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How to make a DKP system work?
Antipathy
Member UncommonPosts: 1,362
A few months ago my guild introduced a DKP system. We're now tying to review it, and several people seem to agree our current system has problems. Here's what I'd like to see from a DKP system:
- An incentive to attend raids. Even the difficult raids with lots of wipes.
- The very best items should go to people who have contributed most to the guild's progress
- Everyone should get something, and have some incentive to come along to raids. No one should feel "I have to raid for an entire year before I get a single item".
- People shouldn't be penalised heavily for taking small upgrades when they're available.
Here are some of the problems I can see with some DKP systems:
- "Farm raids" pay out a lot more DKP than progress raids. Even if the progress raids pay more per boss, farm raids down more bosses, and hence may have a higher total. Result - attendance drops for progress raids = no progress.
- DKP Inflation can discourage newcomers, who may be in a position where they never catch up. Feeling like second class citizens even after being in a guild for 6 months or more, they may quit and go elsewhere.
- People skip taking intermediate rewards in order to have a high DKP total when the "best" items come along. This may result in intermediate value items being disenchanted or sold, and the raid may end up less geared than it could otherwise have been, resulting in more wipes and less progress.
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So what are people's experiences with DKP systems?
Does anyone out there use a system that they feel works well?
Or do people prefer other forms of distributing loot - e.g. loot council, or just rolling for gear.
Comments
Back when I played WoW I was a big fan of the loot queue system - basically we had a big list, initially everyone was placed randomly, new people went on the bottom.
If you weren't in the raid, you were 'frozen' on the list. As for everyone else, when something dropped, the person in the #1 slot could take it or pass. If they passed, the #2 person could take it, and so on until it eventually got to the bottom and was then handed out as a freebie or disenchanted. If you took something you went to the bottom of the list.
Being the loot officer and the main healer before the days of dual-specs, I was a big asshole about making sure that if it was your turn you could take it regardless of whether it was for 'your spec' or not.
People were happy for the most part, it seemed to work well. People who were holding out for one item could get it, and people who were new and didn't have any decent gear would get all the crap everyone else passed on fairly quickly.
Personally I think DKP and other such loot systems are a product of a game that doesn't handle loot very well. The game doesn't do it so the players have to. In such item-based progression games I'd rather see a system where the bosses drop loot individually for everyone (perhaps in the form of badges or individual loot tables that usually drop crap but can drop something good too).
DKP systems are just to complicated for their own good and should be avoided. The inflation of the system is most of the problem and can actually kill your raid instead of help it.
If you simply must do a dkp system, then look up 'zero sum dkp' systems. The basic idea is that you spend every single dkp point when you take an item. People who attend more get more points and get to purchase more often. The problem, as with all dkp systems, is that people hold onto their points waiting for the super rare item and let tons of decent upgrades go to waste which doesn't help the raid overall.
I suggest looking into a suicide kings style loot system. It is bascially a ladder system similar to zero sum dkp, but it rewards those who want to hold out for big upgrades and those who want to take many small upgrades often. Basically everyone is put on a list from top to bottom. Top person gets first shot at any item that drops and so on down the list until someone takes it. The person who takes the item goes to the bottom of the list. People who show up more often move up the list faster. People who only make raids occassionally still hold their respecitve place. Everyone gets their fair shot at items given the same time span.
Two suggestions I would make:
If there are to many people holding out and decent upgrades are going to waste, start making people link their items in chat before they can pass. If the item goes to waste at the end of the list, people who passed on an upgrade move down a spot.
Second is you may want to make separate lists for tanks, healers and whatever various dps types you might have (physical/magic, melee/ranged, or whatever). Shorter lists encourage people to take items more often. It also sweethearts the tanks which overall helps a raid far more than any other class. If an item is suitable for two catagories either have them random for it or somethign else.
DKP system is a player created reaction to a broken game design.
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I always found loot council worked better. Officers decide who needs the item most, who will get the biggest upgrade from it.
As soon as you introduce DKP you get the problem of DKP Hoarders. But if you must I would choose a zero-sum system.
DKP wont reward those on learning/wipe raids, so instead use a Raiders Rank based on attendance. Raiders get priority on slots, but not on loot.
Not sure what to tell you. Every time a guild I was in mentioned using a dkp system I left the guild.
Sorry if I didn't see it in your post, but which game do you play?
Currently I'm playing Warcraft. I deliberately didn't mention the game, since I wanted to encourage responses from players of other games where DKP is common, such as Everquest.
My guild currently only uses DKP for 25-man raids, and we're progressing through Ulduar with 10-man cleared (apart from hard modes and Algalon), and 9 bosses down in the 25-man version.
