
Well for once i have to say a writer or anyone for that matter actually sees the genre as i do.The mad dash to end game/levels and the perception that means you are a better player is ridiculous,but that is what the players have become,as stated..."Broken players". One thing i am not so sure on is the quality quests and players crying about them.I have yet to see these quality quests in most games and i have not seen much in the way of complaining about quality quests. I know for a fact i would not complain about quality quests.For myself any game that utilizes a lot of effort into a massive crafting/questing game would be on my good list,but it has to be done well>>quality >quantity. I have seen a decent quest design done in EQ2 and EQ using the idea of a quest line.WHat i liked about doing EQ2 was killing mobs,you could get a quest or spawn a boss and get decent rewards,i liked that idea alot.
I am playing EQ2 these days, on a level locked Mystic. As I progress through each area, I turn off my xp until I have done the majority of the quests and fully explored all the zones.
No race to end game, no outleveling content before I am done with it, no cares if anyone else happens to be higher level then me.
Now, if only more people would slow down and enjoy the journey.
You know, I can't stand SOE much, but I have to hand it to them for creating such a large world, with so many classes, and more quests than WoW could hope to have. It's one reason I've thought of playing EQ2. I've only ever made it to around lvl 20ish and I just couldn't get into the game. I play WoW right now, and what has me sucked into the game is the lore and story behind it. I love the story of the orcs against humans, because neither are completely innocent or at fault for what went on. I love the story of the elves, their eternal life being lost, of the scourge, the former liche king, and Arthas. I love the lore behind the Paladins and their coronation, mages, and druids with Emerald Dream. It's all such a captivating tale with a lot of sorrow when the beautiful is destroyed, the brave being forsaken, and hero's becoming villians through tough, yet unavoidable choices. I just don't get that lore or story with EQ2.
Comments
I don't think that's quite the point, I mean, you're still aiming at the rewards, not the journey itself. Quests should be enjoyable, the way that they are currently designed is just too dull. You don't learn anything, you don't do anything significant, you just repeat a bunch of pointless tasks and get rewarded for that without a reason at all. They should change the whole thing, not just the rewards. The whole "kill 1000 X" quests are already boring as hell, and have no purpose whatsoever, nobody enjoys completing them, they enjoy gaining rewards.
It staggers me how one of the very 1st mmo's out there had it so right for so long and everything that followed just went downhill game by game
That would be UO of course... no levels, no grinding... spend the day talking to mates, looking around players shops, making yourself an outfit, spend all day in a dungeon, go on a pub crawl (did this often)....
Damn, so many many good days of doing practically nothing but ENJOYING the experience of doing nothing lol
All comes down to choices in my opinion, don't want to quest tonight? Go decorate your house, do some fishing, sail about on a boat, do a treasure hunt, go claim a bounty on a red pk'er...
How did it all come down to this endless grind?
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep. ~Navajo Proverb
if you get down to the basics of mmos they consist of basically watching 10 little blobs go to a different colour then you get a ding a number goes up then you get to fill another 10 little blobs and wait the ding. then after the number has reached a maximum your entire life either revolves around making another different 10 blobs and a ding. OR aquiring little purple items that slot into a grid and everyone goes oo oyou got purple x item
the problem ive found is that noone wants to have fun blowing up big mosters. People want large areas where we all congregate and not spread out in our own little instances.
The problem with the journey is that mmo companies think we all want to live in the same story, i dont like questing i see it worse than grinding the difference being is you have to find npcs with circles over their heads. To make the journey more fun dont put in little bubbles and dings that way people wont be just watching that and instead might actually enjoy the game.
