MMORGP same old, same ‘ol?

seabeast

Hail shipmates,

Been reading posts from a lot of you all about the concept of a game being a clone of game (fill in the blank). I played many MMORPG’s and I am trying to figure out what exactly would make an MMORPG game different. For example, one of the most popular complaints I have seen is the questing problem where quest giver sends you off to kill X amount of Y’s and return. I do admit that I see these type quests in tutorials and beginning of games but figured that was to help the player learn the mechanics. In most every game I have played this changes to include lore and exploration.

Another is the graphics, regardless of how advanced and different the scenery of said game, it seems as if someone comes on and says, “it’s a graphic XXX game clone.” If the tree branches blows in the wind in game X and not Y, is this not a change? Could be me but an example would help.

Finally, the overall game objectives are often mentioned, that is, one or more factions or sides battle it out for superiority. How would this be changed other than adding another bad guy who is against the other two, etc? Numerous games have multiply sides so this would only make a game XXX clone if it were accomplished again.

I guess what I am asking is how or/and what would be included in a game to make it…different? I mean graphics continue to get better, Lore grows to new and different heights and quests certainly have been advanced in most new games I have played. Flame me if you must but, at least tell me what could make an MMORPG…different?

V/R,

SEABEAST

 

Amaranthar

To make a game "different", you have to actualy change the game play. How does another faction or deeper lore matter if the game play is still the same?

 

Here's the major problem. The big guys with the money to make these MMORPGs all want to stick to the tried and true level grind.

Problem: that dictates the same kind of game play...level to the next zone, level to the next set of gear, level to new abilities that blow you away...then do it again...then do it again...then do it yet again...now realize that this is it and everything that came before is useless now, and thyen look at doing it again and again. Boredom.

Solution: Change the game play away from the central structure of level grinding. Change it to game play that's rewarding, yet diverse.

Add: Real exploration that includes discoveries that matter. Add rewards that don't lose their value. Add social elements that aren't dictated by levels, city building and society building that matters to individual players as well as the whole. Add trade skills that aren't yet another form of level grind, trades that matter from bottom to top, trades that have real value. Add lore that matters in the consequences of player actions, ancient enemies that you must overcome, but won't die quietly, and mysteries behind and all about the lore. Add interactivity with the game world and the things in it, so that players can always check things out and secrets can be hidden among the interactivity, such as secret rooms, levers that unlock things, ancient vaults that require secrets to be discovered to open them.

To me, in a nut shell, what we need is a better world simulation with loads of fantasy elements added to it. Not total "realism", but realism in the simulation as a basis to build on. Mysteries hidden in the simulation, powers and riches to be discovered.

I'm tired of playing to level. I want to play to discover, build, and meet challenges.

bleyzwun

I usually don't scream clone.  The only game that really seems close to a clone of WoW is RoM.  As for MMOs being pretty much the same, I can agree on that.  The trend seems to be to use quests to help gain exp.  I don't mind this but find quests boring as hell.  I've said it before, I'll say it again, there is noway around kill, delivery, and escort quests. 

The only way to make these quests more fun is to actually increase MOB AI instead of increasing their stats to make them tougher.  The only place in the world you should truly feel safe is cities and towns.  You should be very scared of certain monsters.  I don't want to be in a field of dragons singing la di da.  If I see ONE dragon, or even a bear or wolf, I should be like OH SHIT.  

All quests need to have voice overs.  It would be nice if all quests had cut scenes, but if anything all major quests NEED cut scenes.  All quests should feel like an adventure, not some mundane task you have to do to get exp.

Combat needs to be more engaging and fluid.  You should have to manually block and dodge, and yes even block magic (like Street Fighter, you can block Haduken, Sonic Boom etc).  I would like to see a hybrid of the current MMO hotbars mixed with combo attacks, with less to no waiting for cooldowns (if anybody has played Naruto for gamecube, I feel this type of combo system would fit well in a MMO). 

