It's a complex matter, but the sum of it is of course piracy is bad, hurts our economy and wastes taxpayer dollars and minutes in congress.
There's quite a lot of sects though and they behave and respond differently to piracy.
Software developers/vendors for example have a history of trying new ways to combat and lower piracy rates, and for the most part have succeeded since software is pirated here in the US less anywhere else in the world (still at about 20% or so; a lot less than 80%+ in China). With content based around data portability (feeds and APIs serving up info), and the advent of cloud computing and everything that it means, I suspect software vendors will continue to lower piracy all on their own and support a more free and open internet.
Hollywood and the music industry though? Different story. They constantly pursue legislation to protect IPs. From current litigation that's looking to prevent RealNetworks from releasing RealDVD to legislation passed under the noise of the bailout and campaign coverage last year that creates an Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator in government that has the power to reach across many different departments to intervene in all matters of IP protection.
The current trends of anti-piracy pursuits are bleeding into our government. It's not paranoia so much as it's a reality. Right now there's a bunch of private companies that do things like sniff peer-to-peer networks and report offenders to internet providers. What happens when under new law, it becomes the DOJ's job to go on the offensive, find and prosecute pirates on peer-to-peer networks? They'd actually be doing justice by doing so, but in the process it's a waste of taxpayer money and waste of time in government.
Furthermore there's too much collateral damage; like the above example of what RealNetwork's is going through. Useful technology can and will be barred by courts if its deemed to be useable for piracy. Again in some sects of IP-driven business the private companies themselves solve their problems; Amazon's Kindle or Nintendo's DSi, but again there's heavy-handed entites out there that want the government to intervene and are seeing no resistance in getting legislation passed.
Their fuel is the rampant piracy going on. It's real, and the losses of money are real. I work in software and I feel my industry will come out fine, but the internet is shared and organizations like the RIAA don't give a crap about combating piracy any other way other than involving the government.
So what will happen? Well we're going to have more government control over the internet in pursuit of protecting copyrights and intellectual property. Ideally all of the ruckus will settle with big public trackers on peer-to-peer networks being brought down akin to what happened to The Pirate Bay overseas, and it doesn't bleed over into individual types of technology being dictated which I'm concerned about the most.
As soon as all 99.9% of musicians are paying royalties to Bach and Beethoven, I'll consider their claims of "piracy" and hypocrtical claims of IP more seriously.
As soon as all 99.9% of musicians are paying royalties to Bach and Beethoven, I'll consider their claims of "piracy" and hypocrtical claims of IP more seriously.
A little something to help you learn how the system works.... www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Public_domain you may call that unfair but they gave the reasons for how it works right now.. could it change in the future aye just as it has changed in the past.
Eventually movies, music, AND videogames will all be complete shit thanks to you selfish children that support piracy.
I wonder though, is the rampant piracy a result of the decline in quality of movies, music, and videogames or is the decline due to piracy? I tend to lean towards the former rather than the latter.
The recording industry might be dead due to piracy, but I also think it was going to die anyway because of the internet. I said it in another thread and I'll say it here: the internet has dissolved the need of publishers and producers to be there. It dissolved the artificial scarcity upon which they built themselves and now they can no longer stand as a distributive barrier between those who have talent and those who want to enjoy that talent, which means they will no longer be able to create and artificially inflate revenue streams from other people's creative efforts.
I also think it is a bit silly to count all pirated downloads as lost revenue and sales. I am sure a good portion of the people who pirate were not going to pay for it to begin with. At the same time I know there have been times I have pirated something and later went out and bought because I thought it was good. I know that is a fallacy but I would still like to think that happens more often then naught.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
I also think it is a bit silly to count all pirated downloads as lost revenue and sales. I am sure a good portion of the people who pirate were not going to pay for it to begin with. At the same time I know there have been times I have pirated something and later went out and bought because I thought it was good. I know that is a fallacy but I would still like to think that happens more often then naught.
It's human nature to value what we don't have, devalue what we have an abundance of. When people are able to freely pirate this and that, it's easy to call something worthless to and something they wouldn't have purchased anyway.
At least that's the way I honestly work; give me 10 of anything, I won't value them as much as I would've the 1 thing I didn't have.
So I disbelieve the notion that it wouldn't have been purchased anyway. It's no coincidence that rises in piracy equate to lower revenues in every example market one could think of across th world. Is China's IT industry doing as well as ours? No. Has South Korea's measurably improved in terms of revenues as piracy lowered? Yes.
Regardless of any math asserted about revenue losses due to piracy, the general idea is correct, piracy does lead to revenue losses. It's plain factual and evident in our world. Some of the side effects are even worse though; any medium where piracy occurs heavily is usually thrown to the wayside in order for other more controlled but not necessarily consumer-ideal circumstances.
Those mediums though are our future and cure for piracy. We can only hope piracy is rectified by private companies and doesn't further exasperate into an issue some claim only the federal government can solve.
Well, i am happy to see everyone here has different opinions. But one thing is for sure, everyone here thinks different than on the spanish forums i went to, were everyone just judged me as a rich american that can afford games lol. Well there are two coins of this issues.. and i agree with the side that says sharing is caring. But when all you do is share your stuff, and not buying anything at all for x or y reason, you are just stealing from your friends who bought the product with their hard earned money. And in the long run you are stealing from the artists that made the product. I dont think gamers should play ilegally downloaded games.. it doesnt help the industry in the long run. is selfish. And i understand is hard for some people to see the big picture, most people only care about their own good.. Developers must do more things to fuck piracy.. without fucking the ones that actually pay for the games.. Why do you think there are so many wow and lineage "private" servers and no ffxi private servers?