I especially like the part about the players being part of the problem. I realized this a few years ago and immediately started working on my point of view. Now I play MMO's for the fun that they offer, without feeling rushed by the rest of the community. However, I'm a minority and I am very irritated with the MMO community to the point where they will likely lose a dedicated, skilled, and fun person to be around. While I may be okay taking my time, reading the quests, and actually enjoying the journey; while I may choose a class based off its concept and theme, and spec them according to my ideal representation of that class and theme; and while I may be able to make use of any class, spec, and have the skill to make the improbable work in group dungeons, I am in the minority. Since MMO's at its core is about grouping up with others at some point or another, being in the minority is actually harmful, which is actually driving me away from MMO's. Because I refuse to get into the rush to endgame, use the optimized class/spec, I fall behind on raids and may not even get invites to raids. However, since returning to WoW, I've been playing the game my way and so far I've impressed quite a few people with what they thought was improbably, such as 3-4 manning Gnomer as a Ret Pally, but healing, dealing from what they said, great dps, and tanking some, all at the same time.
So in summary, I feel players are more of the problem than MMO design, because MMO design actually has evolved if people would give an unbiased look at it. I think WoW is a fantastic game and representation of the genre, even though it has its own flaws, which I'd hope future MMO's would learn from and evolve into something even better. Yet, players are too hung up on speed, efficiency, and optimization, that they lose focus of why they even started playing MMO's to begin with. Not to mention, players put more emphasis on raids and pvp at end game, when you can play in some very nice dungeons and battlegrounds along the way. The difference is that in the lack of epic encounters you have at end game, you instead get to follow various story lines, spanning across many different zones, with different looks and feels to them.
I've learned that part of adjusting my view of MMO's is to except that they're not designed to last a person for years, they are designed like a game in any other genre, meaning the game does have a beginning and an end, even though the end is farther off than games in other genres. The more hardcore you play, the shorter the lifespan of the game is. The more casual you play, the longer the lifespan of the game, and if you're the type that likes to replay games with a different class or by taking a different path, the game may even provide enough content until each expansion releases, making the game actually last for years and still feel fresh.
Anyways, I got off to a rant, but this was a good article.
To add to your list...they should never remove content and items...they need to add. It should be a PERSISTENT WORLD.
I agree that a company shouldn't make content obsolete with updates and expansions, however, a persistent world? MMOs are persistent worlds, because the world continues to exist whether you're online or not. You never can save your character, can never reload the game, and appear in the gameworld where you last was when logging. That by any MMO company definition is a persistent world. But I know what you mean, you want a world that provides an alternate life, but through virtual means. While I used to want the same thing, and part of me does, it just isn't feasible. For one, games like that require way too much time and effort to be called a game. A better name for them would be "an alternate life," because you would need to spend your real life playing the game to obtain any real measure of success in any acceptable amount of time. A game that requires a person to forsake their real life to succeed in a game life only draws and promotes unhealthy individuals. Fortunately for our world, there are less of those people wanting to play games than there are responsible people who would like to play a game, but not at the expense of their real life, so it's not profitable catering to the no-lifers; instead, companies need to cater to people who have lives, thus a story driven game online, where you can solo or group is the common sense approach and the most profitable.
Do you realize that the use of the word everyone indicates you are implicating yourself, me, and the several billion people who live in this world to build your arguments around? All it takes is 1 person that doesn't conform to this idea you have of people to completely prove your argument wrong, making anything else you have to say questionable. So let me tell you about myself.
1. MMO content cannot be disposable in the way that once you complete a quest, it disappears from the world forever. The reason why is because only the hardcore would see the best content before it disappears forever. Everything costs money, and the developers could never keep up with the pace people consume content. Also, what would change for one person in a MMORPG, would likely have to change for everyone, making the MMO instable and probably unplayable, since everytime the several thousand players on a server completes a quest, the entire server would have to reload to show the changes that quest had on the world. Not to mention, the only real way to do this is to implement phasing, which GW, WoW, and LoTRO has done, but even it can't be done every single time a person completes a quest. It's not reasonable, realistic, and anyone suggesting it lacks common sense. Plus, WoW for example actually has some good quests. Take humans for example, you have the defias storyline that spans lvl 1-20, the black rock orc storyline that spans lvl 16-27ish and so on. Each zone has a storyline that you follow if you'd bother to actually read the quests, so your comment isn't 100% true either.
