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Mmorpgs reward you by punishment?
oskironmaide
Member Posts: 336
I am doing my game design master at full sail... Today (an exciting day with new ffXIV on the horizon)... we discussed on class how mmorpgs reward by punishing you... grinding and how annoying it can become for some people, specially the mature audiences that dont have all the free time young audiences do (work, wife, kids, bills, life.. and all that bs)
This just made me think about the next mmo i will be playing "Aion", and since the game is from the east.. i can already expect some serious mindless grinding.. 
and it is becoming a big turn off for me right now.
Shouldnt mmorpgs reward your skills? not how long you can sit in front of a computer screen smashing buttons? Some mmorpgs do, others dont.
I would love to read what other people around here think about the subject.
Thank you...
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
Comments
Personally, I don't like the grind, but when a game has a good society around it, it's not necessary to grind all the time.
The grinding is just in the game to promote addictive behavior and to keep player retention. Keeping a player paying each month is a priority.
There's many "secret" seminaries and discussions big game designers have to study the addictive elements and incorporate them in their game. A former developer, working for such companies came forward saying they have existed since 2002, in a documentary I saw today.
LMAO!! MMOcrack anyone?
Off corse, the modern mmorpg bussiness model wants the players to play as much as they possibly can. There are addictive elements on design that can be used but this doesnt mean they are good design elements. When designing games is important to make games above everything FUN.. if the game is fun, it can become addiciting too dont you all think?.
Im not a wow fanboy altough i played wow till max level, i can say this is part of the game success, how little grinding there is in comparision to other Mmorpgs out there, and damm.. ok now i got sidetracked, but this can even go into the cultural differences between the east and the west players.. we dont enjoy grinding as much as the east does, this goes back to culture and other factors. And i am sure it has been disccussed around here alot
Keep the ideas comming, i need them.
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
WoW has the biggest grind in ny p2p mmo. You might be insane.
Well, I do believe that you can make a MMO fun without much grinding.
The problem is kinda that grinding is easier for the devs than trying to make all parts of the game fun.
Take crafting. It is usually one of the worst grinds in the game. But crafting should really be about designing stuff, not making 20 identical swords that are worthless to get to the next level. I don't mind spending 20 min designing an armor in a way resembling to how I create my character, and people who do mind can buy one that already looks good or use a drop.
As for quests, if you use them you shouldnt have any "go kill X mobs", that is boring and gives me nothing, if I wanted to grind I surely don't need a quest to tell me that. Quest should be big epic lines, you know, slay the dragon and save the princess or similar. I rather have a lot fewer quests that feels truly heroic then being an errand boy.
Player and Guildhousing could also be cooler. Why cant an evil guild design their own dungeon (remember Dungeon keeper?), rent in mobs and when you have sieges you will try to outsmart the builders? Housing should be like in the Sims. You should also be able to build a store or inn.
Farming resources should be cut down quite a bit, usually when someone makes a belt they buy the leater from a farmer, and they buy metal from a mine. No one goes around and collect the iron for a sword alone. Herbs are one thing, and special stuff like a demon horn that you can make into a spear is one thing but you shouldnt have to farm 10 demons or more to get one.
I just wish the devs gave all the parts in the game some thought and considered if they were fun, and if not how to make them funnier. It is really that simple. they might not get all parts good but they would get some. Right now they use the same formula for almost every game and mindless grinding is a big part of that formula.
No, it don't. Try Lineage 2. But it do have a big grind, just not the biggest.
Dungeon Keeper!!! i love that game, pretty cool.
I agree with you, but things are changing hopefully for the best. I think we "the customers" that in the end drive this games to the point they are by playing them 24x7 need to get the word out there that we dont enjoy grinding and things might change.
The problem is people that keep playing trough the grind, because that sends the message that the customers are brainless people that love to grind.
I come home to play games and have fun! not to keep working
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
No, it don't. Try Lineage 2. But it do have a big grind, just not the biggest.
i was going to say the same haha.