Just had to point that out...I hate people who are so nieve.
As for the whole piracy thing. Perhaps I am one of the few that still believes in paying for my items. And I pass that idea onto my kids. After all, movies,games and music are all made by people who need to make a living...just the same as the rest of us.
There is talk of the music industry being in trouble cause of the crazy piracy going on. As time goes on...more n more of the entertainment industry will slow down it's release to the public.
I also think it is a bit silly to count all pirated downloads as lost revenue and sales. I am sure a good portion of the people who pirate were not going to pay for it to begin with. At the same time I know there have been times I have pirated something and later went out and bought because I thought it was good. I know that is a fallacy but I would still like to think that happens more often then naught.
It's human nature to value what we don't have, devalue what we have an abundance of. When people are able to freely pirate this and that, it's easy to call something worthless to and something they wouldn't have purchased anyway.
At least that's the way I honestly work; give me 10 of anything, I won't value them as much as I would've the 1 thing I didn't have.
So I disbelieve the notion that it wouldn't have been purchased anyway. It's no coincidence that rises in piracy equate to lower revenues in every example market one could think of across th world. Is China's IT industry doing as well as ours? No. Has South Korea's measurably improved in terms of revenues as piracy lowered? Yes.
Regardless of any math asserted about revenue losses due to piracy, the general idea is correct, piracy does lead to revenue losses. It's plain factual and evident in our world. Some of the side effects are even worse though; any medium where piracy occurs heavily is usually thrown to the wayside in order for other more controlled but not necessarily consumer-ideal circumstances.
Those mediums though are our future and cure for piracy. We can only hope piracy is rectified by private companies and doesn't further exasperate into an issue some claim only the federal government can solve.
This only goes to show there are many many dimensions to this problem and general solutions are not going to properly address them.
I agree there are some people like you and sometimes I do it too, however there is still a group that will commit it because it is available. An example is my dad who used to pirate movies almost constantly ( I don't think he does it as much anymore ) but I know full well he would not have gone to see those movies in theaters and he definitely would not have purchased the DVDs either and is not interested enough to rent them. (again I am aware that this is an argumentative fallacy)
I think this underscores something more fundamental about the problem: it goes back to the basics of the economics; where before when people voted with their wallets they would simply not purchase it, the demand would go down, etc. However in our technological age we can still access that content. Is this ethically wrong? Maybe, but is it any different if they lost their money and we didn't pirate the content?
Edit:
I think though if what I said is correct that if these industries are going to survive they need to adapt to that, with the forethought that the millions, possibily billions that they made before were inflated numbers (like what I talked about before) and they are never going to have that kind of revenue again. Additionally I think it is that exact realization that anti-piracy groups are so pro-active in trying to get federal governments involved on their side so they can maintain their artificially created and inflated revenue streams and not have to face the reality of the situation.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
Spoken like a person who has never created anything worthwhile in his life. This mindset is a recipe for a desolate and artless world. Perhaps it is unavoidable, and perhaps it is what humanity deserves.
Riiight, cause an artist's primary motivation is money. If your manufacturing art for profit, your nothing but a sellout. Real artists create art for art's sake. Of course arguing with you on this subject is pointless as your no better the outfctrl, deadset in your ways, conservative to the core.
Oppress music, it's what the labels have been doing to artists for 50+ years. I live in a world where art is to be shared, not locked behind a door so you can charge money for it. Dirty capitalist...
You really think I'm conservative, eh?
Interesting.
I am inflexible in my beliefs about little weasels who think they can help themselves to anyone's intellectual property just because they want it.
I was always happy to spend money on good music. I will never understand how people consider themselves fans when they are so willing to gleefully trash the livelyhood of the musicians that they "like."
What can I say, it has always seemed fair to me to pay for something that I enjoyed.
You are correct though. It is pointless to argue with me on this point. People who pirate music, games, etc. are thieves and they should be treated as such.
On this subject, hell yeah you have a completely conservative stance.
Excuse me for supporting artists by seeing them play live, instead of buying a shitty cd so a record executive can buy a new Ferrari (or Phil Spector can kill another hooker). Record labels fuck over musicians six ways to Sunday for over half a century now, not only ripping the artist off but also dictating what an artist can and cannot do. Signing a contract with a major label is practiacally selling yourself into indentured slavery. Id rather the artist get the bulk of the money, not some douchebag exec.
My opinion is: If it is something I feel worthy of my time, then it's something I would want the originator to continue. The only way they can do that is by generating revenue from it.
Piracy is not only stealing, it's also stupid and self-serving.
What people need to understand is that there is a much larger picture here. Control over information is the most powerful tool in the world. If you control what information people have access to, you control their opinions, their beliefs. It is a form of mind control, and the most powerful weapon in existance today. This is not some " conspiracy theory" it is a well known and well used weapon used throughout history. The politicians in the past did not have the support or power to implement such controls, but are gaining support for this movement at an alarming rate. The fuel to the fire is all the free stuff we are enjoying now. That is what is pushing all the industry from gaming to newspapers to give them support for this. They are now willing to trade freedom of information for security of their jobs. The governments very much want this power, because it will allow them to control the mass populations without much resistance. There is so much more going on here, but people for the most part, are not seeing the wheels they are putting into motion by their enjoyment of all the free stuff made readily available now. Due to the piracy supporters, we will lose our freedom to communicate freely in the manner we are now accustomed. Unless we can come up with a better solution to protect peoples work, so they are not losing their incomes over pirated products, they will be able to implement full information controls in the very near futre. I am not even sure if there is anything we can do to stop it now, they already have the support and abilty they need to carry this out. Our opinions will not matter on this once they have gained full control over the net, because we will not be able to communicate them as we do now. They ALREADY see the net as a threat, and we have many in the US congress that want stricter control over the internet. By giving them this power, we will sacrfice our freedom.