2. You said everyone has to have a bigger e-peen. Well, I could care less about my e-peen and actually even dislike the term. It shows a persons lack of intelligence to even give that word any weight in the English language. I do not need to compete with others online, nor do I have a strong desire to. I play MMO's to have fun with other people, not to have better stats, gear, spec, or kill ratios.
3. My first game was DAoC. I picked that game up, because I liked the sound of playing with other people, to swear loyalty and defend a realm, and that it all could last me for several years. I didn't care about the amount of kills I got, if I got the killing blow, or anything else. All I cared about was that my realm was free of invaders and that the people I played with were nice. People were nice, I had a great time leveling in groups, and RvR was fun for a while. Now I don't PvP at all, and for most of the reasons you stated. There just isn't anyway to make PvP balanced and dying every couple minutes and waiting for a respawn timer isn't fun either. But that's okay, because like you said, if I want to PvP, I can just play a FPS game on multiplayer mode.
4. You said everyone has to be the best. Well, I don't. In fact, all I care about is seeing everything the devs have to offer. I don't need to compare myself nor do I compare myself to others. I don't care if gear is blue, purple, gold or whatever, because it's just gear. I do like how some gear looks, and may shoot for it for purely aesthetic reasons, but I don't try and get gear to be better than another person or to show off. I do it, because I like to look at it. I don't choose a class based on how good they do in any particular part of a game, instead, I choose a class based on its concept and lore. I don't choose a spec based on what people say is the best or what's socially acceptable, instead, I choose a spec based on what I figure out to be the best spec for my playstyle.
What's nice is that how I am in-game is no different than how I am in life. I don't dress a certain way, talk a certain way, or act a certain way because that's what I'm told to do, or because it's what society expects of me. No, I am an independent person who dresses based on what I think looks good, I talk in a way that serves its purpose, which is communication, and I act in a way I find to be appropriate for me.
So really, your whole argument is flawed, because you made the mistake of acting like you knew what I want, do, or expect in a game.
I would also add that MMO's, unlike single player games and FPS, are about competition and comparing your character to the rest. By having levels and the best loot at the end its no surprise people want to rush it out to become a high profile figure in the game.
Pre-Cu solved this by having a skill system which did not reveal any "competence" about your character at all, and the economy was all player-driven. As such, people were more likely to enjoy the mid-way content without feeling inferior to other players as well as changing skills and professions altogether.
To add to your list...they should never remove content and items...they need to add. It should be a PERSISTENT WORLD.
I agree that a company shouldn't make content obsolete with updates and expansions, however, a persistent world? MMOs are persistent worlds, because the world continues to exist whether you're online or not. You never can save your character, can never reload the game, and appear in the gameworld where you last was when logging. That by any MMO company definition is a persistent world. But I know what you mean, you want a world that provides an alternate life, but through virtual means. While I used to want the same thing, and part of me does, it just isn't feasible. For one, games like that require way too much time and effort to be called a game. A better name for them would be "an alternate life," because you would need to spend your real life playing the game to obtain any real measure of success in any acceptable amount of time. A game that requires a person to forsake their real life to succeed in a game life only draws and promotes unhealthy individuals. Fortunately for our world, there are less of those people wanting to play games than there are responsible people who would like to play a game, but not at the expense of their real life, so it's not profitable catering to the no-lifers; instead, companies need to cater to people who have lives, thus a story driven game online, where you can solo or group is the common sense approach and the most profitable.