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
Problem is that all games do have a grind today, even Guildwars to some smaller point. So either you can't play at all or you have to accept it. But if one or a few games showed up with a lot less grinding then the grind games would have to fix the issue also or die, but right now the companies can continue with what they are doing.
I hope Bioware will have the grinding cut down a lot, their singlr player RPGs didn't have much at least.
I think it's less effective than using time-reward elements, it's also a lot cheaper to just make content which you grind through at a slow pace. (not a fan of this)
There will be a designer who is going to get the money to make an MMO one day, which has eleminated a lot of the grind, it just won't be the likes of Blizzard, SoE or NCsoft who will make it. They are happy with games which make you grind, it's cheap, keeps players playing and it's easy to make content for.
Big companies want to see cash and a return on investment, adding grinding to a game makes sure players play it for extensive periods of time, but it doesn't mean no one is ready to chage that, they just aren't getting the budget to do it currently. But it will happen.
Grind is such a misused word.
Even in sports you have to practice something repetitively to get used to it. Footwork in badminton, just dance around the court for a few weeks before I am even handed a racket, that is when I was eight years old. So do you call that a grind. When I was in the school band, we practice 2 hours everyday, the same practice tunes. Is that grinding? Even at work, half of the work are repetitions of almost the same nature, or the few regular combination/mix. Is that grinding?
Now take the most mundane grind in an MMO, pulling a camp of mobs. There are times you overpull, there are time you got a very unfortunate add spawned from nowhere, there are times the healer went disconnected after a pull. Yes we grind, we do a lot in everquest, but still there are incidents that make one particular pull a big fight or a big wipe.
Nowadays, many games hide the grind elements well. During the route to another "NPC", as part of a delivery quest, you run across random mobs you need to clear way thru, you kill them, loot them, skin them. You run pass mineral ore, herbs you need to clear way to, kill, skin as usual. Before you realise it, you have finished a quest, killed a few, looted some ore/herb, skinned a few. That goes to skinning level up, mining level up, herbing level up, general xp and hence character level up. That also provides mats for crafting, as you can now craft a few leather pieces, or use the herb/minerals for whatever craft you see fit.
Is that grinding? Your view my view.
I can only say, so long as I enjoy it, I hardly need to ask this question: "is this a grind"? Heck during the EQ1 days or SWG, we do not feel that much about grinding, even tho it is clearly horrible grinds. Instead we were busy LFG, running to the dungeon zone, zone in and fight all the way to the camp, and possibly wipe and rinse. Is it grind? Does it matter? If the game is fun, does it matter?
Oh jeesh. Obviously you have never really grasped what people mean with the word "grind".
The analogies you mention are enjoyable activities and are not forced upon you.
"Grind" is usually used when talking about a repetitious action in MMO which you don't enjoy, which is forced on you, which is repetitious and is a key to progression.
Grind can't really be "misused" either since it's MMO lingo and the official meaning of grinding relates to griding items between each other, like wheat and windmill stones.
Well, the problem is that reality and gaming isn't the same thing. That deliver quest that you are talking about for one thing, do that really sounds like something a hero would be doing?
Heroes should do grand things, not following orders from some git that want you to fetch some crap. In real life, learning to use a sword takes a lot of practice but have you ever played those games where you spend hours beating training dolls? Boring.
Doing the same thing over and over is not really fun to me. And I rather do one well written and complicated quest (like the things you read about in books).
Do you think Conan, Aragon or Rand get the quest to kill 25 bears or deliver a message to a guy in the other part of town? I think not. Do they stop and prospect metal when they are doing something else?
I didn't play EQ1 but I played Meridian 59 and Lineage and the grind bored me already then. MMO do have fun parts that is enough for me to play them but I surely could have a lot better time.
I bet you a great majority of players stopped playing EQ because the grind consumed their life. I stopped playing because in EQ you only got as far or can be as good as time permits you.
Oh jeesh. Obviously you have never really grasped what people mean with the word "grind".
The analogies you mention are enjoyable activities and are not forced upon you.
"Grind" is usually used when talking about a repetitious action in MMO which you don't enjoy, which is forced on you, which is repetitious and is a key to progression.