You guys need to read and understand what the chick with the scary red text has written above.
This is by far the most serious social aspect of piracy, Breaking laws with regard to intellectual property rights is eventually going to be used as an excuse to invade every single aspect of our private lives.
And you people that just HAD to have a free copyof the latests game/ movie/ album are going to be the ones responsible for bringing this down on all of us. Selfishness has consequences.
I hate DRM with every fiber of my soul.. when I buy an audio file I should be able to use it on any platform that I wish.. but because of you ASSHATS that think it is harmless to hand out thousands of copies of that song to other people for nothing now we are ALL stuck with draconian DRM. Selfishness. Egocentrism. Entitlement. Short-sightedness..... these are apparently the hallmarks of the new generation on this planet. Personally it doesn't even really bother me anymore because I'm hoping to live long enough to get a couple years worth of "I told you so" in before I kick the bucket.
Those of you calling me conservative are a joke. I am a bleeding heart liberal. This not an issue about left/ right.. it is an issue about right/ wrong! I grew up understanding that you do not take things that DO NOT BELONG TO YOU. Somehow my opponents in this thread seem to think the argument "yeah, but we WANT it" somehow changes this. It doesn't.
For those of you having a hard time understanding my "piracy has caused a decline in music quality" stance :
Most of the really great musicians I know are really intelligent in addition to being exceptionally good songwriters and performers. Giving up your day job and going after music full time is ALWAYS a crap shoot... but for many over the years the chance to "make it big" was enough of a draw to get them to take the plunge. You say touring and merchandising should provide enough income so that musicians just give their music away happily.. this is asinine.
First of all, touring is brutal. It is devastating to families (and health) and you can not tour for ever.
Second, a good record (used to) keep selling forever. The thought of a 60 year old musician playing to some crowd at a state fair just to keep food on the table is too depressing to think about..
So here's my point: if you 've got a brilliant singer songwriter looking at the business today who ALSO can very easily get into law/ med school.. guess which one the smart one is going to choose? Record labels suck.. just like all business people who stick their filthy fingers into the arts to make a profit... but record sales provided the possibility of real, steady income.
I have SEEN this with my own eyes: A LOT of the really brilliant folks who might have been out there making the really important music of our day realized there was no point in pouring their soul into something that wasn't even going to be respected by their FANS. They made the conscious decision to steer clear of a dying industry. A lot of them do great things and still give back in their own ways, but quite honestly it would break your heart to hear the brilliance that they now only bring out on a friday night or with friends on vacation. I would like to have seen what some of them would have become had they taken the "plunge."
So go ahead with the personal attacks and the arm waving arguments. I'll be right here, tranquil and resolute.. ready to keep calling "bullshit" on these "piracy is cool" whines by selfish little children and people that have never created a single great thing in their lives.
And p.s.- thanks for inviting big brother into all of our lives.
Edit- I forgot to add the obvious corollary here: when all the smart people abandon makiing music as a career, guess what? You go from Bob Dylan and U2...... to Britney spears and the "stanky leg." Have fun with that.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
People will always take a freebie first if it's available. You can't turn back time. You can't uninvent the wheel. No, actually some people used to understand that stealing was wrong. They respected the people that made the music that they loved. The underground and just starting out bands don't get hurt by piracy at all. They don't have any sales to lose. They don't make any money. No one is stealing their music. No one even knows they exist, thats what the underground is all about. If you had a record deal, you wouldn't be underground. Quite the opposite, home publishing and home distributing on services like Youtube and P2P networks are giving them a platform to get famous and to earn themselves an audience and following big enough to get them paying gigs. These people want you to download their music. They will do anything to reach an audience. No more waiting to be spotted, no more waiting for your big break, it is easier and cheaper than ever before for a new band to get established, easier for underground acts to find and engage with their audiences. Hence the massive tidal wave of hopelessly mediocre CRAP that we all get to wade through now to find anything worth listening to (see the "stanky leg" again for reference). For all of their evils, one GREAT thing record labels did was to screen out all of the crap bands who's careers should rightfully end in a garage or the local pub. This populist mediocre music movement has resulted in abominations like american Idol where millions of people watch sub-par karaoke singers and think they are seeing actual music.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Originally posted by Enkindu So here's my point: if you 've got a brilliant singer songwriter looking at the business today who ALSO can very easily get into law/ med school.. guess which one the smart one is going to choose?
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
Originally posted by Enkindu So here's my point: if you 've got a brilliant singer songwriter looking at the business today who ALSO can very easily get into law/ med school.. guess which one the smart one is going to choose?
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
Yep, dirty hippies like Dylan, John Lennon, Paul Simon, Tom Petty... never did anything for anyone.
Then on the other hand, thanks for making a post that gets you on everyones' "do not take seriously" list.
If you think the collected works of a great songwriter do not have a MASSIVE impact on society then you are even more confused than I thought.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Originally posted by Enkindu So here's my point: if you 've got a brilliant singer songwriter looking at the business today who ALSO can very easily get into law/ med school.. guess which one the smart one is going to choose?