Simply being there when I log on is NOT a persistent world. By persistent world I mean not removing that of which was earned within the game...removing items or accomplishments or replacing said items or making items completely worthless. The game world must remain persistent. Change is fine...but do it by adding to the world not taking away.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
I have mixed feelings on this one. I could never get past level 20, because I found combat to be very bland as are the classes. Now I know many people share my opinion on this, but it's still just an opinion. So for me, while LoTRO had an awesome environement and well written quests, it just wasn't fun doing them due to the boringness of the classes and combat. It just didn't connect for me. Add to that the fact that people rush throught he book quests, because they've done them a hundred times ruins it. People would tell you to join a guild, but the fact about that is not even guilds can promise you that they will be available whenever you reach a book quest. I love how groups in DAoC were created from just a bunch of strangers online, not usually a group of guildies and I believe that's how it should be, because there are far more people available to play with on the server level, rather than the guild level.
I actually enjoy the journey in WOW, because I've played WC 3 and understand the lore. So when I read quests and get into the story lines that may reference things that a person knowing the lore would appreciate, I get into it. It's sad how the best story lines, which actually progress the meaningful storylines from the warcraft series exist in raid environments, because a person is at the mercy of other people to experience that part of the story, and MMO players are just so messed up now, that they'll only invite people who are the class, spec, and gear level they think would optimize their raid ability. So instead of inviting random people, making do and learning how to work with what you have, you have people scientifically building groups that will plow through raids.
Like everyone else, I agree 100% with Dana.
I've played EQ, SWG, DAoC, CoH/CoV, DDO.. I am sure I am forgetting a couple, but most important is my current game of Lord of the Rings Online.
In LOTRO, your character has an epic quest that parallels and intersects with the Fellowship's journey. These quests give you awesome items, too. There are a lot of things you can't do if you haven't progressed your epic quests appropriately. They have the right idea to go with the ideal MMO we all want.
Imagine playing an MMO that has no experience system. I think that's pretty much the only way to eliminate the level issue. As long as there are numbers, people will strive to reach the max ASAP. I personally don't know how I would handle such a game. Every MMO I've played over the past 13 years had a leveling and experience system. It wouldn't *feel* like it's supposed to.
Just because it's new and out of your comfort zone doesn't mean it will suck, however. I think it's 100% possible to develop an MMO with no levels and story-based progression along with the niceties like crafting and sparring. Maybe it could be made so there isn't even an option to attack someone who hasn't gotten as far as you to minimize disgruntled noobs.
There's definitely a market for this sort of MMO. I wonder if anyone will take a gamble.
I largely agree with the author. As has already been mentioned, the game the author is describing is Guild Wars. You stop levelling at 20 and instead, you push forward the story line to get to new areas of the world. I've had more fun playing Guild Wars than any other game.
Having said that, there is something I would like even better, which would be for the "storyline" to be about the decisions I make, instead of a railroad through the game-designer's story. I loved Guild Wars, but I never could bring myself to care much about the fate of Prince Rurik or whether Nightfall would come.
The term "end game" has been missused, abused and overrated. Developers need to provide more game content along the way to the end.
Post is spot on, too bad devlopers lack the intestinal fortitude to turn it's Back on teh Jeff Kaplan school of design.
Fun's not just an ill-defined term, but an overused one. There are countless activities that people spend their leisure time pursuing, but which don't really fit the "fun" category; learning a language, decorating, making clothes, painting watercolors, fishing, training for a marathon, building a model railway, gardening, learning to juggle... a milion human activities that, while you are doing them can seem like anything but "fun", yet you choose to do them all the same.
MMOs are more akin to this kind of activity than to pure "fun" experiences like going to a theme park or a blockbuster movie. You do things that aren't intrinsically "fun" and after completing them you have either a sense of achievement or a visible outcome or, best of all, both. In MMOs, the visible outcome is your character, which is a never-ending work-in-progress. Like a project you know you'll never quite complete, your character provides endless opportunity for tinkering and modifying. You secretly hope it will never be "ready".
At least, that's how I see MMOs. The OP seems more interested in the activity; the "game". I spend my time in MMOs for many reasons, but the primary one is the building of the character. I'm not really all that bothered with what I do with the character; building it is an end in itself.