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I recomment trying the EPGP system. It has worked well for my current guild. It's used mostly for main spec items. Anything that is offspec is rolled for by members (initiates if no members want) and then they can either pay the GP value into the system or pay the guild bank 150 gold.
Currently I'm playing Warcraft. I deliberately didn't mention the game, since I wanted to encourage responses from players of other games where DKP is common, such as Everquest.
My guild currently only uses DKP for 25-man raids, and we're progressing through Ulduar with 10-man cleared (apart from hard modes and Algalon), and 9 bosses down in the 25-man version.
I'd also recommend looking into EPGP, not only is it a fairly sound system, the ingame addon is really nice!
I forgot to to comment on this part.
Currently my guild uses a "be cool" approach to loot. If something is an upgrade for your primary role, then roll on it. We have a separate roll for off specs after that if no one wants it for their primary role. No keeping lists or counting points. If you are there and you kill the boss, you are welcome to share in the rewards. We tell new people joining that they are free to roll on whatever they want, but to keep everyone else in consideration and share. There is zero drama over items since everyone has the same amount of entitlement.
Sometimes it takes longer to distribute loot than it would with a dkp system, because people rolling for upgrades often talk about how big an upgrade something is and ask if it will be a bigger upgrade for someone else so they can pass it to them instead. Everything just works out on its own.
DKP systems are currently the fairest way to handle loot for massive raids in my opinion; however there implementation is severely flawed. Most guilds don't based their DKP system on any decent mathematics and thus huge amounts of inflation and DKP hoarding are the result. Good DKP systems are complex and difficult to manage. Loot also may not be distributed to those who need it the most (your main tanks). If you want to go with a complex DKP system I'd recommend the following:
- Use a Zero-sum DKP system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_kill_points#Zero-sum_DKP. It's by and large the fairest way to do DKP mathematically. It prevents inflation almost entirely.
- Set a DKP cap. This way players cannot hoard their points. This can be difficult to implement using zero-sum though.
- Since the Zero-sum DKP system doesn't give players as much incentive to raid on raids that will likely result in wiping (chance of being awarded 0 DKP for the raid) you'll need some sort of incentive for that. I'd recommend using the dummy character mentioned in the Wikipedia entry to also reward players on an hourly basis "bonus" points.
- Don't use an auction system. This will almost always be manipulated by the players. You'll see some valuable items going for next to nothing.
If you need more information on how it actually works just send me a private message and I'll respond to you when I can.
EPGP takes care of most of these problems. Especially when paired with a solid guild rank system.
On progression raids. Our guild gets extra EP on boss kills and hourly giving the players more incentive to come and wipe with us.
We used that sort of system before DKP was introduced. But it did cause a few problems. For example a newish player came along for our second ever Leotheras kill, rolled highest on a caster weapon that lots of people wanted, and then was never heard from again. Many of our established raiders were quite pissed off, especially given the several weeks of wiping we'd had to go through to get that boss down.
Part of the problem of a "roll" based system, is that the more effort someone puts in, the less reward he gets from each instance run. To see why, lets simplify things. We're only consider 2 players, and we're consider a raid where 10 items drop, each with a 10% chance. Player A is poorly geared and is along for his first raid. He will get an upgrade from all 10 items. Player B is well geared and an established part of the guild. Only one of the 10 items is an upgrade for him. He'll pass on the others.
Expected number of upgrades for player A = 0.1 * 9 + 0.1 / 2 = 0.95
Player A will receive on average one upgrade per raid.
Expected number of upgrades for player B = 0.1 / 2 = 0.05
Player B will have to raid 20 times to get any sort of upgrade.
Is that fair?
If we introduce DKP, then player A will still get more upgrades - but at least the gap will be smaller, and player B will be certain to get his item if it drops.
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EPGP definitely looks interesting. I'll mention it on my guild's site and see what people think
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The only thing a DKP system is good for is screwing the guy that got a pick up spot out of a fair chance at loot. I don't care how many times you have been on a raid to get something. Who ever participates on that raid at that time should have all have an equal chance to get an item for there class/spec. The arguments for DKP are no different than the arguements of the welthy in times past that felt there votes should cary more weight because they owned land. DKP is is social de-evolution.
You realize that if you don't like the loot system nobody is making you go on the raid, right?
Hmm - in our current society the arguments of the wealthy carry more weight because they own more television channels. Whether that's right of not is another matter, and is a little off-topic!
However, I personally believe someone who has spent 2 months wiping on a boss should be rewarded more than a person who just turned up for the final kill. You may disagree, and you have a right to, but you're not a member of my guild, so your voice carries little weight.