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
Yep, dirty hippies like Dylan, John Lennon, Paul Simon, Tom Petty... never did anything for anyone.
Then on the other hand, thanks for making a post that gets you on everyones' "do not take seriously" list.
If you think the collected works of a great songwriter do not have a MASSIVE impact on society then you are even more confused than I thought.
Thanks for proving my point. You listed the dirtiest of the dirty.
'Cause I gave you and your squadron of bleeding heart moraltards a little dash motherfucking ladel full of truth? Oh well. I'm used to it. It's not like this is the first time I've laid down a thick coating of truth juice, only to be ignored by someone with too much pride.
If that's your idea of a MASSIVE impact on society, your mind would be fuckin' BLOWN if they decided to do something useful with their time.
Originally posted by Enkindu So here's my point: if you 've got a brilliant singer songwriter looking at the business today who ALSO can very easily get into law/ med school.. guess which one the smart one is going to choose?
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
Yep, dirty hippies like Dylan, John Lennon, Paul Simon, Tom Petty... never did anything for anyone.
Then on the other hand, thanks for making a post that gets you on everyones' "do not take seriously" list.
If you think the collected works of a great songwriter do not have a MASSIVE impact on society then you are even more confused than I thought.
Thanks for proving my point. You listed the dirtiest of the dirty.
'Cause I gave you and your squadron of bleeding heart moraltards a little dash motherfucking ladel full of truth? Oh well. I'm used to it. It's not like this is the first time I've laid down a thick coating of truth juice, only to be ignored by someone with too much pride.
If that's your idea of a MASSIVE impact on society, your mind would be fuckin' BLOWN if they decided to do something useful with their time.
Hehe. Funniest post of the month so far.
I'd venture a guess that most people would find a world without great music a VERY dark place indeed. If you don't understand what a great song does for the spirit, you'll never understand where I'm coming from anyway.
Edit- look, I don't want to harsh on you. You're obviously a young guy.. after you get out and see a little of the would things will probably make a lot more sense. Or not, who knows.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Originally posted by Enkindu So here's my point: if you 've got a brilliant singer songwriter looking at the business today who ALSO can very easily get into law/ med school.. guess which one the smart one is going to choose?
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
Yep, dirty hippies like Dylan, John Lennon, Paul Simon, Tom Petty... never did anything for anyone.
Then on the other hand, thanks for making a post that gets you on everyones' "do not take seriously" list.
If you think the collected works of a great songwriter do not have a MASSIVE impact on society then you are even more confused than I thought.
Thanks for proving my point. You listed the dirtiest of the dirty.
'Cause I gave you and your squadron of bleeding heart moraltards a little dash motherfucking ladel full of truth? Oh well. I'm used to it. It's not like this is the first time I've laid down a thick coating of truth juice, only to be ignored by someone with too much pride.
If that's your idea of a MASSIVE impact on society, your mind would be fuckin' BLOWN if they decided to do something useful with their time.
Hehe. Funniest post of the month so far.
I'd venture a guess that most people would find a world without great music a VERY dark place indeed. If you don't understand what a great song does for the spirit, you'll never understand where I'm coming from anyway.
Edit- look, I don't want to harsh on you. You're obviously a young guy.. after you get out and see a little of the would things will probably make a lot more sense. Or not, who knows.
*sigh* Like I said, everyone:
this is the first time I've laid down a thick coating of truth juice, only to be ignored by someone with too much pride.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
People will always take a freebie first if it's available. You can't turn back time. You can't uninvent the wheel. No, actually some people used to understand that stealing was wrong. They respected the people that made the music that they loved. The underground and just starting out bands don't get hurt by piracy at all. They don't have any sales to lose. They don't make any money. No one is stealing their music. No one even knows they exist, thats what the underground is all about. If you had a record deal, you wouldn't be underground. Quite the opposite, home publishing and home distributing on services like Youtube and P2P networks are giving them a platform to get famous and to earn themselves an audience and following big enough to get them paying gigs. These people want you to download their music. They will do anything to reach an audience. No more waiting to be spotted, no more waiting for your big break, it is easier and cheaper than ever before for a new band to get established, easier for underground acts to find and engage with their audiences. Hence the massive tidal wave of hopelessly mediocre CRAP that we all get to wade through now to find anything worth listening to (see the "stanky leg" again for reference). For all of their evils, one GREAT thing record labels did was to screen out all of the crap bands who's careers should rightfully end in a garage or the local pub. This populist mediocre music movement has resulted in abominations like american Idol where millions of people watch sub-par karaoke singers and think they are seeing actual music.
I'm sorry, piracy created American Idol? I think you'll find that American Idol is an industry promotion.
American Idol is the process of music companies filtering out "all that crap".
The populist mediocre music movement is what brings all the money in. It's what get's pirated most because it's what sells most, it's what the talents scouts say will sell. This is the record industry you so respect in action.
Personally piracy doesn't affect the music I love at all. I don't really respect Britney Spears or whoever your favourite band is. I have no intrest in pirating their music. If they want my money they will have to turn up and earn it. There is absolutely no shortage of extremely talented musicians in the world who are willing to if they don't want to.
The musicians I listen to, want to be heard. It's not my respect or money they seek, it's my enjoyment. I have no intrest at all in people who are in it for the wrong reasons.
Originally posted by baff I'm sorry, piracy created American Idol? I think you'll find that American Idol is an industry promotion. American Idol is the process of music companies filtering out all that crap.