As for storylines, that would be close to last in a list of things I come to MMOs for. Storylines are actively unwelcome, and the idea of being required to follow one in order to progress would have me progressing away from that MMO entirely. Stories are far beter told in a number of other media, where the reader or viewer isn't asked to perform tasks before being thrown each small gobbet of plot.
Bravo! This is a very inspiring post!
To each his own but countless hours of level/gear grinding is not my idea of entertainment. For me a good MMO should be more of an adventure leaving me with memories of things seen and done. However a well designed MMO can provide something for everyone. WoW comes close to this. Yes for all the harsh comments it recieves the game world has a lot going for ir.
While the basic idea is a nice one, its about as likely as world peace. Sure, it d be nice to have and everyone would be better off in theory, but its not going to happen due to human nature kicking in.
In MMOs, that human nature is the urge to get to the top of any given heap, or more importantly, the need for progress. No matter how you slice it, as long as you can outlevel, outplay, outskill or outwhatever content, it ll be done, and if you are dealing with the mainstream audience, it ll be done really quick and efficiently after a while.
The developers are, by and large, just accommodating this behaviour, and trying to channel it into something they can use to make a game work. For everyone I know that likes Guild Wars for the fact that, esp. in Factions and Nightfall, the levelling stops after 1/3 of the game, and the story goes on, I know at least one person who dislikes exactly that fact, stating that they dont feel like their character is advancing much, and that storyline is just an excuse for giving out xp.
The journey needs to be a minimum of fun, yeah. But the mainstream audience, which is what you have to market for most of the time, does not feel happy if they see people ahead of them, and will strive to speed up the journey anyway.
Even the most laid back and oldschool communities, like in Vanguard, quickly found and emphasized quest hubs that were crap, but gave lots of exp in a short amount of time.
You cannot design counter the drive of the players. You can nudge here and there, try to teach different things, but the overwhelming influence is the need to achieve, to be fast, efficient, get to the goal. Its ingrained in our society, and a game will pay dearly if it tries to get away from that in the current market.
Well, it seems like Bioware is working on this. And I agree, problem is in GW you can never really affect the story.
And I actually laughted when Rurik bought the farm, he was such a moron...
I agree that part of this is the fault of the players. I played EQ1 like a level maniac, but when i realized it would take a year to hit 50 (at the rate i played), i started again with no intention to even hit 40. It was much more fun the second time around because i wasn't playing with a levels in mind.
I've learned my lesson, i get my fun at the lower levels, ignore the upper levels. A fireball is a fireball whether its 100 damage or 2. Play while its fun, then get out. No grinding for me.
But the problem for game developers, what is to keep me playing. If its the same 20 missions no matter what class/race i play, then we have a problem. They have to give you 30 ways through the lower levels that are different enough. Not completely different, but different enough to make it interesting. The game has to be REPLAYABLE. That will keep the money coming in while keeping it fun. Not pushing the max level to 70 or 80.
A good example is EQ. EQ at least had 10 different races and 5 different classes that all played different. Each race played different as did the class. That was 50 ways to start off. And they didn't all lead to the same main story line throughout. You weren't put on rails, it was more like a sandbox.
Excellent work and spot on!
Enjoy the journey!! WHich is how I enjoy LOTRO, I can relate to the world, I don't worry about levels, I go for silly titles.
I quit WoW at lvl 13, cause leveling is the pits
Well for once i have to say a writer or anyone for that matter actually sees the genre as i do.The mad dash to end game/levels and the perception that means you are a better player is ridiculous,but that is what the players have become,as stated..."Broken players".
One thing i am not so sure on is the quality quests and players crying about them.I have yet to see these quality quests in most games and i have not seen much in the way of complaining about quality quests. I know for a fact i would not complain about quality quests.For myself any game that utilizes a lot of effort into a massive crafting/questing game would be on my good list,but it has to be done well>>quality >quantity.