I would like to see more interaction with the environment.  I'm not talking about mining that ore, or picking up some herbs.  I'm talking about climbing up trees and walls.  I'm talking about bouncing from wall to wall to get to a rooftop.  Blowing up, or breaking down walls (and I don't mean the door disapears, I mean walls, doors, windows, etc shatter and you see it). 

Another thing I would like to see is the removal of levels.  Either that, or make levels ALMOST meaningless.  I wouldn't mind if levels unlocked new attacks or abilites, but they shouldn't increase your stats.  They shouldn't seperate you from friends who level slowly.  Gear goes hand in hand with levels and even the word grind.  I would like to see the removal of gear for power.  Gear should only be cosmetic.  There should still be drops, but they should be something really cool, but also something you can do without.  Removing gear as the main incentive to play the game will also force developers to focus on the actual gameplay. 

Dungeons should also be available to everybody, and should be fun for everybody.  Gear ruins the experience for a lot of players.  When the sole purpose of doing a dungeon run is to get gear, people get yelled at, become discouraged, and decide they don't like grouping up.  The others don't want to group with PUGs.  This IMO is a problem.  EVERYONE should have fun.  We're playing a game, afterall.

bleyzwun

Amar, you make some good points about crafting too.  I've thought about this as well.  It would be nice (maybe a little too ambitious) if crafters could actually make gear look the way they want.  I always thought it would be cool if there was a mini/simplistic version of photoshop in game for gear crafters.  I also thought it would be cool if you could make paintings (maybe scan your art, or somehow make something in game).  Another thing I thought of because I also dance, is if you could create your own dance steps in game, and create scrolls/books to teach people your steps. 

I've tried Second Life (which I think sucks) and think it's cool how you can do all these things, but it's way too complicated for the average person to create. 

Amaranthar

Originally posted by bleyzwun


Amar, you make some good points about crafting too.  I've thought about this as well.  It would be nice (maybe a little too ambitious) if crafters could actually make gear look the way they want.  I always thought it would be cool if there was a mini/simplistic version of photoshop in game for gear crafters.  I also thought it would be cool if you could make paintings (maybe scan your art, or somehow make something in game).  Another thing I thought of because I also dance, is if you could create your own dance steps in game, and create scrolls/books to teach people your steps. 
I've tried Second Life (which I think sucks) and think it's cool how you can do all these things, but it's way too complicated for the average person to create. 

 

Bleyzwun, I agree but want to add one caveat. There needs to be restrictions to maintain the games "feel". SL is a classic example of people throwing in whatever they want. Dance steps are a good example in that the player would be limited to the possible actions of the avatar. So too, gear should be limited in various shapes and colors, but open to the variables presented. What I would be concerned with is lag, in such a case. A truly interactive world would include "items on the ground" that players can pick up and drop, at least in certain areas like player houses, dungeons, caves, on wagon and ships, etc. So the numbers of variable may be important to limit.

I've always wanted player paintings. This is possible right now if you have to "look" at the painting and see it in a window. Something like this could be abused, of course. But some system, however it would be done, would add much to the game world regardless of the problems. Image players making their own quest mysteries using paintings as clues! So too, they should be able to write books and scrolls, and drp them into the world to enhance their quest/mystery.

Palebane

You could make it so that whatever happens in the game happens to you in real life. How's that for a death penalty?

 

I think RPGs have pretty much reached their limit of what they are capable of concerning quests and combat. If you change these too much, then you don't have an RPG anymore. There are plenty of people arguing that there should be no levels, but that also (to me) is what makes and RPG and RPG. There are so many jaded players out there that are offering very poor suggestions for fixing something that is not broken. The games are not the problem in my opinion, its the players who lose focus of the intent and capability of a video game. They are there to enjoy and to help excercise creativity and imagination. If developers tried to pump imagination into an RPG for players, then there is no point to playing it.  You might as well just watch a movie.