Grind can't really be "misused" either since it's MMO lingo and the official meaning of grinding relates to griding items between each other, like wheat and windmill stones.
Err, read the other half of the quoted.
In evercamp, err everquest, you spend your lifetime camping the few same bosses. Its grind to a horror, and yet somehow, in those days, we still find fun doing it, Maybe I was too stupid in those days.
But yes, what you said is pretty true. Part of the burden lies in the imagination and creative power of the player. The example I quoted comes from WoW, and with a game offering that much variety, a player willing to exercise imagination can always find some combo of activities that keeps a reasonable level of enjoyment.
As for what grind means, oh well no argument. I just want to point out that there are still many ppl who keeps saying WoW is a huge grind, on the other hand, I find it possible to formulate some pretty varied journeys in that silly little game.
sounds like manipulation.
Well, the problem is that reality and gaming isn't the same thing. That deliver quest that you are talking about for one thing, do that really sounds like something a hero would be doing?
Heroes should do grand things, not following orders from some git that want you to fetch some crap. In real life, learning to use a sword takes a lot of practice but have you ever played those games where you spend hours beating training dolls? Boring.
Doing the same thing over and over is not really fun to me. And I rather do one well written and complicated quest (like the things you read about in books).
Do you think Conan, Aragon or Rand get the quest to kill 25 bears or deliver a message to a guy in the other part of town? I think not. Do they stop and prospect metal when they are doing something else?
I didn't play EQ1 but I played Meridian 59 and Lineage and the grind bored me already then. MMO do have fun parts that is enough for me to play them but I surely could have a lot better time.
First I do not play a game b/c I want to be a hero. I never want to be a hero, not at work, not after work. I want peace and retreat.
Second, even the heros start somewhere. Napolean was briefly a semi prisoner after his little family lost the corsica or whatever spelt island to the french empire. Oda Nobunaga almost got killed and barely survived a few family coups before he managed to get so close to unifying Japan in the warlord era. So if you can exercise some imagination, heros might do some trash quest during their off hours :P punt intended.
After all we have 12m WoW players, 3.5m Aion players ... and so on, and only a handful heros every decade. I opt out trying to be a hero
punt intended again. I just want to do whatever I damn pleased during the couple hours online every week, and forget about it the moment I log out.
EQ1 is a horrible grind, but Lineage is far far worse. Is it boring, well in those day I find it acceptable. Looking back now, oh no, its horrible. Maybe I grew up, maybe I grew old, maybe I am just not much of myself any more after so many incidents in the past decade of my life.
At first every MMO seems enjoyable, EQ was magical at first.
But then at some point you realise that progression is slower and slower, that you need groups to progress, that you need raids for some items. That now you don't just need levels, but AA and good gear and friends and a guild and play with your guild at certain intervals to progress..you are forced to keep up and forced to do actions which you do not enjoy.
Which is why I mostly don't agree with any analogy describing MMO grind, it's fairly unique since the closest thing I can compare it with is to someone suffering from compulsive behavior disorder, which sounds extreme, but it's quite comparable.
I'm fairly negative regarding MMO lately but then I would call myself objective instead, because the current trend of making you reward for you time doesn't put gameplay first, isn't in the interest of gameplay, it's just there to keep you paying monthly. Maybe F2P games and consoles will shake up the old EQ and Blizzard "bastions", it's about time.
I bet you a great majority of players stopped playing EQ because the grind consumed their life. I stopped playing because in EQ you only got as far or can be as good as time permits you.
I don't know who quitted EQ1 when or why. Seriously I dun care, the moment I ended sub, I moved on. I was unguilded in EQ1 for all eternality.
I left EQ1 because I found SWG and DAoC. I never looked back since.
i had a huge reply ready for this but upon reflection, i decided to not post it after all.
ill just leave it at, im not a huge fan of full sail, digipen, or the art institute's game design courses.
good luck with school though
Games i'm playing right now...