I have seen a decent quest design done in EQ2 and EQ using the idea of a quest line.WHat i liked about doing EQ2 was killing mobs,you could get a quest or spawn a boss and get decent rewards,i liked that idea alot.
I wish the OP came up with some ideas on how to make the gaming experience fun instead of a speed dash to end level.I offered my ideas awhile ago,one was utilizing the NPC's a LOT more including voice overs and NPC's joining in battles or traveling alongside players.NPC's are suppose to be the main part of the world,and we have yet to see any developer utilize them to it's fullest extent.I have seen small bits and pieces but not much at all.
We could also have more puzzles and uique ideas involved in boss killing rather than just warping through a portal or gaining access.You could have different locks and puzzles and NPC's and mobs every day to make the experience different.This is something else we have yet to see from ANY game....have multiple spawns for the same nodes ,including NPC's or mobs.How about the FFXI ideas like Besieged or Campaign battles?how about a quest or idea like FFXI where you start naked and have to work your way through the zone to gain back your weapons and armour.Perhaps a knockout system ,where by 8 players enter a zone and only one can enter the final battle to fight the boss,so it brings into play the PVP aspect that so many love.You could also do it with groups of 6 or 5 or 4.So again this offers more than just warping to a zone and fight the boss utilizing said methods attained form the internet.That gets old and boring as does leveling.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Unfortunantly, that would not work. In a single player RPG the player is the sole focus of the game. Everything revolves around him and he is a walking god among men. He can feel powerful because nothing and no one can challenge him.
Now, add in 5000 other players. Each one of them is going to expect that feeling of power, and they are going to measure it as compared to the other players. Now you have balance issues, overpowered abilities, underpowered abilities. Worse, each players view of where their characters abilities are in relation to everyone elses characters is going to be skewed in their own favor.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I am playing EQ2 these days, on a level locked Mystic. As I progress through each area, I turn off my xp until I have done the majority of the quests and fully explored all the zones.
No race to end game, no outleveling content before I am done with it, no cares if anyone else happens to be higher level then me.
Now, if only more people would slow down and enjoy the journey.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I am playing EQ2 these days, on a level locked Mystic. As I progress through each area, I turn off my xp until I have done the majority of the quests and fully explored all the zones.
No race to end game, no outleveling content before I am done with it, no cares if anyone else happens to be higher level then me.
Now, if only more people would slow down and enjoy the journey.
I'm also playing some alts in EQ2 currently with xp off for the same reasons (even thinking about re-rolling my old main for the same reasons). The article is good and I agree completely. I've personally always hated the whole level/class based model that the vast majority of MMO's slavishly follow. I've always hated the whole concept of holy "end-game" (I usually get bored with a game before I get to it anyway). I've never been at all a fan of PvP, but I must say the skill based open sand-box world that Mortal online is at least talking about (no idea if they'll actually pull it off) does sound appealing.
I am playing EQ2 these days, on a level locked Mystic. As I progress through each area, I turn off my xp until I have done the majority of the quests and fully explored all the zones.
No race to end game, no outleveling content before I am done with it, no cares if anyone else happens to be higher level then me.
Now, if only more people would slow down and enjoy the journey.
You know, I can't stand SOE much, but I have to hand it to them for creating such a large world, with so many classes, and more quests than WoW could hope to have. It's one reason I've thought of playing EQ2. I've only ever made it to around lvl 20ish and I just couldn't get into the game. I play WoW right now, and what has me sucked into the game is the lore and story behind it. I love the story of the orcs against humans, because neither are completely innocent or at fault for what went on. I love the story of the elves, their eternal life being lost, of the scourge, the former liche king, and Arthas. I love the lore behind the Paladins and their coronation, mages, and druids with Emerald Dream. It's all such a captivating tale with a lot of sorrow when the beautiful is destroyed, the brave being forsaken, and hero's becoming villians through tough, yet unavoidable choices. I just don't get that lore or story with EQ2.