retrospectic

Originally posted by seabeast


Hail shipmates,

Been reading posts from a lot of you all about the concept of a game being a clone of game (fill in the blank). I played many MMORPG’s and I am trying to figure out what exactly would make an MMORPG game different. For example, one of the most popular complaints I have seen is the questing problem where quest giver sends you off to kill X amount of Y’s and return. I do admit that I see these type quests in tutorials and beginning of games but figured that was to help the player learn the mechanics. In most every game I have played this changes to include lore and exploration.
As far as quests go, I think they are probably one of the harder things to author in an MMORPG.  Most of these quests have to satisfy a variety of requirements.  Can they be done at any time?  Can they be completed by X amount of players in Y time in order to give X benefit?  As the years go by, will this quest still make sense, be rewarding, and work?
I agree that the "kill quest", "collection quest", and "courier quest" systems are all quite played out.  I am not sure how innovation would work in persistent world.  I think real innovation could be made if someone figures out how to code quests that feel more worthwhile for the experience/reward they offer, yet are unique or at least varied based on character progression or time the game has been running.


Another is the graphics, regardless of how advanced and different the scenery of said game, it seems as if someone comes on and says, “it’s a graphic XXX game clone.” If the tree branches blows in the wind in game X and not Y, is this not a change? Could be me but an example would help.
The idea of having innovative and unique graphics is also a tricky situation.  I think this becomes increasingly difficult when multiple games come from the same genre.  It is hard to make elves or orcs look unique.  Players are always going to compare the same races in multiple games.  Personally, I think it is fairly pointless to call similar graphics a "clone" of older games.  The fantasy genre, for example, rests upon some foundations that many games adhere to.  This helps sell games as much as it may appear to simply be a different version of the same thing you've played before.
As far as real innovation in this department.  I think games need to flesh out different genres of MMORPG, but still remain within some foundational guidelines.  Something like cyberpunk, for example, could boast its own races without any real limitations.


Finally, the overall game objectives are often mentioned, that is, one or more factions or sides battle it out for superiority. How would this be changed other than adding another bad guy who is against the other two, etc? Numerous games have multiply sides so this would only make a game XXX clone if it were accomplished again.

I guess what I am asking is how or/and what would be included in a game to make it…different? I mean graphics continue to get better, Lore grows to new and different heights and quests certainly have been advanced in most new games I have played. Flame me if you must but, at least tell me what could make an MMORPG…different?

V/R,

SEABEAST
I think the next innovation is going to be our involvement with the game as players.  Right now most MMORPGs are completely controlled by the company.  Although we complete quests and defeat monsters, they are mostly scripted events that never change.  Even in PvP we are limited to the abilities and statistics of our characters and only our reflexes and knowledge keep us in competition.  Perhaps down the road this will change, we may be able to impact the world we play in directly and make real lasting changes to characters themselves.

 

 

Amaranthar

Originally posted by Palebane


You could make it so that whatever happens in the game happens to you in real life. How's that for a death penalty?
 
I think RPGs have pretty much reached their limit of what they are capable of concerning quests and combat. If you change these too much, then you don't have an RPG anymore. There are plenty of people arguing that there should be no levels, but that also (to me) is what makes and RPG and RPG. There are so many jaded players out there that are offering very poor suggestions for fixing something that is not broken. The games are not the problem in my opinion, its the players who lose focus of the intent and capability of a video game. They are there to enjoy and to help excercise creativity and imagination. If developers tried to pump imagination into an RPG for players, then there is no point to playing it.  You might as well just watch a movie.

 

Wow. I don't agree with that at all. I don't mean any offense, but I think you are stuck inside that neat little box that developers have gift wrapped for gamers so that they can sell us their games.

The thing is, games should open up imagination of the players. The current styles rerstrict it to tight little bundles on purpose. The developers don't want problems they can't see coming due to their own single-player-game-short-sightedness. The modern day developers come from that single player game genre. They pretty much suck at "massive". And talk about watching a movie, playing these current games are no different. You take the quests they give you, and have no other viable options, and you'll like it. You don't get any choices in the matter.