The populist mediocre music movement is what brings all the money in. It's what get's pirated most becuase it's what sells most, it's what the talents scouts say will sell. This is the record industry you so respect in action.
Actually I think this ties back into what sepher said earlier when he argued things get devalued as they increase in abundance. The record industry started pumping out "music" (I put it in quotes because the record industry cares about music like EA cares about video games: they are cash flows) that sold and what ended up happening was at some point all this "music" began to sound the same. What happened as a result is it lost its value but they continued to try and sell and reproduce the same sound and people didn't think it was worth the value, but our technological age allows us access to that content even if we decide it is too expensive to actually purchase. The industries did it to themselves and piracy is a result, not the root.
Second good music is still being made today, but it doesn't come from the recording industry. There are still real musicians out there making music because they love the art and they care about it and they are the same ones who don't get into music to "make it big" or sellout and the internet gives access to them on a scale and availability that the recording industry could only have dreamed of.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
I've always found that the recording industry has had a very, very limited stock of great music. They still have plenty, but the live circuits, the Indie circuits and the underground circuits have more and better for my tastes.
Piracy is a side effect of success. Anything that is getting heavily pirated is already making money. The more successful it is the more pirated it is. Certainly piracy is hurting their revenues. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's killing the industry, it's certainly killing the publishing and distribution aspect of the industry. But then I think this is a good thing. Music shouldn't be monopolised for profit. We no longer have any need of publishers and distributors for the most part. Technology has liberated and enabled us all.
Personally all my music sounds the same. It goes thump thump thump and that's the way I like it!
You people that scream for blood and justice amuse me. Do you realize how many people would be jailed if they started cracking down like you want? Do you? There wouldn't be enough prisons in the world.
Furthermore, what I'm really tired of is the "Pirates Are Causing the Govt. To Make Bad Laws". Piracy is a changing of the times because people were tired of the old model. The industry isn't suffering as much as you claim it is.
Yet you all sit here and scold anybody that's downloaded.. like they're causing everything?
You all remind me of a mother who scolds a child after the father mercilessly beat the child, because she thinks it was the child's fault.
Regardless of how wrong piracy is, it's just not going anywhere, it's just too popular. Stop blaming people for the industry and government's actions, nobody is forcing their crooked hands.
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If you're going to go so far as to believe the government has planned this all along and wanted it be freely available to give way for rightful excuses to pass legislation, then I think you people would realize that they also planned for people to hate eachother so they don't have to do the footwork. It's called divide and conquer.
The industry isn't suffering as much as you claim it is.
The industry is suffering because the revenue streams they had become accustomed to are no longer paying dividends. That was the baby boomers buying multiple copies of the same album for different platforms (vinyl, 8-track, cassette, CD, and now digital download). The younger generations are not forking out that money and profits are slipping. Digital download is the form of purchase today. Every time a person pirates a song that is a potential loss to the producer, publisher, and the artist. I say "potential loss" because there's no guarantee that the person would have purchased it anyway. However, if they can steal it (and are willing to) they certainly won't pay for it.
Comments
LOL why you post that picture of an ugly pirate.. we all know girls make better pirates.
Girl pirates> boy pirates!
*saves those pictures* >.>
well of course we know that they are much better in many many ways o.o
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
It's a complex matter, but the sum of it is of course piracy is bad, hurts our economy and wastes taxpayer dollars and minutes in congress.
There's quite a lot of sects though and they behave and respond differently to piracy.
Software developers/vendors for example have a history of trying new ways to combat and lower piracy rates, and for the most part have succeeded since software is pirated here in the US less anywhere else in the world (still at about 20% or so; a lot less than 80%+ in China). With content based around data portability (feeds and APIs serving up info), and the advent of cloud computing and everything that it means, I suspect software vendors will continue to lower piracy all on their own and support a more free and open internet.
Hollywood and the music industry though? Different story. They constantly pursue legislation to protect IPs. From current litigation that's looking to prevent RealNetworks from releasing RealDVD to legislation passed under the noise of the bailout and campaign coverage last year that creates an Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator in government that has the power to reach across many different departments to intervene in all matters of IP protection.
The current trends of anti-piracy pursuits are bleeding into our government. It's not paranoia so much as it's a reality. Right now there's a bunch of private companies that do things like sniff peer-to-peer networks and report offenders to internet providers. What happens when under new law, it becomes the DOJ's job to go on the offensive, find and prosecute pirates on peer-to-peer networks? They'd actually be doing justice by doing so, but in the process it's a waste of taxpayer money and waste of time in government.
Furthermore there's too much collateral damage; like the above example of what RealNetwork's is going through. Useful technology can and will be barred by courts if its deemed to be useable for piracy. Again in some sects of IP-driven business the private companies themselves solve their problems; Amazon's Kindle or Nintendo's DSi, but again there's heavy-handed entites out there that want the government to intervene and are seeing no resistance in getting legislation passed.
Their fuel is the rampant piracy going on. It's real, and the losses of money are real. I work in software and I feel my industry will come out fine, but the internet is shared and organizations like the RIAA don't give a crap about combating piracy any other way other than involving the government.
So what will happen? Well we're going to have more government control over the internet in pursuit of protecting copyrights and intellectual property. Ideally all of the ruckus will settle with big public trackers on peer-to-peer networks being brought down akin to what happened to The Pirate Bay overseas, and it doesn't bleed over into individual types of technology being dictated which I'm concerned about the most.