I don't want to get bogged down in a big argument here as to whether a DKP system is evil. We've tried the "all roll for loot" system before. We know how it works, and it's various pro's and con's, and we want something different. What I'm hoping for is constructive suggestions for better systems.
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We don't take pugs. EPGP or DKP w/e you want to call it works well for us.
If you took the time to clear Ulduar fully learning and wiping to the harder fights you would want some priority to your loot. Not going to let some guy who didn't come along for the progression raids come in and take that awesome upgrade you have been waiting for. Work harder, get rewards first. Sounds fair to me :P
You realize that if you don't like the loot system nobody is making you go on the raid, right?
I personally would only go on raid that uses the loot system that built into the game. But I wonder how quick people are to point that out when there running short on there numbers for what ever reason and pick someone up out of there clique. Do you explain to them up front how your DKP is going to screw them out of a fair chance at an item and that it is more or less a waist of there time to even participate.
You realize that if you don't like the loot system nobody is making you go on the raid, right?
I personally would only go on raid that uses the loot system that built into the game. But I wonder how quick people are to point that out when there running short on there numbers for what ever reason and pick someone up out of there clique. Do you explain to them up front how your DKP is going to screw them out of a fair chance at an item and that it is more or less a waist of there time to even participate.
Sounds like you have been burned. Doesn't mean DKP is "social de-evolution". Stick to the raids you like then. Don't expect a guild to switch up a whole system just b/c one person is new. If you want free rolls join pug raids. If you don't want to deal with loot systems don't go on guild raids. It's your choice.
Guys - if you want to debate whether rolling is better/worse than DKP, please start a different thread. Because that's something that could be debated endlessly, and it would distract from what I was actually hoping to get when I started the thread.
We have decided not to roll on loot. If you want to roll on loot, look for a different guild. There are many available.
Given that, which alternatives are available, and which of those alternatives is best?
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I've used dkp is most of the MMOs I've played. The biggest use of it was in EQ1 with massive raids. We never had a problem. Basically you make farm status bosses worth less. Also a per hour dkp system works so the farm status while more kills, would be the same dkp or less because it is much quicker.
The last one I used was the time dkp( in WoW). Also for raids that we were learning and had a lot of wipes, there would be bonus dkp for those who stayed to end. The people who put in more time got first chance at new items and of course we often had the tanks that we knew would stay get a few items right away to help us progress.
I've never had a problem with dkp. I think the reason why people do is because the rates are messed up. On the farm status mobs, people have an incentive to go because the kills are easy and they can get loot. On the new wiping all the time progress raids, the incentive needs to be more dkp so then they have something to spend on the easy raids, hehe.
You just need to tweak your system to get acceptable figures.
You realize that if you don't like the loot system nobody is making you go on the raid, right?
I personally would only go on raid that uses the loot system that built into the game. But I wonder how quick people are to point that out when there running short on there numbers for what ever reason and pick someone up out of there clique. Do you explain to them up front how your DKP is going to screw them out of a fair chance at an item and that it is more or less a waist of there time to even participate.
#1 Rule for Joining a Pickup Group:
-Make sure you establish what the loot rules are before you start
One of the risks of joining any pug is that you might get screwed out of loot by the group leader. Whether the reason given is DKP or that they just like to piss people off is pretty much irrelevant. As such you are only using that scenario as an excuse for why you hate the DKP system.
As far as DKP systems go my advice is to take a very close look at what your guild's raiding goals are. If you are just into casual raiding for some loot then have a DKP system that reflects that. If you are aiming for hardcore bleeding-edge progression then your system better reflect that. If your system tries to accomodate multiple onflicting goals it will just tear itself and your guild to pieces. My vanilla WoW guild broke apart because our raid leadership tried to shift our DKP system toward a heavy progression oriented one while many other members wanted to keep it casual and focused on farming content.
I have been a raidleader since classic EQ1, before even Kunark. I have normally used some form of DKP system, usually set up by the guild leaders, then I influenced it if I saw problems, or we fixed it if problems came along.
From that process, I can tell you the following:
Any DKP System is always a question of the lesser evil. The reason for that is human behaviour, which no system can fix. First of all, I too advise you to use a zero-sum system of sorts. DKP Inflation is THE worst thing to happen to you mid- and longterm. No matter how you do it, deal with hoarding in some way but dont punish those who only need a few items and rack up DKP because of bad luck. The best way to do it is up in the air, but as long as you make sure there is no huge inflation, you have already tackled the biggest problem.