"In short, I thought NGE was a very bad idea" - Raph Koster talking about NGE on his blog at raphkoster.com
MMO’s have lost some of their magic, we won’t regain that. Do you watch films today with the same wonder you did as a child? But we can still appreciate a films artistry, a fine storyline and great acting. Unfortunately these are not the standards modern MMO’s are being designed to, the wonder has gone and nothing has replaced it.
Well, actually sometimes a movie comes out that is just great.
But the type you seen already a lot of times are just boring, you know: 100 police cars hunt the villain but in the end he end up on top of a tall building fighting the hero in hand to hand.
The reason stuff hets boring is not just that you gets older, it is because you already seen and done the stuff so many times. And all MMOs have been very close to EQ since the last 10 years and that in itself is boring.
We need new ways to make the games more fun, the same old thing with better graphics and a slightly different world just ain't enough anymore.
My hope is that new companies are getting into the genre now, like the pen and paper RPG manufacturer White wolf (who now is merged with CCP) and the classic RPG company Bioware. They might be able to renew the genre and give us the magic back. What Half-life and its mods did to FPS.
"Reward you by punishment" isn't a good way of looking at the problem.
The real questions for any genre are,
1. Are my game's activities fun?
2. Are my game's activities fun for as long as I ask players to perform them?
3. How is gameplay varied?
4. What (if any) new activities are introduced? When are they introduced?
Players only label it "grind" when they feel the gameplay pattern hasn't changed sufficiently for a certain length of time.
From the 2-8 hour mark of Lineage 2 my character fought every mob the exact same way. Repetitively cast damage spells, loot, damage spells, loot, damage spells, loot, ad infinitum. 6 hours with no gameplay pattern variation. No new abilities. The pattern wasn't interesting to begin with (damage/loot/damage/loot). Different enemies were carbon-copies. 6 hours of identical gameplay.
WOW isn't an ideal contrast, because it's grindy, but even a grindy game makes Lineage 2 look silly. The base pattern still isn't very interesting (damage/loot/damage/loot), but I quickly learn new abilities which vary this pattern. Later I learn abilities which vary the pattern further since they key off of random parts of combat (such as Overpower only being available after an attack is Dodged.) Enemies have significantly better variance than Lineage 2 (though the variance is still pretty low.) Also, the rate at which I go back to town to do quests is much higher (and as boring as 'right-click on NPC' is as an activity, it at least varies what would otherwise be a very long grind-fest on mobs.)
So it might've been more helpful if your teacher covered:
Basically it's a balance between variance, and not overdoing it. The best part is, every player will have their own opinion (especially on the 3rd question.) In fact, Bethesda basically makes a wealthy living ignoring my 3rd suggestion entirely and just spamming quick activities at the player (so even though Fallout 3's combat, lockpicking, hacking, etc, are pretty shallow individually, they add up with the superb Quest structure and Dialog to craft a relatively fun game.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Until these games become more interactive they will always hae the element of grind, unless the game play itself removes the feeling of grind.
For example. In the game Planetside as you fight and kill enemy opponents you gain battle eperience. This BE goes toward gaining battle ranks. The higher you get in BR the more skills you can unlock and you gain access to better weapons and what not. Since there is no need for AI in MOB's like you find in games like WoW, the repetative type game play dissapears. You don't just spam the same keys repeatedly doing the same thing over and over again for a MOB. Why? Because in Planetside the enemy you are fighting is human controlled and fighting against a human opponent that can think is much more challenging and varied.
I never felt like I was grinding in Planetside ever. I loved that game and played it religiously for 3.5+ years. I cannot say that for most of the other games I have played.
Mount and Blade is a single player game that is twitch based combat - very FPS like. It too never seems like a grind because no two battles are the same. In WoW when I fight a MOB and then another the battle is always the same. Click 1, click 2, click 3. Click 1, click 2, click 3. Ugh!!!! It is a boring clickfest. I do not feel like I am actually doing anything. There is no skill envolved.
That is why I am a huge proponent of FPS type game play to be ported to MMORPG's. It will allow for players to have more control over their character and environment and help aliviate the grind!