As soon as all 99.9% of musicians are paying royalties to Bach and Beethoven, I'll consider their claims of "piracy" and hypocrtical claims of IP more seriously.
A little something to help you learn how the system works.... www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Public_domain you may call that unfair but they gave the reasons for how it works right now.. could it change in the future aye just as it has changed in the past.
I wonder though, is the rampant piracy a result of the decline in quality of movies, music, and videogames or is the decline due to piracy? I tend to lean towards the former rather than the latter.
The recording industry might be dead due to piracy, but I also think it was going to die anyway because of the internet. I said it in another thread and I'll say it here: the internet has dissolved the need of publishers and producers to be there. It dissolved the artificial scarcity upon which they built themselves and now they can no longer stand as a distributive barrier between those who have talent and those who want to enjoy that talent, which means they will no longer be able to create and artificially inflate revenue streams from other people's creative efforts.
I also think it is a bit silly to count all pirated downloads as lost revenue and sales. I am sure a good portion of the people who pirate were not going to pay for it to begin with. At the same time I know there have been times I have pirated something and later went out and bought because I thought it was good. I know that is a fallacy but I would still like to think that happens more often then naught.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
It's human nature to value what we don't have, devalue what we have an abundance of. When people are able to freely pirate this and that, it's easy to call something worthless to and something they wouldn't have purchased anyway.
At least that's the way I honestly work; give me 10 of anything, I won't value them as much as I would've the 1 thing I didn't have.
So I disbelieve the notion that it wouldn't have been purchased anyway. It's no coincidence that rises in piracy equate to lower revenues in every example market one could think of across th world. Is China's IT industry doing as well as ours? No. Has South Korea's measurably improved in terms of revenues as piracy lowered? Yes.
Regardless of any math asserted about revenue losses due to piracy, the general idea is correct, piracy does lead to revenue losses. It's plain factual and evident in our world. Some of the side effects are even worse though; any medium where piracy occurs heavily is usually thrown to the wayside in order for other more controlled but not necessarily consumer-ideal circumstances.
Those mediums though are our future and cure for piracy. We can only hope piracy is rectified by private companies and doesn't further exasperate into an issue some claim only the federal government can solve.
NO FFXI free servers? Well I am glad you cleared that up. Please tho...explain this www.xtremetop100.com/final-fantasy
Just had to point that out...I hate people who are so nieve.
As for the whole piracy thing. Perhaps I am one of the few that still believes in paying for my items. And I pass that idea onto my kids. After all, movies,games and music are all made by people who need to make a living...just the same as the rest of us.
There is talk of the music industry being in trouble cause of the crazy piracy going on. As time goes on...more n more of the entertainment industry will slow down it's release to the public.
It's human nature to value what we don't have, devalue what we have an abundance of. When people are able to freely pirate this and that, it's easy to call something worthless to and something they wouldn't have purchased anyway.
At least that's the way I honestly work; give me 10 of anything, I won't value them as much as I would've the 1 thing I didn't have.
So I disbelieve the notion that it wouldn't have been purchased anyway. It's no coincidence that rises in piracy equate to lower revenues in every example market one could think of across th world. Is China's IT industry doing as well as ours? No. Has South Korea's measurably improved in terms of revenues as piracy lowered? Yes.
Regardless of any math asserted about revenue losses due to piracy, the general idea is correct, piracy does lead to revenue losses. It's plain factual and evident in our world. Some of the side effects are even worse though; any medium where piracy occurs heavily is usually thrown to the wayside in order for other more controlled but not necessarily consumer-ideal circumstances.
Those mediums though are our future and cure for piracy. We can only hope piracy is rectified by private companies and doesn't further exasperate into an issue some claim only the federal government can solve.
This only goes to show there are many many dimensions to this problem and general solutions are not going to properly address them.
I agree there are some people like you and sometimes I do it too, however there is still a group that will commit it because it is available. An example is my dad who used to pirate movies almost constantly ( I don't think he does it as much anymore ) but I know full well he would not have gone to see those movies in theaters and he definitely would not have purchased the DVDs either and is not interested enough to rent them. (again I am aware that this is an argumentative fallacy)
I think this underscores something more fundamental about the problem: it goes back to the basics of the economics; where before when people voted with their wallets they would simply not purchase it, the demand would go down, etc. However in our technological age we can still access that content. Is this ethically wrong? Maybe, but is it any different if they lost their money and we didn't pirate the content?
Edit:
I think though if what I said is correct that if these industries are going to survive they need to adapt to that, with the forethought that the millions, possibily billions that they made before were inflated numbers (like what I talked about before) and they are never going to have that kind of revenue again. Additionally I think it is that exact realization that anti-piracy groups are so pro-active in trying to get federal governments involved on their side so they can maintain their artificially created and inflated revenue streams and not have to face the reality of the situation.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
Riiight, cause an artist's primary motivation is money. If your manufacturing art for profit, your nothing but a sellout. Real artists create art for art's sake. Of course arguing with you on this subject is pointless as your no better the outfctrl, deadset in your ways, conservative to the core.
Oppress music, it's what the labels have been doing to artists for 50+ years. I live in a world where art is to be shared, not locked behind a door so you can charge money for it. Dirty capitalist...
You really think I'm conservative, eh?
Interesting.
I am inflexible in my beliefs about little weasels who think they can help themselves to anyone's intellectual property just because they want it.
I was always happy to spend money on good music. I will never understand how people consider themselves fans when they are so willing to gleefully trash the livelyhood of the musicians that they "like."