Second, there are a few decisions to be made. Do you consider a tank or a healer the same as a Damage-Class? This is a big deal in the solo-centric games of today, where people are often looking to upgrade gear for stuff that is not their raid role. As a rule of thumb, I rank the needs of the damage-classes lower than the needs of the classes on which my raid is based on. That means, I will price items that are solely useful for a raid role as healer or tank very low, and I dont disallow competition on , for example, weapons where the tanks may want to pick one up for their PvP career.
This is a decision, and it will depend on your guild. If your tanks, for example, dont care about stuff other than pure tank items anyway, its no problem. If, like in mine, most people play the entire span of game modes, it means now and then a good weapon goes to a tank, who will not use it in a raid. Thats a price to pay for keeping people in your raids.
Third, identify your problems. Low attendance for progress raids? Raise DKP there, lower DKP on farm raids. Farm raids are always going to get filled up because the people want items, but to earn the DKP for these items, make progress raids pay far better.
Got a big problem with punctuality? People showing up unreliably? Consider giving a bonus for on-time attendance, and for pre-enlisting on a website or raid planner. I prefer to just kick people from a guild, or out of the raid team, if they would require severe penalties to show up on time. I dont think they really want to raid then, they just want to get loot. I dont believe in penalties and punishment.. when that is necessary, just replace them instead of dealing with the bad mood it creates.
Last but not least, DKP means more fairness, but it will mean items going to rot, or going to get disenchanted, because nobody wants to pay for them. There can be many reasons. Maybe you priced the item too high. Maybe a much better one drops from a boss you can kill too. Maybe there just isnt anybody needing that item. In either case, DO NOT cave in to suggestions like "well if nobody wants it, just roll it out". While it hurts to see a good item go to waste, it hurts the entire system if you start giving these out anyway if nobody wants to pay, because within a few weeks, people will start speculating. A druid staff dropped and nobody wants it? Well, you will have to give it to a druid, and oh look! Only 2 druids in the raid! So these druids can simply agree they wont ever bid on the staff, and within 2 drops get it anyway.
In my opinion, having items go to waste is the lesser evil , compared to conflict about loot fairness, which is why I use a DKP system.
If your main priority is getting as many items into the raid, no matter where, then by all means chose a different system.
We used that sort of system before DKP was introduced. But it did cause a few problems. For example a newish player came along for our second ever Leotheras kill, rolled highest on a caster weapon that lots of people wanted, and then was never heard from again. Many of our established raiders were quite pissed off, especially given the several weeks of wiping we'd had to go through to get that boss down.
Part of the problem of a "roll" based system, is that the more effort someone puts in, the less reward he gets from each instance run. To see why, lets simplify things. We're only consider 2 players, and we're consider a raid where 10 items drop, each with a 10% chance. Player A is poorly geared and is along for his first raid. He will get an upgrade from all 10 items. Player B is well geared and an established part of the guild. Only one of the 10 items is an upgrade for him. He'll pass on the others.
Expected number of upgrades for player A = 0.1 * 9 + 0.1 / 2 = 0.95
Player A will receive on average one upgrade per raid.
Expected number of upgrades for player B = 0.1 / 2 = 0.05
Player B will have to raid 20 times to get any sort of upgrade.
Is that fair?
If we introduce DKP, then player A will still get more upgrades - but at least the gap will be smaller, and player B will be certain to get his item if it drops.
It may suck to see some new guy get a sweet item on their first raid and then leave, but they were there for the kill and I see no reason to exclude them from a chance, no matter how big or small. Look at it from the other persons point of view. They show up to help you out and your opinion is they should not have any chance at loot due to events that happened in the past.
I bet that throughout the history of your raid, that weapon had already been upgraded half a dozen times by those people who felt cheated and soon enough they will all be looking at another sweet weapon. No one item is that big of a deal.
As to the fairness of a dkp system, it doesn't take long for players to learn how to micromanage a dkp system and hold onto top slots or simply over volume new players to the point where they can only get table scraps. Be it inflation, under/over valuing items, secret agreements on item bids between players, hording points or any number of other measures that typically screw up a dkp system. I've seen dkp systems kill raids, because of the flaws in the system. On paper they sounds great, but in practice most do end up that way. They can easily end up hurting raids more than it helps and is usually defended by those who benefit the most from it even though it is killing the raid.
Your math example is a little over generalized. For example if someone only needs 1 out of those 10 items, then odds are they got the other 9 already from the raid. If player B gets 9/10 of the items then they need to have a little responsibility and pass to player A on the 10th item. That is why a little open discussion can be helpful.
No system is perfect and trying to force a numerical system of fairness is going to be next to impossible. The problem with dkp systems is they take the responsibility away from players and wrap it up in a system that is easily abused.