What can I say, it has always seemed fair to me to pay for something that I enjoyed.
You are correct though. It is pointless to argue with me on this point. People who pirate music, games, etc. are thieves and they should be treated as such.
On this subject, hell yeah you have a completely conservative stance.
Excuse me for supporting artists by seeing them play live, instead of buying a shitty cd so a record executive can buy a new Ferrari (or Phil Spector can kill another hooker). Record labels fuck over musicians six ways to Sunday for over half a century now, not only ripping the artist off but also dictating what an artist can and cannot do. Signing a contract with a major label is practiacally selling yourself into indentured slavery. Id rather the artist get the bulk of the money, not some douchebag exec.
My opinion is: If it is something I feel worthy of my time, then it's something I would want the originator to continue. The only way they can do that is by generating revenue from it.
Piracy is not only stealing, it's also stupid and self-serving.
You guys need to read and understand what the chick with the scary red text has written above.
This is by far the most serious social aspect of piracy, Breaking laws with regard to intellectual property rights is eventually going to be used as an excuse to invade every single aspect of our private lives.
And you people that just HAD to have a free copyof the latests game/ movie/ album are going to be the ones responsible for bringing this down on all of us. Selfishness has consequences.
I hate DRM with every fiber of my soul.. when I buy an audio file I should be able to use it on any platform that I wish.. but because of you ASSHATS that think it is harmless to hand out thousands of copies of that song to other people for nothing now we are ALL stuck with draconian DRM. Selfishness. Egocentrism. Entitlement. Short-sightedness..... these are apparently the hallmarks of the new generation on this planet. Personally it doesn't even really bother me anymore because I'm hoping to live long enough to get a couple years worth of "I told you so" in before I kick the bucket.
Those of you calling me conservative are a joke. I am a bleeding heart liberal. This not an issue about left/ right.. it is an issue about right/ wrong! I grew up understanding that you do not take things that DO NOT BELONG TO YOU. Somehow my opponents in this thread seem to think the argument "yeah, but we WANT it" somehow changes this. It doesn't.
For those of you having a hard time understanding my "piracy has caused a decline in music quality" stance :
Most of the really great musicians I know are really intelligent in addition to being exceptionally good songwriters and performers. Giving up your day job and going after music full time is ALWAYS a crap shoot... but for many over the years the chance to "make it big" was enough of a draw to get them to take the plunge. You say touring and merchandising should provide enough income so that musicians just give their music away happily.. this is asinine.
First of all, touring is brutal. It is devastating to families (and health) and you can not tour for ever.
Second, a good record (used to) keep selling forever. The thought of a 60 year old musician playing to some crowd at a state fair just to keep food on the table is too depressing to think about..
So here's my point: if you 've got a brilliant singer songwriter looking at the business today who ALSO can very easily get into law/ med school.. guess which one the smart one is going to choose? Record labels suck.. just like all business people who stick their filthy fingers into the arts to make a profit... but record sales provided the possibility of real, steady income.
I have SEEN this with my own eyes: A LOT of the really brilliant folks who might have been out there making the really important music of our day realized there was no point in pouring their soul into something that wasn't even going to be respected by their FANS. They made the conscious decision to steer clear of a dying industry. A lot of them do great things and still give back in their own ways, but quite honestly it would break your heart to hear the brilliance that they now only bring out on a friday night or with friends on vacation. I would like to have seen what some of them would have become had they taken the "plunge."
So go ahead with the personal attacks and the arm waving arguments. I'll be right here, tranquil and resolute.. ready to keep calling "bullshit" on these "piracy is cool" whines by selfish little children and people that have never created a single great thing in their lives.
And p.s.- thanks for inviting big brother into all of our lives.
Edit- I forgot to add the obvious corollary here: when all the smart people abandon makiing music as a career, guess what? You go from Bob Dylan and U2...... to Britney spears and the "stanky leg." Have fun with that.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
Yep, dirty hippies like Dylan, John Lennon, Paul Simon, Tom Petty... never did anything for anyone.
Then on the other hand, thanks for making a post that gets you on everyones' "do not take seriously" list.
If you think the collected works of a great songwriter do not have a MASSIVE impact on society then you are even more confused than I thought.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
Yep, dirty hippies like Dylan, John Lennon, Paul Simon, Tom Petty... never did anything for anyone.
Then on the other hand, thanks for making a post that gets you on everyones' "do not take seriously" list.
If you think the collected works of a great songwriter do not have a MASSIVE impact on society then you are even more confused than I thought.
Thanks for proving my point. You listed the dirtiest of the dirty.
'Cause I gave you and your squadron of bleeding heart moraltards a little dash motherfucking ladel full of truth? Oh well. I'm used to it. It's not like this is the first time I've laid down a thick coating of truth juice, only to be ignored by someone with too much pride.
If that's your idea of a MASSIVE impact on society, your mind would be fuckin' BLOWN if they decided to do something useful with their time.
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
Yep, dirty hippies like Dylan, John Lennon, Paul Simon, Tom Petty... never did anything for anyone.
Then on the other hand, thanks for making a post that gets you on everyones' "do not take seriously" list.
If you think the collected works of a great songwriter do not have a MASSIVE impact on society then you are even more confused than I thought.
Thanks for proving my point. You listed the dirtiest of the dirty.
'Cause I gave you and your squadron of bleeding heart moraltards a little dash motherfucking ladel full of truth? Oh well. I'm used to it. It's not like this is the first time I've laid down a thick coating of truth juice, only to be ignored by someone with too much pride.
If that's your idea of a MASSIVE impact on society, your mind would be fuckin' BLOWN if they decided to do something useful with their time.
Hehe. Funniest post of the month so far.
I'd venture a guess that most people would find a world without great music a VERY dark place indeed. If you don't understand what a great song does for the spirit, you'll never understand where I'm coming from anyway.
Edit- look, I don't want to harsh on you. You're obviously a young guy.. after you get out and see a little of the would things will probably make a lot more sense. Or not, who knows.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
More dirty hippies....
More benefits to society...
....dirty hippies
....benefits to society
Conclusion: Piracy actually helps humanity.
I didn't think it was possible, but I love piracy even more than I did before now!
Yep, dirty hippies like Dylan, John Lennon, Paul Simon, Tom Petty... never did anything for anyone.
Then on the other hand, thanks for making a post that gets you on everyones' "do not take seriously" list.
If you think the collected works of a great songwriter do not have a MASSIVE impact on society then you are even more confused than I thought.
Thanks for proving my point. You listed the dirtiest of the dirty.
'Cause I gave you and your squadron of bleeding heart moraltards a little dash motherfucking ladel full of truth? Oh well. I'm used to it. It's not like this is the first time I've laid down a thick coating of truth juice, only to be ignored by someone with too much pride.
If that's your idea of a MASSIVE impact on society, your mind would be fuckin' BLOWN if they decided to do something useful with their time.
Hehe. Funniest post of the month so far.
I'd venture a guess that most people would find a world without great music a VERY dark place indeed. If you don't understand what a great song does for the spirit, you'll never understand where I'm coming from anyway.
Edit- look, I don't want to harsh on you. You're obviously a young guy.. after you get out and see a little of the would things will probably make a lot more sense. Or not, who knows.
*sigh* Like I said, everyone:
this is the first time I've laid down a thick coating of truth juice, only to be ignored by someone with too much pride.
Reduced to repeating yourself....
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
It's not like you haven't been doing the same.
I'm sorry, piracy created American Idol? I think you'll find that American Idol is an industry promotion.
American Idol is the process of music companies filtering out "all that crap".
The populist mediocre music movement is what brings all the money in. It's what get's pirated most because it's what sells most, it's what the talents scouts say will sell. This is the record industry you so respect in action.
Personally piracy doesn't affect the music I love at all. I don't really respect Britney Spears or whoever your favourite band is. I have no intrest in pirating their music. If they want my money they will have to turn up and earn it. There is absolutely no shortage of extremely talented musicians in the world who are willing to if they don't want to.
The musicians I listen to, want to be heard. It's not my respect or money they seek, it's my enjoyment. I have no intrest at all in people who are in it for the wrong reasons.
Actually I think this ties back into what sepher said earlier when he argued things get devalued as they increase in abundance. The record industry started pumping out "music" (I put it in quotes because the record industry cares about music like EA cares about video games: they are cash flows) that sold and what ended up happening was at some point all this "music" began to sound the same. What happened as a result is it lost its value but they continued to try and sell and reproduce the same sound and people didn't think it was worth the value, but our technological age allows us access to that content even if we decide it is too expensive to actually purchase. The industries did it to themselves and piracy is a result, not the root.
Second good music is still being made today, but it doesn't come from the recording industry. There are still real musicians out there making music because they love the art and they care about it and they are the same ones who don't get into music to "make it big" or sellout and the internet gives access to them on a scale and availability that the recording industry could only have dreamed of.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
I've always found that the recording industry has had a very, very limited stock of great music. They still have plenty, but the live circuits, the Indie circuits and the underground circuits have more and better for my tastes.
Piracy is a side effect of success. Anything that is getting heavily pirated is already making money. The more successful it is the more pirated it is. Certainly piracy is hurting their revenues. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's killing the industry, it's certainly killing the publishing and distribution aspect of the industry. But then I think this is a good thing. Music shouldn't be monopolised for profit. We no longer have any need of publishers and distributors for the most part. Technology has liberated and enabled us all.
Personally all my music sounds the same. It goes thump thump thump and that's the way I like it!
You people that scream for blood and justice amuse me. Do you realize how many people would be jailed if they started cracking down like you want? Do you? There wouldn't be enough prisons in the world.
Furthermore, what I'm really tired of is the "Pirates Are Causing the Govt. To Make Bad Laws". Piracy is a changing of the times because people were tired of the old model. The industry isn't suffering as much as you claim it is.
Yet you all sit here and scold anybody that's downloaded.. like they're causing everything?
You all remind me of a mother who scolds a child after the father mercilessly beat the child, because she thinks it was the child's fault.
Regardless of how wrong piracy is, it's just not going anywhere, it's just too popular. Stop blaming people for the industry and government's actions, nobody is forcing their crooked hands.
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If you're going to go so far as to believe the government has planned this all along and wanted it be freely available to give way for rightful excuses to pass legislation, then I think you people would realize that they also planned for people to hate eachother so they don't have to do the footwork. It's called divide and conquer.
The industry is suffering because the revenue streams they had become accustomed to are no longer paying dividends. That was the baby boomers buying multiple copies of the same album for different platforms (vinyl, 8-track, cassette, CD, and now digital download). The younger generations are not forking out that money and profits are slipping. Digital download is the form of purchase today. Every time a person pirates a song that is a potential loss to the producer, publisher, and the artist. I say "potential loss" because there's no guarantee that the person would have purchased it anyway. However, if they can steal it (and are willing to) they certainly won't pay for it.